INSOMNIA, NO SLEEP IN 4 DAYS STRAIGHT

[[Ma...]]

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

And Matt it looks like you are still on .30 of K. I am not trying to take sides here, but TheWay is right in that regard you are still pretty thick in your taper at that dose to me.

I’m not trying to predict how the rest of my taper will go.  What I know is that this is my first taper ever and my sleep at 0.3mg is better than it was before I started this process last summer at 1.0mg, so there’s that.  Not saying the bottom wont fall out as I get lower, but I’m hopeful it won’t.  I’m experiencing some of the things you mention such as increased REM and deep sleep too lately which I’m taking as positive signs.  I’ve actually got to tell myself to slow down because since about 0.5 I’ve had surprisingly few sleep issues compared to what I did at higher doses.  That said, no plans to rush.  I’ll definitely go as slow as I need to in order to be functional.  
 

But yeah, peoples’ experiences with benzos and tapering are all very different.  I’m not going to judge someone’s intentions, but comments like “if you are going to have insomnia as a withdrawal symptom, you will get it in spades” are at best not really constructive and for some people struggling, they are triggering.  I think it’s fine to share one’s experience because someone may relate to it, but we need to be careful about extrapolating our own experience to everyone.   Some of us have been on these drugs for years, some are CT’d, some kindled, some are on multiple other psych meds, some are on high doses, low doses, some people are older, younger, etc. etc.  These things all have big effects on sleep.  And so does sleep hygiene which brings me back to my original point:  We should all be practicing good sleep hygiene.  At worst, it won’t hurt, and in my case it definitely makes a big difference.  

Edited April 24 by [Ma...]

[[An...]]

I personally think meditation and light aerobic exercise can have a little positive effect with benzo induced insomnia and I would encourage you to do those things if you can. It may not help much, but it can help a little  while you slowly recover from the benzo induced insomnia. Definitely start doing the good sleep hygiene things now whether you think they are helping or not.  I mean think about it. There are ppl who can't sleep just as bad as those with benzo induced insomnia and they have never touched benzos or Z drugs.  These ppl are not suffering from benzo induced insomnia. They actually start taking Rx drugs to induce sleep which ironically makes the problem worse if you take the drugs long-term. IMO unless you are suffering from something rare like fatal familial insomnia, the primary culprit for insomnia and many of the anxiety disorders is stress in those of us who are more vulnerable due to genetic predisposition. Meditation (naturally) keeps the body's parasympathetic nervous system (rest and digest)  and sympathetic nervous system (fight or flight) in balance. If you get off benzos and the SNS continues to dominate, you will always continue to have sleep issues, just like the ppl who are struggling with insomnia and have never taken benzos. No amount of just waiting (after benzo detox) will fix this. Start now as you slowly detox your benzo.

[[re...]]

Oh good GOOD news about this being your first taper and your sleep getting better the lower you get. Same exact thing happened to me in my first Klonopin taper. This is a very good sign for you. Just go slow on this last .30 and you are gonna be FINE. I just have a good feeling about it. 

[[An...]]

5 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

I’m not trying to predict how the rest of my taper will go.  What I know is that this is my first taper ever and my sleep at 0.3mg is better than it was before I started this process last summer at 1.0mg, so there’s that.  Not saying the bottom wont fall out as I get lower, but I’m hopeful it won’t.  I’m experiencing some of the things you mention such as increased REM and deep sleep too lately which I’m taking as positive signs.  I’ve actually got to tell myself to slow down because since about 0.5 I’ve had surprisingly few sleep issues compared to what I did at higher doses.  That said, no plans to rush.  I’ll definitely go as slow as I need to in order to be functional.  
 

But yeah, peoples’ experiences with benzos and tapering are all very different.  I’m not going to judge someone’s intentions, but comments like “if you are going to have insomnia as a withdrawal symptom, you will get it in spades” are at best not really constructive and for some people struggling, they are triggering.  I think it’s fine to share one’s experience because someone may relate to it, but we need to be careful about extrapolating our own experience to everyone.   Some of us have been on these drugs for years, some are CT’d, some kindled, some are on multiple other psych meds, some are on high doses, low doses, some people are older, younger, etc. etc.  These things all have big effects on sleep.  And so does sleep hygiene which brings me back to my original point:  We should all be practicing good sleep hygiene.  At worst, it won’t hurt, and in my case it definitely makes a big difference.  

I agree. Good sleep hygiene is critical. Unless you find and fix the root cause, just getting off benzos, waiting, and doing nothing else is not going to restore your sleep naturally, esp. if you started taking the benzo for sleep.....sure, benzos have made your sleep worse but why would you think now just detoxing your benzo and waiting for your sleep to return will work....again, this makes no sense IMO.

