Liquid Valium

[[Ge...]]

Hi Spatler... you are at the point I asked the pharmacist for help.  They said the problem with the varying pill amounts allowed for generic manufacturing was not between 'pills' in the same script refill.. but between batches of pills in different scripts (thought it appears you picked up on another variable?)... I made sure to have enough of a script left so that I staggered the new with the old.. one new, one old for the first two weeks of the next rotation in the med minder, or half of whatever the rotation was... I tried to cut on a 3 week.. then 4 week rotation cycle... meaning that for a 1 mg cut, I took 3 weeks.. then 4 weeks... and for a .5 mg cut, same, first 3 weeks, then lengthening to 4. 

 

On the last forum, this was deemed an unnecessary precaution, but it always felt better to me to proceed this way.

 

Georgie

[[sp...]]

Hi Spatler... you are at the point I asked the pharmacist for help.  They said the problem with the varying pill amounts allowed for generic manufacturing was not between 'pills' in the same script refill.. but between batches of pills in different scripts (thought it appears you picked up on another variable?)... I made sure to have enough of a script left so that I staggered the new with the old.. one new, one old for the first two weeks of the next rotation in the med minder, or half of whatever the rotation was... I tried to cut on a 3 week.. the 4 week rotation cycle... meaning that for a 1 mg cut, I took 3 weeks.. then 4 weeks... and for a .5 mg cut, same, first 3 weeks, then lengthening to 4. 

 

Georgie

 

Yes, my data is within batch...the weight of one pill to the next.  I'm guessing IVAX pays more attention to the D accuracy than the filler, but who really knows.  All we can control is make what they give us as accurate as possible.

[[Ge...]]

Yes, my data is within batch...the weight of one pill to the next.  I'm guessing IVAX pays more attention to the D accuracy than the filler, but who really knows.  All we can control is make what they give us as accurate as possible.

 

Yup, as you are aware..

 

In support of micro tapering.. it's still hard for me to believe that holding a dry cut for one or two days longer reduced and eliminated symptoms that were starting to emerge... eg., going from an 18 day to 20 and then 21 day hold time for a .5 mg cut at 8.5 mgs d, 8 mgs, and then 7.5 meant wiping out the 3 day stint of symptoms that had started to emerge.  While this was not micro tapering, the small differences in the amount of cut times would support the efficacy of micro cuts IMHO.

 

Georgie

[[Fl...]]

HI Georgie

I think Flip is referring to Roxane Brand Liquid Valium which comes in a 5mg:5ml strength which equates to a 1:1 dilution.  Perfect for calculating cuts and diluting with water.

 

Fiip from reading your signature it appears you have had a rough time getting to where you are.  Congratulations on being in the final 2 mgs.    I was tapering at .02mg at 2mgs.  I was also using ALL liquid as I felt liquid was more accurate at this low of a dose.  I read somewhere that the pills can "legally" be off to a certain amount and since I could only tolerate .020mg a day cut I was not in for any more inaccuracies.

 

While my Dr was on board for titration and even recommended it he really had no idea about cuts.  I found a post over at BDR that really summed up how I wanted to taper so I printed it out and took it to him for his review. I think its a great explanation of "THE REAL PROBLEM" where benzos are concerned.  You can read it here http://www.benzodetoxrecovery.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=603

 

It really explains why we need to listen to our bodies and let our symptom levels be our guide as the how we are responding to the cuts we are making.  Its important that your Dr support you in a method that promotes your body to heal as you taper.  Who cares how long it takes to taper if you are relatively comfortable and if you step off in good shape.

 

So try cutting .020mg for 10 days to 2 weeks and see how you feel.  You may not initially feel any great relief but many do as they move along.  Its almost like these small cuts actually "nudge" the receptors to up regulate and then we begin to feel relief.  If your symptoms really spike then you drop it down and go from there. 

 

All my best

Mimi

 

Thanks Mimi, (and Georgie)

 

Yes, the liquid is Roche 5mg:5ml. The .02 mg cuts seem fairly easy to accomplish, even though I have to get my magnifying eye glasses out. My syringe is a 1 mg with incremental markings of 10 and smaller markings of 10 between each .1 mg. So that would be .01 mg increments.  The .01 increments involve some guesswork as the casing is orange and I cannot tell with visual certainty if I'm on the .01, .02 or even .03 mark.  I guessed yesterday that I was at .98 on my liquid dose.

