NAD+ Iontophoresis For Benzo Detox (A Journal)

[[Li...]]

15 hours ago, [[B...] said:

Belsomra doesn't cause dependency. My former PsychNP prescribed it just for that reason. I was alternating it with Hydroxyzine, but I'm back to daily use again, as my sleep went to crap again. It doesn't alter anything in the brain, doesn't mess anything up. Like any OTC sleep med (which are mostly old H1 antihistamines), you might have a few days after discontinuation where your body has to adjust to sleeping without sedating meds. But there's no tapering or anything like that. It's not a super effective sleep med either. Some people get nothing out of it. Some meds can initially work, until they don't. Stacking and rotating is something many BBs have had to figure out. There was member named Andros on here who tapered off zopiclone. He was quite a master of the stacking and rotating protocol. He finally narrowed down his sleep aids to the more effective herbs and OTC meds, and he experimented to find the right combo for him, As he recovered, he found he needed less of them, and was gaining more natural sleep. He finally was averaging a full night of restful sleep of about 6 to 7 hours, and no longer relying on supplements or OTC meds. He has since left BB.  

I guess the question to ask is, what led to you going back up? Were you tapering too fast or cutting too much and it caught up with you? Did you develop symptoms you found intolerable and you updosed in order to get more stable? Are you feeling relatively stable now? Did the updose help? Ideally, it's best to get as low as you can tapering. Dr Ken Starr says realistically at or below the equivalent of 5 mg diazepam. He prefers 3 mg. At 2 you are well within his recommendation. He's probably one of the most knowledgeable doctors out there on NAD+ for detoxing off of benzos. He has a bridge program that allows one to gradually step down using NAD+. So you could theoretically use NAD+ to taper off by the mg. over a course of a few months. Or you could do what I an others did, and use it to jump all at once. The question that only you can answer, is can you push through the really intense acute that you'll face if you jump now? And trust me, it's intense. I  had stuff I rarely or never had during tapering. If you don't think you can handle that, stepping down gradually might be a better option. One of Starr's patients was able to gradually step off by a mg at a time, during his taper, using NAD+ IV's. He did fairly well with acute and post-acute, as he jumped at 1 mg. Benzoito used daily SubQ injections of NAD+ to assist with his taper. He continued weekly injections during post-acute. At 1.5 mg diazepam, JLeDi was one of the few to use NAD+ to jump at a much lower dose. He had a much milder acute at that dose. So, the lower the dose when you jump, the less intense acute is likely to be. Acute lasts from 4 to 6 weeks for most who do NAD+. 

 

14 hours ago, [[B...] said:

Well, I'm supposed to be nearing the end of most of this process. Most who did NAD+ recovered by 90 - 95% by the end of Month 5 post-acute. I'd say I'm at about 80 - 85% now. Sleep had been improving, but continues to be an issue since starting Month 5. I'm almost back to eating a normal diet. Food isn't as much of a trigger as it was. And I can drink plain water between meals and not have that bother me. Still some facial stinging and burning. Very sleepy during the day, having toxic naps. I finished up my weekly NAD+ iontophoresis last weekend. Had enough solution left to do a 500 mg patch. Was hoping to possibly be mostly recovered by Halloween, but still not there yet. Had to put the brakes on getting things done around the house, just not able to handle things at the moment. Hope to get flooring replaced in at least the kitchen and bathroom by the end of the year. I can spend next year doing the bedrooms. I have flooring for the one bedroom I use as a craft & hobby room. Wayfair open box to the rescue. That room and the other tiny bedroom in the front, are getting vinyl tiles. The master bedroom where I sleep will get the same flooring that the LR and hallways have. That usually shows up locally around February-March of the year on sale. All the bedrooms will get finished early-mid next year. I would have had this all done years ago if not for Klonopin. 

Some may remember me mentioning a potential lawsuit against the doctor who unnecessarily prescribed benzos for a condition I never had. I had a snafu, as the medical practice first said they had no record of me ever being a patient there, then said they can't provide records because they can't find anything. I filed a HIPAA complaint back then, and I finally got a phone call from a civil rights investigator. Ended up talking with this person for about an hour. I had to forward and copy communications I had with the Medical practice. I did ask about this possibly being a DEA violation, and was advised I should file a separate complaint with them. The practice has 30 days to turn over my records from this doctor. The investigator wondered why they didn't do the one thing they should have done from the get-go, ask the doctor what she did with my records. Well, the investigator is going to ask! As far as lawsuits,\

