Jordan Peterson, take 2, let's stay on point, please

[[to...]]

Benzo withdrawal studies are few and far between and the interest in spending money to conduct them is even less. 

 

Pubmed shows 437 studies when you search for "benzodiazepine withdrawal".

 

Yes, and they're all on rats.

[[Ma...]]

Benzo withdrawal studies are few and far between and the interest in spending money to conduct them is even less. 

 

Pubmed shows 437 studies when you search for "benzodiazepine withdrawal".

 

Yes, and they're all on rats.

 

The comment I responded to didn't specify the species. But to help you understand this issue, this review summarizes the many human studies on this topic: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1611832

[[to...]]

 

If my car has broken down, I employ a car mechanic. Or maybe the bloke I met down the pub can fix it, but he's a non-expert. Do I take the chance? He could make it worse. He could make the car unsafe for me and for others. Now, medicine is exponentially more complicated than car mechanics - this is why there is such a high degree of specialisation, both in its development and in its delivery. Do I risk taking the advice of someone I met on the Internet or even some outlier medical institution with little to no supporting research? Your denial of expertise is ridiculous.

 

Outliers and quacks, who are more interested in notoriety or moving product than they are about safety and actual medicine, should not be who we seek out for help. They feed on desperation - do not give in to them. Such contrarians and chancers exist in all walks of life, which is why professions employ standards. Of course the pharmaceutical industry is finacially incentivised to over-emphasise the positives and down-play the negatives of their products: this is why we - imperfect as in may be - employ outside enforcement of standards.

 

There are plenty of car mechanics who are shit and who scam people out of money with fake repairs.  This applies to every profession in this world including doctors. 

 

 

 

[[pi...]]

I had a look at the initial study posted ramcon. the main one being the clinical trial.

 

Pros ->

- Low side effect profile (I'm worried about our community experimenting so this makes me feel better), low severity of side effects, dizziness and light headedness only things reported.

- Small number of people dropped out because of side effects. less than 5 if i recall and they were followed up well - they also found evidence of comorbidities that would explain side effects.

- It was a large sample size (n>30) so the results were statistically significant. a larger sample would be better for future studies.

-Clinical improvements were considerable "reduction in both frequency and severity of panic attacks and anxiety level was observed during the first three treatment sessions, and by the end of treatment the vast number of patients experienced complete resolution of panic attacks while anxiety symptoms decreased to a sub clinical level", this is promising for future research.

 

Cons:

- Industry funded by Nobilis Therapeutics, a company developing Xenon-based treatments for psychiatric disorders (at least they declared it) but still. not great.

- 3/5 of the researchers were also employees of this company. obvious biases there.

- cant find any citations yet - so far low impact. or their might be skepticism by fellow researchers because of the biases of the study funding and authors.

- no longer term follow up of the cohort, this is unusual, usually in a study like this patients would be followed over 6-12 months etc to see how they were going long term. I'm suspicious of why this wasn't included. maybe i missed it.

 

Obviously i cant tell you what to do guys and this is just my assessment of the evidence you posted. If it were me, i would seek out a professional researcher to appraise your evidence and give you their opinion. They would do a proper assessment of the entire literature and search for any other evidence.

 

Plus the study is not about benzo withdrawal

 

What!? So, a non-benzodiazepine study is being used to justify Xenon gas in the treatment of benzodiazepine withdrawal!? If this were not a medical issue, that would be laughable.

 

okay to cut this short, that argument is:

1. Irrelevant

2. Hypocritical

3. a common fallacy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

 

Irelevant - were not talking about withdrawal. We have withdrawn from benzodiazepines (ask maugham about the pharmacodynamics of benzos and how long it takes to get out of our system) this is talking about the as-of-yet unidentified benzo syndrome/injury etc that leads to what we have now where we suffer many years out. I dont think you fully understand this, because the studies about "benzo withdrawal" are about the withdrawal anxiety-related rebound effect that the studies show only last 2-4 weeks. Does that sound familiar?

