Wanting help with direct taper of Lorazepam

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OK, great.  Thank you! I want to hold for a few days to a week at that dose, since I suspect my actual dosing has been pretty uneven.  Once I am ready to taper again, what is the smallest reasonable reduction I could make? And is it reasonable to make very small reductions and hold for a bit after each one, or is it better to make the tiny reductions and keep doing so daily, or until you hit a bad patch and need to hold for a while? (I hope that question made sense).

 

Thanks again,

 

Haimona

The question is perfect and is the best question.  It is also a slippery question.

 

The smallest change you scale will detect is 0.001 (since you only have 3 digits after the decimal point).  Does that make sense to you?

 

If so, read on.

 

So for your current 0.3125mg dose, you are weighing 0.037 grams on your scale.  If you next reduce by 0.001g, you will weigh 0.036 grams.

That is a 2.7% reduction.

Do that and hold for one week.

If you are stable, then drop another 0.001 grams (to 0.035 grams) and hold again for a week.

 

Note, when you first do this, you might not notice new symptoms.  But that does not mean you can go faster.  Sometimes, the 0.001 reductions will add up before things get hard.  So go slow. 

 

One more important thing.  DO NOT GET OBSESSED WITH THE SCALE FLUCTUATING ON THE LAST DIGIT.  The scale will not hold that steady.  Even your breath on the scale will change the reading 0.001 or 0.002.  Fortunately, you body can handle these tiny variations.  So just get close to the number you want and do not worry about being exact.

 

Bob

[[Ha...]]

This makes sense to me and it is extremely helpful.  I feel like I am finally taking control of my taper.  I am so grateful to have found this forum, and for your help, Bob.  I will keep you updated as I go. 

 

Thanks again,

 

Haimona

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Yes, please keep us updated.

 

When you get to really low doses or need to go even slower than 0.001 grams per reduction, we can discuss Microcrystalline Cellulose.

 

But as long as this 0.001 gram reduction works, keep using it.  You might ride it all the way to zero benzo, many people have done it, you can too.

 

Bob

 

[[2c...]]

Haimona and Bob

 

Thanks so much for this thread.  It is exactly what I needed too.  I feel much better about starting my taper.

I have a question.  I have scale papers and was going to weigh on these and then pour powder in capsules I purchased.  Bob, Are you familiar with this this?

 

Another question . I am taking 1.25 mg Ativan divided into 3 doses . First dose in morning 0.5mg

Second dose midday 0.25mg, 3rd dose 0.5 at bedtime.

My plan was to start with morning dose and get it eventually down to 0.25 mg and then move on to bedtime dose and get it down to 0.25 mg . That way I will be taking even doses again throughout the day.

Then starting with morning dose again, cut it and hold then move to midday, cut it and hold, then bedtime , cut it and hold and so on. 

Is this the way to taper?

 

Thanks

 

 

[[Pa...]]

 

I have a question.  I have scale papers and was going to weigh on these and then pour powder in capsules I purchased.  Bob, Are you familiar with this this?

 

 

Here is a link to some information about scale papers. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=233546.msg2997939#msg2997939

[[2c...]]

Thank you Panmster for the info.

 

I have seen a couple of videos about dry tapering methods .  One person crushed the pills and weighed and then put in gel caps.  He did this for a months supply for whatever his taper schedule was.

 

Another person shaved the pill with a file and then weighed the part of the pill that was left until he got it to the right doseI assumed he did this for a few weeks worth of whatever his taper schedule was.

 

Is one way better than the other? Or is it just personal preference and whatever seems to work the best for you? I think the shaving a pill would be easier but maybe when you get really low not as accurate?

 

You also mentioned when it got very low that switching to liquid might work if my prescribed would do that?

 

[[...]]

Haimona and Bob

 

Thanks so much for this thread.  It is exactly what I needed too.  I feel much better about starting my taper.

I have a question.  I have scale papers and was going to weigh on these and then pour powder in capsules I purchased.  Bob, Are you familiar with this this?

 

Another question . I am taking 1.25 mg Ativan divided into 3 doses . First dose in morning 0.5mg

Second dose midday 0.25mg, 3rd dose 0.5 at bedtime.

My plan was to start with morning dose and get it eventually down to 0.25 mg and then move on to bedtime dose and get it down to 0.25 mg . That way I will be taking even doses again throughout the day.

Then starting with morning dose again, cut it and hold then move to midday, cut it and hold, then bedtime , cut it and hold and so on. 

Is this the way to taper?

 

Thanks

 

Thanks Pamster for sharing that link about scale papers.  Those sound like a good idea.

 

2catsintheyard - As for your question, there are many ways to taper and no way is perfect.  The best way is what works for your lifestyle so you can keep doing it.  I mean people do liquid tapers but that ties you down to liquids.  I like the dry taper and pre-measuring into gel caps so I could travel.

 

Your dose seem large enough to dry weigh on the scale but if you have troubles, let me know.  In particular, when you get to smaller doses, you might need help keeping the scale in a linear range.

