Jordan Peterson, take 2, let's stay on point, please

[[ra...]]

Colin,

 

Right now we have 3 pieces of evidence.  We have the two papers I posted in the first entry in this thread.  The first is "what" it does at the neurobiological level.  The second is a clinical trial of xenon for panic.  I do not think it is a stretch to connect what we feel to organic panic, even if you do not believe in the glutamatergic similarities.

 

The last, and probably most convincing piece of evidence is that it is used in a detox/rehabilitation facility overseas and in clinical trials for diseases of glutamatergic dysfunction in the US, as I have just posted.

 

It is actually very similar evidence to NAD+ in its early days, but I think has more potential as xenon does not have the histamatergic properties inherent to NAD+.

 

Is that enough to peak your interest?

 

ramcon1

[[Ma...]]

Colin,

 

Right now we have 3 pieces of evidence.  We have the two papers I posted in the first entry in this thread.  The first is "what" it does at the neurobiological level.  The second is a clinical trial of xenon for panic.  I do not think it is a stretch to connect what we feel to organic panic, even if you do not believe in the glutamatergic similarities.

 

The last, and probably most convincing piece of evidence is that it is used in a detox/rehabilitation facility overseas and in clinical trials for diseases of glutamatergic dysfunction in the US, as I have just posted.

 

It is actually very similar evidence to NAD+ in its early days, but I think has more potential as xenon does not have the histamatergic properties inherent to NAD+.

 

Is that enough to peak your interest?

 

ramcon1

 

I agree with Colin. All this thread has in it is speculation by laypeople, which we all are when it comes do benzo dependence, no evidence.

 

Two papers on anything is no evidence. Clinical trial on panic is no evidence either. Antidepressants work for panic but not benzo withrawal.

[[ra...]]

Maugham,

 

What we have clearly meets the definition of evidence.  No one here is claiming proof.  We are claiming it looks promising and is low risk.  Worth a look, no?  Are you hell bent on suffering for a long time, or just hell bent on making people hate you.

 

No one is forcing you to try anything, or even read what we post.  You feel it is your duty as a doctor to post that the things about which we post have not yet met the FDA approval for treatment for benzo withdrawal?  You think we don't know that?  It takes many, many years for that, and pardon us, we have lost our patience.

 

The problem with 99% of doctors is they forgot how science worked the day they started medical school.  To people like me, you are the laypeople.

 

Ramcon1

[[Co...]]

What is the basis for using xenon gas as a benzodiazepine withdrawal treatment? Will someone please point me to credible trials/research/literature.

 

Thanks.

 

Colin - If you read back just a page or two on this thread, I recently posted a detailed response to the same question you just posed; explaining our current interest and thinking regarding xenon & benzo withdrawal.

Colin,

 

Right now we have 3 pieces of evidence.  We have the two papers I posted in the first entry in this thread.  The first is "what" it does at the neurobiological level.  The second is a clinical trial of xenon for panic.  I do not think it is a stretch to connect what we feel to organic panic, even if you do not believe in the glutamatergic similarities.

 

The last, and probably most convincing piece of evidence is that it is used in a detox/rehabilitation facility overseas and in clinical trials for diseases of glutamatergic dysfunction in the US, as I have just posted.

 

It is actually very similar evidence to NAD+ in its early days, but I think has more potential as xenon does not have the histamatergic properties inherent to NAD+.

 

Is that enough to peak your interest?

 

ramcon1

 

Well, the thread is, apparently, about 'Jordan Peterson'. So, I was not expecting anything in the opening post to answer my question.   Rather ironic too, given the full title for this thread: Jordan Peterson, take 2, let's stay on point, please.   Unless the title is meant to suggest: wherever Jordan goes, we will follow!    But thank you both anyway for pointing me in the right direction - it is appreciated.

 

I hope that Maugham is wrong and that members are not planning to go to Siberia based on one study and a whole lot of speculation. I know I am old fashioned and all, but I am instinctively more inclined to believe the opinion of a pharmacologist (Maugham1) over laypeople - just a thought. I'll review the study and other links tomorrow.

