new member

[[Be...]]

Hi all: Watched the titration video on Youtube, which was helpful...

However, I'm still a bit unclear on exactly how this works.

Do you crush all 3 benzos ( my daily dose) in milk and put them into the 100ml cylinder, then remove the 1ml and divide the remaining benzo milk into 3 doses throughout the day?

Then continue the following day reducing 2ml and so on?

I'm still not shooting on all cylinders so bear with me!

Songwriter007

 

When you post a request for a titration schedule and give the info. needed (like starting dose, dose schedule, strength of tablets), you'll get instructions ,for how to use the schedule.  What you've described does sound like the general idea, though.  I think your cylinders are firing just fine. 

[[Be...]]

Here's the deal....I'm on 2 benzos, and it's been recommended taper off the Ativan as it has a shorter half life...however, that's the dose .5  that I take before bed, and I've been sleeping well, after a disasterous unintended withdrawal before Christmas.

Perhaps I should switch my Ativan .5 at night over to Clonzapam .25 then start with a tirtration schedule for the 3 equal doses? Since Clonazapam has a longer half life, it may smooth things out being on one benzo....I've had some depersonalization during the day, and maybe it's because of the shorter half life of the Ativan.

Hope I'm not splitting hairs here, but knowledge is power.

Songwriter007

 

I haven't kept track of what you are taking when but .5 mg ativan is about equivalent to .25mg clono., so switching to just clono and replacing your evening ativan with .25mg clono, sounds like a plan.    Once you do that, it's probably a good idea to wait at least a week before starting to reduce your daily dose of clono. just to make sure your body had adjusted to the change.  Does that make sense?

[[so...]]

Yes, Beeper, this sounds logical to me to switch over to Clonaz. from the Ativan for the nightime dose. May even smooth out the spacey depersonalization I have mid afternoon, perhaps due to the shorter Ativan halflife during the night?

My goal is to have 1 benzo, and titrate 3 equal doses and reduce by 1 or 2 ml per day.

Sounds like a plan...

 

 

[[so...]]

I'd like to have a titration schedule however, I'm still on the 2 benzos.

Can this be done with the 2 benzos?

 

Here's the doseage

.25 Clonazapam morn. 9:30am

.25 Clonazapam supper 600pm

.5 Ativan bedtime (equv. to .25 Clon.)

 

I was advised to start reducing the Ativan first, however that's my bedtime dose, and I don't want to disrupt my sleep by having a reduced dose at bedtime.

 

Has anyone crossed over from Ativan to Clonazapam? Since the Clonazapam has a longer half life it seems logical that it would be ok, however I just read of someone having a difficult time crossing over from Clonaz. to Valium.

 

Therefore, I could crush .75 Clonazapam into the 100ml cylinder, and divide into 3 daily doses...

Does this sound reasonable?

Thanks

Songwriter007

[[Th...]]

I'd like to have a titration schedule however, I'm still on the 2 benzos.

Can this be done with the 2 benzos?

 

I've never seen it done with two benzos.

 

Has anyone crossed over from Ativan to Clonazapam? Since the Clonazapam has a longer half life it seems logical that it would be ok, however I just read of someone having a difficult time crossing over from Clonaz. to Valium.

 

There are a few that have. I can not think who they are at this moment. Clonazepam takes a few days to build up in the body, so there may be a little adjustment. Some have problems crossing over to Valium from another benzo, but I have not heard of anyone having trouble crossing to Clonazepam other than a few days of adjustment.

 

Therefore, I could crush .75 Clonazapam into the 100ml cylinder, and divide into 3 daily doses...

Does this sound reasonable?

 

If you want to do a titration based on .75mg taken daily divided into 3 doses, it is recommended that you use a full 1.0mg tablet (or two .50mgs) to crush and Colin would prepare you a schedule that would start you at .75mg and reduce from there. Here is the link to what is needed by Colin...http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11093.msg150014#msg150014 and you need to post your information with your request for a schedule on the Titration Tapers board found here.... http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=62.0

 

 

edited by adding.. (two .50mgs)

[[so...]]