 

Do you need help computing how much of your drug to weigh on the scale to get a particular dose?  Remember, 0.5mg of drug is NOT 0.5 on the scale in grams.

 

Bob

[[2c...]]

Bob

 

Yes please.  I want to start with a 3% cut to my morning dose of 0.5 mg . 

Do you recommend shaving down the pill at this point?

Or going straight to crushing?

 

Thank you so much.  You have taken a load off my mind.

 

 

 

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If you have a full pill to reduce from, it is easiest to get a nail file and scratch off 3%.

 

 

[[2c...]]

Bob

Yes right now I have full pills .  I assume at some point I should crush so I don’t waste?

 

So for weighing, do I just weigh the pill and scratch off a little and keeping weighing until I get to a pill that weighs 97% of the original weight? Am I doing my math correctly. 

 

And when I feel ready to cut again I take 3%off of the last weight I was using and soon and so on?

 

I saw somewhere where someone weighed 3 pills or a whole bottle and took an average weight?

 

Sorry if this is too many questions.  I just want to get it right.

 

I just saw your links.  I will check them out too.

 

 

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Your questions are good questions.

 

There are many ways to do this but here is what I would do.

 

(1) I would weigh 10 pills and divide by 10 to get the average weight (call it AveragePillWeight)

 

(2) Then I would make a table like this:

Reduction 1  | 0.97*AveragePillWeight

Reduction 2  | 0.94*AveragePillWeight

Reduction 3  | 0.91*AveragePillWeight

and so on

 

In this way, you don't have to rethink what you are doing each day.  I would put plenty of time (like one or two weeks) between reductions.

 

Also, by doing this, you can use bits of old pills so you don't waste anything.  Just keep all your scraps in a separate pill bottle and weight out what you need on the scale.

 

Does this make sense?

 

The above works for many people and you should at least try it because it is the easy way.  If it doesn't work out (if you don't like these 3% cuts followed by a long hold), you can do a daily reduction method found here:  https://benzodrytapermath.com/ but it is very complicated and should only be done when you get near the end of your taper (like < 0.125 mg of Klonopin is when I started it).

 

Bob

[[2c...]]

Bob

 

Yes I understand.  Yes I want to try this method, if it works , for as long as I can.

 

Thanks so much for the excellent information.  I feel a lot more confident going forward.  I am so thankful for the help you and so many others have given me.

 

One more question, if I may.  I noticed you used Buspar at the end of your taper.  How was your experience with that? I ask because I’m going to an appt with a psychiatric NP in my quest for a prescriber and if they suggest an adjunct med,  I’m not sure how I feel about buspar.  I’ve already decided I don’t feel comfortable about gabapentin but don’t know how I feel about buspar. 

Did you have any issues weaning off of it? I had a doc tell me it was easy to wean from.

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I found buspar to be very easy to stop taking.  No withdraw symptoms and I took it for like 3 weeks straight.

 

I only took it for a few weeks in order to calm down my anxiety in order to get rid of my chest pains. The doctor said being in a state of constant anxiety made the walls of my chest muscles tight all the time and therefore tired and therefore pain.

 

I probably took it 2 or 3 times during my taper.

 

I took it in the mornings because I thought it might affect my sleep.

 

At 1st you might get a slight pleasant  dizzy high from it but that goes away in a few hours.

[[2c...]]

Thanks Bob for sharing your experience with buspar.  Most of what I’ve read on here have been very negative experiences but I do understand that everyone is different and have different sensitivities.

 

It gives me another perspective.

[[Ta...]]

Hi Everybody,

 

I've been following this thread and it has been extremely useful in helping me figure out how to start my taper. But I definitely want to make sure I'm doing it right before I get started. I have some questions for Bob7 about how to do the math. I am taking 1.5 mg spread across three 0.5 mg doses a day. I would like to try to start my taper with a 5% reduction and I have tried following your directions to get the numbers I need.

 

I weighed ten pills and they came to .601 for all 10. Could you please help me with the calculations to reduce 5% evenly across three 0.5 mg doses?

 

Thank you,

Taylor1

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Sure I will help you Taylor1.

 

I am assuming each pill has 0.5mg.

 

Since 10 pills weigh 0.601 grams, one pill weighs 0.0601 grams (call it 0.060g)

 

To get a 5% reduction on your 0.5mg pill, shave it until the weight reduces from 0.060g to 0.057g.

 

To be clear, for each of your 3 doses, weigh on your scale 0.057g for each dose, and your total reduction for the day is 5%.

 

Bob

[[Ta...]]

Hi Bob,

 

Thank you so much for the numbers.

 

As I understand it, with each new reduction, I'm supposed to take 5% off of the new total, not the original 100%. Is that correct?

 

I really struggle with math. Would you mind showing me the calculations for the next two reductions, so I can visualize it and make sure I'm doing it right going forward?

 

I really appreciate your help.

 

Taylor

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Good idea.  Let me share the math.

 

You are right, there are two ways to do it.