 

And, it is an unfortunate fact that in many jurisdictions, there are 'medical' institutions which offer highly dubious medicine and treatments. If this is true of the US (which it is, and I know far better than Russia) - and the fact that Russia is hardly known for being a stickler for adhering to rule of law, rules and stuff - my natural skepticism will tend to ratchet up.

[[ra...]]

Colin,

 

My intent was to keep the topic about those treatments that Dr. Peterson may have received.  The previous thread went down the path of AD, AS and a lot of things that seemed irrelevant tangents.  Plus, we simply wanted to move where our ideas would not be put down with no other reason than, "because it is not FDA approved for benzo recovery."  Nothing is, and we know that.

 

There are people on the board in this thread who live within a reasonable distance of getting xenon treatments is Serbia and the Czech Republic, not Siberia.  And we need people willing to try stuff, or we will be sick for a very, very long time, if not forever.  I am not blaming individual psychopharmacologists, but the practice of their "branch of medicine" is what got most of us here in the first place.

 

I will remain hopeful that procedures shown in papers to have a potential mechanism to help, along with others with an iota of clinical success, and add to that acceptance in foreign countries will help us out of the mess that our compliance with psychopharmacology caused.

 

Ramcon1

[[Sh...]]

Colin,

 

Anecdotal reports are enough for some people. I dont need to see extensive research and studies proving things. As ive said previously, if i did not take the plunge on nad+ i would still be polydrugged suffering horribly !

[[pi...]]

Colin,

 

Right now we have 3 pieces of evidence.  We have the two papers I posted in the first entry in this thread.  The first is "what" it does at the neurobiological level.  The second is a clinical trial of xenon for panic.  I do not think it is a stretch to connect what we feel to organic panic, even if you do not believe in the glutamatergic similarities.

 

The last, and probably most convincing piece of evidence is that it is used in a detox/rehabilitation facility overseas and in clinical trials for diseases of glutamatergic dysfunction in the US, as I have just posted.

 

It is actually very similar evidence to NAD+ in its early days, but I think has more potential as xenon does not have the histamatergic properties inherent to NAD+.

 

Is that enough to peak your interest?

 

ramcon1

 

I agree with Colin. All this thread has in it is speculation by laypeople, which we all are when it comes do benzo dependence, no evidence.

 

Two papers on anything is no evidence. Clinical trial on panic is no evidence either. Antidepressants work for panic but not benzo withrawal.

 

why dont you review the evidence they offer? I'm assuming pharmacologists get some education in literature review.

[[pi...]]

I had a look at the initial study posted ramcon. the main one being the clinical trial.

 

Pros ->

- Low side effect profile (I'm worried about our community experimenting so this makes me feel better), low severity of side effects, dizziness and light headedness only things reported.

- Small number of people dropped out because of side effects. less than 5 if i recall and they were followed up well - they also found evidence of comorbidities that would explain side effects.

- It was a large sample size (n>30) so the results were statistically significant. a larger sample would be better for future studies.

-Clinical improvements were considerable "reduction in both frequency and severity of panic attacks and anxiety level was observed during the first three treatment sessions, and by the end of treatment the vast number of patients experienced complete resolution of panic attacks while anxiety symptoms decreased to a sub clinical level", this is promising for future research.

 

Cons:

- Industry funded by Nobilis Therapeutics, a company developing Xenon-based treatments for psychiatric disorders (at least they declared it) but still. not great.

- 3/5 of the researchers were also employees of this company. obvious biases there.

- cant find any citations yet - so far low impact. or their might be skepticism by fellow researchers because of the biases of the study funding and authors.

- no longer term follow up of the cohort, this is unusual, usually in a study like this patients would be followed over 6-12 months etc to see how they were going long term. I'm suspicious of why this wasn't included. maybe i missed it.

 

Obviously i cant tell you what to do guys and this is just my assessment of the evidence you posted. If it were me, i would seek out a professional researcher to appraise your evidence and give you their opinion. They would do a proper assessment of the entire literature and search for any other evidence.

