Liquid Valium

[[mt...]]

HI Anton

Once on lower doses I found I had to go to all liquid.  Cutting pills is not always consistent and accurate and I believed as I got lower and lower I was feeling the discrepancies from day to day.

 

I believe that using extremely tiny cuts each day (titration) is easier to tolerate once we get to lower doses.  Its a good idea to taper with cuts that are small enough that we do not need to hold all the time due to increased symptoms.  When symptoms spike it is a "signal" that we have overtapered our bodies ability to meet the loss of benzo in our blood levels. 

 

We heal more efficiently as we taper because the cuts are SO TINY our receptors can "sense" the reduction and respond by up regulating and MATCHING the amount of benzo we dropped.  When the cuts are too large the receptors cannot FULLY respond and Up regulate and we feel symptoms.  Some believe these laps in meeting benzo levels add up and can cause us to crash at a later date.  Finding this "sweet spot" taper rate can be tricky but if we stay in it we can move forward with little symptoms.

 

So for instance (using a 1ml:1mg strength Valium)  at 4mgs of valium I would mix 4mgs of liquid V with 40 ml of water.  Each 10ml now has 1mg of valium in it.  SO each .1 line on a 1ml syringe has .1mg of valium in it.  Since I was reducing at .025mg per day I would remove remove .25ml (2 and 1/2 lines on the 1ml syringe).

 

I now have 3.975mg of valium.  Once you have reduced your cut you can add more liquid (to give you the sensation you are drinking more)

I would then split it up and take half at 11am and half at 11pm. 

 

So next day mix 40ml water with 4mg liquid V and remove .5mg (5 lines on the 1mg syringe).  You are now at 3.95mg of V.  So on and so forth.  At this rate you would drop about .75mg of valium per month.  Once you get to 3mg you mix 3mg of valium with 30 ml of water so on and so forth.

 

Even with titration there were times I held for a few days every now and then just to let my body/brain adjust.  As I got close to 1mg I have to drop my cut t0 .1mg a day and at .50mg I went to .005mg!  I think .005mg is a new all time lowest cut rate.  But guess what I felt great!  I was told by many that this was ridiculous that there was no way this was a "therapeutic" dose but it sure was therapeutic to ME.  (PS Once you get to lower doses like 2 mg you can add even more water to make cuts more accurate and get even smaller cuts.  I can tell you how once you get there!)

 

As long as I listened to my body and did not BULLY it into someone else's schedule I did well.

 

Let me know if this makes sense and if you find any inaccuracies.

All my best!

Mimi

[[he...]]

Hi Miimi,

 

thank you for all of your helpful info.  Can you explain dose splitting?  Is there any reason I should do that?  I don't have any symptoms in between doses.  I'm using extremely small cuts (less than you were!) like .06 every ten days.  Wondering if it would be more effective to try .02 every day or every other day.  Down to 3.34 

 

Thank you!

[[JO...]]

hi mimi,

Sounds like you really did well with this method. i hate to sound dense but why did have to mix water with the liquid. I guess I am a bit confused about that thought the liquid was all ready and all you needed to do was insert the syringe and reduce . i know my doctor will be willing to right the script . i just wanted to make sure I know what to tell her. She always asks me what do you need me to write for? Am just not sure if i were to do the pills and liquid. Really feel bad asking all these questions I just a having such a hard time thinking straight benzo brain. I am hoping to be able to work with Jana too and me she can help me understand too.

[[Ge...]]

hi mimi,

Sounds like you really did well with this method. i hate to sound dense but why did have to mix water with the liquid. I guess I am a bit confused about that thought the liquid was all ready and all you needed to do was insert the syringe and reduce . i know my doctor will be willing to right the script . i just wanted to make sure I know what to tell her. She always asks me what do you need me to write for? Am just not sure if i were to do the pills and liquid. Really feel bad asking all these questions I just a having such a hard time thinking straight benzo brain. I am hoping to be able to work with Jana too and me she can help me understand too.

 

Hi Johan.. You need to reduce by using another liquid because there is no way to make the tiny tiny cuts you need to make with an oral suspension.  With the liquid, 1 mg = 1 ml.. and syringes generally do not measure out in less than .20 mls.  I'm wondering.. have you looked at syringes?  The one that measures 1 ml then break down into .2 ml segments.. and it's diffucult to even guess to the .25 level, though one can get close enough for ordinary tapering.  To make the cuts one would need to gradually reduce with micorcuts over, for say a year, you would be making fairly steady micro reductions.. by .00x, or maybe .000x.

