INSOMNIA, NO SLEEP IN 4 DAYS STRAIGHT

[[ca...]]

Hi, I have o ly 11 days into my taper and I haven't slept in 4 days straight.  What can I do? Help please. What can I take to help sleep at least a little???

[[kn...]]

It's doubtful that you'll be able to get much Rx help from your Dr. with regard to sleep meds. Combining them with Benzos can be fatal and they are naturally reluctant.  You didn't say what you're tapering, but insomnia is typical with almost all Benzo tapers.  I've had sleeping problems before I ever landed here and WD has only served to make it worse.  One thing that I've found that my Dr. would prescribe is a sedative known as Trazodone.  It's not for everybody, and you'll find mixed reviews here concerning it.  I take it (300mgs) a full hour before I hit the sack, and combine it with 5mg of Melatonin.  I can do a good six hours after that.  My daytime drowsiness can be bad sometimes, necessitating laying down during the day at some point.  So, if you have to maintain a workday routine, be warned.  

[[ca...]]

Thank you for your feedback.  I'm tapering klonopin and I use 15 mg of Mirtazapine for sleep but is not working anymore. I tried Trazodone and it wasn't for me, gives me palpitations. 😞

[[Th...]]

Seroquel worked the best for me as far as getting some sleep, but it left me with major brain fog and DP/DR the next day.  Trazodone and Mirtazepine never worked.  You could also try Hydroxyzine that is somewhat sedative for most and is an antihistamine.  

[[or...]]

I wanted to sleep so bad but just when I thought lack of sleep was going to kill me, I got a few hours, then I would wake up ever 2 hours but feel right back to sleep.  It was enough though, I finally stopped worrying about it, but I do use 1 mag glycinate at bedtime plus some chamomile tea, I use 2 bags and let it steep for at least 15 minutes, longer if I can be patient, then I squeeze the extra out of teabags as well.

Another thing that got me through was either watching something that was calming on tv, or I always have a little book to read on my Kindle Fire.  I had super weird dreams, I just remembered that, but those have passed as well, another sign on healing, oregonlady~denise PS After a lifetime of depression, couldn't take the drugs, and I'm glad I survived without ADs,  I no longer have any depression.  I had it long before taking a benzo but imagine the benzo only made it worse.

[[or...]]

I used Unisom sleep tabs. Doxylamine is a super sedating antihistamine. I first took 1/2 a 25 mg tab, then went as high as 1. I backed off that and took melatonin and chamomille tea for awhile. Plus a little CBD -- 30 mgs. That helped. But I always returned to Unisom. That helped most of all. I had some "go to sleep" music cued on Youtube and that was useful also. Hope these ideas help.

Edited April 18 by [or...]

[[Ma...]]

All of the suggestions here are reasonable.  I have had sleep issues that waxed and waned during my entire taper.  To be honest, it’s the only reason I don’t speed up my taper and get off because my other symptoms overall haven’t been awful.  Even where I am now in the last third of my taper, I have nights where I sleep great and others less so, so it is not inevitable that sleep patterns worsen with tapering.   I’ve found that eventually my body demands sleep when it needs it.  I am trying to avoid supplements because I don’t want to rely on anything after I’m done with this taper.  That’s what got me here in the first place (I was prescribed Clonazepam for insomnia) The best things for me are behavioral:  exercise every day, whatever you can do. Don’t watch a lot of TV or get on your phone a lot in the evening.  Read a book or do something else.  Make your room dark quiet and cool.  Some of the other non-medicinal things people talk about here might help too.  I’d avoid other sedating drugs.  

[[P3...]]

On 17/04/2024 at 13:19, [[c...] said:

Hi, I have o ly 11 days into my taper and I haven't slept in 4 days straight.  What can I do? Help please. What can I take to help sleep at least a little??.

I am using CBD to relax the nervous system. Day 25 in acute withdraw.

[[ca...]]

Hi, are you sleeping at all?

[[P3...]]

Still up since 1:30pm on Thursday.  Had a 1 hour nap. Brain is very tired, body is doing the Cha-cha...hoping sleep is on the way.

[[re...]]