[[Ma...]]

I had a look at the initial study posted ramcon. the main one being the clinical trial.

 

Pros ->

- Low side effect profile (I'm worried about our community experimenting so this makes me feel better), low severity of side effects, dizziness and light headedness only things reported.

- Small number of people dropped out because of side effects. less than 5 if i recall and they were followed up well - they also found evidence of comorbidities that would explain side effects.

- It was a large sample size (n>30) so the results were statistically significant. a larger sample would be better for future studies.

-Clinical improvements were considerable "reduction in both frequency and severity of panic attacks and anxiety level was observed during the first three treatment sessions, and by the end of treatment the vast number of patients experienced complete resolution of panic attacks while anxiety symptoms decreased to a sub clinical level", this is promising for future research.

 

Cons:

- Industry funded by Nobilis Therapeutics, a company developing Xenon-based treatments for psychiatric disorders (at least they declared it) but still. not great.

- 3/5 of the researchers were also employees of this company. obvious biases there.

- cant find any citations yet - so far low impact. or their might be skepticism by fellow researchers because of the biases of the study funding and authors.

- no longer term follow up of the cohort, this is unusual, usually in a study like this patients would be followed over 6-12 months etc to see how they were going long term. I'm suspicious of why this wasn't included. maybe i missed it.

 

Obviously i cant tell you what to do guys and this is just my assessment of the evidence you posted. If it were me, i would seek out a professional researcher to appraise your evidence and give you their opinion. They would do a proper assessment of the entire literature and search for any other evidence.

 

Plus the study is not about benzo withdrawal

[[pi...]]

I had a look at the initial study posted ramcon. the main one being the clinical trial.

 

Pros ->

- Low side effect profile (I'm worried about our community experimenting so this makes me feel better), low severity of side effects, dizziness and light headedness only things reported.

- Small number of people dropped out because of side effects. less than 5 if i recall and they were followed up well - they also found evidence of comorbidities that would explain side effects.

- It was a large sample size (n>30) so the results were statistically significant. a larger sample would be better for future studies.

-Clinical improvements were considerable "reduction in both frequency and severity of panic attacks and anxiety level was observed during the first three treatment sessions, and by the end of treatment the vast number of patients experienced complete resolution of panic attacks while anxiety symptoms decreased to a sub clinical level", this is promising for future research.

 

Cons:

- Industry funded by Nobilis Therapeutics, a company developing Xenon-based treatments for psychiatric disorders (at least they declared it) but still. not great.

- 3/5 of the researchers were also employees of this company. obvious biases there.

- cant find any citations yet - so far low impact. or their might be skepticism by fellow researchers because of the biases of the study funding and authors.

- no longer term follow up of the cohort, this is unusual, usually in a study like this patients would be followed over 6-12 months etc to see how they were going long term. I'm suspicious of why this wasn't included. maybe i missed it.

 

Obviously i cant tell you what to do guys and this is just my assessment of the evidence you posted. If it were me, i would seek out a professional researcher to appraise your evidence and give you their opinion. They would do a proper assessment of the entire literature and search for any other evidence.

 

Plus the study is not about benzo withdrawal

 

its about panic disorder which is within the syndrome of benzo withdrawal. but thanks for your input lol, ill put it with all the other glib statements that dont provide anything useful.

[[to...]]

Plus the study is not about benzo withdrawal

 

Yes, thanks for pointing out the obvious.  Benzo withdrawal studies are few and far between and the interest in spending money to conduct them is even less.  Which is why we're here.  Which is why people are attempting to find a solution on their own.  Because this condition has been around for 80 years now and people are sick of waiting and hoping that some university group somewhere in the world will show interest and conduct further studies.  You can sit here and act condescendingly if you want.  People like you have been doing so since the dawn of time while more intrepid people find solutions to the worlds problems. 

 

I am entirely grateful for the people in this thread and others like it that are experimenting, that are attempting to learn more about our condition.  So long as I'm here, I will throw whatever support I have behind them. 

[Guest [pa...]]

