The Long Hold Support Group

[[an...]]

Yes, we will all make it.  No doubt about it. 

 

As for myself, I had a great few weeks. I felt normal.  I am now experiencing an uptick in symptoms again. This started on Saturday evening.  I've been holding since my up dose back in early June, (I was holding before the up dose) and I have no idea why I got hit with symptoms again. Could this be tolerance?  Can one get used to their dose while holding?  It does not make sense.  I am not doing anything differently. Maybe that is the problem.  I wonder if I should have started cutting again last week when I was feeling good.  I was so close to resuming the taper, but then I thought I would give myself another few weeks. You just never know with this stuff.

 

 

I hope everyone is having a good day. Anne

 

 

Anne, there is no way to figure these drugs out. That is why we cannot get any help. the doctors do not understand them. I have cut nearly 98% of my dosage and still have bad days mixed in with the good. When I think I have it  beat, it beats me with a bad day. So I gave up trying to figure it out. If sxs are bad , I hold till they pass 1 day or 2 or 3 or whatever and then I go back to cutting .

 

Exactly JR.  Every time I think I am ready to finish, I get hit with symptoms.  I do not obsess about symptoms which is why it is so devastating when I get hit again after feeling so well for several weeks. 

 

Congratulations!!  You are almost finished. 

[[li...]]

Your confidence actually gives me confidence V. You know way more about holding than I do. Thx

[[an...]]

So how do we know if we need to hold more or if it's side effects?  I asked this month's ago and I don't think there was a consensus. This is beyond maddening. I don't know if this is as good as its going to get (which unfortunately is way worse than ten days ago) and I missex the window to stRt tapering again. I give up.

I personally don't think your body adjusted to the K initially and that may be what is happening. Please don't give up. I know you're struggling right now. Try to get through each day doing whatever you can. Take it easy when needed. I believe you're still experiencing withdrawal and instability the way you describe your sxs. Stressing over it can become overwhelming so relax if you can. I'm still positive you'll get where you need to be. I wish I could do more by having the answers you need.  --V

 

Liza,

 

I agree with Valley.  It does sound that you never really stabilized on the K.  I think the switch from A to K was a big deal.  It might take longer for you to stabilize.  If things are unbearable, you could either try a small up dose or a cut.  It is hard to say.  I agree with Valley, that you will eventually get there, but it could take a lot longer.  If you can handle the symptoms, and they don't worsen you will be okay.  I agree about trying to relax as much as you can.  It will make a difference. I also wish I could give you an answer.

 

 

[[He...]]

Oh Anne, I just read more of the posts. Looks like no one really knows for sure what is going on. I just hope and pray that your new sfx go away. We all have to be strong!

 

If you find out anything more about tolerance, I hope you will share it here. I am thoroughly confused now.

Heathcliff

[[an...]]

Anne, I am sorry to hear about your uptic in side effects.

I too have had two bad days. My mornings are always awful but these past two days I was hit with headaches, neck cakes and overwhelming fear.

 

I too don't get it! I held for two months and then only tapered down .05 over five days. That's a cut of only  one half of of a tenth of a milligram !

 

I think I am going to have to cut .01 from now on and wait about three days before I cut again instead of cutting .01 for five days in a row.

 

But of course it's only 6 days past the .05 cut, so I have to wait and see. My parathesia Had gone away and that I was so grateful for.

But now my windows are not as clearly open today, and I had some bad parathesia this morning, and my neck ache, although better, is still there.

 

I am wondering if the fact that Valium has a half life, may be the reason why my increased sfx didn't start to appear until the 6 th day.?

 

But as far as tolerance goes.... I have heard over and over again that tolerance can NOT happen while you are tapering or holding..  ValleyUm wrote a great reply to me a few pages back and  I finally accepted it.

 

So no, I don't think it's tolerance, it's probably in my opinion, just the crazy withdrawal of Benzos that behave like that.

Also some one wrote once that with any cut you make, you will most likely get some withdrawal side effects. I know you didn't make a cut recently, but could it be a delayed sfx from a previous cut. Or does that nit make sense?. I am not knowledgeable enough to give you any real advice. I wish I could.

I guess you should just hang in and see what happens? . The sfx  be gone in a few days..

 

That's what I'm going to try to do. What else can I do?

