Liquid Valium

[[mt...]]

Hi Spatler

Jana is of course the expert so follow her advice!  I was already mixing and using my method when I landed on her site.  What I really learned from her was more of the "scientific" aspects concerning down regulation of receptors and the need to match my cut with the up regulation of the receptors.  I had to taper alot slower than she and I also held from time to time.  I believe her position is that if we taper at a rate that is accurate there is no need to hold.  In other words if our symptoms continue to spike that in an indication that we are taking too large a cut that our receptors cannot match.  I still needed a hold every 2-3 weeks for a day ro so...made all the difference to me.

 

Its fine to start at .015mg and if you are fine then you can kick it up.  I was able to taper at .025mg from about 4mg to 1mg.  The last mg took me alot longer.  But we are all different so just listen to your body and try and go as slow as you can without symptoms spikes.

 

It was so hard to get going again after I had had a "crash".  I loved feeling well again and just did not want any symptoms to come back.  What is great about titration is that even if you have a rough day you can hold or reduce your cut and feel well within a day or so. 

 

Let me know if you ever need any support!  You have come a long way so feel very very proud of yourself!!

Mimi

[[JO...]]

I am a bit confused now benzo brain lol. I am seeing my doctor next week and will ask her for the liquid and she will go with the plan as long as I spell it out for her. I guess i confused about the syringes . I ordered and got the 1ml syringes and was going to do slow .10 or .20 cuts per week . I hope this will work . I  need to give her a specific amount of pills and liquid to write for. She always asks me what do you need me to write for. So I am thinking it would be better to over shoot it. Example I am at 4.5mgs

so will ask for 60 2mg pills and 30mls of liquid. I will see her in three months after this visit so I am sure this will be enough to get through. My goal is to taper .50mgs a month maybe more if I can handle it . This last cut hurt the most through this whole taper going from 5. to 4.5 . Gosh I hope my math is write another member helped me with a plan so am going to try it .

[[he...]]

Jiust like to share that I am experiencing exactly what Mimi is talking about.  I cut .01 and .02 for about 6 days in a row.  I started to get symptoms for two nights and held last night.  I had no symptoms last night.  I will probably give myself another day... (I need the rest!) and then start again.  It has been very nice to go down a total of 08 over the course of a week and have little to no symptoms.  I finally feel that I can get off of this stuff without messing up my days!  I would love to be off RIGHT NOW but what is the point if it is only going to make me deal with this for longer!!

[[mt...]]

HI Healthy

Good for you!  It is important to celebrate each .1 drop in your dose.  These add up over time and one day you arrive at zero.  I wanted to arrive at zero in the best shape as possible.  Just let your body be your guide and walk or crawl along.  Who cares how long it takes if you feel relatively well.  Slow and steady truly wins the race in benzo world.

 

Hi Anton

Can you tell me what you do not understand about the syringes?  As opposed to taking a weekly .10 or .20 cut I would highly advise to cut each day at .01mg or .02mg.  The smaller the cuts the easier on your body and brain to adjust and respond.  When we reduce every 24 hours our body can assimilate this step in the daily process and up regulate more efficiently.  Some believe these small cuts each day actually "nudge" the receptors to up regulate.

 

The math can be hard to understand.  In the beginning I would get so stressed over mixing I would break down and cry.  I got to the point where I could mix and dilute in my sleep.  It will come to you with time.

 

I can go over it all with you again and again until you get it!

Mimi

[[JO...]]

Mimi,

I so appreciate your paitence . I think I understand it a little bit after studying the syringe . looking at the syringes i ordered they are 1ml total. The confusion lies in the numbers example being .01////.02////.03 atc. I guess these marks may represent .002 drops dose that make sense? So my idea is to go from .50 to .48.46.44.42.40.

doing the cuts every other night until i get symptomatic then will hold. What are your thoughts?

Thanks again Anton

[[mt...]]

Hi Anton

Thats great now you have the syringe down. Bigger lines are the .1ml and there are 10. Now it depends on your dilution rate to determine exactly how much valium mgs are between those larger .1ml line.  If you do not dilute you can use the smaller lines but they are hard to read...which is why we dilute...easier to measure and cut.  It is also a good idea because the greater the dilution the less valium there is in each drop so you don't have to worry about losing any valium in the mixing cut process.

 

Make sense?

Mimi

[[Pr...]]

Hi Mimi!