[...] I am instinctively more inclined to believe the opinion of a pharmacologist (Maugham1) over laypeople - just a thought. [...]

First of all, credentialism is what got us all into this mess. "Here, take this drug, trust me it's safe. It was confirmed by double-blind placebo controlled study." The actual number of "medical professionals" who know anything about withdrawing people from psych drugs on this planet is very low. So, I would take your average BenzoBuddies or SurvivingAntidepressants forum member over average medical professional any day.

Secondly, it's very easy and doesn't really require any kind of expertise to be a cynic. You just go around and keep repeating yourself. But, the thing is, there's never, ever, going to be clinical research on psych drug withdrawal. Professor Ashton is dead. Professor Lader is dead. Unless some billionaire philanthropist decides to fund such research it isn't going to happen. Big Money holders just aren't into it. Governments aren't interested and drug companies are opposed. So, anecdotes and personal experience are all we've got.

[[Ca...]]

What about those of us that are fatigued not panicked..??

 

I thought of this..!!??

We all know “Bottle Fed” gets ones wheels spinnin’..

Direct Port injection or Fogger Plate, you’ll be laughing in no time..!!

 

Oh, dont even ask where my mind has wandered, the “conflict” must have addled my brain ...

 

 

[[Co...]]

Colin,

 

My intent was to keep the topic about those treatments that Dr. Peterson may have received.  The previous thread went down the path of AD, AS and a lot of things that seemed irrelevant tangents.  Plus, we simply wanted to move where our ideas would not be put down with no other reason than, "because it is not FDA approved for benzo recovery."  Nothing is, and we know that.

 

Just a small jibe at the ill-descript title.

 

There are people on the board in this thread who live within a reasonable distance of getting xenon treatments is Serbia and the Czech Republic, not Siberia.  And we need people willing to try stuff, or we will be sick for a very, very long time, if not forever.  I am not blaming individual psychopharmacologists, but the practice of their "branch of medicine" is what got most of us here in the first place.

 

How far someone might be willing to visit the clinic is not the most salient issue here. [Aside: Ah. Rereading your post, going back to mine and the posts before, I misread - Serbia, not Siberia. I have no idea of the standards of regulation in healthcare in Serbia, adherence to law, etc. I stand corrected.] But, my point stands: the distance to the clinic is not what's important here.

 

I will remain hopeful that procedures shown in papers to have a potential mechanism to help, along with others with an iota of clinical success, and add to that acceptance in foreign countries will help us out of the mess that our compliance with psychopharmacology caused.

 

Ramcon1

 

I'll look at the studies you referenced later today. Thanks.

[[Co...]]

Colin,

 

Anecdotal reports are enough for some people. I dont need to see extensive research and studies proving things. As ive said previously, if i did not take the plunge on nad+ i would still be polydrugged suffering horribly !

 

They shouldn't be. We all are prone to confirmational biases. Anecdote is fine as a starting point to a thorough investigation (double-blind study). Sometimes (and very often) the use of anecdote as the basis of medical treatments leads to very negative outcomes (injury or even death). That's why it is not (or should not) be used in medicine.

[[Co...]]

I had a look at the initial study posted ramcon. the main one being the clinical trial.

 

Pros ->

- Low side effect profile (I'm worried about our community experimenting so this makes me feel better), low severity of side effects, dizziness and light headedness only things reported.

- Small number of people dropped out because of side effects. less than 5 if i recall and they were followed up well - they also found evidence of comorbidities that would explain side effects.

- It was a large sample size (n>30) so the results were statistically significant. a larger sample would be better for future studies.

-Clinical improvements were considerable "reduction in both frequency and severity of panic attacks and anxiety level was observed during the first three treatment sessions, and by the end of treatment the vast number of patients experienced complete resolution of panic attacks while anxiety symptoms decreased to a sub clinical level", this is promising for future research.

 

Cons:

- Industry funded by Nobilis Therapeutics, a company developing Xenon-based treatments for psychiatric disorders (at least they declared it) but still. not great.

- 3/5 of the researchers were also employees of this company. obvious biases there.