 

I hope you are feeling much relief real soon!

 

Heathcliff  :smitten:

 

Heath,

 

Thanks so much for your support.  This is a wonderful group of people, and I appreciate everyone here.

 

I am sorry you are having a bad time.  It is unbelievable how small dosages of these drugs can cause so many problems.  I have heard that many people that take valium do not feel their cuts for a few days.  It is the long half life.  Yes, I have also heard a lot about tolerance and how one cannot or can experience it during holds.  I have been holding for quite a while, so the uptick in symptoms is not due to a cut.  The last time I cut was at the beginning of May, and it was only about 4% cut over a four week period. 

 

This might be a temporary setback.  I will wait and see what happens tomorrow.  As you say, that is all we can do and do it we will.  Thank you again for your nice reply. 

 

Anne 

[[an...]]

Oh Anne, I just read more of the posts. Looks like no one really knows for sure what is going on. I just hope and pray that your new sfx go away. We all have to be strong!

 

If you find out anything more about tolerance, I hope you will share it here. I am thoroughly confused now.

Heathcliff

 

Yes, I will definitely share what I find. 

[[Va...]]

Your confidence actually gives me confidence V. You know way more about holding than I do. Thx

[[li...]]

Thanks so much Anne!  I'm so sorry you are where you are. Wow--to be functional to go out and do things!  I had a few days of that earlier in the hold and when I was on the Ativan. I pray you are right that I will eventually stabilize because I would hate for this to be my new normal. The FB group I was in before told me when I was having worsening symptoms that a hold wouldn't help and I had to quickly updose from .9 to 1.25 to quickly pull out of it. It did get me out of the worst but the side effects got a bit stronger but I was more functional but only held for 24 days because they warned of tolerance. My husband and daughter keep telling me to hold and for some strange reason that's the feeling im getting. I hope to God Im right. I see the doctor at the end of the month and I can't be the way I am now-I drove to see him myself in May because I was feeling 75% to drive 😣.

Love you all

[[an...]]

Hi Liza,

 

I saw SG's reply to you.  He is so knowledgeable about this stuff.  It helped a lot to read it. Yes, I was feeling wonderful.  It is hard to be in this situation now.  I hope that it resolves soon.  I too was warned of tolerance when I went through my first taper.  Fortunately, that taper went very well and I was able to taper down with no problem.  I suppose the second time around is not as smooth.  I also believe my problems this time are due to being symptomatic when I started my taper.  Yes, the hold should get you to where you need to be.  It just takes patience and time. Driving is an issue with me as well.  My husband drives me everywhere.  I can usually drive when he is with me (unless I am experiencing symptoms), but when I am by myself I experience an uptick in symptoms which leads to a panic attack.  This is something that I need to work on, because I can go days without symptoms or minimal symptoms, but when I get into the car I am a mess.  The car is definitely a trigger for me, and with some work I should be able to overcome the fear.  It is not the fear of driving, but the fear of having an attack while driving which of course always leads to the panic. This is quite debilitating, because my blood pressure spikes, I get very lightheaded, have problems breathing, vision problems and everything else that goes with the panic. 

 

I do think you will stabilize.  Distraction and relaxation is helpful.  You will get there.

Anne  :smitten:

[[ba...]]

Highly recommend adding this short book to your database of solid tapering and wd information. Dr. Shipko is similar to Ashton, in that he was a prescribing psychiatrist, and came to see the harm of several medications, and this book mostly talks about benzos and antidepressants.

 

It's a very short read. It answered several of my questions, and actually encouraged me.

 

He differs from Ashton in some of his recommendations, based on his experience tapering patients. It is good to have more  solid medical reference for all of this.

 

based on his advice, I am going to stay consistent at 2 weeks (doses and times) before cutting. He really stresess that one needs to be there prior to tapering, not all over the place, which has been my modus operandi since I started the poison.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008H7XYNS/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o00_?ie=UTF8&psc=1#nav-subnav

[[li...]]

Are you going to keep holding then Anne?  I get what you mean about driving. I start to panic because I'm so fogged/drunk and my eyes can't keep up so I have no business driving and even get disoriented riding.