You said 11 days into your taper. You HAD to make a significant cut. If you don't mind me asking what was your cut and what benzo was it from? Your brain is shocked from said cut. I would go back up to stabilize. You just cannot be messing with big cuts like that when you are taking other drugs like Mirtazapine. Mirt is nothing to play with. That will need to be tapered SLOW as well when you are ready. 

[[re...]]

Ok I checked your posts. It looks like you did a .25 cut off of a 2 mg 2.5 year dose of Klonopin. This is a higher  cut than we here and Ashton recommend. I would definitely recommend up dosing in your situation and holding and then if possible try and come down way slower. Maybe cut 5% which would be .10 off of your 2 mg. I think you are super sensitive to the med change.

It looks like you dose twice a day? Did you take that cut off the day or evening dose?

I would try combining the doses if possible to one nighttime dose as this will give you some sleep. If not then only cut off the daytime dose. 

[[Th...]]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but sleep hygiene simply cannot and will not help anyone with true benzo-induced insomnia.  It can't because not being able to sleep is NOT a result of environmental conditions such as the room not being dark enough, or from blue light from watching TV, etc.  Benzo-induced insomnia is the result of damaged or destroyed GABA receptors.  GABA is your body's brake peddle or what makes you calm and relaxed so you can sleep.  Glutamate is your body's gas pedal or what makes you active and alert, or even fight or flight.  Normally GABA and Glutamate are in a balancing act so one does not dominate or overpower the other. However, Benzos take GABA offline then Glutamate rules the day and night.  That's why people can literally not sleep for days and days and still feel wired.  

Making the room dark, or not watching TV at night or getting up to do something relaxing if you can't sleep simply WILL NOT help you sleep.  Sleep hygiene can work after you are healed or for Insomnia that isn't caused by Benzos or other Rx drugs.  Peace

[[ca...]]

3 hours ago, [[r...] said:

Ok I checked your posts. It looks like you did a .25 cut off of a 2 mg 2.5 year dose of Klonopin. This is a higher  cut than we here and Ashton recommend. I would definitely recommend up dosing in your situation and holding and then if possible try and come down way slower. Maybe cut 5% which would be .10 off of your 2 mg. I think you are super sensitive to the med change.

It looks like you dose twice a day? Did you take that cut off the day or evening dose?

I would try combining the doses if possible to one nighttime dose as this will give you some sleep. If not then only cut off the daytime dose. 

I think I will combine the doses to night time and continue with the 15mg of Mirtazapine to get more sleep. 

I don't think I can up the dose because I don't have enough pills and my prescriber will not issue a refill for a higher dose. I will have to ride this one out but the lack of sleep is killing me. 

[[re...]]

You should be able to get some sleep by combining the doses. But realize that this will not be a long term solution for your sleep issues. I just think it was that hard cut that is causing your issues. 

[[ca...]]

1 hour ago, [[r...] said:

You should be able to get some sleep by combining the doses. But realize that this will not be a long term solution for your sleep issues. I just think it was that hard cut that is causing your issues. 

I think you are right and will have to deal with it.😒 sucks big time as I also have a heart condition and I need to rest. Only God knows what my future holds. 🙏🏻🙏🏻

[[re...]]

I agree with the Theway. Any of these sleep coaches like Daniel Erickson, Matthew Walker, to even the docs and psychologists you may encounter are really useless if and when they start touting this "sleep hygiene" nonsense in BW. This is not psychological, but biological and true chemical induced nervous system dysregulation. 

Having said this I will say that I think more melatonin/proper synthesis can be produced in time  from being in a completely dark room. This will not be a magic bullet. And this is not really advice to sleep. But to just rest. 

And all the screens we constantly watch are going to be discovered someday as very dangerous for brain function and neuro health and I would be led to believe that is why there is such an insomnia epidemic in drug free NORMAL people and possibly could lead people to the doctor's office and then get in the hell they end up in . When all they had to do was exercise, eat good,.......and yes limit screen time significantly. 

I personally feel constant screen use can change brain function and speed it up for many. I am talking more Computer and phone screens (because of the SCROLLING/MOVEMENT) and not say TV. This cannot be good for brain health. Not a chance.

