How to ACTUALLY dissolve klonopin in alcohol?

[[Pa...]]

Libertas, I appreciate you illustrating the concept of a liquid/tablet hybrid taper, but without instructions on at what rate to taper the liquid portion it's somewhat useless.

 

Have you read my post on generating a liquid/tablet hybrid taper? The website I link to will generate a DMT using tablets and liquid, and the liquid can be any potency. You probably know about http://benzo.alwaysdata.net.

 

I chose to use a liquid for which 1ml = 1/4 of my current tablet size (with 0.5mg clonazepam tablets, that means I make a 0.125mg/ml solution). I explain why in the post, but basically it just makes reductions so much simpler to think about, and I only need a 1ml syringe with 100 gradations and a single pull to do a 1/4 pill substitution, titrate that liquid portion to zero over the days required and repeat. The website does the math for how much liquid to take each day and generates a spreadsheet. If the rate is too slow or too fast, I can just generate a new taper schedule, print and resume. This takes all the headache out of it for me and allows for both a custom liquid formulation, and any taper rate desired (although I suggest percentage based between 5-10% of course).

 

And some compounding pharmacies, like the one I work with, will make a benzo solution or suspension of any concentration you want, and in a wide variety of suspending vehicles or solvents (especially if you email them supporting medical literature  ). I'm trialing some compounded 0.125mg/ml solution currently, custom made to match my 30% ethanol homebrew but with pure clonazepam instead of tablets, basically to compare it my tablet recipe for efficacy. I'm a little paranoid since the homebrew was working perfectly, but so far I'm still alive and on day 5 of the trial doing a 6%/14 day DMT.

 

slownsteady,

 

I for one am grateful we have so many knowledgeable members willing to take the time to help RexV86, I hope he knows how valuable each of the contributions he's received are.  The fact that he's being offered different methods from members who are experienced and trusted is a bonus because as you know from personal experience, what works for one may not work for another. 

 

I'm sure RexV86 will find the right method for him, it may be trial and error like so many tapers are but having a variety of choices is paramount to a successful taper. 

 

Pamster

 

 

[[Re...]]

 

slownsteady,

 

I for one am grateful we have so many knowledgeable members willing to take the time to help RexV86, I hope he knows how valuable each of the contributions he's received are.  The fact that he's being offered different methods from members who are experienced and trusted is a bonus because as you know from personal experience, what works for one may not work for another. 

 

I'm sure RexV86 will find the right method for him, it may be trial and error like so many tapers are but having a variety of choices is paramount to a successful taper. 

 

Pamster

 

I AM ULTRA GRATEFUL everyone here taking the time to help me, and others that might stumble upon this as well... but like everything sometimes the more information you have, the harder it is to make a decision, I'm already experimenting here with some 151 everclear, but I find this powder always ends up at the bottom leading me to think I haven't dissolved it properly, and that maybe I dont have a small enough container to dissolve this thing...

 

Edit: Fixed quote.

[Guest [ba...]]

I'm still not understanding a good way to mix all this, I have these 10ml vials, but powder always ends up on the sides, and I'm not sure how I should be letting it dissolve correctly....

 

The powder you see are the fillers that are in the tablet.  They comprise 99+ percent of the tablet's mass.  You'd never see the klonopin in there - it's there in too small a quantity.  The fillers are often not soluble in water or alcohol.  It's often cellulose or something like that.  As long as the alcohol content is 30+ percent, I don't think you need to worry about the drug being carried away by the insoluble powder.  So I guess I'm saying to just ignore that powder and use the liquid.

[[da...]]

Just for comparison, I am doing a Xanax liquid micro taper only. I see sediment at the bottom as well. I shake it all up and draw from the syringe. My tapering is coming soon nicely.

 

Some folks do DMT. Some do cut-and-hold. Hope you can find a great tapering plan. Just know that every tapering plan is only a guide, and to let your symptoms and your body guide you. 😁

[[sl...]]

slownsteady,

 

I for one am grateful we have so many knowledgeable members willing to take the time to help RexV86, I hope he knows how valuable each of the contributions he's received are.  The fact that he's being offered different methods from members who are experienced and trusted is a bonus because as you know from personal experience, what works for one may not work for another. 