 

btw... have you spoken to your pharmacist yet about the oral suspension doses available to you?  Many pharmacists are only to happy to be asked questions of this sort.  Ive found their feedback to be invaluable.

 

Georgie

 

PS.. starting with the next cut, I'm going to need to proceed at weekly cuts of .125 mgs (this is not a micro cut).. I was a bit agitated this morning.. not by a lot (I had not realized it), but enough so it was noticed. I'm now below 2 mgs, so not surprised.. just don't want to go slower yet so will try this first. 

[[mt...]]

HI Healthy

You don't need to split your dose if you are feeling ok.  For me there were times when I "hit a wall" and had a symptom spike after tapering well for weeks.  I would hold for a few days and then begin again but whie I was holding (and suffering) I would spread out my dose in equal amounts at equal times to get through the day...and it REALLY helped.  Just keep in mind if you hit a rough spot.

 

Another thought is that by keeping the levels in our blood stable (no spikes from taking ALL at once) our receptors are able to "sense" the benzo level drop (from our cut) and UP regulate the receptors to match the cut.  Makes sense but who knows if it is scientifically accurate?

 

Thanks Georgie for the explanation on the benefits of dilution!  I was completely obsessed with mixing and measuring so that all was precise and accurate!

 

Anton  Did you contact oscar to see if he can help get you in touch with Jana??

 

Mimi

[[Ge...]]

HI Healthy

You don't need to split your dose if you are feeling ok.  For me there were times when I "hit a wall" and had a symptom spike after tapering well for weeks.  I would hold for a few days and then begin again but whie I was holding (and suffering) I would spread out my dose in equal amounts at equal times to get through the day...and it REALLY helped.  Just keep in mind if you hit a rough spot.

 

Another thought is that by keeping the levels in our blood stable (no spikes from taking ALL at once) our receptors are able to "sense" the benzo level drop (from our cut) and UP regulate the receptors to match the cut.  Makes sense but who knows if it is scientifically accurate?

 

Thanks Georgie for the explanation on the benefits of dilution!  I was completely obsessed with mixing and measuring so that all was precise and accurate!

 

Anton  Did you contact oscar to see if he can help get you in touch with Jana??

 

Mimi

 

Hi Mimi.. I sure wish a medical person would take enough interest in Jana's method to do more rigorous testing.. aka Ashton style, but that is probably in the realm of 'If wishes were horses.'.

 

You said dosing two times a day is helpful because this keeps a steady blood level.  Do you believe this true for Diazepam as well?  The half life is so long, and on TRAP the consensus was that it did not make any real difference.  I'm wondering because I seem to be getting symptomatic as I've gotten below 2 mgs D.. As in noted in my previous post, I will be taking smaller cuts at weekly intervals.  Hope to be off in June..

 

Thanks for all your  valuable info,

Georgie

[[JO...]]

Hi Georgie,

You are doing great on your taper down to 2 mgs that's the home stretch. I am holding at 4.5 until i see my doctor. The cut down from 5 to 4.5 was the worst in my entire taper . Symptoms didn't come on until about 7-9 days amazing how that happens. Anyway I am doing much better now at 16 days out . If i had the liquid i would consider a .25 mg or less cut but there is no way I am doing .50 again. I was locked in to the wanted to be off by a certain date mentality and it just doesn't work that way. Still hoping to get on board with Jana as she seems to get this and has helped many people out. A lot of her theories make total sense . Hope you are having a good day.

Anton

[[he...]]

Hi everyone...who's Jana?

[[Pr...]]

I too am wondering who Jana is?  I am interested in the daily micro cuts.  It makes

sense and I am starting to struggle with cuts now that I am down to 5.5mg daily. I'm  going to cut Sunday by .25mg rather than .50mg but feel the micro cut after this

next cut may be the way for me to go.

I want to call my Doctor and explain what I want to do but need understanding

myself first.  However, Mimi explained it quite well so maybe I don't need to know

who Jana is.  You are all so wonderful to share your experiences.  Thanks so Much!

Pam

[[mt...]]

HI guys Jana moderates at benzodetoxrecovery.  She developed her own process for titrating benzos.  She is very strict about users using her method and does not like people sharing the details due to it not being used properly and therefore people not being successful.  She likes to work hands on with people using her particular technique.

 

Hope that helps!!

Mimi

[[mt...]]

Hi Pam

WOW I just read your signature.  You Crossed over from 4mgs of Ativan!! And now tapered to 5.5mgs of Valium.  That is just fricking fantastic!!  Let me know if you need any more info...certainly glad to help out any time!  Been there know what you are going through.