 

Hypocritical -  your argument is like saying that a study about CBT therapy on anxiety levels has nothing to do with us because it wasn't dealing with' benzodiazepine withdrawal' specifically. Anxiety related illnesses fall under the same cluster of conditions in the dsm, treatments that affect one are broadly and routinely applied across the board to other conditions within the similiar area. i said Panic Disorder is within our area. accurate and logical. next

 

fallacy - arguments from authority are not always toothless but this one is. When an authority has credentials in that area that would show greater insight because they have expertise in that particular issue, than its relevant. But your referencing credentials from a authority source, that doesn't understand the illness we have any more than the general population. and in many instances, the benzo community is more informed and making evidence based decisions than the authority figures your pointing at. The vast majority of doctors receive about 3 power point slides in benzo training in the fog of medical school and it says, they are safe, they replaced barbiturates and can be used to treat anxiety and other conditions. only thing you might see is some rebound anxiety for 2-4 weeks post treatment. Even if you go to benzo specialists, who do they reference, Ashton and BB's sources. So sadly, authority wont save us here. Im not arguing for a free for all here. but you and maghum not acknowledging these legitimize points from people in this thread because they are not authority figures is ridiculous.

 

[[pi...]]

its about panic disorder which is within the syndrome of benzo withdrawal. but thanks for your input lol, ill put it with all the other glib statements that dont provide anything useful.

 

It is unrelated to benzodiazeopine withdrawal. We need it to be exact - it is not even close.

 

according to your logic, unless it came from research world, nope. therefore we cant be exact, we have no research that categorizes or compartmentalizes this. benzodiazepine withdrawal defines the 2-4 week period post cessation according to the literature. You cant stretch it to explain what we have. this is your standard remember, not mine.

[[pi...]]

Benzo withdrawal studies are few and far between and the interest in spending money to conduct them is even less. 

 

Pubmed shows 437 studies when you search for "benzodiazepine withdrawal".

 

and how many of those studies actually cover the syndrome of protracted suffering or injury post withdrawal. we have all withdrawn from benzodiazepines, as a pharmacologist you know Valium was out of my system in 2 weeks right?. so why are we still suffering. studies tell me i should of only had 2-4 weeks rebound anxiety. how can i trust anecdotes that everyone is still sick, heck how can i trust my own experience!  . the studies are telling me that benzo withdrawal last 2-4 weeks. Help!? how do i know whats happeneing in front of me without a RCT double blind trial over 20 years with follow up.  :sick:

 

okay jokes aside, you are overvaluing the authority power of medicine to inform you about this issue here. and the end result is you dont have much to back you up except a very very old, tired, point about arguments from authority which is a fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority). dont get me wrong, we should definitely use evidence based medicine research to inform our decisions. but theres very little there, so shooting down people exploring treatments outside the western medicine paradigm, whether its Russian, complimentary or alternative, seems more about your own biases and fears, than about anything else. because a reasonable perspective is worried about how in the dark we are, but understanding of people putting themselves out their to try.

 

Also, people who are brave enough to try something given how little we know, could very well end up being the people who find a treatment that benefits us all down the line - doesn't that make you feel grateful if anything. dude, show a little compassion. what people need is support, not snippy one liners that aren't even good points (as i think Ive demonstrated).

[[pi...]]

Plus the study is not about benzo withdrawal

 

Yes, thanks for pointing out the obvious.  Benzo withdrawal studies are few and far between and the interest in spending money to conduct them is even less.  Which is why we're here.  Which is why people are attempting to find a solution on their own.  Because this condition has been around for 80 years now and people are sick of waiting and hoping that some university group somewhere in the world will show interest and conduct further studies.  You can sit here and act condescendingly if you want.  People like you have been doing so since the dawn of time while more intrepid people find solutions to the worlds problems. 

 

I am entirely grateful for the people in this thread and others like it that are experimenting, that are attempting to learn more about our condition.  So long as I'm here, I will throw whatever support I have behind them.