Hi All: just curious if Colin is around, as I posted a question on being on 2 benzos....

I'm considering to switch from my one nightly dose of Ativan .5 (aprx .25 clonz)  and then setting up a titration schedule for my 3 daily doses....

I've just made a cut yesterday from .3125 down to .25 for my supper dose.

If I combined my 3 doses into a titration schedule I could streamline my 3 doses evenly....

Until then, I'm still dry cutting, which will get tricky when I get down below 1/4 of a .05 clonz. pill.

Any thoughts.

Songwriter007

[[Th...]]

Hi All: just curious if Colin is around, as I posted a question on being on 2 benzos....

I'm considering to switch from my one nightly dose of Ativan .5 (aprx .25 clonz)  and then setting up a titration schedule for my 3 daily doses....

I've just made a cut yesterday from .3125 down to .25 for my supper dose.

If I combined my 3 doses into a titration schedule I could streamline my 3 doses evenly....

Until then, I'm still dry cutting, which will get tricky when I get down below 1/4 of a .05 clonz. pill.

Any thoughts.

Songwriter007

 

He was on here late last night to post some schedules. He probably missed your question due to where you posted it. You are suppose to start your own thread on the titration taper board (http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=62.0) if you want to titrate and have titration questions. I do not know when he will be back, I never really know when he'll pop in. I have already given you my opinion on the above, so maybe others will too since you asked it again.

 

T2

[[Co...]]

Hi Songwriter,

 

Switching your night time dose of Ativan to Clonazepam sounds like a good plan to me. Because of individual variability, in your shoes, I'd powder 0.25mg of Clonazepam in a glass of milk, and drink just a quarter of the liquid. I'd also make up a second glass of milk with powdered 0.5mg Ativan and drink three-quarters of the liquid. Do this for a week or as long as you feel reasonable. Then, I'd do similarly with the Clonazepam and Ativan liquids for another week (or whatever amount of time you feel reasonable), but drink half of each liquid. Then, another week of three-quarters of a glass of Clonazpam and a quarter glass of Ativan. And then, a final week of stabilising on 0.25mg Clonazepam three times a day. Switching from one benzo to another always should be carried out gradually.

 

Once you have switched over, I will draw up a titration schedule for you based upon whatever taper rate you require.

 

Good luck.

[[so...]]

Hi Folks: I thought I had posted the question for Colin on the link for titration, however, my computer skills are still a bit out of whack, as I've just made another cut and perhaps it wasn't in the right place. I will use the link you supplied Teresa, Thankyou.

 

My lastest cut has been from .3125 down to .25, with a bit of stomach overactivity, but other than that pretty smooth...

 

Thanks  Colin,  the recommendation for switching benzos sounds like an excellent idea, to gradually cross over... I've read some unsavoury stories of people switching benzos and going into withdrawal on one while switching over to another, mainly from Clonazapam to Valium...

 

Once I get switched over to 3 doses of Clon. I can start a titration on 1 benzo!

 

Once again, Thankyou for you recommendation!

Kind Regards,

Songwriter007

 

[[so...]]

Hi Teresa: I'm not sure how to set up a new thread on the titration board when I highlight the link you provided in your response?

Like I mentioned, I'm a bit foggy, and want to adhere to the proticol.

Songwriter007

[[Th...]]

Hi Teresa: I'm not sure how to set up a new thread on the titration board when I highlight the link you provided in your response?

Like I mentioned, I'm a bit foggy, and want to adhere to the proticol.

Songwriter007

 

Well, since you are not ready for a schedule yet, you may want to wait and keep posting here. When you are ready, just go to the link I gave you which is called the Titration Taper board and click "new topic" and name your thread in the subject line and then type your message and then click "post".

[[so...]]

Thanks Teresa: will do that, and first things first with switching to the one benzo...

 

I had no idea how many people who have been prescribed Benzos to sleep, and have reached Tolerance, and now are having withdrawal affects...They have no idea what has been going on, and I've mentioned quotes out of the Ashton manual about tolerance...