 

I'm sure RexV86 will find the right method for him, it may be trial and error like so many tapers are but having a variety of choices is paramount to a successful taper. 

 

Pamster

 

I completely agree. In hindsight I could have said more about the value of Libertas' example, and especially their mention of distinct phases of tapering which is something I've adopted informally and which I agree is a useful way to think about a full taper of something so potent as clonazepam.

 

I still think Libertas liquid tapering instructions are "somewhat useless"; I figured this was as intended. I believe the reduction of the liquid portion is the key to a safe taper rate; I don't find "small enough" to be sufficient guidance for these reductions; I meant to add to the example taper plan by indicating that there is a website that produces the exact liquid reduction amounts per intended taper rate.

 

Oh bother... 

 

I'm glad you're getting a buffet here RexV86! I hope you find something to your liking. 

[[Re...]]

I've stumbled across this which also took away a lot of my doubts...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZWya4iQvak5xRVu8ezFvEdaCNs42WHxe/view

 

 

AND I'm using the chart from SlowNSteady... because why do the math if someone else has already done it.. that thing is a God send... thanks for that!

 

(edit, this next part is irrelevant, as dissolution occurs at a molecular level, but I'll leave it here just in case others have felt the same way about it)

I've noticed no difference in leaving a 1mg pill in a 10ml jar with 5ml of 75.5% alcohol for 30 minutes and stirring ocassionally, and putting 3ml of 75.5% and stirring for 1 minute... Literally no "visible" difference, the particles all dissolved the same and the "filler" still looked the same. Apparently they say (or maybe yal have said it as well) that it is just "filler"...

(/finished edit part about molecular level dissolution, and not being able to "see it")

 

Today is my first day trying out my liquid taper. It's going to work, might take some tinkering, but I will get there... AGAIN SUPER GRATEFUL to have found all of you!

 

What I did in the end is this:

1. 0.3ML everclear + 1mg pill in 10ML "vial" with lid.

mix for 1 minute

2. Add 0.2Ml water

mix for 1 minute

3. Add .05Ml water

mix for 30 seconds

4. Let sit in fridge cause I had other stuff to do (but made 7 of these vials)...

5. Then I take 1 of these VIALS (and the leave the rest to do the next day) start the measuring stuff - add 90Ml water to this 10Ml solution and remove the taper from that (which left me at 85Ml)

6. Divide that into my 2 doses (I'm planning on taking around 0.425mg) so that is 42.5ML in 2 separate jars... Always stirring every step of the way with the syringe, just in case...

 

Hope it works.. If not then I'll try again with some other method...

 

Edit.. Maybe its an effect of stopping my Buspar cold turkey, but i feel a bit um... slightly tipsy from this solution.. maybe i put too much alcohol, or maybe i just didnt measure it correctly and ended up drinking more klono that I'm used too.. or maybe its my subconscious knowing that I have alcohol in the solution messing with me...

 

Further Edit: I'm going to go back to pills until I can get a pipette, and study more on how to ready syringes... apparently I didn't know if you fill the tip of the syringe you are making incorrect measurements? With a pipette, the tip is part of the measurement, so it would a lot easier on my non-chemist brain.

 

Final edit: I worked up the courage to make another batch, after I tried to cut the pills and weigh them and noticed everytime I weighed the same cut the weight was different on the scale. So it's like I'm still chancing it with dry form, might as well work towards the no pun intended "solution"... So I measured more carefully this time, and only used 0.2ml Alcohol with 1mg pill, but I let it do its thing way longer , like 3-5 minutes, and then added .8ml water, and let it sit some more and stir some more. I'm going to come out with 100ML at the end again because the math is just so much easier, and then split it into 2, and if I get something a bit off, I'll just add it to the "night" dose because my main thing is insomnia if I dose incorrectly, so I figure this might be safer. I'm going to HOLD a couple of days first to see if my body adapts to it well before doing the DMT. I finally realized DMT stands for daily micro taper...

[[Li...]]

RexV86: Apologies for cluttering up your thread with side-conversations. 