[[re...]]

I think everyone here make great points. I do think the whole "just let time fix it" is not really the proper path to look at this. Although there MUST be some acceptance as well. 

But at the same time I can't discount TheWay's take on Benzo WD insomniacs vs regular insomniacs. I mean a regular insomniac is NOT getting hypnic jerks, brain buzzing, body and limbs going numb, twitches, hot and cold and a general sickness. Even the serious ones from what I have seen on the reddit subs and these people are pretty bad and seem to be absent of the nervous system stuff and the  the electrical stuff seen in psych med use and withdrawal. It takes insomnia to a WHOLE other level. I am not saying true insomniacs don't have some of these symptoms. But it is rare from what I have seen.  

Normal insomniacs usually seem as if they just can't quiet their minds down. My mom has had insomnia for a long time and she just doesn't get the CNS stuff that accompanies someone in drug induced/withdrawal insomnia get. They are two different animals I think. 

Regardless I say do everything you can. And as Antibenzo says. Meditate (I stretch like crazy and it definitely helps) if you are able to and do all the sleep stuff you can to heal ESPECIALLY in the critical healing time of a taper. 

[[re...]]

Check this out you guys. So when I used to read the reddit insomnia subs there was this dude on there who no matter what he tried. CBTI or otherwise nothing helped. He ended up quitting his job getting an uber gig (I am assuming he had a four door lol) and just traveling the country and got this camper shell on his truck and he made it super dark and would go to dark campgrounds, go to bed real early, and it completely healed his lifelong insomnia condition. The modern stress of the world with it's constant screen use, lack of exercise, and crappy diet is causing ill health. Lifestyle is major in all this. 

I know everyone can't just pick up and leave or whatever, but some people are actually dying slowly and need to or they wont make it. Angie Peacock did this exact thing. She knew if she kept going to doctors she would end up DEAD. So she took all her money sold everything and got an RV and it was a big thing in her healing she said. 

[[ba...]]

Z drugs although addictive. Mirtazipine works but stops and I'm stuck for a couple days. 

 

[[Th...]]

21 hours ago, [[M...] said:

I don’t really think your fear mongering of tellling me my sleep will eventually go to shit is especially helpful while I’m still tapering.  I also see you CT off 4 benzos which IS a very different expereince from someone slowly tapering.  Regardless, it can’t hurt to have good sleep hygiene so why not practice it regardless.  

Sorry if you took my post as fear mongering.  That wasn't my intent at all.  I never said your sleep will eventually go to $hit.  I said if you are going to get insomnia as a primary symptom, regardless of how slow your taper is, then sleep hygiene won't help you get additional sleep because the lack of sleep is NOT caused from a room that isn't dark enough or avoiding blue light after 6:00 pm, etc.  That's the truth, not fear mongering.  Feel free to practice good sleep hygiene.  No one said you should not do that.  Just don't expect sleep hygiene to help at all with Benzo-induced insomnia anymore than it can speed up the healing of a broken bone. Peace!

[[or...]]

My insomnia seems to have passed, finally, and I haven't even been waking up every 2 hours, but sleeping 6-7 hours.  I am doing a very slow taper, off a 1mg C tablet, and I mean a micro-taper.  The most I've sliced off my tablet was .003 g weight of a .170 g tablet of the 1 mg, and am down now to .090 g of dose weight.  That's what I go by, weight of dose, not percent.  It was easiest for me.

I had insomnia for months and I'm not trying to scare anyone, but I do want folks to know what I believe has truly helped me.  So, one thing that has gotten me through, and back to a normal, nights sleep, is regular exercise of some sort.  For me it's walking 3-4 times a week, and I also do a resistance band workout following a gal on youtube, just 20 minutes.  The most important thing I believe is my anti-inflammatory diet which is just no sugar or starches, I don't do starvation diets.

I am 71, took C for many years, and just brought home a new puppy.  Taking care of her, child-proofing my apartment, and training her to her crate, and potty training of course has worn me out, but I have been sleeping better and better starting I'd say about 2 months ago now, and yes, I started sleeping better before the puppy

My "history" is here..and it isn't perfect but I've done the best I can to keep up on it so others can see what is working for me  https://benzobuddies.org/profile/243292-[or...]/?tab=field_core_pfield_34 oregonlady

[[or...]]

13 hours ago, [[b...] said:

Z drugs although addictive. Mirtazipine works but stops and I'm stuck for a couple days. 

The only thing I've taken, actually started it 3 yrs before taper, is magnesium.  I'll drink chamomile once in awhile but not sure it helps, having lots of things to do, or finding more to do, has been best for me.  I never asked for any other drugs as I am done with them since seeing how bad wd sxs can be, even on a slow taper like mine.  I don't want my taper to last longer since anything else I might add, I usually read that I will have to taper off that too.