 

[...] I am instinctively more inclined to believe the opinion of a pharmacologist (Maugham1) over laypeople - just a thought. [...]

First of all, credentialism is what got us all into this mess. "Here, take this drug, trust me it's safe. It was confirmed by double-blind placebo controlled study." The actual number of "medical professionals" who know anything about withdrawing people from psych drugs on this planet is very low. So, I would take your average BenzoBuddies or SurvivingAntidepressants forum member over average medical professional any day.

Secondly, it's very easy and doesn't really require any kind of expertise to be a cynic. You just go around and keep repeating yourself. But, the thing is, there's never, ever, going to be clinical research on psych drug withdrawal. Professor Ashton is dead. Professor Lader is dead. Unless some billionaire philanthropist decides to fund such research it isn't going to happen. Big Money holders just aren't into it. Governments aren't interested and drug companies are opposed. So, anecdotes and personal experience are all we've got.

 

If my car has broken down, I employ a car mechanic. Or maybe the bloke I met down the pub can fix it, but he's a non-expert. Do I take the chance? He could make it worse. He could make the car unsafe for me and for others. Now, medicine is exponentially more complicated than car mechanics - this is why there is such a high degree of specialisation, both in its development and in its delivery. Do I risk taking the advice of someone I met on the Internet or even some outlier medical institution with little to no supporting research? Your denial of expertise is ridiculous.

 

Outliers and quacks, who are more interested in notoriety or moving product than they are about safety and actual medicine, should not be who we seek out for help. They feed on desperation - do not give in to them. Such contrarians and chancers exist in all walks of life, which is why professions employ standards. Of course the pharmaceutical industry is finacially incentivised to over-emphasise the positives and down-play the negatives of their products: this is why we - imperfect as in may be - employ outside enforcement of standards.

 

the accurate version of that analogy would be if you had a foreign mystery car that no one had ever seen in america with issues and you asked the car mechanic to have a look. Remember this condition is NOT any old 'car' its a mystery car from out of now where, that no ones seen or understands or even recognizes. thats actually an accurate metaphor than.

 

Now your metaphor works let run it through, you go to your mechanic buddy and ask him to take a look. He scratches his head confused, and you say but wait, its just moving parts and electronics and mechanics right? didn't you learn about this is in mechanic school. he says nope, we didnt learn about that, but ill look into it. than he tells you hes jut gonna treat it like a local american car cause hes the expert right!, and at mechanic school, all cars get basic fixes like a,b,c which he will do. and surprise bloody surpirse, it doesnt work. so he throws his hand up, and says, it should work, anyways heres your bill i did everything they taught me at mechanic school.

 

Now your cars still broken and smokes coming out all the time etc.

 

Now you going to go back to that guy? or are you gonna look elsewhere?

 

You walk into a thread of people talking about going elsewhere and exploring other options to get it fixed right and Colin walks in and says. BUT WAIT! thats a terrible idea hes the authority source remember, he went to mechanic school!!!!!!! best you go back to him!!!!.

 

what do you think of colins advice? do you want to back to the mechanic?

 

Now your metaphor is accurate.

 

 

 

 

 

[[pi...]]

Ah, waking up excited to tune into this thread that gives me daily hope and intrigue only to see that it's once again been hijacked by repetitive, pessimistic word vomit that seems to continually ignore every single point of thorough, logical explanation and differing (yet clearly understandable, justifiable, and scientifically reasonable) opinion that's been reiterated on this thread and others a hundred times over...  Oh, and the irony of added credentialism now too, eh? On a benzo forum.  This just keeps getting better. 

 

*ignores*

 

Good luck today Pacenik and Having a mare!!! Please keep us posted on your experiences!!!

I have a connect in Australia who's getting xenon treatment in Australia this week as well, but for issues with CFS/ME. I'll report back on her experience too... Seems a lot of us having overlapping symptoms to those with CFS/ME; I know I do.

 

*returns to excitement*

 

agreed, good luck today pacenik and having a mare!!! rooting for you. yes and please keep us posted.