 

I talked to Dr Stuart Shipko by phone in 2010 when I was experiencing 6 months straight of horrid akathisia while tapering ativan too quickly. He told me he wasn't aware of akathisia in Benzo withdrawal and worked mostly to get people off ADs and when they had akathisia he would have them take a Benzo. Fail!

[[ba...]]

Are you going to keep holding then Anne?  I get what you mean about driving. I start to panic because I'm so fogged/drunk and my eyes can't keep up so I have no business driving and even get disoriented riding.

 

I talked to Dr Stuart Shipko by phone in 2010 when I was experiencing 6 months straight of horrid akathisia while tapering ativan too quickly. He told me he wasn't aware of akathisia in Benzo withdrawal and worked mostly to get people off ADs and when they had akathisia he would have them take a Benzo. Fail!

 

By Anne, do you mean me? Ouch on the shipping conversation. I am.going to hold for 2 weeks, this is about stabilizing. Will then decide what to do next. If I'm not stabilizing in the unrelenting anguish. Will probably hold longer.

 

Im at my wits end with the unrelenting anguish. As I have expressed.

 

 

[[an...]]

Are you going to keep holding then Anne?  I get what you mean about driving. I start to panic because I'm so fogged/drunk and my eyes can't keep up so I have no business driving and even get disoriented riding.

 

I talked to Dr Stuart Shipko by phone in 2010 when I was experiencing 6 months straight of horrid akathisia while tapering ativan too quickly. He told me he wasn't aware of akathisia in Benzo withdrawal and worked mostly to get people off ADs and when they had akathisia he would have them take a Benzo. Fail!

 

Hi Liza,

 

I will see how it goes for the next few days.  If things don't improve or if they get worse, I will most likely up dose a bit.  Being functional at work is my first priority. 

 

I hope you feel better soon. 

 

Anne

[[ly...]]

 

 

Baddove,

 

Glad you found some advice that you trust and can be confident enough to stop adjusting and hold.  Hope you begin to feel better and that two weeks is enough time.

[[Va...]]

Are you going to keep holding then Anne?  I get what you mean about driving. I start to panic because I'm so fogged/drunk and my eyes can't keep up so I have no business driving and even get disoriented riding.

 

I talked to Dr Stuart Shipko by phone in 2010 when I was experiencing 6 months straight of horrid akathisia while tapering ativan too quickly. He told me he wasn't aware of akathisia in Benzo withdrawal and worked mostly to get people off ADs and when they had akathisia he would have them take a Benzo. Fail!

 

By Anne, do you mean me? Ouch on the shipping conversation. I am.going to hold for 2 weeks, this is about stabilizing. Will then decide what to do next. If I'm not stabilizing in the unrelenting anguish. Will probably hold longer.

 

Im at my wits end with the unrelenting anguish. As I have expressed.

Hi BD. Hang on. Holding is not a walk in the park by any means. We want consistent progress during a hold but because of the non linear nature of withdrawal, you can feel good and then BAM! Sxs are back with a vengeance. Having gone through the experience I understand the difficulty in holding. I think it's just as hard as tapering except if you exercise the patience, you will be rewarded IMO. I gave up 6 months to the hold but I would do it the same way again. I honestly believe the holding is just as important in tapering as making the cuts. During withdrawal we tend to question the process of holding because we don't get immediate relief. It takes months and I understand how our human nature gets a twisted mindset that getting off as soon as possible is the only way to feel better. I believe it's how we get off, not how quick we get off that counts in the end. Just my thoughts. Try not to stress and just let the stabilization process play out until you feel decent. We can't stop the withdrawal but what we can distract to the best of our ability when sxs are bad. Remember the goal is to stay functional and jump with minimal sxs. Hope this passes soon! --V

[[Va...]]

Hi Liza,

 

I saw SG's reply to you.  He is so knowledgeable about this stuff.  It helped a lot to read it. Yes, I was feeling wonderful.  It is hard to be in this situation now.  I hope that it resolves soon.  I too was warned of tolerance when I went through my first taper.  Fortunately, that taper went very well and I was able to taper down with no problem.  I suppose the second time around is not as smooth.  I also believe my problems this time are due to being symptomatic when I started my taper.  Yes, the hold should get you to where you need to be.  It just takes patience and time. Driving is an issue with me as well.  My husband drives me everywhere.  I can usually drive when he is with me (unless I am experiencing symptoms), but when I am by myself I experience an uptick in symptoms which leads to a panic attack.  This is something that I need to work on, because I can go days without symptoms or minimal symptoms, but when I get into the car I am a mess.  The car is definitely a trigger for me, and with some work I should be able to overcome the fear.  It is not the fear of driving, but the fear of having an attack while driving which of course always leads to the panic. This is quite debilitating, because my blood pressure spikes, I get very lightheaded, have problems breathing, vision problems and everything else that goes with the panic. 