it's too late for malpractice. I had a consultation with the  brain-injury firm, who said that I absolutely unequivocally had a case, but a) I need to obtain my records from the doctor's office, and b) they were so busy and backed up, couldn't take my case, but referred me to an attorney in the area. That attorney was prepared to take the case, but everything went into limbo as I fought to get my records. HHS said that they are going to look for a pattern with the provider, if there's more than 12 patients, they will sue on our behalf for violating our civil rights. Otherwise, I'm on my own to file my own civil rights case. A decision against them by the HHS civil right division, would help my case. So there still might be a lawsuit, just not the one originally being considered. Right now I am focused on healing and recovery. It'll take up to 3 months for a decision to be made by HHS. It's been about 1 1/2 years since I first inquired. I can wait while the feds sort this mess out. I have a strong feeling that if the feds don't sue, and I hire a lawyer and file instead, that there will be an offer to settle out of court, should HHS civil rights staff find the medical provider denied me my rights to my records. Right now it's just more sitting back and waiting. So there might be a lawsuit after all, just not what was originally intended.  

A little more than a week until my 7 month anniversary of jumping from 2.75 mg. of diazepam. See how I feel by then. 

@[Be...] I understand the alternating of different sleep meds/herbs for sleep.  I will explore that with my doctor when I talk with him next.  As for the up dose, I feel that going back to the 2 mgs helped take the sharp edge off my wd.  Before going back up I was on the liquid valium and when I dosed down it was only by 1 drop, which was 0.05 mg of valium at a time.  I have never had a set taper schedule just dosed down when I felt my body was ready.  From January of this year until October when I dosed back up I had only dosed down by 3 drops.  That is a fairly small cut over the months.  I am going to add the Black Seed Oil back to my regimen this weekend to see if that helps as it did before.  Using the Black Seed Oil a while back I was able to cut 3 mgs at one time and feel no worse than the small dose downs.   I would like to dose down more if I can.  I did get the NAD nasal spray and will start that soon.  I am going to add the supplements that you used with the precursors to absorb as much as I can.  Congratulations on 7 months!!    

[[Be...]]

On 02/11/2023 at 08:27, [[L...] said:

@[Be...] I understand the alternating of different sleep meds/herbs for sleep.  I will explore that with my doctor when I talk with him next.  As for the up dose, I feel that going back to the 2 mgs helped take the sharp edge off my wd.  Before going back up I was on the liquid valium and when I dosed down it was only by 1 drop, which was 0.05 mg of valium at a time.  I have never had a set taper schedule just dosed down when I felt my body was ready.  From January of this year until October when I dosed back up I had only dosed down by 3 drops.  That is a fairly small cut over the months.  I am going to add the Black Seed Oil back to my regimen this weekend to see if that helps as it did before.  Using the Black Seed Oil a while back I was able to cut 3 mgs at one time and feel no worse than the small dose downs.   I would like to dose down more if I can.  I did get the NAD nasal spray and will start that soon.  I am going to add the supplements that you used with the precursors to absorb as much as I can.  Congratulations on 7 months!!    

Andros had the whole sleep protocol down to a science with rotating and stacking. I just found it mind boggling. I also found the whole hyperbolic micro-tapering overwhelming as well. One of the reasons that led me to explore iontophoresis NAD+ patches as an option. That was a pretty slow reduction over a long period, so you were holding awhile after each drop reduction? Were the w/d symptoms becoming intolerable that led you to updosing? How long were you on benzos prior to tapering, and what dose did you start at when tapering? There's a lot of factors to consider with using NAD+. For example: I took Klonopin for 15 months, started at .05 mg., then it was raised to 1 mg. I rapidly crossed over to Valium and tapered down from 15 mg over 2 1/2 years until the 2.75 mg. I jumped from. I also c/t'd 5 mg. Ambien then. The V knocked me out sleep-wise, Ambien wasn't needed. Didn't really affect me either.  Sleep was fine until I got below 10 mg. of V. Then the 300 mg. gabapentin was added, and eventually the Belsomra, first 10 mg., then 20 mg. I had broken sleep all the way down, once I got below 10 mg.    