 

 

[[pi...]]

Benzo withdrawal studies are few and far between and the interest in spending money to conduct them is even less. 

 

Pubmed shows 437 studies when you search for "benzodiazepine withdrawal".

 

Yes, and they're all on rats.

 

The comment I responded to didn't specify the species. But to help you understand this issue, this review summarizes the many human studies on this topic: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1611832

 

yes let me add one more glib one liner to "help you understand" haha - great job maugham

 

heres a link to the free version of Dr Soykas article if anyone wants to read

https://medicinainternaelsalvador.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/tratando-la-dependencia-a-benzodiacepinas.pdf

 

your link has a pay wall dude *sigh*

 

oh hey look colin, maugham the pscyhologist linked a study on 'benzodiazepine withdrawal' that says "The  most  common  psychological  withdrawal  symptoms are anxiety and panic disorders" for people in 'benzodiazepine withdrawal". thats literally what you couldnt wrap your head around before in your post. thank maugham for linking to the proof you needed. goood news, now the xenon treatment is 100% relevant according to your standards. welcome to the discussion.

 

thoughts on article -> one small paragraph about 'withdrawal'. same old 2-4 week rebound anxiety blurb. Not one mention of how long withdrawal lasts, no mention of protracted nature of symptoms, no mention of injury or iatrogenic harm. But it does mention how addicts will doctor shop etc. I was prescribed for sleep and took for 6 weeks as prescribed. i didn't doctor shop and wasnt an addict. doesn't seem to be the same thing does it?, its almost like i might be seeking out someone more informed about whats going on with me. its almost like they have no idea what we are talking about and our experience doesn't seem to fit in their category of 'benzodiazepine withdrawal'

 

i think this article in learning about uncertainty in medicine is very relevant to you and Colin. and if you didn't study this principle in your education, it explains why your stressed and having issues with this sought of discussion, your professors failed you if they didn't equip you with the ability to handle the unknown in your medical considerations or opinions. in fact many in the health professions believe its such a big issue that they should be screening people based on this for medical school and any health related courses. Theres a school of thought that says dealing with ambiguity is an innate characteristic and some people cant be helped and should just be screened out of any health related professions cause they cant cope and then do harm to patients with their need to certain about everything. Im starting to see their point!

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6127608/

 

[[Sh...]]

Pamster...

 

As you can see the same thing has happened as the last thread we created now. Its completely derailed and its a whole lot of jibberish about nothing. Instead of giving me warnings for my behaviour. Take a look at how this thread got to this point.

[[Ma...]]

its about panic disorder which is within the syndrome of benzo withdrawal. but thanks for your input lol, ill put it with all the other glib statements that dont provide anything useful.

 

It is unrelated to benzodiazeopine withdrawal. We need it to be exact - it is not even close.

 

according to your logic, unless it came from research world, nope. therefore we cant be exact, we have no research that categorizes or compartmentalizes this. benzodiazepine withdrawal defines the 2-4 week period post cessation according to the literature. You cant stretch it to explain what we have. this is your standard remember, not mine.

 

Inaccurate. Ashton for example who published detailed protocols about benzo withdrawal acknowledges that withdrawal can last way beyond 2-4 weeks. Here is the Ashton manual for you: https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/,

[[Ma...]]

its about panic disorder which is within the syndrome of benzo withdrawal. but thanks for your input lol, ill put it with all the other glib statements that dont provide anything useful.

 

It is unrelated to benzodiazeopine withdrawal. We need it to be exact - it is not even close.

 

according to your logic, unless it came from research world, nope. therefore we cant be exact, we have no research that categorizes or compartmentalizes this. benzodiazepine withdrawal defines the 2-4 week period post cessation according to the literature. You cant stretch it to explain what we have. this is your standard remember, not mine.

 

It's not the research "world" that is important. It's the idea of the scientific method. Everything else, including xenon, is magical thinking.

[[Ma...]]

Benzo withdrawal studies are few and far between and the interest in spending money to conduct them is even less. 