 

I have one friend in England, who is experiencing terrible heart burn, :'( and nothing seems to be helping her....I suggested that it could be the overactivity of the central nervous system in the gut, as stated by Ashton under gastro problems. I also suggested that she bring this up with her GP and consider a taper from the benzos, as they obviously are no longer doing their job.

 

Another friend is and elderly gentleman I know, who has been on 1 mg of Ativan to sleep for over 4 months and now  is not sleeping, and having terrible gastro problems as well....He's been beside himself, and I suggested it could be  benzo related, and to consult his G. P. about a taper off as well.

 

Anyhow, Thanks once again everyone for your support!

Kindly,

Songwriter007

 

[[Lo...]]

Hey songwriter,

Yes, the exact thing that a person goes on a benzo for can become worse over time! Your best friend becomes your worst enemy! I didn't have any GI/IBS problems before I ever went on the klonopin. I wonder how much IBS, reflux, insomnia, etc. is due to benzos??!! Afterall, 61 million prescriptions a year are written for benzos! What a money making industry benzos are!! Your new tapering plan sounds like a good one. Stay strong....

 

Lori

[[so...]]

Yes Lori, I agree.  Here are a few things I found to ease the stomach/overactive nervous GABA receptors:

Eating a banana and piece of toast before bed...

Chamomile and Mint tea, also Ginger tea made from boiling pieces of raw ginger and steeping.

When things get rough,  heating pad on the stomach, may just be the soothing element, but if it works

I am staying away from lots of milk, as I've heard it dosen't help acid production.

I went on Pantoloc (similar to Nexium) which reduces the production of acid produced in the stomach ( took over 10 days to kick in but seems to be helping.

I'm trying to stay away from antacids as I don't want to have a buildup of what's in them...they can also loose their effectiveness over time, if used continuously.

Since you are off the Benzos, slowering your tapering wouldn't help, but it was suggested to me, and is an indicator if I'm going too fast.

How are you GI symtoms now, and are you having any other symtoms after your taper?

Hope this helps.

Songwriter007

 

[[Lo...]]

Hey songwriter,

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have not tried a banana and toast before bed, but worth a shot. I am allergic to ragweed, so Chamomile and Sleepytime Tea are out!! My GI symptoms have calmed down a lot in the past 5 days or so. I find that if I get bloated after a meal, one Gas-X seems to help. As far as what other withdrawal symptoms am I having.....panic, panic attacks, a ton of anxiety, shortness of breath (hyperventilation), trouble sleeping, a floodgate of emotions that were surpressed for 7 years has opened and having to deal with them.....just a ton of fun!! Not sure which is worse, the physical or the emotional part of all of this. How are you doing??

 

Lori

[[so...]]

I am feeling much better these days, as I feel I'm moving in the right direction. I have had some excellent suggestions from various people that have helped me make some decisions about how I will continue with my tapering plan. Saw my Doc today, and he is pleased I'm making progress. I still have some time to go before I'm off the benzos, but I found that having a counseller to air my fears has been invaluable. Like I mentioned in earlier posts mistakenly stopped Ativan back in December, and had to go back on Clonazapam to stablize. I've had to do a crash course in Benzos, but now have a good grasp on the subject. I am working at not obsessing about all of this, and look for postive things to keep me distracted.

One of my concerns is about protracted symptoms carrying on after my taper. Mainly depression and anxiety.

I travel a great deal with my work and don't want to be having a melt down when I am away.

Anyhow, hope you are finding some relief from your symptoms!

Keep us Posted!

Songwriter007

 

[[so...]]

Hi Everyone: I was curious if Ativan has a more sedative affect than Clonazapam?

Reason being I'm converting my nightime dose of Ativan to Clonazapam, but have been sleeping well with the Ativan before bed.

Thanks

Songwriter007

[[Th...]]

Hi Everyone: I was curious if Ativan has a more sedative affect than Clonazapam?

Reason being I'm converting my nightime dose of Ativan to Clonazapam, but have been sleeping well with the Ativan before bed.