 

I never really bothered with herbals, tried Lavender and I had some kind of reaction to it. Hydroxyzine helps, mostly with staying asleep for a few hours. Belsomra helps with falling asleep. I had a period, several months ago, where I was sleeping much better, but lately it's gotten worse again. Most of my other symptoms have abated, sleep is the biggest. Then there's still some facial burning, restlessness, muscle aches, fatigue, on-and-off tinnitus. Not familiar with Black Seed Oil. Some on her have used Shrooms and found that helpful. While NAD+ nasal spray didn't allow me to cut more, it did ease some of my w/d symptoms. Mostly the headaches. I was headache-free for the longest time, until I jumped, and they returned with a vengeance. And that's the biggest question you have to ask and answer for yourself. If you jump from diazepam with NAD+, can you handle the intense acute, and rough early post-acute? Some who followed this thread, and were eager to possibly use NAD+ themselves, were second-guessing after reading my myriad of symptoms, they didn't think it would be so bad. I didn't either. Others mentioned things being bad after NAD+, but didn't elaborate. You really have to prepare yourself a lot psychologically. There's only one remedy if you can't get through that intense acute, reinstating. One person on here did that a month later, And spent the next year tapering off the last bit of clonazepam. He did have a liver issue, and he may not have utilized the NAD+ properly. Some don't do well with NAD+, because of other meds they're on, especially psych meds. But one had to stop a triptan for migraines , and another had to cut pregabalin in half, and then cut it out completely a month later. 

 

You don't need any of those supplements with the nasal spray, unless you happen to be deficient. Those were started a week before doing NAD+ iontophoresis in doses like IV NAD+. You aren't going to be dosing high with nasal spray, so your liver can handle methyl donors and your body can handle the temporary and mild histamine increase. Unless you have developed a histamine issue during tapering. In which case taking Quercetin daily helps. . They are needed to help prep your body, and provide support, before and during NAD+ treatment. In hindsight, knowing what I know now, I think I still would have done it. I don't regret doing it, though things were really intense the first few months. It would be a lot of suffering, but recovery would be faster and shorter. I was done with the benzo merry-go-round and I just wanted to get off. 7 months, but still not healed as much as I'd like. But better than many at this stage. If you respond well to the nasal spray, there's a good chance you would do well with NAD+ treatments in either IV or iontophoresis form.     

[[Li...]]

On 03/11/2023 at 12:51, [[B...] said:

Andros had the whole sleep protocol down to a science with rotating and stacking. I just found it mind boggling. I also found the whole hyperbolic micro-tapering overwhelming as well. One of the reasons that led me to explore iontophoresis NAD+ patches as an option. That was a pretty slow reduction over a long period, so you were holding awhile after each drop reduction? Were the w/d symptoms becoming intolerable that led you to updosing? How long were you on benzos prior to tapering, and what dose did you start at when tapering? There's a lot of factors to consider with using NAD+. For example: I took Klonopin for 15 months, started at .05 mg., then it was raised to 1 mg. I rapidly crossed over to Valium and tapered down from 15 mg over 2 1/2 years until the 2.75 mg. I jumped from. I also c/t'd 5 mg. Ambien then. The V knocked me out sleep-wise, Ambien wasn't needed. Didn't really affect me either.  Sleep was fine until I got below 10 mg. of V. Then the 300 mg. gabapentin was added, and eventually the Belsomra, first 10 mg., then 20 mg. I had broken sleep all the way down, once I got below 10 mg.    

I never really bothered with herbals, tried Lavender and I had some kind of reaction to it. Hydroxyzine helps, mostly with staying asleep for a few hours. Belsomra helps with falling asleep. I had a period, several months ago, where I was sleeping much better, but lately it's gotten worse again. Most of my other symptoms have abated, sleep is the biggest. Then there's still some facial burning, restlessness, muscle aches, fatigue, on-and-off tinnitus. Not familiar with Black Seed Oil. Some on her have used Shrooms and found that helpful. While NAD+ nasal spray didn't allow me to cut more, it did ease some of my w/d symptoms. Mostly the headaches. I was headache-free for the longest time, until I jumped, and they returned with a vengeance. And that's the biggest question you have to ask and answer for yourself. If you jump from diazepam with NAD+, can you handle the intense acute, and rough early post-acute? Some who followed this thread, and were eager to possibly use NAD+ themselves, were second-guessing after reading my myriad of symptoms, they didn't think it would be so bad. I didn't either. Others mentioned things being bad after NAD+, but didn't elaborate. You really have to prepare yourself a lot psychologically. There's only one remedy if you can't get through that intense acute, reinstating. One person on here did that a month later, And spent the next year tapering off the last bit of clonazepam. He did have a liver issue, and he may not have utilized the NAD+ properly. Some don't do well with NAD+, because of other meds they're on, especially psych meds. But one had to stop a triptan for migraines , and another had to cut pregabalin in half, and then cut it out completely a month later. 