 

Pubmed shows 437 studies when you search for "benzodiazepine withdrawal".

 

Yes, and they're all on rats.

 

The comment I responded to didn't specify the species. But to help you understand this issue, this review summarizes the many human studies on this topic: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1611832

 

yes let me add one more glib one liner to "help you understand" haha - great job maugham

 

heres a link to the free version of Dr Soykas article if anyone wants to read

https://medicinainternaelsalvador.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/tratando-la-dependencia-a-benzodiacepinas.pdf

 

your link has a pay wall dude *sigh*

 

oh hey look colin, maugham the pscyhologist linked a study on 'benzodiazepine withdrawal' that says "The  most  common  psychological  withdrawal  symptoms are anxiety and panic disorders" for people in 'benzodiazepine withdrawal". thats literally what you couldnt wrap your head around before in your post. thank maugham for linking to the proof you needed. goood news, now the xenon treatment is 100% relevant according to your standards. welcome to the discussion.

 

thoughts on article -> one small paragraph about 'withdrawal'. same old 2-4 week rebound anxiety blurb. Not one mention of how long withdrawal lasts, no mention of protracted nature of symptoms, no mention of injury or iatrogenic harm. But it does mention how addicts will doctor shop etc. I was prescribed for sleep and took for 6 weeks as prescribed. i didn't doctor shop and wasnt an addict. doesn't seem to be the same thing does it?, its almost like i might be seeking out someone more informed about whats going on with me. its almost like they have no idea what we are talking about and our experience doesn't seem to fit in their category of 'benzodiazepine withdrawal'

 

i think this article in learning about uncertainty in medicine is very relevant to you and Colin. and if you didn't study this principle in your education, it explains why your stressed and having issues with this sought of discussion, your professors failed you if they didn't equip you with the ability to handle the unknown in your medical considerations or opinions. in fact many in the health professions believe its such a big issue that they should be screening people based on this for medical school and any health related courses. Theres a school of thought that says dealing with ambiguity is an innate characteristic and some people cant be helped and should just be screened out of any health related professions cause they cant cope and then do harm to patients with their need to certain about everything. Im starting to see their point!

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6127608/

 

You didn't even quote the whole sentence just the beginning of it totally misrepresenting that article. Cherrypicking is not nice.

 

Here is the the entire sentence (and paragraph):

 

The  most  common  psychological  withdrawal  symptoms are anxiety and panic disorders, restessness and agitation, depression and mood swings, psychovegetative symptoms (e.g., tremor), reduced concentration, and sleep disturbances and nightmares.6,45-49 Appetite loss, tachycardia, blurred vision, and dry mouth may also be pres- ent, as may tinnitus, drowsiness, or derealization (a feeling that one’s surroundings are not real). Disorders of perception are relatively common and range from hyperacusis to photophobia to dysesthesia; these symptoms are not pathogno- monic but are characteristic of benzodiazepine withdrawal. Seizures are quite common, espe- cially if the agent is discontinued abruptly. Severe withdrawal symptoms include paranoid thoughts, hallucinations, depersonalization, and withdraw- al delirium. Tables 3 and 4 provide an overview of withdrawal symptoms.6,45,47,49

 

[[Ma...]]

Benzo withdrawal studies are few and far between and the interest in spending money to conduct them is even less. 

 

Pubmed shows 437 studies when you search for "benzodiazepine withdrawal".

 

Yes, and they're all on rats.

 

The comment I responded to didn't specify the species. But to help you understand this issue, this review summarizes the many human studies on this topic: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1611832

 

yes let me add one more glib one liner to "help you understand" haha - great job maugham

 

heres a link to the free version of Dr Soykas article if anyone wants to read

https://medicinainternaelsalvador.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/tratando-la-dependencia-a-benzodiacepinas.pdf

 

your link has a pay wall dude *sigh*

 

oh hey look colin, maugham the pscyhologist linked a study on 'benzodiazepine withdrawal' that says "The  most  common  psychological  withdrawal  symptoms are anxiety and panic disorders" for people in 'benzodiazepine withdrawal". thats literally what you couldnt wrap your head around before in your post. thank maugham for linking to the proof you needed. goood news, now the xenon treatment is 100% relevant according to your standards. welcome to the discussion.