Just wanted to step in and tell you I started yesterday micro cutting from 5.5

mg V.  I am cutting the 5mg tablets in half (using each half on the same day)

and then reducing liquid V by .05 ml each day. So far so good.  For the first time in about a month I didn't stress about the next cut.  I had been dreading them because I knew I would get slammed on about day 3 for a few days.  I too am committed to getting off of these drugs with as little pain as necessary.  Now that I have accepted

that it doesn't matter how long it takes it matters that in the end my body

is healed.  Your information for the right syringes and how to taper is priceless!

You do now your stuff and it is a godsend to us!  I hope you don't mind as I progress

I will need more assistance on diluting with water etc.  But for now, with your great

expertise, I am moving forward slowly.  To all other readers Mimi knows what

she is doing!!  Bless you Mimi and prayers to everyone as we take this journey together!  It's the longest Marathon of our lives but it doesn't matter how long it takes

it simply matters that we cross the finish line!  We can do this!!!

[[he...]]

Yay PAM!! 

[[mt...]]

Thanks Pam!!

Of course I am more than happy to give you any tricks that I learned along the way.  It gives more meaning to all that I suffered if it brings even a sliver of comfort to those coming up behind me.  I wish I had made a video when I had all my apparatus/chemistry lab (LOL) set up!  The door of my frig looked like a laboratory. 

 

So taper for 2 weeks at this rate and see how you feel.  If you get hit with a big symptom spike let me know and we can slow you down if needed.  Keep a daily log of symptoms and rate them on a scale from 1-10 (10 being the worse and 1 being none).  It is much easier to see if symptoms are increasing than trying to recall how we feel day to day.

 

Don't focus on being done...set getting to 5mgs as a goal and then to 4mg.  Break it down and work towards each goal.  If you need a break hold for a few days every now and then.  You will find that even if your symptoms spike after a few weeks a day or 2 of holding will bring you right back to a good place.

 

I will keep checking in to see how you are all doing!!

Mimi

 

[[Ge...]]

 

so will ask for 60 2mg pills and 30mls of liquid. I will see her in three months after this visit so I am sure this will be enough to get through.

 

Hi Johan,

 

Are you talking about a total of 30 mls of liquid to last for 3 months?  How are you getting to this amount...  I'm using liquid valium amounts of .75, .5 and .25 to add to 1 mg dry cuts (1/2 of 2 mg tab.) and using 22.5 mls every 42 days.... 14 X .75 = 10.5, 14 X .5 = 7, 14 X .25 = 3.5.... (1.75, 1.5, 1.25, holding 2 weeks each cut .. see my sig line)

 

22.5 mgs of 5mg/5ml solution with ONE REFILL should last 3 months until you see the doc again, am I reading this correctly? .. you are planning to supplement whole mg tablets with .25 mgs of liquid diazepam, same as I am?

 

Georgie

 

This thread is a confusing because support is being given both to those TITRATING with liquid D (diluting the pre-prepared 5mg/5 ml liquid d from a pharmacy further with help of a solvent) and those of us making .25 mg CUTs with the help of liquid D.. but the terminology is overlapping (this would be titration if a cut was .25 to clonazepam)...  When we take standard amounts of liquid D for .25 mgs, we do not change the strength per mg/ml by using water or anohter solvent.

 

Johan.. you have not chosen to talk with your pharmacist?  They much better at it than your doc. as they do this all the time.

[[JO...]]

Hi Georgie,

I guess I wasn't very clear with my notes for the doctor. the script will be for 3 fills. I know this is going to probably be more than I need but I can always dump the excess.

I will be more than happy to. it would just be easier for her and the pharmacist to fill it this way . Then in three months will adjust the script as needed. I just hope she will understand that the last cut did me in. i have been on 4.5 since 2/13 and want to move on. Funny my appointment is the day before my 50th Birthday I was really hoping to be off by now. It is what it is though and it will just take time .

Anton

[[Ge...]]

Hi Georgie,

I guess I wasn't very clear with my notes for the doctor. the script will be for 3 fills. I know this is going to probably be more than I need but I can always dump the excess.

 

Hi Anton... more is better.  That's what I've done.  With my next refill for liquid diazepam, I will have enough to finish my taper thru the first of June.  Much easier that way... Glad you are doing well.

 

G.

 

[[sp...]]

Hello all,

 

Just wanted to say the info on this thread has been a godsend to me.  Thank you all, esp Mimi!

 

I am now set up to do daily micro cuts and the world of micro taper has been opened up to me...I have learned a ton over the last few days and it just makes so much sense.  And the posts from people doing it seem to suggest that they are getting much better results as they all seem to have done Ashton cut and hold as we all have, and they are able to compare the two methods.