 

I do think you will stabilize.  Distraction and relaxation is helpful.  You will get there.

Anne  :smitten:

Anne, the weird thing about this experience is I've been able to drive throughout withdrawal although I probably shouldn't have lol.  It's odd that we can sometimes do more than we think we can. For some strange reason, driving is a distraction for me as it requires focus and concentration. I do believe the fear plays a huge role. I was petrified to drive but I didn't have a choice right from the beginning as my wife works nights so there is no way I could get out of it for my own work and being a taxi for my youngest daughter. You can always use an empty parking lot to practice.  --V

[[Va...]]

Are you going to keep holding then Anne?  I get what you mean about driving. I start to panic because I'm so fogged/drunk and my eyes can't keep up so I have no business driving and even get disoriented riding.

 

I talked to Dr Stuart Shipko by phone in 2010 when I was experiencing 6 months straight of horrid akathisia while tapering ativan too quickly. He told me he wasn't aware of akathisia in Benzo withdrawal and worked mostly to get people off ADs and when they had akathisia he would have them take a Benzo. Fail!

Liza, at the end of this hellish process we should set up a benzo withdrawal hotline (along with writing the book The Definitive Guide to Benzo Tapering) and have people talk to us. We are the real experts lol.  --V

[[be...]]

 

 

Baddove,

 

Glad you found some advice that you trust and can be confident enough to stop adjusting and hold.  Hope you begin to feel better and that two weeks is enough time.

Hi Lynn, how you doing? I just had my third glimpse of a dream, and sleep is better, still getting up early but never slept late, and I will tell you I am thinking that part of my Brain is healing, slow but I am alright with that being a "TURTLE"but it gives me hope that they will return in due time, patience and time, such biggies with this Process of Healing don't you think.

[[ly...]]

 

Hey begood!  So happy to hear from you!  Glad things are improving!  Take care and ttyl!  :smitten:

[[an...]]

Hi Liza,

 

I saw SG's reply to you.  He is so knowledgeable about this stuff.  It helped a lot to read it. Yes, I was feeling wonderful.  It is hard to be in this situation now.  I hope that it resolves soon.  I too was warned of tolerance when I went through my first taper.  Fortunately, that taper went very well and I was able to taper down with no problem.  I suppose the second time around is not as smooth.  I also believe my problems this time are due to being symptomatic when I started my taper.  Yes, the hold should get you to where you need to be.  It just takes patience and time. Driving is an issue with me as well.  My husband drives me everywhere.  I can usually drive when he is with me (unless I am experiencing symptoms), but when I am by myself I experience an uptick in symptoms which leads to a panic attack.  This is something that I need to work on, because I can go days without symptoms or minimal symptoms, but when I get into the car I am a mess.  The car is definitely a trigger for me, and with some work I should be able to overcome the fear.  It is not the fear of driving, but the fear of having an attack while driving which of course always leads to the panic. This is quite debilitating, because my blood pressure spikes, I get very lightheaded, have problems breathing, vision problems and everything else that goes with the panic. 

 

I do think you will stabilize.  Distraction and relaxation is helpful.  You will get there.

Anne  :smitten:

Anne, the weird thing about this experience is I've been able to drive throughout withdrawal although I probably shouldn't have lol.  It's odd that we can sometimes do more than we think we can. For some strange reason, driving is a distraction for me as it requires focus and concentration. I do believe the fear plays a huge role. I was petrified to drive but I didn't have a choice right from the beginning as my wife works nights so there is no way I could get out of it for my own work and being a taxi for my youngest daughter. You can always use an empty parking lot to practice.  --V

 

Valley,

 