 

thoughts on article -> one small paragraph about 'withdrawal'. same old 2-4 week rebound anxiety blurb. Not one mention of how long withdrawal lasts, no mention of protracted nature of symptoms, no mention of injury or iatrogenic harm. But it does mention how addicts will doctor shop etc. I was prescribed for sleep and took for 6 weeks as prescribed. i didn't doctor shop and wasnt an addict. doesn't seem to be the same thing does it?, its almost like i might be seeking out someone more informed about whats going on with me. its almost like they have no idea what we are talking about and our experience doesn't seem to fit in their category of 'benzodiazepine withdrawal'

 

i think this article in learning about uncertainty in medicine is very relevant to you and Colin. and if you didn't study this principle in your education, it explains why your stressed and having issues with this sought of discussion, your professors failed you if they didn't equip you with the ability to handle the unknown in your medical considerations or opinions. in fact many in the health professions believe its such a big issue that they should be screening people based on this for medical school and any health related courses. Theres a school of thought that says dealing with ambiguity is an innate characteristic and some people cant be helped and should just be screened out of any health related professions cause they cant cope and then do harm to patients with their need to certain about everything. Im starting to see their point!

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6127608/

 

You mention you were prescribed valium for 6 weeks. Can I ask you whether you went to the doctor and complained about insomnia. Did you ask for medication to treat your insomnia? If you were prescribed valium for 6 weeks, why did you take it for 6 months? Did the package insert talk about the potential for dependence?

[[Ma...]]

Pamster...

 

As you can see the same thing has happened as the last thread we created now. Its completely derailed and its a whole lot of jibberish about nothing. Instead of giving me warnings for my behaviour. Take a look at how this thread got to this point.

 

Ramcon1 created this thread. Threads evolve and that's totally fine.

[[ra...]]

Buddies,

 

I thought Mark Twain would inspire you.  I was trying to be polite.  It seems I need to be more direct.

 

Stop engaging Maugham.  You are only encouraging his beating down the spirit of this thread.  We are wasting pages of space and hours of effort that could be spent engaging the topic engaging his criticism of the existence of the topic.

 

JUST IGNORE ABSOLUTLY EVERYTHING HE POSTS.

 

And Colin, Jesus, you have been around the block a few times. You should know better.

 

Please, lets wait to see what Pace and Having have to say when they get back.  I will also have more to post in a day or 3.

 

Ramcon1

[[pi...]]

its about panic disorder which is within the syndrome of benzo withdrawal. but thanks for your input lol, ill put it with all the other glib statements that dont provide anything useful.

 

It is unrelated to benzodiazeopine withdrawal. We need it to be exact - it is not even close.

 

according to your logic, unless it came from research world, nope. therefore we cant be exact, we have no research that categorizes or compartmentalizes this. benzodiazepine withdrawal defines the 2-4 week period post cessation according to the literature. You cant stretch it to explain what we have. this is your standard remember, not mine.

 

It's not the research "world" that is important. It's the idea of the scientific method. Everything else, including xenon, is magical thinking.

 

wrong. its the idea of evidence based medicine. medicine isn't a science, its an applied science which isn't the same thing. Xenon like anything else is fair game as long as it follows the evidence based medicine approach.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3789163/

[[pi...]]

its about panic disorder which is within the syndrome of benzo withdrawal. but thanks for your input lol, ill put it with all the other glib statements that dont provide anything useful.

 

It is unrelated to benzodiazeopine withdrawal. We need it to be exact - it is not even close.

 

according to your logic, unless it came from research world, nope. therefore we cant be exact, we have no research that categorizes or compartmentalizes this. benzodiazepine withdrawal defines the 2-4 week period post cessation according to the literature. You cant stretch it to explain what we have. this is your standard remember, not mine.