- cant find any citations yet - so far low impact. or their might be skepticism by fellow researchers because of the biases of the study funding and authors.

- no longer term follow up of the cohort, this is unusual, usually in a study like this patients would be followed over 6-12 months etc to see how they were going long term. I'm suspicious of why this wasn't included. maybe i missed it.

 

Obviously i cant tell you what to do guys and this is just my assessment of the evidence you posted. If it were me, i would seek out a professional researcher to appraise your evidence and give you their opinion. They would do a proper assessment of the entire literature and search for any other evidence.

 

Plus the study is not about benzo withdrawal

 

What!? So, a non-benzodiazepine study is being used to justify Xenon gas in the treatment of benzodiazepine withdrawal!? If this were not a medical issue, that would be laughable.

[[Co...]]

its about panic disorder which is within the syndrome of benzo withdrawal. but thanks for your input lol, ill put it with all the other glib statements that dont provide anything useful.

 

It is unrelated to benzodiazeopine withdrawal. We need it to be exact - it is not even close.

[[Ma...]]

Benzo withdrawal studies are few and far between and the interest in spending money to conduct them is even less. 

 

Pubmed shows 437 studies when you search for "benzodiazepine withdrawal".

[[Ma...]]

Colin,

 

Anecdotal reports are enough for some people. I dont need to see extensive research and studies proving things. As ive said previously, if i did not take the plunge on nad+ i would still be polydrugged suffering horribly !

 

They shouldn't be. We all are prone to confirmational biases. Anecdote is fine as a starting point to a thorough investigation (double-blind study). Sometimes (and very often) the use of anecdote as the basis of medical treatments leads to very negative outcomes (injury or even death). That's why it is not (or should) be used in medicine.

 

A very recent example being hydroxychloroquine for COVID: https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-cautions-against-use-hydroxychloroquine-or-chloroquine-covid-19-outside-hospital-setting-or

[[Ma...]]

Maugham,

 

What we have clearly meets the definition of evidence.  No one here is claiming proof.  We are claiming it looks promising and is low risk.  Worth a look, no?  Are you hell bent on suffering for a long time, or just hell bent on making people hate you.

 

No one is forcing you to try anything, or even read what we post.  You feel it is your duty as a doctor to post that the things about which we post have not yet met the FDA approval for treatment for benzo withdrawal?  You think we don't know that?  It takes many, many years for that, and pardon us, we have lost our patience.

 

The problem with 99% of doctors is they forgot how science worked the day they started medical school.  To people like me, you are the laypeople.

 

Ramcon1

 

I never mentioned FDA-approval. Please be accurate.

[[Co...]]

Plus the study is not about benzo withdrawal

 

Yes, thanks for pointing out the obvious.  Benzo withdrawal studies are few and far between and the interest in spending money to conduct them is even less.  Which is why we're here.  Which is why people are attempting to find a solution on their own.  Because this condition has been around for 80 years now and people are sick of waiting and hoping that some university group somewhere in the world will show interest and conduct further studies.  You can sit here and act condescendingly if you want.  People like you have been doing so since the dawn of time while more intrepid people find solutions to the worlds problems. 

 

I am entirely grateful for the people in this thread and others like it that are experimenting, that are attempting to learn more about our condition.  So long as I'm here, I will throw whatever support I have behind them.

 

[...] I am instinctively more inclined to believe the opinion of a pharmacologist (Maugham1) over laypeople - just a thought. [...]

First of all, credentialism is what got us all into this mess. "Here, take this drug, trust me it's safe. It was confirmed by double-blind placebo controlled study." The actual number of "medical professionals" who know anything about withdrawing people from psych drugs on this planet is very low. So, I would take your average BenzoBuddies or SurvivingAntidepressants forum member over average medical professional any day.

Secondly, it's very easy and doesn't really require any kind of expertise to be a cynic. You just go around and keep repeating yourself. But, the thing is, there's never, ever, going to be clinical research on psych drug withdrawal. Professor Ashton is dead. Professor Lader is dead. Unless some billionaire philanthropist decides to fund such research it isn't going to happen. Big Money holders just aren't into it. Governments aren't interested and drug companies are opposed. So, anecdotes and personal experience are all we've got.