I agree it is because of the fear that I am not able to drive.  I felt so normal over the last few weeks.  I was able to go into a store without the off balance feelings, high BP spikes, shakiness, etc.  It was like I was completely healed except for a few small annoyances.  I was able to do things that I could not do several months ago. Driving, as long as my husband is with me, has not been a problem.  But, as good as I felt, I could not get into the car by myself.  I believe that the fear of having an attack while driving is not directly related to the withdrawal or the drug.  It just so happens that when I was symptomatic  the symptoms sometimes got worse while driving. A few times this resulted in a full blown panic attack. At present, I relate driving by myself to an uptick in symptoms, and of course that brings on an attack. This is a problem that I have to work on.  Yes, driving around the block by myself or in an empty parking lot is a good idea.  A couple of years ago, I was able to drive regardless of symptoms--like you, I probably should not have been driving, but I had no choice, and I just did it. My husband and I now work at the same place, so I have become dependent on him to drive me to and from work and everywhere else. This has enabled me to give in to the fear of driving alone.  Once I feel better, I am going to work on this. It will probably take some time though.

[[li...]]

Builder is saying on microtapering group to updose to where I felt stable. I only felt relatively stable for a few days in September--2 1/2 weeks after the updose from 1 to 1.25 mg. felt really physically sick each time I updosed on ativan or klonopin but my fear and brain were better.). I had about five days where I could function in the afternoon but then I felt too drugged so started microtaper. I'm more confused and stressed than ever. Builder says you gotta pull yourself out of withdrawal quickly by updosing back to the last time you felt stable. I don't know where that is. If it's higher than 1.25 im screwed CUZ I think my body hates this drug

[[ba...]]

1.You will receive a body. You may like it or hate it, but it will be yours for the entire period this time around.

 

2.You will learn lessons. You are enrolled in a full time informal session called life. Each day in this school you will have the opportunity to learn lessons. You may like the lessons or think them irrelevant or stupid.

 

3.There are no mistakes, only lessons. Growth is a process of trial and error and experimentation, The failed experiments are as much a part of the process as the experiments that ultimately work.

 

4. A lesson is repeated until learned. A lesson will be presented to you in various forms until you have learned it. When you have learned it, you can then go on to the next lesson.

 

5, Learning lessons does not end, there is no part of life that does not contain its lessons. If you are alive, there are lessons to be learned.

 

6. “There” is no place better than “here.” When your “there” has become a “here,” you will simply obtain another “there” that will again, look better than “here.”

 

7.What you make of your life is up to you. You have all the tools and resources you need. What you do with them is up to you. The choice is yours.

 

8.Your answers lie inside you. The answers to life's questions lie inside you. All you need to do is look, listen and trust.

 

9.You will forget all this.

--unknown

 

[[li...]]

Anne--how much did you updose to pull out of it

[[an...]]

Hi Liza,

 

I up dosed from 0.168 mg to 0.204 mg.  It was about a 21% up dose.  The first day I went up to 0.250 mg.  It did not feel like it was working.  Because I did not want to taper from 0.25 mg if I was not going to improve, I then went down to 0.204 mg on the third day.  My plan was to get back down to 0.168, but I started to feel better after a few days.  Symptoms did not worsen, and I finally saw some improvement by the 4th or 5th day.  I still had twinges of symptoms for a while, but nothing like I had experienced before the up dose.

 

 

[[Va...]]

1.You will receive a body. You may like it or hate it, but it will be yours for the entire period this time around.

 

2.You will learn lessons. You are enrolled in a full time informal session called life. Each day in this school you will have the opportunity to learn lessons. You may like the lessons or think them irrelevant or stupid.

 

3.There are no mistakes, only lessons. Growth is a process of trial and error and experimentation, The failed experiments are as much a part of the process as the experiments that ultimately work.

 

4. A lesson is repeated until learned. A lesson will be presented to you in various forms until you have learned it. When you have learned it, you can then go on to the next lesson.

 

5, Learning lessons does not end, there is no part of life that does not contain its lessons. If you are alive, there are lessons to be learned.

 

6. “There” is no place better than “here.” When your “there” has become a “here,” you will simply obtain another “there” that will again, look better than “here.”

 

7.What you make of your life is up to you. You have all the tools and resources you need. What you do with them is up to you. The choice is yours.

 

8.Your answers lie inside you. The answers to life's questions lie inside you. All you need to do is look, listen and trust.

 

9.You will forget all this.

--unknown