 

Inaccurate. Ashton for example who published detailed protocols about benzo withdrawal acknowledges that withdrawal can last way beyond 2-4 weeks. Here is the Ashton manual for you: https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/,

 

yep inaccurate, this was colins logic and i was mocking it, maybe i was too subtle. it was inaccurate. i agree. take it up with colin.

[[pi...]]

i took it PRN (as needed) in 2 week blocks spaced 6 months apart, as prescribed. the package insert said take PRN just like the doctor ordered. end of story.

[[pi...]]

Benzo withdrawal studies are few and far between and the interest in spending money to conduct them is even less. 

 

Pubmed shows 437 studies when you search for "benzodiazepine withdrawal".

 

Yes, and they're all on rats.

 

The comment I responded to didn't specify the species. But to help you understand this issue, this review summarizes the many human studies on this topic: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1611832

 

yes let me add one more glib one liner to "help you understand" haha - great job maugham

 

heres a link to the free version of Dr Soykas article if anyone wants to read

https://medicinainternaelsalvador.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/tratando-la-dependencia-a-benzodiacepinas.pdf

 

your link has a pay wall dude *sigh*

 

oh hey look colin, maugham the pscyhologist linked a study on 'benzodiazepine withdrawal' that says "The  most  common  psychological  withdrawal  symptoms are anxiety and panic disorders" for people in 'benzodiazepine withdrawal". thats literally what you couldnt wrap your head around before in your post. thank maugham for linking to the proof you needed. goood news, now the xenon treatment is 100% relevant according to your standards. welcome to the discussion.

 

thoughts on article -> one small paragraph about 'withdrawal'. same old 2-4 week rebound anxiety blurb. Not one mention of how long withdrawal lasts, no mention of protracted nature of symptoms, no mention of injury or iatrogenic harm. But it does mention how addicts will doctor shop etc. I was prescribed for sleep and took for 6 weeks as prescribed. i didn't doctor shop and wasnt an addict. doesn't seem to be the same thing does it?, its almost like i might be seeking out someone more informed about whats going on with me. its almost like they have no idea what we are talking about and our experience doesn't seem to fit in their category of 'benzodiazepine withdrawal'

 

i think this article in learning about uncertainty in medicine is very relevant to you and Colin. and if you didn't study this principle in your education, it explains why your stressed and having issues with this sought of discussion, your professors failed you if they didn't equip you with the ability to handle the unknown in your medical considerations or opinions. in fact many in the health professions believe its such a big issue that they should be screening people based on this for medical school and any health related courses. Theres a school of thought that says dealing with ambiguity is an innate characteristic and some people cant be helped and should just be screened out of any health related professions cause they cant cope and then do harm to patients with their need to certain about everything. Im starting to see their point!

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6127608/

 

You didn't even quote the whole sentence just the beginning of it totally misrepresenting that article. Cherrypicking is not nice.

 

Here is the the entire sentence (and paragraph):

 

The  most  common  psychological  withdrawal  symptoms are anxiety and panic disorders, restessness and agitation, depression and mood swings, psychovegetative symptoms (e.g., tremor), reduced concentration, and sleep disturbances and nightmares.6,45-49 Appetite loss, tachycardia, blurred vision, and dry mouth may also be pres- ent, as may tinnitus, drowsiness, or derealization (a feeling that one’s surroundings are not real). Disorders of perception are relatively common and range from hyperacusis to photophobia to dysesthesia; these symptoms are not pathogno- monic but are characteristic of benzodiazepine withdrawal. Seizures are quite common, espe- cially if the agent is discontinued abruptly. Severe withdrawal symptoms include paranoid thoughts, hallucinations, depersonalization, and withdraw- al delirium. Tables 3 and 4 provide an overview of withdrawal symptoms.6,45,47,49

 

wrong. the rest of the paragraph aka the context doesnt change the point. cherrypicking is fine so long as it isnt misleading. you cherry picked that paragraph out of the article. do we need to upload the whole article print? of course not.