You don't need any of those supplements with the nasal spray, unless you happen to be deficient. Those were started a week before doing NAD+ iontophoresis in doses like IV NAD+. You aren't going to be dosing high with nasal spray, so your liver can handle methyl donors and your body can handle the temporary and mild histamine increase. Unless you have developed a histamine issue during tapering. In which case taking Quercetin daily helps. . They are needed to help prep your body, and provide support, before and during NAD+ treatment. In hindsight, knowing what I know now, I think I still would have done it. I don't regret doing it, though things were really intense the first few months. It would be a lot of suffering, but recovery would be faster and shorter. I was done with the benzo merry-go-round and I just wanted to get off. 7 months, but still not healed as much as I'd like. But better than many at this stage. If you respond well to the nasal spray, there's a good chance you would do well with NAD+ treatments in either IV or iontophoresis form.     

@[Be...] Yes, I was holding for a while after each reduction in drops.  I have never had a set reduction schedule I just reduced my dosage when I felt that I was physically and mentally ready to do it.   My withdrawal symptoms have stayed fairly consistent ever since I got below 2 mg of K.  Headaches, pressure in my head, visual issues, emotionally numb, completely disconnected from everyone emotionally, tinnitus,  trembling of my eardrums and nerves in my body, feeling like my nerves crawling in my body, brain fog, not being able to talk right, short term memory issues, depression, at time anxiety, insomnia and other issues on and off. I dosed back up from 0.8 mg of V to 2 mgs of V because my tinnitus did not let up for 2 months...  it was loud and was driving me crazy.   Normally when I dose down my WD get worse but gets better with 2 or 3 weeks.  Prior me starting to get off of benzos I had been on them for almost 20 years.  My highest dose was 8 mg of K a day.  The lower my dosage the worse the WD symptoms.  I started the NAD+ nasal spray 2 days ago that I ordered from Ageless.  I am using it once a day right now and will increase to 2 times a day probably the end of this week.  This past week my doctor wanted me to look into another depression medication but I am not going to try it.  I feel that there are too many side effects and it is getting hard to distinguish side effects from withdrawals.  So for the depression and mood I am using celtic salt each day and saffron.  No side effects to either and I seem to be tolerating them well.  As far as the patches go, I do plan on trying to start to dose down again to see how I do since my body has had a little bit of a reprieve.    

[[Be...]]

Sorry for my absence all. I have had an uptick in symptoms, and am not recovered yet. About to enter month 6 of post-acute. I feel like I'm right on he edge of recovery. I was doing so well, having lots of windows, but now I'm plummeted into the wave that just. Won't. Let. Up.  I do believe NAD+ likely worked for me, but I'm not ready to say it certainly did. And no one can say if it will work for someone else, I do know that many (but not all) people respond best the lower they taper before using NAD+. What it is not, is it's not a quick fix, it will not return you to your pre-benzo self. Yes, many had shorter recovery times from NAD+. But there's a trade-off. People who tapered down to fumes before walking off, took a very long time, but many avoided acute altogether, and went straight to post-acute. People who did NAD+ had an intense month of acute, and they recovered faster. I felt like this with every window, the waves would return with intensity. words from Alfred Noyes The Highwayman. 

 

 There was death at every window;
 And hell at one dark window;

 

 

Reading this thread, I came across this post by one of our members. https://benzobuddies.org/topic/273362-head-pressure/?do=findComment&comment=3474993 Nathan is a long-hauler and been dealing with symptoms and trying many things. He makes a point about a rule he follows. Pretty much I'm the same way. I'm not confident enough to recommend NAD+ iontophoresis, because the jury is still out on this. I can only share my experience. I cannot say others will have the same. No one can guarantee the outcome for anybody. Most doing this at the equivalent of .5 mg of diazepam or lower, recovered within 5 to 6 months after acute. Some didn't benefit. Some used NAD+ to get off of the equivalent of 15 mg diazepam, they recovered, but it took longer. There's a cautionary tale in this thread as well. This should not be used as a detox to get off amounts higher than the equivalent of 15 mg diazepam. It isn't intended for that use, and no one should use it for that purpose. It won't help in high dose situations. There is no evidence it has any benefit in protracted withdrawal. It can help with post-acute, provided it was used to jump from a benzo, or used soon after. Follow-up treatments certainly helped me. But it doesn't appear to help during post-acute if it wasn't used to jump or during acute. And it can't be said enough, it doesn't help everybody, and no one should rush into it. IV NAD+ is very expensive, Even iontophoresis NAD+ cost me a little over $1000 US. Doing NAD+ iontophoresis takes discipline and you need to rule out other problems, and/or fix certain ones. 

[[Be...]]