 

Slownsteady: You misunderstood the point of my post.  It was to provide a “big picture” overview of one approach RexV86 could use to taper.  I did this because he indicated he was having difficulty understanding the content you provided (as an aside, I also have concerns about your content but that’s another matter). If RexV86 had indicated interest in the approach, I would have followed up with suggestions on ways to determine what “small enough” reductions in dose might be in his particular case.

[[Re...]]

RexV86: Apologies for cluttering up your thread with side-conversations. 

 

Slownsteady: You misunderstood the point of my post.  It was to provide a “big picture” overview of one approach RexV86 could use to taper.  I did this because he indicated he was having difficulty understanding the content you provided (as an aside, I also have concerns about your content but that’s another matter). If RexV86 had indicated interest in the approach, I would have followed up with suggestions on to determine what “small enough” reductions in dose might be in his particular case.

 

No worries.. I think all the debate is ultra healthy and in the end the best thing, its good to know we don't all agree on this "homebrew stuff" which sure is based on science, but we aren't really chemists.... and that if some particular method doesn't work I can try another...

[[Li...]]

You have a great attitude, RexV86.  You are also spot on — there are far more unknowns than knowns when it comes to homebrew liquids.  Consequently, it is prudent to keep an open mind and proceed with caution.

[[sl...]]

Slownsteady: You misunderstood the point of my post.  It was to provide a “big picture” overview of one approach RexV86 could use to taper.  I did this because he indicated he was having difficulty understanding the content you provided (as an aside, I also have concerns about your content but that’s another matter). If RexV86 had indicated interest in the approach, I would have followed up with suggestions on ways to determine what “small enough” reductions in dose might be in his particular case.

 

Thanks for this clarity Libertas!

[[sl...]]

Hey RexV86; I read your method described above. I appreciate how you've adapted different techniques to your circumstances and understandings. It sounds like a discard method, with pre-made "charges" of alcohol, water and a dissolved tablet. I'm impressed by your creativity.

 

Syringes are funny. I know what you mean about the issue with the tip. I wrote instructions to clarify how to manage this little issue because I dose with an oral syringe, but I'll reiterate them here.

 

Basically since the medicine in the tip doesn't get ejected when you dispense the syringe, then the only issue becomes eliminating the air bubble that starts at the syringe tip and moves into the syringe body. I think this bubble interferes with an accurate measurement, so I either use a syringe adapter and bottle, or I draw a little extra liquid than what's needed, turn the syringe over and dispense the air out of the tip, then return the syringe over the medicine source and expel medicine until the syringe plunger is at my required measurement. The extra medicine in the tip can be ignored because it will remain in the syringe after dosing, so I consider the syringe readings to be accurate once the air bubble is gone.

 

BUT, since you're trying to preserve the body of liquid you're drawing from, then there is one more step. After I purge the syringe contents into the sink or wherever for a discard, there will be medicine in the tip. Pointing the syringe upward, I'd draw air into the syringe, then turn it over the medicine source and expel the medicine from the tip back into the source.

 

And after saying all this, I think the easier solution is to get a 100ml glass graduated cylinder. The kit I link to in my guide includes this size, as well as droppers. The dropper is all I'd need to remove a reduction, as I can read the results right on the side of the graduated cylinder and I can add or remove drops until it's perfect; no need to worry about pipettes or syringes. I'd just read the meniscus!

 

3ml of 151 per day, or 2.25ml of ethanol doesn't sound like much, but I take 0.3ml or less of ethanol once a day and it seems to give me a funny feeling.

 

It sounds like you're making great progress, while staying flexible and alert. Personally I'd be very wary about switching entirely over to a homebrew; that's why I take 92% of my daily dose as tablets.

 

I hope this helps! Keep up the great work. 

[[Re...]]

Hey RexV86; I read your method described above. I appreciate how you've adapted different techniques to your circumstances and understandings. It sounds like a discard method, with pre-made "charges" of alcohol, water and a dissolved tablet. I'm impressed by your creativity.

 

Syringes are funny. I know what you mean about the issue with the tip. I wrote instructions to clarify how to manage this little issue because I dose with an oral syringe, but I'll reiterate them here.