And I am not really stressing the blue light argument. I just I think the screens themselves never mind the barrage of info overload especially in benzo withdrawal can really mess up an already biologically, compromised brain. 

I cannot prove any of this of course, but I think in time this may be discovered.

I highly doubt back in the day there were many insomnia cases  being on a farm all day working in the sun then coming home to real burning light and not the artificial light bulb. 

[[re...]]

Just realize Carlos that doctors will not put you to sleep, but knock you out.  Big difference. Drug sleep mostly is dreamless, where did the time go sleep that isn't restorative in the long run. I have a close friend who takes low dose (25mg) seroquel for sleep nightly and I asked him recently. "Hey man do you ever dream?" and his answer was an astounding "not really"

Believe me I know the desperation, but I do think your cut is doing some real crap to your brain right now. That is a decent cut. Who told to do that? I would of suggested on .06-.12 cut at first to see how you would tolerate it. Then depending............ move forward. These drugs are way too unpredictable to make an introductory cut like that. I am so sorry you are goin thru this. 

[[re...]]

Good news though as in time I just KNOW you will stabilize from this cut. It was decent but not impossible like a halving or anything like that. 

[[Ma...]]

18 hours ago, [[T...] said:

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but sleep hygiene simply cannot and will not help anyone with true benzo-induced insomnia.

 

I get some of what you’re saying but at least in my case, that’s not been true.  I’m doing a slow taper off Clonazepam and my environment and things I do before bed 100% affect my sleep.  Maybe your experience was just different.  The nights I sleep poorly there’s generally a reason - I’ve stayed up late watching TV, had something with sugar after dinner, slept in a new place, etc.  My biggest sleep issues actually came earlier in my taper although I’m still dealing with them off and on as I’ve gotten down in dose. At the very least, good sleep hygiene is more important than ever as your brain gets used to a world without benzos. 

[[Th...]]

It's not about my experience being different.  Benzo-induced insomnia is a result of biological changes in the brain, specifically damaged or destroyed GABA receptors.  It's not psychological.  Almost all sleep hygiene techniques and methods rely on psychological changes to help you sleep better.  You are still tapering so the Benzos might still be providing sleep, but at some point in your taper, if you are going to have insomnia as a withdrawal symptom, you will get it in spades and no amount of sleep hygiene will help with Benzo-induced insomnia any more than sleeping in a dark room and avoiding TV can help heal a broken leg faster.

I only bring this up because I've been on the forum going on 8 years and I see an endless stream of new Benzobuddies looking for insomnia relief thinking sleep restriction, CBTi, sleep hygiene, etc., will help when it simply will not.  Sleep hygiene works for normal "garden variety" insomnia not caused by Rx drugs such as Benzos, but simply cannot work when GABA receptors are damaged or destroyed.  No amount of sleep hygiene call heal or restore them or put them in a state where sleep becomes possible.  Time is the only healer along with God, if you have any sort of faith! 

And for some "lucky" people, insomnia never presents itself as a primary withdrawal symptom. Peace!

Edited Wednesday at 14:12 by [Th...]

[[Ma...]]

44 minutes ago, [[T...] said:

It's not about my experience being different.  Benzo-induced insomnia is a result of biological changes in the brain, specifically damaged or destroyed GABA receptors.  It's not psychological.  Almost all sleep hygiene techniques and methods rely on psychological changes to help you sleep better.  You are still tapering so the Benzos might still be providing sleep, but at some point in your taper, if you are going to have insomnia as a withdrawal symptom, you will get it in spades and no amount of sleep hygiene will help with Benzo-induced insomnia any more than sleeping in a dark room and avoiding TV can help heal a broken leg faster.

I only bring this up because I've been on the forum going on 8 years and I see an endless stream of new Benzobuddies looking for insomnia relief thinking sleep restriction, CBTi, sleep hygiene, etc., will help when it simply will not.  Sleep hygiene works for normal "garden variety" insomnia not caused by Rx drugs such as Benzos, but simply cannot work when GABA receptors are damaged or destroyed.  No amount of sleep hygiene call heal or restore them or put them in a state where sleep becomes possible.  Time is the only healer along with God, if you have any sort of faith! 