Thanks

Songwriter007

 

Hi Songwriter007,

 

Ativan may be faster acting so may feel more sedating. Clonazepam is also prescribed for insomnia. Benzos should not be prescribed as a sleep aid to begin with as it does not promote "normal" sleep. Here is an excerpt from The Ashton Manual regarding benzos and insomnia....

Insomnia, nightmares, sleep disturbance. The sleep engendered by benzodiazepines, though it may seem refreshing at first, is not a normal sleep. Benzodiazepines inhibit both dreaming sleep (rapid eye movement sleep, REMS) and deep sleep (slow wave sleep, SWS). The extra sleep time that benzodiazepines provide is spent mainly in light sleep, termed Stage 2 sleep. REM and SWS are the two most important stages of sleep and are essential to health. Sleep deprivation studies show that any deficit is quickly made up by a rebound to above normal levels as soon as circumstances permit.

 

In regular benzodiazepine users REMS and SWS tend to return to pre-drug levels (because of tolerance) but the initial deficit remains. On withdrawal, even after years of benzodiazepine use, there is a marked rebound increase in REMS which also becomes more intense. As a result, dreams become more vivid, nightmares may occur and cause frequent awakenings during the night. This is a normal reaction to benzodiazepine withdrawal and, though unpleasant, it is a sign that recovery is beginning to take place. When the deficit of REMS is made up, usually after about 4-6 weeks, the nightmares become less frequent and gradually fade away.

 

Return of SWS seems to take longer after withdrawal, probably because anxiety levels are high, the brain is overactive and it is hard to relax completely. Subjects may have difficulty in getting off to sleep and may experience "restless legs syndrome", sudden muscle jerks (myoclonus) just as they are dropping off or be jolted suddenly by a hallucination of a loud bang (hypnagogic hallucination) which wakes them up again. These disturbances may also last for several weeks, sometimes months.

 

However, all these symptoms do settle in time. The need for sleep is so powerful that normal sleep will eventually reassert itself. Meanwhile, attention to sleep hygiene measures including avoiding tea, coffee, other stimulants or alcohol near bedtime, relaxation tapes, anxiety management techniques and physical exercise may be helpful. Taking all or most of the dose of benzodiazepine at night during the reduction period may also help. Occasionally another drug might be indicated (see section on adjuvant drugs, below).

 

T2

[[so...]]

Hi: I am curious how intense the withdrawal symptoms will be after a slow 10% per week taper off the Clonazapam...

 

In Canada we have .25 tablets which can be cut in quarters down to .0625 which is my current taper rate... I currently not noticing any significant symtoms after cuts, which is good...slight dsyphoria, and some now minor GI problems...

 

However, when I'm at the end (after titration at a lower amount) since Clono. is so potent, will it take a while to dislodge the drug even after a slow reduction in the system?

By the way Thanks Theresa once again for the additonal information....Every bit helps me get a grip on this process!!!

 

Thanks

Songwriter007

 

 

[[Th...]]

Hi: I am curious how intense the withdrawal symptoms will be after a slow 10% per week taper off the Clonazapam...

 

It is so different for everyone, I wish I had a better answer. 

 

In Canada we have .25 tablets which can be cut in quarters down to .0625 which is my current taper rate... I currently not noticing any significant symtoms after cuts, which is good...slight dsyphoria, and some now minor GI problems...

 

That is great that you have access to the smaller tablets. The smaller you can cut, the chances are better of minimizing w/d s/x!

 

However, when I'm at the end (after titration at a lower amount) since Clono. is so potent, will it take a while to dislodge the drug even after a slow reduction in the system?

 

Here is an excerpt from The Ashton Manual regarding benzos in the body....

 

How long do benzodiazepines stay in the body after withdrawal? This question is often asked by people with long-term symptoms. Is it possible that one cause of protracted symptoms is that benzodiazepines remain in the body even after months, lurking perhaps deep in such tissues as brain and bones? Could slow elimination from these sites keep the withdrawal symptoms going?