 

Here is my question. I have about half of a bottle of 500 ml liquid left.  I've been pouring a small amount into a pimento jar and dispensing from there. If I put 5 ml into the jar and added 5 ml of water, then each .1 diluted amount would really contain .05 Valium. Is this right? I quickly get confused. What would be the right amount of water to add to 1 ml concentrate to dilute to .02 or even .015. Used to be good at math. These days it's cumbersome.

 

I have about 25 tablets left (2 mg). There is one refill of 60 tablets.  As I said, I have about 250 ml of liquid. Plus or minus 10%. Actually it seems I have enough to do the full taper if I combine the two, doesn't it? I may not need to ask for more liquid.

 

The main thing I need help with is diluting so the liquid can be more accurately measured.

Thanks so much,

Flip

[[Ge...]]

Hi Flip.. you do have a goodly stash of the liquid suspension    Hmmm, Mimi will know more, but that is a good way to the finish line, if not all the way!!

 

Regarding syringes.. there is info on a recommended type earlier in this thread.  One of the references is cut and pasted below.  One person tried to order them online, and was told she needed a docs script.. if this is so, yours might help with this? In any case, the post about them, sans the pic of the syringe follows:

 

mtmimi

Syringes

I bought the BD Luer Lok Syringes 100ml.  I liked these as they have a wider outer barrel that acts as a magnifying glass to help see the lines. I will copy image below.  It is important to get familiar with the syringe.  Each large line =.1ml. (10 in total)  Each tiny line=.01ml. (100 in total)  The will have varying values depending on how you dilute your valium.  (FYI order some 10ml syringes for when you get to lower doses and want dilute your entire dose IE no pills) Its a good idea to put tape over the lines as they do rub off with use.

 

[[sp...]]

In support of micro tapering.. it's still hard for me to believe that holding a dry cut for one or two days longer reduced and eliminated symptoms that were starting to emerge... eg., going from an 18 day to 20 and then 21 day hold time for a .5 mg cut at 8.5 mgs d, 8 mgs, and then 7.5 meant wiping out the 3 day stint of symptoms that had started to emerge.  While this was not micro tapering, the small differences in the amount of cut times would support the efficacy of micro cuts IMHO.

 

Georgie

 

Yes.  They pay great attention to the step size as well as the rate.  Many even dose V twice a day to further reduce blood spikes.  I have started doing this.  You may be a special case Georgie.  Keep going if it works for you!  Micro cutting is certainly not for convenience 

[[mt...]]

Hi Spatler,

It may take a few weeks to feel some relief after you begin to taper. I am sure how long you have been tapering with daily cuts and what rate you are using but if you do not feel some relief within 10days to  2 weeks I would reduce the cut and go a bit slower.  I was not concerned with the size of pills but with the amount of filler and valium in each.  As you get lower and lower you will want to move to all liquid as the pills become harder and harder to split accurately.

 

What scale would you rate your symptom level 1-10 (10 being the worse).  Base this on your entire taper experience.  Begin to track this each day and see if you can over the next few weeks begin to see them decrease.  If not reconsider your cut rate. 

 

My symptoms were mostly emotional.  I had a lot of catatrosphic thinking and negativity.  However I was thrilled I did not have insomnia or anxiety.  For me those were unacceptable and the second they raised their ugly heads I slowed down or held for a few days.

 

It may take a few weeks of tapering slowing to turn things around.  Juat keep an eye out for things getting worse and slow down if that is the case.

 

Mimi 

[[Ge...]]

Sheesh, another error post... my sincere apologies, I usually don't make this sort of mistake.. at the computer too long methinks. 

[[Ge...]]

This post was an error...

[[Ge...]]

I was not concerned with the size of pills but with the amount of filler and valium in each. 

Mimi

 

Spatler.. this is what my pharmacist told me.. the concentration of diazepam, not the filler, is different between scripts (as allowed by law).  Even if you keep to the same generic company, the concentration varies between batches.  Between pills in the same refill the difference in the amount of diazepam is negligible, even if the amount of filler varies. 

 

I think you will start to feel better in the time frame that Mimi is referring to.. And I also agree with Mimi that insomnia would have been a deal breaker for me, ugh, and out of control restless legs caused same.  Slleeepppp, Blessed slleeeppppp.