I think that is the main thing folks should look into before they pop anything else, is all the info/studies and experiences of others, that they can get their hands on.  Gaining knowledge is my best friend now, oregonlady

[[re...]]

The best way to AVOID a nasty insomnia issue,  is to just keep slow tapering with holds if necessary and like Oregonlady says......... exercise, exercise along with a tolerable clean diet. These should be implemented NOW and not after the 'jump'. Don't think for one minute the brain is not healing on the way down. 

  What Oregonlady mentions is proven as a treatment for all kinds of brain issues and not just withdrawal. Just read "the wahls protocol" or jon ratey's "spark". These are great books with tons of info on these very important healing things.  

Edited April 25 by [re...]

[[re...]]

Everyone please PLEASE look at the careful taper as a cast for a broken bone. When the taper (cast) is no longer active and it is cut off the broken bone will be healed. I recommend going to fairy dust. I don't feel the ashton 'jump' points apply to the sensitive people here and I would go down to fumes. You can maybe speed it up once you reach these low doses, but at least go down to hardly nothing before stopping. 

[[re...]]

Oregonlady:

Congrats on the new puppy!!!!!!!! If that isn't a positive distraction, then I don't know what is. That will help you BIG TIME!!!!!!!

[[re...]]

Badben:

Welcome to the forum.

Understand that any drugs. Mirt to benzos and everything in between can definitely help you sometimes short term and this can get you through a tough time I suppose. But know this............it will poop out in time and you can potentially be left worse than when you started. And these need to be tapered as well. And I had a serious bad reaction to Mirt like right away. I should of never taken it. I ended up getting this buzzing in the top of my head from it and all kinds of weird things. 

NASTY WITHCHE'S BREW THESE DRUGS ARE!!!!!!!!!!!! They open up a portal to the dark side I feel. 

Edited April 25 by [re...]

[[or...]]

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

Oregonlady:

Congrats on the new puppy!!!!!!!! If that isn't a positive distraction, then I don't know what is. That will help you BIG TIME!!!!!!!

I feel exhausted all the time, except after a great, night's sleep, LOL!! Of course she sleeps and gets a lot more energy too!  Ok enough about my pup, back in her crate so I can do errands

[[ba...]]

Couldn't agree more. My sleep was fine for a while it's just that these drugs stop working like mirtazipine then those days to gain tolerance and a script feel forever.

Oh well today is another day and I have to be on mirtazipine because if I dint then I lag awake and rskr my meds early meds meaning clonazepam.

Daily delivery socks as well.

[[ca...]]

3 hours ago, [[o...] said:

My insomnia seems to have passed, finally, and I haven't even been waking up every 2 hours, but sleeping 6-7 hours.  I am doing a very slow taper, off a 1mg C tablet, and I mean a micro-taper.  The most I've sliced off my tablet was .003 g weight of a .170 g tablet of the 1 mg, and am down now to .090 g of dose weight.  That's what I go by, weight of dose, not percent.  It was easiest for me.

I had insomnia for months and I'm not trying to scare anyone, but I do want folks to know what I believe has truly helped me.  So, one thing that has gotten me through, and back to a normal, nights sleep, is regular exercise of some sort.  For me it's walking 3-4 times a week, and I also do a resistance band workout following a gal on youtube, just 20 minutes.  The most important thing I believe is my anti-inflammatory diet which is just no sugar or starches, I don't do starvation diets.

I am 71, took C for many years, and just brought home a new puppy.  Taking care of her, child-proofing my apartment, and training her to her crate, and potty training of course has worn me out, but I have been sleeping better and better starting I'd say about 2 months ago now, and yes, I started sleeping better before the puppy

My "history" is here..and it isn't perfect but I've done the best I can to keep up on it so others can see what is working for me  https://benzobuddies.org/profile/243292-[or...]/?tab=field_core_pfield_34 oregonlady

Hi Oregonlady, how benzo induced insomnia feels like? I wonder if my insomnia is not only related to klonopin use, dependence and taper but also to depression.  It is just incredible that after so many nights without sleep, I can't fall during the day or at night.  I'm so exhausted that I can barely do a 10 minute walk. I'm pretty much useless. I would hate to get into an antidepresant during this precess.

Could you describe exactly how it feels? I appreciate your feedback. 

[[re...]]

Our brains were NOT meant to sleep on drugs.

It is due to all the stressed out tech influenced world and go go go that is breaking down our brain capacities. We were not meant to adapt to this constant barrage of info and the constant scrolling movement of phones and computer screens. We were meant to be in tribes and a strong family unit. But as this breaks down. These jokers get their opportunity to pounce on our consciousness and accept the shit sandwich we have been given as NORMAL. And it is anything but. 