On 06/11/2023 at 09:56, [[L...] said:

@[Be...] Yes, I was holding for a while after each reduction in drops.  I have never had a set reduction schedule I just reduced my dosage when I felt that I was physically and mentally ready to do it.   My withdrawal symptoms have stayed fairly consistent ever since I got below 2 mg of K.  Headaches, pressure in my head, visual issues, emotionally numb, completely disconnected from everyone emotionally, tinnitus,  trembling of my eardrums and nerves in my body, feeling like my nerves crawling in my body, brain fog, not being able to talk right, short term memory issues, depression, at time anxiety, insomnia and other issues on and off. I dosed back up from 0.8 mg of V to 2 mgs of V because my tinnitus did not let up for 2 months...  it was loud and was driving me crazy.   Normally when I dose down my WD get worse but gets better with 2 or 3 weeks.  Prior me starting to get off of benzos I had been on them for almost 20 years.  My highest dose was 8 mg of K a day.  The lower my dosage the worse the WD symptoms.  I started the NAD+ nasal spray 2 days ago that I ordered from Ageless.  I am using it once a day right now and will increase to 2 times a day probably the end of this week.  This past week my doctor wanted me to look into another depression medication but I am not going to try it.  I feel that there are too many side effects and it is getting hard to distinguish side effects from withdrawals.  So for the depression and mood I am using celtic salt each day and saffron.  No side effects to either and I seem to be tolerating them well.  As far as the patches go, I do plan on trying to start to dose down again to see how I do since my body has had a little bit of a reprieve.    

I didn't really have big tinnitus problems until I jumped using NAD+ as an assist. And I had a big uptick in symptoms after as well. But I wasn't going to reinstate, I forced myself to wait it out. You have to ask yourself whether you have it in you, to fight through the first 6 weeks. You appear to have done a sensible taper, you came down from a high amount of K. AgelessRX uses Belmar Pharmacy to compound their NAD+ products. Archway Apothecary is another NAD+ compounding pharmacy, which is what Dr Ken Starr uses for his patients/clients. Things get worse as you get lower, this is what Dr Ken Starr called "hitting a wall" and reaching a "sticky point". This is where NAD+ is most helpful. It's to ease you over that rough patch, and safely get you off that remaining amount. Some use it as a bridge to step down and step off. Some use it to just step off. Those who used it to step down, did better than those who used it to step off. But it was costlier too. Anyone who thinks they can't handle an intense acute similar to mine, might consider stepping down instead. If you are responding well to the nasal spray, and even getting relief from some symptoms as I did, NAD+ might work for you. I'm not aware of celtic salt and saffron, but I have heard/read about Inositol. There's some research to support the possibility of Inositol being effective.  

[[Be...]]

I haven't really been updating too much, not a whole lot to update on. I got to 90% recovered, but was thrown back into a bad wave that dragged on for weeks, that revived symptoms I thought were past me, like headaches. I'm 10 months out now, still needing meds to help with sleep, still having burning, stinging in my face. Eating sets me off, doesn't matter what i eat, I have symptoms regardless. I also have spasms in my back, and I am still dealing with a a need to stretch excessively. Also dealing with feeling chilly, which also happens after eating.  My tinnitus is wayyyyy down, it's not obvious unless it's quiet. So I'm climbing my way up out of 80% again. Overall, I feel a lot better, I had more windows in the Summer, waves started taking over as Winter arrived. 10 months ago, I took a big step, and took the plunge with NAD+ iontophoresis. I do think it was the best decision for me, and have no regrets, though it was hard initially. Hope to get to 95% by the beginning of April. I've gotten so involved in doing other things, visiting here is not a priority for me. Other things are. At least I can eat just about anything, my diet is pretty normal. The last thing I struggled with was eating anything too spicy. I can handle spices better; so fajitas, quesadillas, jerk chicken, cinnamon anything, garlic anything, Mediterranean seasonings, pepper, I so missed seasoned food. For almost two years, everything I ate was bland. I'm hoping sleep improves more, I'm getting 5 to 6 hours of broken sleep. I sometimes doze off during the day, but not toxic naps. They stopped being toxic a few months ago. I have little of the floaty, boaty, dizzy stuff. My mornings are my most productive time of day. Evenings things go downhill and I crawl into bed. See how things go in the coming months.

[[Li...]]

@[Be...] Thank for the update.  I think that is the progress that you are making.  I have been using the NAD nasal spray (when I remember) and it seems to help with energy.  I finished my taper on Jan 1, 2024.  Hang in there....  you are making a lot of progress in your healing.