 

Budgie told me to go a tad slower.. by taking the standard 2 weeks for cuts.. but I did not want to go slower than needed,  and I found that just  taking a cumulative day or two longer per cut cycle made enough of a difference. I don't think I'm the exception in this regard, more that people are discouraged from making adjustments this small because they are considered too insignificant.  By my way of thinking, although I'm not dosing twice a day, or taking tiny micro cuts... the small adjustments I made between 13 and 5.5 mgs D were equivalent to the micro cuts.  They were just not with a liquid.  But the basic principle is similar.. going down by very very small levels, and avoiding benzo withdrawal symptoms, and consequently some of the kindling effect one can build in withdrawal by activating GABA needlessly.  In your case, adjusting the time to allow a very sensitive system time to let the GABA reset.

 

Georgie

 

PS.. Mimi, I think you are dubious, but please consider, I believe in what you are doing because the tiny increments did make a difference.  You just offer a more complete and refined package.. Hurrah for this! YES.. 

 

 

[[he...]]

Mimi,

 

Thank you for your suggestion of the log.  I am wondering about the connection between hormones and symptoms as this whole time I have been contending with menopause and hot flashes at night associated with it.  That's why I took sleeping pills to begin with!  I had to go on bioidentical hormones so that the flashes would stop and I could sleep!  Could this be a factor as to why it is taking so long for me to taper?

 

Thank you!

[[mt...]]

HI Healthy

You should check out Perseverance's blog as she write quite a bit about the Hormone connection and Benzo withdrawal. There has also been alot of talk on the Post Benzo Freedom Blog. Apparently progesterone plays a big part and can definately cause symptom fluctuations.  I am not of any real help as this was not a concern for me.  I would post on Perseverance's blog and ask her for some insight on how you can manage your hormones while tapering.  I can point some others to you for some guidance as well.

 

Georgie....what do you mean by dubious?

[[he...]]

Thank you Mimi....I will do that!

[[sp...]]

It may take a few weeks to feel some relief after you begin to taper. I am sure how long you have been tapering with daily cuts and what rate you are using but if you do not feel some relief within 10days to  2 weeks I would reduce the cut and go a bit slower.

 

It's good to hear a timeframe Mimi.  Jana has been sick and we still have not connected except for her telling me my 0.015mg/day cut should be fine for now.  I've made 6 reductions so far.

 

I was not concerned with the size of pills but with the amount of filler and valium in each.  As you get lower and lower you will want to move to all liquid as the pills become harder and harder to split accurately.

 

Isn't the V spread evenly in the filler?  You seem to be saying the pill weight is not related to the V?  If there is a 5% difference in weight, is there not a 5% difference in V?  I'm confused.

 

Regarding pill splitting, yeah...I've been wondering how the 3's and 1's get handled.  Also, the high fractions (0.9, 0.8, etc)...how does this much liquid get measured accurately?

 

What scale would you rate your symptom level 1-10 (10 being the worse).

 

Great minds think alike!  I've been using a simple 1-10 scale also, for the past year or so...I'm always between 4 and 6 with some 7's and 3's thrown in.  Haven't had any 8's or 9's for many months, and never had a 10 (symptom free).  Living in the 8-10 world would be outstanding!

 

My symptoms were mostly emotional.  I had a lot of catatrosphic thinking and negativity.  However I was thrilled I did not have insomnia or anxiety.  For me those were unacceptable and the second they raised their ugly heads I slowed down or held for a few days.

 

Sounds similar.  Insomnia is really a bad one for me too, along with emotional blunting...can't and don't want to communicate with people, esp the family.  It's awful.

 

Thank you Mimi.  You can't imagine how much your help means to me.  I still have many months ahead and being comfortable is incredibly important.

 

spatler

[[JO...]]

Hi All,

I had a great visit with my doctor she is so understanding. We talked about my last cut from 5 to 4.5Mg's and how i got slammed and that I wanted to transition over to liquid.

I talked to her about micro cutting and she asked me if i had any information so I gave her a print out that i had brought in. i felt so good that when she said "you may run in to some rough patches as you get lower" the doctor told me she will not write scripts for anyone longer than two weeks for banzais period. She has helped others get off long term Benz use and knows how difficult it is. I told her i wish i had her back in 08 when I didn't know any better and got on this tread mill. Anyway she wants me to cross over to all liquid and wrote me a script so over the next couple of weeks I will drop off the pills . i am so hoping this will help me. She told me just to keep it slow and I will get there so nice to have someone who understands. I took the script in to CVS they had to order it as the pharmacist said they don't normally stock it. So Tomorrow I will start funny tomorrow is my 50 Th birthday maybe my present will be a more tolerable taper .