And for some "lucky" people, insomnia never presents itself as a primary withdrawal symptom. Peace!

I don’t really think your fear mongering of tellling me my sleep will eventually go to shit is especially helpful while I’m still tapering.  I also see you CT off 4 benzos which IS a very different expereince from someone slowly tapering.  Regardless, it can’t hurt to have good sleep hygiene so why not practice it regardless.  

[[re...]]

God you both make very valid points here. I am torn!!!!!! 

 On TheWays' behalf. I don't think he is fear mongering at all. He just doesn't candy coat anything.  He really delved into the insomnia thing because it was his worse symptom. Mine as well. And he is matter of fact with this issue.  I think there are severe biological changes to the body and especially the brain that no amount of CBTI will help. Definitely is correct. And everything from Melatonin, Valerian, CBTI, Therapy, etc will not do much for DRUG induced dysregulation and that is why I try to steer people away from melatonin or whatever. We cannot compare what works for the everyday basic insomniac vs the drug induced nervous system dysregulation of the brain type insomniac 

At the same time Mattwahoo makes very good observations about the taper and especially if it is your FIRST taper. I remember when I first tapered Klonopin. I started really getting my sleep back midway in my taper at .45 then completely by the time I walked off.  And I did first take it for severe insomnia. Something DEFINITELY happens with a smart taper as your receptors really will start to do their own thing while you get lower and lower. And I really think it is important on the WALK DOWN to incorporate more and more healthy things while less and less of the drug is affecting your brain. This is the time to really do things for brain health and healing. NOT when you jump. Garbage out Healthy natural in is what I say.

If this was not the case then why even taper and there are all the positive stories where people just walk off and are fine without symptoms due to a slow taper where the drug occupies less and less of your receptors.

I think and have seen it with myself as I get lower and lower.  REM dream sleep is getting more and more although not every night. And some nights are tough. But like some nights in this LOWER part of my taper out of nowhere I will sleep better than I have in a long time way before my ER disaster. Like I will just sleep before I even take my low dose (under 1 mg Valium) and sleep great like 4-5 hours of broken sleep but with tons of dreams and wake up so relaxed. I don't think the good habit of practicing stress relief and a wind down ritual before bed will hurt. It can only be helpful along with a smart taper. 

[[re...]]

And Matt it looks like you are still on .30 of K. I am not trying to take sides here, but TheWay is right in that regard you are still pretty thick in your taper at that dose to me.

That is a decent amount of that kind of Benzo so just try and go really slow from this last bit. People seem to want to SPEED it up (including me) at the end and it is where they get hurt. I remember the first time I was on K. When I got down to .125 I water micro tapered the rest in 100ml of water so it took me over 3 months to get off this last little bit and I walked off no real problems at all. Keep this in mind. As you know these are sneaky little bastard drugs that creep up on us without warning. 

I just wanna help. 

Edited Wednesday at 17:10 by [re...]

[[Rh...]]

I came off a benzo a few years ago and ended up adding Mirtazepine for the insomnia my benzo taper created.  I came off mirt about 9 months ago and got even worse insomnia and a bunch of other WD symptoms.  Sleep was, and is, a horrible symptom and I almost reinstate either my benzo or mirt many times because I thought I couldn’t survive.  BUT I’m here to tell you it did slowly improve over time and I pretty much sleep okay unless I’m in a bad wave. 
 

The things I finally tried that helped were magnesium glycinate (100 mg’s) and .25-50 mg’s melatonin.  So a very small dose of melatonin did the trick for me along with the magnesium.  I do not take either now, as I want my brain and CNS to heal on its own, but they helped in my most desperate time.

I think it’s also important to note that Mirtazepine is more sedating in the lower doses and more activating in the higher doses.  I only ever took 3.75 mg’s to begin with and then went to 1.75 mg’s for a while before tapering.

All that being said, sleep will return with time and the fact you made a larger than recommended cut is probably what set it off, so next time, after you stabilize, do a smaller cut.  👍🙂