 

Way 1 = Take 5% off the new total for EACH new reduction

Way 2 = Take 5% off the starting dose and use that for EACH reduction

 

For Way 1, the first 2 reductions look like this:

Reduction 1 = 0.0600*0.95 = 0.0570

Reduction 2 = 0.0570*0.95 = 0.0542

and so on

 

For Way 2, you use 5% of 0.060 = 0.030g for each reduction.

Reduction 1 = 0.0600 - 0.030 = 0.0570

Reduction 2 = 0.0570 - 0.030 = 0.0540

and so on

In just 2 reductions, do you see how Way 2 is different than Way 1? 

 

Here is the result if you do it for 20 reductions:

 

# Way 1 Way 2

0 0.0600 0.0600

1 0.0570 0.0570

2 0.0542 0.0540

3 0.0514 0.0510

4 0.0489 0.0480

5 0.0464 0.0450

6 0.0441 0.0420

7 0.0419 0.0390

8 0.0398 0.0360

9 0.0378 0.0330

10 0.0359 0.0300

11 0.0341 0.0270

12 0.0324 0.0240

13 0.0308 0.0210

14 0.0293 0.0180

15 0.0278 0.0150

16 0.0264 0.0120

17 0.0251 0.0090

18 0.0238 0.0060

19 0.0226 0.0030

20 0.0215 0.0000

 

[[Ha...]]

Hi Bob,

 

As an update, I went down to .036 g on the scale (which I think is .305 mg, but please tell me if I'm getting my math wrong -- entirely possible) a week ago, and tonight I'm planning to go to .035 g and see how I do there.  So far, the small reduction I've made has me just a bit more jittery, but otherwise hasn't hit me too badly.  I do have a couple of questions:

 

Will I need to keep reducing by .001 g each time? (For example, will my next reduction be to .034 g, and so on?) I'm guessing I will, based on what the scale can measure, but wondering if that's right.  And if so, will my reductions stay in the 2-3% range each time?

 

Is there a formula I can use to know what my new dose is in mg every time I reduce by a certain amount of a gram on the scale?

 

Thanks again for all your help!

 

Haimona

 

 

[[...]]

Hi Haimona,

 

You are currently reducing at the rate of 2.8%.  To compute your rate at any time, divide 0.001 by your current weight on the scale and multiply by 100.  For example, your last reduction would be (0.001/0.036)*100 = 2.7778% = 2.8%

 

I recommend you stay with reducing 0.001 as long as you can handle it.  You are doing well. 

 

I can give you a formula but to make sure it is correct, please first tell me:

(1) the dose of each pill in mg (written on the pill bottle)

(2) weigh 10 of your pills and give me the total.  I will divide by 10 to get the average

 

Bob

[[Ha...]]

Hi Bob,

 

Thank you.  The dose is .5 mg and when I weighed 10 pills (which I did before I started this current phase of the taper, so I could give you the weight) it was .597 g.  I just reduced to .0035 for my dose last night, so I think I may be taking .298 mg now? But please check my math, as it has never been my strong suit.

 

Thanks again,

 

Haimona

 

 

[[...]]

Haimona,

 

Yes, I seem to recall us doing the math but I get so many request, I want to be sure.

 

Your formula is:

      Dose in mg = 8.375 times (weight on scale)

 

So for 0.035 grams on the scale, your dose is 8.375*0.035 = 0.293 mg

 

Keep us the good fight.  One day, you will be free of Benzos.

 

[[Ha...]]

Thank you so much, Bob! It feels good to know I am now down into the "2's" in my taper.  I plan to hold here for at least a week, maybe more because I feel extra jittery and jumpy today.  Still, I really like knowing I am heading downward and eventually, eventually will get off this damn pill. 

 

Haimona

[[Ha...]]

Okay, so I held at .293 mg (.035 g on the scale) for two weeks, and just in the past couple of nights have started to sleep again and feel less jittery during the day.  I am planning to make my next reduction tonight, down to .034 g on the scale (.285 mg).  It seems crazy, ridiculous, frustrating that I am having to do this so slowly and that even such minute reductions cause such bad symptoms -- but I guess any momentum is better than no momentum.

 

At this point, I am basically planning to hold for two weeks after each reduction.  It feels like it will take me close to forever to get off the benzo at this rate, but I'm sure that's not actually true.  By my calculation, if I keep going at this rate, I will be at .25 mg around Christmas.  That would be a quarter of my original nighttime dose (and I used to take that dose twice a day, so really I would be down to an eighth of what I was once taking).  But -- I'm not there yet. 

 

Sigh.

 

Haimona

[[Ha...]]

Just as an update: I am now down to .030 g on the scale (.251 mg).  This has been a slow and painful process, but I am making progress.  I reduced the dose on Friday night, after holding for two weeks, and today I'm jittery, anxious, jumpy, restless, and feeling foggy and DR. 

 

Unbelievable the grip this stuff has.  But I'm still glad to be moving forward.  My goal is to be below .25 before the end of the year, which I am on track to do.  Slow and steady ...  you know the rest.

 

Haimona