 

I liked one analogy I heard...it is the difference between a wheelchair going down stairs vs. using the ramp...no insult to the brain.

 

I started micro cutting on 3/8 and can not say things are any better yet, but they are not worse either.  Right now I am hopeful and I guess I'll find out soon enough.  I'll be posting what I find out from time to time.

 

Best,

spatler

 

[[mt...]]

Thats a great analogy Spatler.  So glad to hear you are on your way.  I assume you are aware of the cut rate...to start its a guess and you will adjust depending on how you feel over the next couple of weeks.  I was probably the slowest taperer and plodded along at .05mg then .025mg and then .020mg to .01mg and the final .50mg at .005mg!!  Its a dance but if you find your "sweet" spot you will minimize your symptoms!

 

Here's to some big relief soon!

Mimi

[[Ge...]]

I started micro cutting on 3/8 and can not say things are any better yet, but they are not worse either.  Right now I am hopeful and I guess I'll find out soon enough.  I'll be posting what I find out from time to time.

 

Hi Spatler... hopefully no increased symptoms is a harbinger that you are going in the right direction, and that you will not hit tolerance withdrawal.  I'm rooting for your team!.. that you will be able to function better soon, and be fully present with your family.. now wouldn't that just be fine! 

 

Georgie

 

 

[[Ge...]]

Thats a great analogy Spatler.  So glad to hear you are on your way.  I assume you are aware of the cut rate...to start its a guess and you will adjust depending on how you feel over the next couple of weeks.  I was probably the slowest taperer and plodded along at .05mg then .025mg and then .020mg to .01mg and the final .50mg at .005mg!!  Its a dance but if you find your "sweet" spot you will minimize your symptoms!

 

Way to go Mimi.. it's hard for me to hear folks talk about significant withdrawal symptoms as a necessary part of breaking free; as proof that the GABA is resetting.  From my experience, limited though it may be, much of the angst is avoidable. Benzos continue to do damage even after people are off; aka post withdrawal symdrome (etc.). So when benzo are no longer present, GABA can act like they are. Consequently, we are not really free until GABA reverts to the previous mode of function.

 

If I were starting again, knowing what I do now.. and having gone through what will be a 23 month taper.. I would try micro cutting. 

 

Georgie

[[he...]]

Hi Mimi et al,

 

I think that I am in the running with you for the slowest cut rate!  I  cut .01 for six days and still had to hold for a week!  But who cares as long as I am on the way down, and it doesn't effect my days!  I am down to 3.24 now, so when you add it up it is still .2 over the last three weeks.  I am very happy with that especially with such minimal symptoms.  I  slept for nine hours last night with not symptoms, so I will start again soon.  Micro-cutting is the solution that I have been waiting for!

 

Thank you again and again.

[[Fl...]]

I am also micro tapering but have not crossed over to valium.  I am going to try to come off the Klonopin by micro tapering but if I have to cross over I will try it if things get bad.  I am nervous about crossing over to V.  I am very sensitive to meds and some don't agree with me.  Or I should say most don't agree with me.  I am glad to find others who are micro tapering also. 

[[Fl...]]

Hi guys,

 

What an interesting thread! Thank you. And thank you Georgie for pointing it out to me.

 

Looking for advice.  I'm at 2 mg V. Have tablets ( 2 mg) and liquid (Roxane 5 mg/ml). This is my 19th day holding at 2 mg and came down from 2.15 before this.

 

I want to try the micro taper the rest of the way down, if possible.  Are there suggestions on what my first cut should be?  I was thinking .02? Does that sound even close?  I'm not sure I can sell .01 to my doc. That would take another 200 days. Looking for ideas.

 

Thanks much,

Flip

 

 

[[mt...]]

HI Healthy

I hit a few "walls" in my taper where I just could not move any faster but every now and again I would be able to kick it back up a bit. 

Sometimes overdoing or "hormones" can add to symptoms so its a good idea to keep a daily log of dose, symptom level (1-10) and any key events that happened.  Sometimes you can look back and see something else effecting your taper and then correct it.  I kept my daily log in excel...here is a sample of what it looked like.  The columns were date, full dose,cut rate, new dose, daily split am pm, amount in liquid am pm, overall symptom level for day (zero being NONE).  I even colored coded each cut rate so you could scroll through and see the ebb and flow of my taper... Oh well a girl had got to do something with so much time on her hands!!

 

 

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac288/mtmimi/tapering2.jpg

 

 

[[Ge...]]

Hi guys,

 

What an interesting thread! Thank you. And thank you Georgie for pointing it out to me.