This is a cult of crisis/solution indu$try that keeps making people sick and the same time billionaires with the following god complex that don't need to be there if we would just try and live simpler.  And the creator's way. 

I am all for progress. But they (the "experts") think like the legacy dinosaurs they are and still treat the brain like it is this abstract thing with barbaric methods in regards to the chemical lobotomy approach. There is no progress in drugging a somewhat stressed out brain due to the pressure of being hip and accepted and following the status quo.  This thing could be healed many ways without needing an exogenous substance that don't belong there. 

They should be in prison for crimes against humanity.

Psych meds have been used for ages to torture captives with a high distribution dose/cold turkey withdrawal approach to get their adversary to  talk. And they would keep this up. 

[[re...]]

And if doctors are going to CHOOSE to prescribe head meds like candy then they should definitely be FORCED BY LAW to deprescribe safely. It is quite simple to me. They keep crapping on their Hippocratic oath with what they are doing at this point and it needs to be eradicated. 

[[ba...]]

@revolutionaryblue and now they finally saying benzos are bad.

The doctor who started me on them back well over a decade and others who had little history on me now say benzos are bad.

Then come the treatment centres that claimed 90 thousand from me. Both saying they can taper me in 90 says and there was no mention of a 10 percent every two weeks it was I got your money and go to your room.

They're everywhere and where I live no private psychiatrists so have a scientist-gp tapering me and he's better than all the government doctors I think canada wide.

My story is long but those doctors are long gone into retirement.

[[re...]]

badben:

THAT my friend is criminal and it should abolished at this point in time. 

Sorry you have had to endure this torture. Because that is what it is. 

[[ba...]]

Abolished to late buddy. I should have dealt with my shyness.

Back then they just prescribed I didn't even know what addiction was.

Sucks and I've had halluthions times a billion after one rehab centre. My family kept me at home kind of like now.

The rehab centre's in the states I've read are better and other countries have private doctors.

My doctor now I just found him by luck and wr haven't met. A hospital doctor aka brnzo specialist tried to convince him I didn't need a long taper and so far he's been OK.

I don't know how I'll convince him to hold my dose because he may think I'm lying.

Also back then I was going through slot now it's worse. A five year old who sees a person behaving different than old dad.

Thanks my friend I just believe one day at a time but pressure is on. I think my dad has the clock running but I don't care.

Ramble on I can but these stories are everywhere and it scares me because of the withdrawals and the tolerance.

[[or...]]

2 hours ago, [[c...] said:

Hi Oregonlady, how benzo induced insomnia feels like? I wonder if my insomnia is not only related to klonopin use, dependence and taper but also to depression.  It is just incredible that after so many nights without sleep, I can't fall during the day or at night.  I'm so exhausted that I can barely do a 10 minute walk. I'm pretty much useless. I would hate to get into an antidepresant during this precess.

Could you describe exactly how it feels? I appreciate your feedback. 

Mine was mostly waking up after 2 hours and not being able to fall asleep.  But the worst kind was not even getting to sleep in the first place, and having race-brain, or some call it intrusive thoughts.  I had depression my whole life, and after I started taper my depression disappeared after I was about half-way through my tablet. Everyone is different, but never took AD's they made me feel sick after just one or two doses. So I suffered through many years of it.

I know I read somewhere that depression is a symptom of wd from benzos, and I was in tolerance wd for years, and years, didn't know a thing about it.

 

Edited April 25 by [or...]

[[ca...]]

3 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

Mine was mostly waking up after 2 hours and not being able to fall asleep.  But the worst kind was not even getting to sleep in the first place, and having race-brain, or some call it intrusive thoughts.  I had depression my whole life, and after I started taper my depression disappeared after I was about half-way through my tablet. Everyone is different, but never took AD's they made me feel sick after just one or two doses. So I suffered through many years of it.

I know I read somewhere that depression is a symptom of wd from benzos, and I was in tolerance wd for years, and years, didn't know a thing about it.

Thank you for your feedback. 😊

[[tb...]]

On 17/04/2024 at 16:19, [[c...] said:

Hi, I have o ly 11 days into my taper and I haven't slept in 4 days straight.  What can I do? Help please. What can I take to help sleep at least a little???

My psychiatrist prescribed Remeron to help me sleep. The dosage is 30 mg. I break the pills in half and take only half of one. With Remeron they say the lower the dosage, the better they will work. I have tried everything over the years including seroquel and zopiclone without sucess. I am down to half a .5 clonazepam at night along with the Remeron. How I will sleep when I am totally off of clonazepam remains unknown. The small dose of Remeron keeps me from taking one or more than one .25 mg. clonazepam to sleep.