 

Basically since the medicine in the tip doesn't get ejected when you dispense the syringe, then the only issue becomes eliminating the air bubble that starts at the syringe tip and moves into the syringe body. I think this bubble interferes with an accurate measurement, so I either use a syringe adapter and bottle, or I draw a little extra liquid than what's needed, turn the syringe over and dispense the air out of the tip, then return the syringe over the medicine source and expel medicine until the syringe plunger is at my required measurement. The extra medicine in the tip can be ignored because it will remain in the syringe after dosing, so I consider the syringe readings to be accurate once the air bubble is gone.

 

BUT, since you're trying to preserve the body of liquid you're drawing from, then there is one more step. After I purge the syringe contents into the sink or wherever for a discard, there will be medicine in the tip. Pointing the syringe upward, I'd draw air into the syringe, then turn it over the medicine source and expel the medicine from the tip back into the source.

 

And after saying all this, I think the easier solution is to get a 100ml glass graduated cylinder. The kit I link to in my guide includes this size, as well as droppers. The dropper is all I'd need to remove a reduction, as I can read the results right on the side of the graduated cylinder and I can add or remove drops until it's perfect; no need to worry about pipettes or syringes. I'd just read the meniscus!

 

3ml of 151 per day, or 2.25ml of ethanol doesn't sound like much, but I take 0.3ml or less of ethanol once a day and it seems to give me a funny feeling.

 

It sounds like you're making great progress, while staying flexible and alert. Personally I'd be very wary about switching entirely over to a homebrew; that's why I take 92% of my daily dose as tablets.

 

I hope this helps! Keep up the great work. 

 

1. Yes , instead of focusing so much on syringes, I have noticed Beakers are much more friendly to me.. so I'm getting some more different size beakers to help so I don't have to fight these air bubbles all the time. AND thanks for the "tip" on the dropper, definitely grabbing one to try out, it does seem like it will resolve the problem.

 

2. I said it wrong I mean't to say 0.3ML... 3ML is definitely too much...

 

3. My tablets suck.. I have 3 different pill splitters, everytime they split wrong. I've tried using a razor, only made it worse. I have a scale, its inaccurate (at least the .001 values that we need) and its the same brand as every other chinese made scale on amazon.com... I've managed to cut down to .44 or what I think is .44 and hold for 2 weeks now but actually have no clue if its really .44mg, its just .5 with a bit of the tip cut off...

 

Thanks for the encouragement!

[[sl...]]

1. Yes , instead of focusing so much on syringes, I have noticed Beakers are much more friendly to me.. so I'm getting some more different size beakers to help so I don't have to fight these air bubbles all the time. AND thanks for the "tip" on the dropper, definitely grabbing one to try out, it does seem like it will resolve the problem.

 

2. I said it wrong I mean't to say 0.3ML... 3ML is definitely too much...

 

3. My tablets suck.. I have 3 different pill splitters, everytime they split wrong. I've tried using a razor, only made it worse. I have a scale, its inaccurate (at least the .001 values that we need) and its the same brand as every other chinese made scale on amazon.com... I've managed to cut down to .44 or what I think is .44 and hold for 2 weeks now but actually have no clue if its really .44mg, its just .5 with a bit of the tip cut off...

 

Thanks for the encouragement!

Gotcha! 0.3ml/day of 151 sounds much more tolerable; maybe on the light side for dissolving a milligram of clonazepam. Ultra2007 says he uses 2.5ml of 180 proof per 1mg of K; and he's been coming down from 6mg of K with this method for a long time.

 

I agree; razor blade pill splitters are garbage.

 

Did you check out the aluminum splitter I link to in my tools & techniques posts? There are a variety of them for sale on Amazon, they never go dull, and with flat round tablets stood on-end between the blades, I get perfect halves, and then perfect quarters. It's not how they say to do it in the instructions; the instructions say to lay pills flat, but I can't imagine that working. You'll see if you get one.

 

Honestly, why the razor blade pill splitters even exist confounds me. The aluminum one I have has saved my life.

[[Re...]]

hmmm i see now the "initial" recommendation was 2ml per 1mg of pill... and then even higher than that... idk why I thought it was .2ml... well... 20th time's the charm?