 

Looking for advice.  I'm at 2 mg V. Have tablets ( 2 mg) and liquid (Roxane 5 mg/ml). This is my 19th day holding at 2 mg and came down from 2.15 before this.

 

I want to try the micro taper the rest of the way down, if possible.  Are there suggestions on what my first cut should be?  I was thinking .02? Does that sound even close?  I'm not sure I can sell .01 to my doc. That would take another 200 days. Looking for ideas.

 

Thanks much,

Flip

 

Do you need to give him a precise taper schedule?  What if you ask for liquid that would have 6 refills... say, 22.5 mgs a month, supplement this with 1 mg of valium tabs, split, and then go from there... so the doc is mainly out of the loop with regards to the taper.. I've been doing this from the start, and it works much better for me AND the doc!

 

btw... this is 5 mgs per ml, not 5mgs per 5 mls? 

 

Glad to see you looked up the thread,

Georgie

[[mt...]]

HI Georgie

I think Flip is referring to Roxane Brand Liquid Valium which comes in a 5mg:5ml strength which equates to a 1:1 dilution.  Perfect for calculating cuts and diluting with water.

 

Fiip from reading your signature it appears you have had a rough time getting to where you are.  Congratulations on being in the final 2 mgs.    I was tapering at .02mg at 2mgs.  I was also using ALL liquid as I felt liquid was more accurate at this low of a dose.  I read somewhere that the pills can "legally" be off to a certain amount and since I could only tolerate .020mg a day cut I was not in for any more inaccuracies.

 

While my Dr was on board for titration and even recommended it he really had no idea about cuts.  I found a post over at BDR that really summed up how I wanted to taper so I printed it out and took it to him for his review. I think its a great explanation of "THE REAL PROBLEM" where benzos are concerned.  You can read it here http://www.benzodetoxrecovery.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=603

 

It really explains why we need to listen to our bodies and let our symptom levels be our guide as the how we are responding to the cuts we are making.  Its important that your Dr support you in a method that promotes your body to heal as you taper.  Who cares how long it takes to taper if you are relatively comfortable and if you step off in good shape.

 

So try cutting .020mg for 10 days to 2 weeks and see how you feel.  You may not initially feel any great relief but many do as they move along.  Its almost like these small cuts actually "nudge" the receptors to up regulate and then we begin to feel relief.  If your symptoms really spike then you drop it down and go from there. 

 

All my best

Mimi

[[sp...]]

Hi all,

 

My history.  I held at 5.5 V for 40 days due to bad symptoms, at that point I felt terrible and decided to re-start, cut to 5.25, held for 20 days, then started micro cuts of 0.015 five days ago.  I use a 5mg pill split am, pm (always the same pill each day) and the rest is liquid V in the am.  The pill half that looks bigger I take at night.

 

During my 20 day hold I had 3 brief windows of 3-6 hours, I also had one on the first day of micro cut, but nothing since.  I wonder if I am in tolerance w/d.  I am generally not feeling any better.  I will give it time.

 

Important question for me...when people say NO SYMPTOMS, or LIGHT symptoms, what does that mean?  The reason I ask is that mine are mostly in my head.  I drive myself 12 miles to and from work and I work a full day.  So my version of miserable is emotional flatness, cog fog, anxiety, paranoia, catastrophic thoughts, racing thoughts, etc., but I am able to work.

 

Do you mean you feel totally normal like in a window?  Or just very functional?  When I get a window I feel MENTALLY my old self.  My emotional flatness and fog lifts, my thinking returns to normal.  It is a HUGELY improved state of mind.

 

spatler

[[Ge...]]

Important question for me...when people say NO SYMPTOMS, or LIGHT symptoms, what does that mean?  The reason I ask is that mine are mostly in my head.  I drive myself 12 miles to and from work and I work a full day.  So my version of miserable is emotional flatness, cog fog, anxiety, paranoia, catastrophic thoughts, racing thoughts, etc., but I am able to work.

 

Do you mean you feel totally normal like in a window?  Or just very functional?  When I get a window I feel MENTALLY my old self.  My emotional flatness and fog lifts, my thinking returns to normal.  It is a HUGELY improved state of mind.