 

Like many other issues concerning benzodiazepines, the answers to these questions are still unclear. Benzodiazepine concentrations in the blood have been measured and shown to reach undetectable levels in 3-4 weeks after cessation of use in people withdrawn from clinical doses. Information on benzodiazepine concentrations in the brain and other tissues is difficult to obtain, especially in humans. Benzodiazepines certainly enter the brain and also dissolve in all fatty (lipid-containing) tissues including fat deposits all over the body. It is possible that they linger in such tissues for some time after blood levels have become undetectable. However, most body tissues are in equilibrium with the blood that constantly perfuses them, and there is no known mechanism whereby benzodiazepines could be "locked up" in tissues such as the brain. There is no data on how long benzodiazepines remain in bones, which have a lower fat content but also a slower rate of cell turnover.

 

Nevertheless, the concentration of benzodiazepines remaining in body tissues after withdrawal must be very low, otherwise the drugs would leak back into the blood in discernible amounts. It is difficult to imagine that such concentrations would be sufficient to produce clinical effects or that any direct effects could last for months or years. However, it is not inconceivable that even low concentrations might be enough to prevent the return of GABA/benzodiazepine receptors in the brain to their pre-benzodiazepine state. If so, the receptors would continue to be resistant to the natural calming actions of GABA (See Chapter I), and the effect could be to prolong the state of nervous system hyperexcitability. Possible factors contributing to protracted symptoms are outlined in Table 4.

 

 

[[re...]]

Hi: I am curious how intense the withdrawal symptoms will be after a slow 10% per week taper off the Clonazapam...

 

It is so different for everyone, I wish I had a better answer. 

 

In Canada we have .25 tablets which can be cut in quarters down to .0625 which is my current taper rate... I currently not noticing any significant symtoms after cuts, which is good...slight dsyphoria, and some now minor GI problems...

 

That is great that you have access to the smaller tablets. The smaller you can cut, the chances are better of minimizing w/d s/x!

 

However, when I'm at the end (after titration at a lower amount) since Clono. is so potent, will it take a while to dislodge the drug even after a slow reduction in the system?

 

Here is an excerpt from The Ashton Manual regarding benzos in the body....

 

How long do benzodiazepines stay in the body after withdrawal? This question is often asked by people with long-term symptoms. Is it possible that one cause of protracted symptoms is that benzodiazepines remain in the body even after months, lurking perhaps deep in such tissues as brain and bones? Could slow elimination from these sites keep the withdrawal symptoms going?

 

Like many other issues concerning benzodiazepines, the answers to these questions are still unclear. Benzodiazepine concentrations in the blood have been measured and shown to reach undetectable levels in 3-4 weeks after cessation of use in people withdrawn from clinical doses. Information on benzodiazepine concentrations in the brain and other tissues is difficult to obtain, especially in humans. Benzodiazepines certainly enter the brain and also dissolve in all fatty (lipid-containing) tissues including fat deposits all over the body. It is possible that they linger in such tissues for some time after blood levels have become undetectable. However, most body tissues are in equilibrium with the blood that constantly perfuses them, and there is no known mechanism whereby benzodiazepines could be "locked up" in tissues such as the brain. There is no data on how long benzodiazepines remain in bones, which have a lower fat content but also a slower rate of cell turnover.

 

Nevertheless, the concentration of benzodiazepines remaining in body tissues after withdrawal must be very low, otherwise the drugs would leak back into the blood in discernible amounts. It is difficult to imagine that such concentrations would be sufficient to produce clinical effects or that any direct effects could last for months or years. However, it is not inconceivable that even low concentrations might be enough to prevent the return of GABA/benzodiazepine receptors in the brain to their pre-benzodiazepine state. If so, the receptors would continue to be resistant to the natural calming actions of GABA (See Chapter I), and the effect could be to prolong the state of nervous system hyperexcitability. Possible factors contributing to protracted symptoms are outlined in Table 4.

 

 

 

Hi Song,

 

all of us are different, some have more or less withdrawls, so there is no real way of predicting how you'll feel. I am happy that so far your cuts are treating you well, take care.

[[so...]]