[[Ge...]]

Good to hear Anton.. and all the best tomorrow.  You have reason to celebrate. 

 

LOL.. have been wanting to use that icon!

 

Georgie

[[JO...]]

Thanks georgie,

I am going up to Sedona fro the weekend and going on a hot air balloon tour of the red rocks . I am excited then will begin micro cutting with the liquid over on Sunday.

Hope you are doing good

Anton

[[Ge...]]

Thanks georgie,

I am going up to Sedona fro the weekend and going on a hot air balloon tour of the red rocks . I am excited then will begin micro cutting with the liquid over on Sunday.

Hope you are doing good

Anton

 

Good for you, a balloon ride.  Always wanted to take one of those, but just never got to it.  I used to live on a farm and hot air balloons would land in the pasture... it was grand to see those things land right next to our dining room window!  Have a great ride.. and enjoy every minute  :balloon:

[[Ge...]]

Georgie....what do you mean by dubious?

 

Oh dear.. maybe I've been a little bit 'sad sack' but it seemed like peeps were not taking my humble attempts at small cuts seriously.  Now that is only my take.. and I'm too sensitive at times, in any case, thought I should let you know what I meant. 

 

And thanks for all the help you are giving here... wow... maybe Anton and Spatler will have some relief soon... way to gooooo. 

 

G.

[[JO...]]

i am so thankful for all your help. It's sounds strange but i already feel a sense of peace after my appt today. I guess my doctor really surprised me today i always knew she was kind but the visit went really well. I was hoping to be done with this taper a long time ago but I have to do this right since I won't be doing it again. I really feel blessed having all you for support and hope i can return the favor.

Anton

[[mt...]]

HI Anton

Its very comforting to have your Dr on board.  One less obstacle.  My dr also had me come in once a month to monitor BP and just to check in.  It was fine and we ended up having many good discussions on how to taper benzos.  I would print up all the research I came across on my journeys through all the various websites.  I know he was grateful and interested on anything I brought along.  We actually talked about me coming on board in his office to help with tapers.  But I am not really an "office" person.

 

 

Glad you are set and ready to move forward!

Mimi

[[...]]

Hi all- just wanted to chime in. I'm at 4mg of Valium and am hoping to try micro tapering with the liquid Valium. I used the liquid for .25 mg dose change when I went from 4.5 to 4.25. I am now just taking 2- 2mg tablets. I hope to transition to just liquid and then start micro tapering. Thought I might try .02 or .03 daily cuts. What is everyone else doing at the 4mg mark? I am having doubts how accurate are the pills and cutting them -so that's why I think I will try using just liquid. I started cutting .25 mg every 2 weeks but it's getting difficult to tolerate the withdrawl symptoms. I do stabilize well but wish to not endure the discomfort for 3-4 days. I hope everyone else has an easier time with the micro tapering.

Mm

 

[[os...]]

Hi mm74, i am losing half a mg over 40 days, so from 4mg to 3.5mg is taking me that long at my current cut, i will probably use the same cut to 3mg and then make a small adjustment and maybe go 50 days to 2.5mg and again to 2mg. I am unsure as to my daily cuts thereafter, at 2mg i am prepared to go as slow as i need to go... but hoping to do the same till 1mg... the time frame is no longer important to me, being well is all that matters now. Mimi would advise far better than me as i am not using Valium liquid but i am titrating a similar benzo, it´s easy to convert but Mimi can give a better advice as to the size of daily cuts.

 

Oscar

[[mt...]]

HI mm74

I posted over on the under 4mgs thread on selecting a cut size.  Glad you are ready to start your taper with daily cuts and hope you will find it is a bit gentler for you.

 

Mimi

[[Pr...]]

Hi All,

Just wanted to update you on my micro taper from 5.5mg to 5mg.  I completed

it in 13 days at a rate of .05 mg of liquid valium per day. Held a couple of days

with just one day I rate at a 5 for how I felt.  For the first time I was able to

get a jog in 3 nites in a row!  I cried with joy after each run because I haven't felt good

enough until now to run let alone walk.  I will hold for a couple of days at 5mg

per day and then begin micro taper again.

Wow, Mimi and all of you have been awesome! I believe this micro taper is the

answer to my prayers.  I am thankful that I got over my fear of writing on this forum!

You have all taken that fear away and replaced it with confidence to ask for help

and even give some myself.  Blessing to all!!!!

Pam