 

Getting low in dose is the good and bad news.  SO SO great to be so close to the finish but cuts need to get smaller...for alot of us!  And that can be frustrating as we SO want to be DONE.

 

Glad I was able to shed some light.  I wrote a ton on titration a while back I need to go back and look and see if I can drum up some of it for you all.

 

Hope everyone has a wonderful night of healing peaceful sleep!

Mimi

 

 

[[Pr...]]

Hi Mimi,

Thanks for your words of encouragement!  Yes I have come a long way and yes

we do tend to want to "get it done" but I am accepting the fact that it is not to

be and now that I have quit stressing over time I am so much more at ease.

I talked to my Doctor today and he has already set up a prescription for liquid

valium that I am going to pick up tomorrow. It is 1mg=1ml dose and does not

have to be refrigerated.  I believe it is water soluble but I shouldn't need to worry

about mixing with water yet right since I am going to use pills and liquid for awhile.

I was set to cut pills to go down to 5.25mg on Sunday but I am going to cut 5mg tablets in half (I dose twice per day)and then use liquid to make small daily cuts.  Would you do a quick walk thru for me on what I would take of liquid each day to do a small cut each day and do you recommend one day I take the small cut from the am dose and the next day from the pm dose and so on. I think I want to continue

twice daily dosing since that is what my body has been used to. I went online to Jansen Medical Supply and it said I needed a perscription for the BD Luer Lok Syringe like you recommended but I can get a syringe from a 1mg/1ml syringe from the pharmacy that I would think has the same markings.  I hate to bother my Doctor again however he has been wonderful and has let me lead the way.  Thanks so much

Mimi for taking so much time for all of us.  Your experience is priceless.

Take Care and God Bless.

Pam

[[mt...]]

HI Pam

You can find the syringes at Allegro Medical (you can google).  Mainly you need a 1ml syringe with 100ml lines on it.  I also would get a 10ml syringe for when you want to dilute to make more accurate cuts (good to try once you get lower and lower in dose).  If you put tape over the lines it will help so that they do not rub or wash off.  You may want to have a few as back up. 

 

As for a schedule I would start at .05mg a day cut rate and see how you feel after 10days to 2 weeks.  If you feel ok then carry on.  If you feel kinda ok hold for a few days (2-3) and then taper again and if symptoms spike again within 2-3 days then you need to slow down. If you kinda ok you can carry on but if you get any symptom spike then slow down.  I kept a daily log and rated my symptom level at the end of the day 1-10 (10 being the worse) so I could tell when things were escalating.  Its a good idea cause its hard to recall from day to day.

 

OR if you begin to cut and after 10 days or so you immediately feel a symptom spike then you need to slow down.  The taper rate is just too fast for your receptors to UP Regulate and match the reduction in your benzo dose.  I tapered at .025mg from 5mg to 1mg.  I would hold from time to time for 3-4 days to let my body adjust.  But I was able to taper at .05mg until just under 5mg so you might as well give it a try.  We are all so unique we have to find our own rate...many are able to go faster than me!!

Starting at 5.5mg

Using pills and liquid you could use a schedule like this

Day One

Am dose=2.70mg

2mg valium

.70mg liquid V

 

PM dose=2.75

2mg valium

.75mg liquid V

Total day dose =5.45mg

 

Day Two

Am dose=2.70mg

2mg valium

.70mg liquid V

 

PM dose=2.70

2mg valium

.70mg liquid V

Total day dose =5.40mg

 

Day Three

Am dose=2.65mg

2mg valium

.65mg liquid V

 

PM dose=2.70

2mg valium

.70mg liquid V

Total day dose =5.35mg

 

So on and so forth....

 

Once you get your syringe you can judge whether you can see the lines clearly enough to make the .05mg cut.  Its pretty hard to go down 1/2 of those tiny line...That's where diluting comes in Handy. Actually I liked it as the water really cuts the flavor of the liquid V.

its very easy so don't worry we can get there and go over it all once you get set up with Liquid  V and syringes!

 

In fact it as good idea to take the Liquid V with pills and let your body adjust.  I would get a little rush when initailly taking the liquid....I assume because it hit the blood supply much quicker...this was a godsend on days when I was not feeling great.  So take it for a week with pills and then begin to taper.

 

Hope that helps to get you wrapping your brain around the concept!  Let me know if you have any questions OR if I was inaccurate in my totals...I am bad at typing sometimes!!

Mimi

[[Pr...]]

Hi Mimi!

You are amazing!!  This makes sense.  I think I am lost when you mentioned

possibly mixing liquid V with water because of the tiny lines on the syringe.