 

If my car has broken down, I employ a car mechanic. Or maybe the bloke I met down the pub can fix it, but he's a non-expert. Do I take the chance? He could make it worse. He could make the car unsafe for me and for others. Now, medicine is exponentially more complicated than car mechanics - this is why there is such a high degree of specialisation, both in its development and in its delivery. Do I risk taking the advice of someone I met on the Internet or even some outlier medical institution with little to no supporting research? Your denial of expertise is ridiculous.

 

Outliers and quacks, who are more interested in notoriety or moving product than they are about safety and actual medicine, should not be who we seek out for help. They feed on desperation - do not give in to them. Such contrarians and chancers exist in all walks of life, which is why professions employ standards. Of course the pharmaceutical industry is finacially incentivised to over-emphasise the positives and down-play the negatives of their products: this is why we - imperfect as in may be - employ outside enforcement of standards.

[[...]]

Ah, waking up excited to tune into this thread that gives me daily hope and intrigue only to see that it's once again been hijacked by repetitive, pessimistic word vomit that seems to continually ignore every single point of thorough, logical explanation and differing (yet clearly understandable, justifiable, and scientifically reasonable) opinion that's been reiterated on this thread and others a hundred times over...  Oh, and the irony of added credentialism now too, eh? On a benzo forum.  This just keeps getting better. 

 

*ignores*

 

Good luck today Pacenik and Having a mare!!! Please keep us posted on your experiences!!!

I have a connect in Australia who's getting xenon treatment in Australia this week as well, but for issues with CFS/ME. I'll report back on her experience too... Seems a lot of us having overlapping symptoms to those with CFS/ME; I know I do.

 

*returns to excitement*

[[ra...]]

Dear Buddies,

 

I have a few favorite quotes. Here's one:

 

"Never argue with an idiot.  He will drag you down to his level, and beat you with experience."

Mark Twain

 

I am done arguing.

 

Ramcon1

[[be...]]

Hello all,

 

I've been creepin' on this thread, and am a fan of this particular board in general. What drew me here are novel ideas and interesting theories about how to help ourselves from this dastardly place we've ended up. As both an accidental and real addict, I've seen the desperation of my predicament from both sides of the blame coin: I blame myself for years of reckless behavior, and I blame doctors and pharma for their reckless endangering of my well being with their psych drugs.

 

What I love about this thread in particular is that it is centered around the topic of hope in the form of alternative therapies. Even if we don't know exactly the nature of our predicament, I think it is so uplifting to dream of a new therapy that could help at least one person reduce the suffering quicker

 

There are a few voices in this particular thread that I think are trying to bring some skeptical approach to these alternative therapies. While I think healthy skepticism is good for us (I mean, hell, I'm skeptical of just about everything now!), I don't find these particular voices to be forward-thinking in the spirit of this thread. This thread is about novel treatments outside of accepted pharmacology. The naysayers here are nothing but a drone of conventionality. I personally don't believe this thread is the right place for voices with the pure intention of naysaying for naysaying's sake. It would be much better to if skeptics in this thread could be hopeful, at the very least. Instead, they are combative and aggressive. That's too bad. It's too bad they don't understand their particular skepticism and combativeness is unwelcome here by those who are more hopeful.

 

In any case, I'm following this thread. Xenon therapy does seem pretty cool, and does show some promising benefits for some forms of brain injury, even if not for our particular type.

[[...]]

Hi, beingthere!

 

Welcome to chewing the fat  You're in (mostly) good company here with your sentiments and perception.

And I think I speak for (most) everyone that frequents these threads when I say I appreciate your positivity and hopefulness.

 

...speaking of positive, everyone checking out pacenik's 'Metamorphosis'?

 

Started out pretty Kafkaesque, yes... But, as stated in the aforementioned thread, I'd say all is well that ends well.

Sounds like a pretty good (and very interesting) start to me... I hope the positivity continues!