 

[[pi...]]

Buddies,

 

I thought Mark Twain would inspire you.  I was trying to be polite.  It seems I need to be more direct.

 

Stop engaging Maugham.  You are only encouraging his beating down the spirit of this thread.  We are wasting pages of space and hours of effort that could be spent engaging the topic engaging his criticism of the existence of the topic.

 

JUST IGNORE ABSOLUTLY EVERYTHING HE POSTS.

 

And Colin, Jesus, you have been around the block a few times. You should know better.

 

Please, lets wait to see what Pace and Having have to say when they get back.  I will also have more to post in a day or 3.

 

Ramcon1

 

yeah sorry.....the arrogance, especially when its WRONG!, seems to have triggered me. Ill stop.

[Guest [pa...]]

wrong. its the idea of evidence based medicine. medicine isn't a science, its an applied science which isn't the same thing. Xenon like anything else is fair game as long as it follows the evidence based medicine approach.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3789163/

If you check out wiki pages for most drugs it says: How it works is not entirely clear. Even for the old drugs like paracetamol. Medicine really isn't a science. From anthropological standpoint it's far closer to superstition, a collection of ritual practices to deal with specific symptoms. Witch doctors gave you Ayahuasca, modern psychiatrists give you SSRIs, neither of them knows how it works.

[[Co...]]

Buddies,

 

I thought Mark Twain would inspire you.  I was trying to be polite.  It seems I need to be more direct.

 

Stop engaging Maugham.  You are only encouraging his beating down the spirit of this thread.  We are wasting pages of space and hours of effort that could be spent engaging the topic engaging his criticism of the existence of the topic.

 

JUST IGNORE ABSOLUTLY EVERYTHING HE POSTS.

 

And Colin, Jesus, you have been around the block a few times. You should know better.

 

Please, lets wait to see what Pace and Having have to say when they get back.  I will also have more to post in a day or 3.

 

Ramcon1

 

1) The sticky notice for this board:

 

Hi,

 

Chewing the Fat is intended for all those benzodiazepine (and other drug) discussions that are not about "support". There is a distinct lack of good research regarding benzodiazepine use and withdrawal, but at the same time there is much disinformation too. It is fine to use this board to discuss your pet theories to see if they float, but you should expect strong rebuttals if your ideas do not hold water. References and citations are very much encouraged when posting ideas and rebuttals.

 

You might also discuss what happened to you and how this might relate to existing research. Again, you might discuss your own ideas too.

 

Where possible, scientifically supported information should be referenced, but as "Chewing the Fat" implies, floating ideas, sound or fanciful, are also welcome.

 

2) It is not your place to decide who can post what and to where at BenzoBuddies.

[[Co...]]

its about panic disorder which is within the syndrome of benzo withdrawal. but thanks for your input lol, ill put it with all the other glib statements that dont provide anything useful.

 

It is unrelated to benzodiazeopine withdrawal. We need it to be exact - it is not even close.

 

according to your logic, unless it came from research world, nope. therefore we cant be exact, we have no research that categorizes or compartmentalizes this. benzodiazepine withdrawal defines the 2-4 week period post cessation according to the literature. You cant stretch it to explain what we have. this is your standard remember, not mine.

 

Inaccurate. Ashton for example who published detailed protocols about benzo withdrawal acknowledges that withdrawal can last way beyond 2-4 weeks. Here is the Ashton manual for you: https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/,

 

yep inaccurate, this was colins logic. it was inaccurate. i agree. take it up with colin.

 

If you are using a study to support your view, the study should be on-topic. The study cited was on effects of xenon gas in the treatment panic disorder, not benzodiazpine withdrawal. So, absolutely - use only relevant studies to support your argument. Benzodiazepine withdrawal (syndrome) is not panic disorder.

[[Co...]]

There are plenty of car mechanics who are shit and who scam people out of money with fake repairs.  This applies to every profession in this world including doctors.

Doctors, and medical professionals in general are held to higher professional standards than car mechanics.