But I just found and ordered the syringes on line.  I can pick up my Liquid V

tomorrow and get 1mg/1ml syringe from the pharmacy.  It sounds like you

think it would be a good idea for me to stay at 5.5mg per day for a week

using the 5mg pills and .50 mg liquid to let my body adjust.  That sounds like

a good idea and by the time that is up my 1mg 100ml syringes should be here.

Then I can start to taper per your math.  At that time I think I will need some help

from you in case I have to dilute with water to get to the mg  I need.  Your

totals per day made perfect sense.  I don't know how to thank you for all this

help.  You sharing this daily micro cut with myself and everyone here is so

wonderful of you!  I don't know how to thank you except to thank the Lord for

sending you my way.  You are my guardian angel  I will stay in touch

and look forward to humbly accepting your life experiences!  God Bless!  Pam

[[mt...]]

HI Pam

No problem!  Glad it made sense.  Putting it down in black and white can be tricky at times...  Sometimes I think about making a video for Youtube but I have thrown all my stuff away!! 

 

Don't worry about diluting now just get the basics down and adjust to the liquid etc.  I really preferred liquid to pills but some say they are sensitive and it made them feel a rush.  I think that may be due to the fact that many move to the liquid when already pretty sensitive due to overtapering.  Its easy to do.  Bigger cuts are easier to tolerate at the higher doses and so one cuts away and all of a sudden at about 5-6mg WHAM the game changes and your are in a state of CNS OVERLOAD and looking for a new way.  Also lots of folks take their dose ALL at once which can be quite stimulating to an overly sensitive CNS.  Better to spread out over the day.

 

Give it some time you will adjust and you may be completely fine...I was!

 

Glad you are on your way.  FYI Liquid V has alcohol in it so it is solvent in water...it suspends well so you get equal benzo in every drop.  That makes for precise cuts which is a good idea as you get lower and lower in dose.

 

All my best to you!

Mimi 

[[he...]]

Thank you so much for all of this helpful info!  I have cut .01 for the last three nights and not felt anything.  I have cut .02 at one time previously and have had some  :yippee:insomnia and spams.  I''d be thrilled to be able to cut .01 every night equaling about .3 per month!  Down to 3.30!  Thank you so much. 

[[mt...]]

HI Healthy

Yes Sometimes a tiny tiny adjustment to our cut rate can make ALL the difference.  It is EXTREMELY hard to convince many of this as they are impatient and want to be DONE.  Believe me I KNOW how bad we want to be done with this horrific experience but I also knew that it was important to match whatever rate my receptors could UP Regulate.  I was terrified I would step off with my receptors STILL Down regulated to some extent...I know that it can be painful!  I was committed to suffering as little as possible!! 

 

Just a side note....You may after a respite be able to go back up to .02mg.  Maybe after a week or so give it a try for a few days and see how you feel.  Sometimes I could go back and sometimes not...

 

Glad you are getting some relief...

Mimi

[[he...]]

thanks Mimi.  I will give it a try insofar as waiting a few days and seeing if I can handle a slightly larger cut....  I also have been committed to not suffering any more than necessary through this.  I want to function as best as possible, and keep on with what I love!  I have had another night with a tiny cut and no w/d symptoms.  I am so relieved.  I feel so grateful to have read this link and to have found all of this helpful advice.  Best wishes to everyone who contributed....and to everyone else too!

[[Ge...]]

I also have been committed to not suffering any more than necessary through this.  I want to function as best as possible, and keep on with what I love!  I have had another night with a tiny cut and no w/d symptoms.  I am so relieved.  I feel so grateful to have read this link and to have found all of this helpful advice.  Best wishes to everyone who contributed....and to everyone else too!

 

Hi Healthy.. I'm very glad to hear you are committed to getting off with AS LITTLE PAIN as possible. A resounding 'YES' 

 

Georgie

[[Fl...]]

Hi all, I hope you don't mind my posting on here as I am not on liquid valium at this time; however; I am micro tapering.  I eventually started using the word micro to describe my "teeny tiny "cuts as I was calling them for a while.  I am glad to see others are way ahead of me here as I am just winging it.  I am making a liquid using my Klonopin pill and am down to a tiny bit under ( not enough to post yet) of .37.  I had some sx with my last cut so am holding for about a week as I have to be somewhere this week and I want to go.  I am not on a schedule and sometimes have felt "left out" not sure what word to use here; as everyone seems to be on a schedule.  I wanted to listen to my body and slide under the radar as much as possible with this whole process.  I also have some big events this year that I need to be functional for ; my daughter's wedding shower and wedding.  So I will be holding for those events.  I am so happy to read on here that others are doing this and I am not alone.  Thank you for all the wonderful info mtmimi.  wishing you all blessings,

FB

[[mt...]]