[[sl...]]

hmmm i see now the "initial" recommendation was 2ml per 1mg of pill... and then even higher than that... idk why I thought it was .2ml... well... 20th time's the charm?

 

I'm glad you're clear on that now; I think it's probably an important detail with clonazepams poor solubility. Honestly, I'm on my fourth DMT attempt, the last one finally worked, this new one is just much slower. But the first two... I had the most unexpected and disappointing outcomes.

 

In my first DMT attempt I turned out to be allergic to some ingredient in an MCT oil based suspension vehicle my compounding pharmacist used and got horribly horribly sick from day one.  The second attempt was with just pure clonazepam in pure MCT oil and basically it didn't feel like I was taking any liquid medicine, so it was just an accidental 7.7% cut-and-hold, which hit me really hard on day 6 or 7. Again, I feel very fortunate that I was only doing a liquid/tablet hybrid and not trying to switch over entirely to liquid or I suspect I'd have been bedridden; even pharmacy compounded options have issues.

 

My ethanol homebrew actually saved me symptomatically during that second attempt; I switched towards the end and felt infinitely better (it ended up as a tiny updose then 9% DMT back to tablets).

 

You'll find something that works for you, I know it.

[[Re...]]

Thanks for that SlowNSteady.... good to know it is a process..

 

Fortunately, (well hopefully), it worked and I did not suffer insomnia. Either that or I slept due to exhaustion since my AC went out and I had to unclog it till 1am (I usually sleep at 11pm)... We all know (from this forum) that WDS might not appear during the first day so I'm here positive mindstate that it did work and hoping for the best...

 

But I felt fine during the day as well yesterday with the suspension/solution hybrid (since it wasn't a true solution at that point)... but going forward I will definitely make my next batch with at least 1ml alcohol to cover the pills, especially since 0.3ml worked(but it didnt cover the pills), but then my other side is thinking: why fix what isn't broken, idk, maybe I just got lucky and mixed really well. My more scientific side says: yeah I rather not chance the molecules not being properly broken down next time so use at least 1ML of 151... then I'm gonna hold this amount for a week to see how it goes, before I start the DLMT.

 

 

[[sl...]]

I'm happy to hear you're staying positive! That can't hurt. 

 

Honestly, I know people have water titrated clonazepam. I'd never recommend it, but it's been done. Yes, it seems like at your ethanol levels you would have a suspension/solution hybrid. If you're not intolerant to ethanol, I suggest leaning towards the 2-3ml per mg of K, especially since you're using a bit less than 180 proof, but that's just anecdotal. A longer soak/dissolution time in the pure alcohol and tablet stage might also help. Just things to consider.

 

Holding for a week while doing your liquid method to make sure your system is working is brilliant! You have more foresight than I do. I really celebrate this careful approach; I think it will pay off in learning with less suffering.

 

You're doing awesome. 

[[Re...]]

I would also look at this https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/6021/pil#gref

 

Here there is a liquid solution that in every 5ml it contains 0.1g of alcohol(Clonazepam Rosemont Oral Solution contains ethanol (2.6% v/v alcohol).)

[[Li...]]

I would also look at this https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/6021/pil#gref

 

Here there is a liquid solution that in every 5ml it contains 0.1g of alcohol(Clonazepam Rosemont Oral Solution contains ethanol (2.6% v/v alcohol).)

 

For readers who are interested in such matters ...

 

The above formulation contains two solvents/solubilizers: Medium Chain Triglycerides (MCT) and 96% ethanol.

 

My understanding is that MCT is the primary solvent; the amount of 96% ethanol used is tiny — only 0.390 ml per 15 ml.

[Guest [ba...]]

I'm guessing they formulate this by making a 5 mg/ml klonopin solution in 95% ethanol, then diluting 50-fold with MCT oil (with trace flavorings added).  The numbers work.

 

I don't think there's any water in it.  Water and MCT oil would separate into two phases.

 

Trying to dilute directly into MCT oil is difficult due to viscosity.  Hence the use of the alcohol.  I'm pretty sure ethanol is miscible (or nearly so) in MCT oil.