Hi Again: Thanks T2 for the Ashton quotes...I've made a point of reading the entire Ashton Manual, so basically  it varies for everyone...I'm tapering VERY slowly, as this seems to allow my  body to adjust to the smaller level of Benzo in my body....The whole lingering in the fat tissues, makes me a bit uneasy, however, it seems that over time, the body will heal itself.

 

I've only been on the Clonazapam for less than 8 wks, however it's long enough to accumulate, but perhaps not as complex as some who have been on it  for years...Last year, it was only 1 mg of Ativan that threw me into a horrible withdrawal back in December...

 

I think what has been helping is that I've quit smoking, alcohol and coffee,  and Primarily after researching all the Symptoms of Benzos have developed a postive attitude about eliminating this drug from my system. When symptoms now arise, KNOWING what they are helps passing through them...Knowledge is POWER!

 

I've discussed the dangers of Benzos with a few other friends who are going through similar experiences and they want to  make the public more aware of the havoc that this drug can cause...One person I know, is now considering contacting a  major newspaper,  Why not??...Also Warning labels on the bottles to NOT STOP ABRUPTLY. My acid reflux med carries this warning but not the Clonazapam!!!

 

I think this forum is Excellent, however, a lot of the public and people who unwittingly become hooked on Benzos are unaware of their dangers. I certainly was, and had to go through the most terrifying experience of my life.

 

 

 

So on a lighter note,  I'd be interested to  hear from those who have done a taper, and what they have experienced or are experiencing now post Benzofree...

Thanks for sharing!

 

Songwriter007

[[Be...]]

Songwriter007

 

Most of the early stories on the Success Story board are from members who tapered off some time ago and reported back.  You will find a variety of experiences there but they all ended in eventual success.

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=89.0

[[so...]]

Thanks Beeper: It was interesting reading the post benzo stories...

How was your post taper experience?

 

Also, I read something by Reg Hart that it's not advisable to direct taper off Clonazapam, however I'm sure many have, as long as it's gradual ( within the 10% 1-2wk reduction) I don't really want to do the crossover to Valium at this point....

 

I'm hoping that a gradual taper will  help minimalize  post taper symptoms, 

 

Also it was interesting that everyone I talked at the time, couldn't believe I could go into withdrawal from 1 mg of Ativan taken on and off over 4-6 months....Looking back I was going through mini withdrawals when I discontinued for a couple of days, then would go back on, and take myself out of it...

I had no idea what was happening, and thought the Ativan was the hero! Little did I know it was causing the problem!

Regards,

SW

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[Be...]]

Thanks Beeper: It was interesting reading the post benzo stories...

How was your post taper experience?

  It's a little long to go into detail but in general I had the usual ups and downs.  The first 3 weeks after I was off, I continued to feel the same as when I was tapering but then started getting windows for hours at a time.  Now have a "spasm" of symptoms is the exception rather than the rule. 

Also, I read something by Reg Hart that it's not advisable to direct taper off Clonazapam, however I'm sure many have, as long as it's gradual ( within the 10% 1-2wk reduction) I don't really want to do the crossover to Valium at this point....

 

I'm hoping that a gradual taper will  help minimalize  post taper symptoms, 

I'm not familiar with Reg Hart but, yes, many here have tapered successfully of klonopin by dry cutting with or without using titration for the last little bit.  In fact, in the US, some doctors will have their patients switch to klonopin from their shorter-acting benzo in order to taper more easily. On another board I joined before I found BenzoBuddies told me I could never taper off lorazepam (ativan) directly because of it's short half-life.  And xanax is even shorter acting than ativan and we've had many successful direct tapers off it as well.  Determination, support and a positive attitude all play a part in getting free.

Also it was interesting that everyone I talked at the time, couldn't believe I could go into withdrawal from 1 mg of Ativan taken on and off over 4-6 months....Looking back I was going through mini withdrawals when I discontinued for a couple of days, then would go back on, and take myself out of it...

I had no idea what was happening, and thought the Ativan was the hero! Little did I know it was causing the problem!

Regards,

SW

 

 

This is a very common story, SW.  That's why this forum is so important; only those who have been there can truly understand.