HI Flutter

Great work on figuring it all out and reducing your dose! As I said before every drop we lose is cause for celebration!

 

I got relief from holding from time to time.  I just wanted to mention (again LOL) that if you find yourself NEEDING to hold ALOT because symptoms spike rather quick after resuming your taper, then you need to reduce your cut size (amount you are removing each day).  Its a sign that your body cannot tolerate that cut size any longer.

 

Since the cuts we take seem so small this can be difficult to comprehend at times.  But I had to reduce my cuts a few times as I got lower and lower.  The last part of the taper is when you really need to pay attention.  If you keep your taper rate in tune with your bodies ability to Up Regulate your GABA receptors you can move "downward" with little or no symptoms AND step off in good shape!

 

Keep up the good work!

Mimi

 

 

[[sp...]]

Hi,

 

I just got my first bottle of liquid V...240 ml (actually 8 oz) of 5mg/5ml in a clear solution.  Manufactured by Roxane and says "orange liquid" on the label.  I also have a 1ml oral syringe.

 

I plan to micro taper this, but the solution is far too concentrated.

 

Does anyone know if I can just dilute it with water?  What is the best way to go about diluting accurately?

 

Thanks in advance,

spatler

 

Oh, almost forgot...are some syringes more accurate?  Where do I get them.  The one I have now was free from CVS pharmacy store.

[[JO...]]

hi Spatler,

I wish I could answer your question as I am planning on getting the liquid next week when I see my doctor and want to use it with the pills to taper. i hope someone will be by soon to help you out. Hope it goes smoother for you i am stuck at 4.5 right now thats why I want to try the liquid.

Anton

[[mt...]]

Hi Spatler

I can help you with the diluting.  Yes you can dilute the Roxene Lab Liquid V with water.  I used it for my entire taper.  I see you are right on course and hit the 5mg wall!!  Don't feel bad that's the case with many of us once we hit the lower doses.  Using titration is a much more gentle path.

 

 

Syringes

I bought the BD Luer Lok Syringes 100ml.  I liked these as they have a wider outer barrel that acts as a magnifying glass to help see the lines. I will copy image below.  It is important to get familiar with the syringe.  Each large line =.1ml. (10 in total)  Each tiny line=.01ml. (100 in total)  The will have varying values depending on how you dilute your valium.  (FYI order some 10ml syringes for when you get to lower doses and want dilute your entire dose IE no pills) Its a good idea to put tape over the lines as they do rub off with use.

 

Pills or All Liquid

I am assuming  you want to use pills along with the liquid V?  You would take 5mg in pill  (or liquid but you will use it quickly) and the just use liquid for the mg you are titrating ...in your case .25mg

 

Dilution In your case you have the 5mg 5ml strength which s a 1:1 value.

Take 1ml of water and mix with 1ml/mg of liquid V. Now each full 1ml syringe will have .50mg of valium in it.  Each .1 line (larger line) on the syringe will have .05mg of valium.  You can use this mixture/dilution for 2-3 days (store in frig)

 

I would suggest that you begin to cut at .05mg per day and adjust depending on how you feel.

Starting Dose 5.25mg

 

Day One

So for the first day take 5mg in pill and then pull out .20mgValium in liquid V /water mixture.  You will pull out four large lines on syringe as each large .1ml line has .05mg of valium in it.    Total for day 5.20mg

 

Day Two

Next day take 5mg in pill and .15mgV. (From Mixture 3 large lines on the syringe).  Total for day 5.15mg

 

Day Three

Next day take 5mg pills and .10mgV. (from Mixture 2 large lines on the syringe).  Total for day 5.10mg

 

Please review and see if this makes sense so far.  Let me know if you have any questions.

Mimi

 

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac288/mtmimi/BND309628.jpgh

[[sp...]]

Thank you Mimi,

 

Thanks for the tips on syringes.  Yes, I plan to use whole pills and liquid for the fractional portions.

 

Question about storage...when mixed with water does it need to be refridgerated or was this just a precaution?  Also, you mixed for just a few days...does it only keep a few days?  I have a mixed a solution to last for 2-3 weeks.

 

I am struggling and so decided to start by cutting 0.015mg per day so I cut mine by 10X (3ml V/27ml water).  Is this ok?  Does it need to be mixed or stirred to keep the solution even?

 

Jana has contacted me and I am waiting for her to reply back to me so I can get started.

 

Thank you for your help,

spatler