 

If true, this wouldn't be difficult to make.  Since folks here would be making it from pills, I'd use a little more alcohol.  Maybe make a 2.5 mg/ml solution in 95%, then dilute 25-fold with MCT oil.  It would still contain only a very small amount of alcohol. 

[[sl...]]

I'm guessing they formulate this by making a 5 mg/ml klonopin solution in 95% ethanol, then diluting 50-fold with MCT oil (with trace flavorings added).  The numbers work.

 

I don't think there's any water in it.  Water and MCT oil would separate into two phases.

 

Trying to dilute directly into MCT oil is difficult due to viscosity.  Hence the use of the alcohol.  I'm pretty sure ethanol is miscible (or nearly so) in MCT oil.

 

If true, this wouldn't be difficult to make.  Since folks here would be making it from pills, I'd use a little more alcohol.  Maybe make a 2.5 mg/ml solution in 95%, then dilute 25-fold with MCT oil.  It would still contain only a very small amount of alcohol.

 

I haven't wrapped my head around this one yet; but how could a mixture of 95% ethanol and MCT oil not have water in it? 95% ethanol is 5% water...

[Guest [ba...]]

It's very little 95% (even less water).  The trace that is there might just sink to the bottom of the container.  Might not even see it.  We're talking 5 microliters (0.005 ml) of water per 5 ml MCT.  It might even disperse at that concentration (the small amount of ethanol should help).  Everything's soluble in everything to some extent.

[[sl...]]

It's very little 95% (even less water).  The trace that is there might just sink to the bottom of the container.  Might not even see it.  We're talking 5 microliters (0.005 ml) of water per 5 ml MCT.  It might even disperse at that concentration (the small amount of ethanol should help).  Everything's soluble in everything to some extent.

 

Interesting. Thanks for this clarification.

[[Re...]]

just thought I'd come in and give an update(I spent 3 days on .425 liquid to see if it I could get used to it and it worked nicely). Then I started last monday at 2x daily 0.42mg and today(Sunday) I'm at 2x .39mg .. for me its working, 1ML of everclear for 1mg of pill... I let them dissolve a good amount of time though like 5-10 minutes, sometimes more, than make 3 days worth of it (because its a time consuming process for me), so 3 is at my patience limit... I've felt no difference personally this past week and still sleep the same thankfully....

 

so 1ML everclear for 1MG pill, let it dissolve good amount of time,

than dillute it with 9ML of water shake shake shake,

dillute with 90ML of water..

take out the amount to discard...

than split the dose in 2 (since for me its 2x daily)

store it in 2 bottles..

thats it

 

I also take melatonin at night like .3mg usually, sometimes .6mg or .9, kinda feel it out how I'm doing that day, that seems to regulate my body to wake up when day light comes, usually around 7am, so then I go for a run (most days, but not all), some days just walk... and that has also helped to be really tired at nighttime (though I've also had days where I've done nothing but work at my computer from home and play video games and still slept the same)... I think one of the main things though, is I've developed a process of going to bedroom at 8pm, stretching, doing some breathing excercises, I still watch something funny to go to sleep, but screen time has not affected me... I try to turn everything off by 10:30 - 11pm but I'll also "feel it out" since I don't want to "force" myself to sleep if I'm not REALLY tired...

 

 

Might be a little fast for some , but again, I've been on this since March 26th so its not that long of a time...

[[sl...]]

Thanks for the update RexV86!

 

It sounds like you have a solution that's working for you. I'm glad you're able to make a few days in advance, and that you're feeling good using it. If you ever want to tinker with your recipe, maybe streamline your process with a concentrated solution or otherwise, let us know; I'd be happy to hash it out (PM me if I miss your post or thread). For now, I'm just really happy you've got a method that works!

 

Your melatonin doses sound on the money; my FMD was telling me recently that regular doses above 1-2mg/day have a risk of impairing the body's natural production of melatonin. I take 0.5mg/day myself, and have for almost a year now; it helps me get ready for bed at the same time every night. I think it's also neuroprotective.

 

It sounds like you took a 7.6% cut since last Monday.

How long are you waiting between reductions?