 

Hi Spatler.. I'm not sure this question is for me, but I will answer... as long as I've stayed at a slow and consistent rate down from 20 mgs, I've been symptom free.. almost.  I'm on the benzo forum with a hope I can help others, AND to keep in the forefront of my mind the need to take the seemingly endless small cuts that have added up to almost 2 years.  I've tried going faster a few times.. this by not reducing the size of cuts, or not adding time needed between cuts.  At 8.5 mgs D, symptoms started to 'break through' so I increased the length of my cut time by 3 days for a .5 mg drop.. the symptoms disappeared.  At 7.5 mgs I had to go to .25 mg cuts, at 10 days one cut, then 11 days the next (kept things orderly in my pill minder!).  All the way to 5.5 mgs I was increasing the hold time for a day or two each 'cycle'.  By the time I hit 5.5 mgs, I was holding for 14 days each .25 mg drop and have been going at this rate and interval since.

 

I can't know for sure that someone like Budgie coaching you would have enabled you to come off faster, but you would have had fewer symptoms because she would have advised you to take smaller cuts when you first started to become symptomatic.. much sooner than you appear to have been advised on the larger forum. I was so very fortunate to have had her...I had the smoothest taper experience possible and was 'hand-held' every step by someone with a great deal of experience.  While she was dubious about people going faster than they should on a micro taper.. she was very much in line with listening to your body, and my experience was that smaller cuts in the same time frame led to a lessening of symptoms.

 

When I held back on the necessary cuts and became symptomatic.. I had foot and leg cramps, insomnia, agitation, and RLS that were in excess of what .25 mgs of requip could deal with.. My arms would pin wheel as if I was trying to do the 'doggie paddle' in bed.  This in addition to the leg stuff.. impossible.  I had to increase the dose of requip to .5 mgs. to 1 mg., and why take more requip than necessary. I'm very sensitive to RLS.. eg. using Splenda increases them and antihistamines are completely impossible, so I don't count the 'ground' swell RLS now present as benzo withdrawal.  At no time has there been emotional blunting.. or most other symptoms you discuss, though going a smidgen faster would have brought on symptoms far in excess of what I've experienced so far. 

 

Gosh.. a cut at an 18 day interval made me miserable.. but holding the same dose for 21 days on the next cut was fine.  Every time symptoms started to increase, I slowed.  They never built up the way they did with you, and I'm so very sorry you have been impacted the way you have.. dysfunctional, and unable to respond to your family as you want.  I head the stories of so many who suffered. Going at a nauseatingly slow and steady pace enabled me to replace GABA without kindling.. and I do think the very presence of symptoms means that kindling may be happening, after saturation has stopped being a player, at doses below 15 or 20 mgs of D.

 

I'm hoping you start to feel fewer symptoms .. as you are! , but thinking this may take a few weeks (or less?) because your system is so sensitized at present.  But my guess is that as long as you can stay away from tolerance withdrawal you will feel progressively better. 

 

Hi again Mimi... thanks for picking up on the use of all liquid.  I know what the guide lines say for generic d tablets.. and for someone who is more sensitive than I am there could be a difference.  As it was, when my script had to be renewed I would stagger the old pills with the new in the med minder.. just in case.  And how do you know if symptoms are due to tapering, or tolerance withdrawal.. would the latter necessitate a more rapid taper?  Perhaps tolerance withdrawal becomes less of an issue with a micro taper the longer someone is on that sort of regimen?

 

Georgie

 

PS.. I'm going to copy this response into my blog...

[[sp...]]

I read somewhere that the pills can "legally" be off to a certain amount and since I could only tolerate .020mg a day cut I was not in for any more inaccuracies.

 

The world, including our bodies, operates within tolerances...nothing is perfect.  The question is are these pills made accurately enough to satisfy our bodies.  I'm an engineer and have access to very accurate scales.  Since microtaper harps on the importance of accuracy, last weekend I took my pills to work and measured them.  I have IVAX generic diazepam.

 

5mg pill weight (avg of 100 pills) = 0.1712gram, took 10 of these and found High = 0.1730g, Low = 0.1666g ... this is a 3.7% swing (also found std dev = 0.002mg)

 

2mg pill weight (avg of 50 pills) = 0.1683gram, took 10 of these and found High = 0.1730g, Low = 0.1640g ... this is a 5.3% swing (std dev = 0.002mg)

 

It would be good if someone checked my numbers as this is all done on benzo brain and I have a difficult time with numbers, concentration, thinking.

 

Notice that the 5mg pill avg is almost EXACTLY 3mg more than the 2mg pill ... is that the 3mg of extra diazepam?  With the same amount of filler used?

 

What does this say?  To me it says most pills ~70% are within 2% of each other, but you can get some that are more than 5% different.  So from day to day this variation can happen.

 

The way to beat this is to shave each pill to the same weight...I have not done this, but I might try it.

 

I hope this is helpful to all,

 

spatler