Just a little rant against Doctors (*Edit* And the medical system)

[[fi...]]

PharmGuy

i just googled for info for N.I.C.E.

and got that 'this site is only available from Britain'

is there a site you have you can link for me - to try?

 

thanks...

and oh boy i got stories for you about doctors and drugs and ....too much for the board..but none of it is good - and it's all about the Benjamins!!!

(and egos...egos and $ - not a good combo for health care..but sadly too real)

 

firefly

[[Te...]]

Terry...sorry...my brain isn't exactly "on" right now...i was replying to PharmGuy's comments but my heart goes out to you as well - all of this blended together - i could rant with you all the live long day!!!! (didn't want you to think i was responding without recognizing you as OP)...i heard it all...it all breaks my heart and angers me to no end.

not the least of which i just went through recently but i want to relax before bed and i'm feeling riled up! lol

 

you're not alone and rant away..we're all with you!!

 

 

firefly

 

Aw, thanks so much, firefly!!! 

[[Te...]]

Pharmguy, I just want to say that if doctors TRULY understood the whole GABA-glutamate connection as it pertains to benzos, and the terrible symptoms that result due to long-term use (more than a few days in my book), when benzos are only supposed to be given short-term, they would not want to prescribe these pills long-term. Glutamate is clearly a problem and results in increasing anxiety. Perseverance did some wonderful research on this and so did dm123.

 

This is something that I found on the Internet:

Maybe you've seen it already, but you as a pharmacist would understand it.

 

I think informed consent is crucial if prescribing for more than short-term use. I've read scores of posts where the doctor either says nothing about benzos, tells the patient they're "nonaddictive" or some other nonsense. I got no warning at all. And I didn't bother looking it up on the Internet either. I blindly and stupidly trusted the person who prescribed them. Obviously, I reasoned, if she didn't say anything negative about Ativan, it must be okay.  NOT SO.

 

Doctors need to explain the GABA-glutamate connection in informed consent as well instead of just spouting off that a person could become addicted (the usual rhetoric of doctors is to call us "addicted.") I'd never been addicted before, so that worry, to me, was unfounded. That rhetoric about addiction causes a glazing over in people's minds.

 

Another problem is the fact that doctors are so willing to think that those who are dependent have become addicted, and they wash their hands of the whole thing. There are some people who get off these drugs relatively easily. Why the rest of us suffer untold misery, I don't know. Doctors just can't imagine the excruciating misery that many of us go through. It needs to end. It's been going on for far, far too long.

 

Here's Perseverance's research on glutamate receptors and LTP: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=85498.0

[[ca...]]

When it gets to the point that you are fighting for your life in a doctor's office instead of getting treatment, that tells you that there is something seriously wrong!

[[Sw...]]

Something hit me as I was reading this thread........

 

I think part of the problem is that if (God forbid), I had to be admitted to the hospital, and were to tell them that I'm currently on 6.243mg of valium, they'd look at me like I was nuts and the doctor would be questioned.

 

OH man...did that give me a good laugh!!!! ROTFLMAO - thank you!!!! :)

 

definitely a thread that needed a little levity

 

(PharmGuy) I feel for you!!! the system is SOOOO f*d (everywhere...but especially it seems in the US where they just have you coming in like a revolving door - 10 minute visits and a goodie bag of pills on the way out)  - and i still wonder if many aren't getting 'kick-backs' for all their "desires" to be prescribing sooOOO much!!! 

 

sigh..just broke my heart listening to your story (too familiar <sigh>)

 

 

(i hope you get the pills you need!!  )

 

firefly

 

This system of "health care" we have in the United States likens to adult halloween.  As a child we would learn which house to go to get the best candy  at halloween.  I guess it depends on which doctor you visit to fill up you bag with the "adult" candy. 

 

Sweet pea

[[li...]]

Pharmguy, I just want to say that if doctors TRULY understood the whole GABA-glutamate connection as it pertains to benzos, and the terrible symptoms that result due to long-term use (more than a few days in my book), when benzos are only supposed to be given short-term, they would not want to prescribe these pills long-term. Glutamate is clearly a problem and results in increasing anxiety. Perseverance did some wonderful research on this and so did dm123.

 

This is something that I found on the Internet:

Maybe you've seen it already, but you as a pharmacist would understand it.

 

I think informed consent is crucial if prescribing for more than short-term use. I've read scores of posts where the doctor either says nothing about benzos, tells the patient they're "nonaddictive" or some other nonsense. I got no warning at all. And I didn't bother looking it up on the Internet either. I blindly and stupidly trusted the person who prescribed them. Obviously, I reasoned, if she didn't say anything negative about Ativan, it must be okay.  NOT SO.

 

Doctors need to explain the GABA-glutamate connection in informed consent as well instead of just spouting off that a person could become addicted (the usual rhetoric of doctors is to call us "addicted.") I'd never been addicted before, so that worry, to me, was unfounded. That rhetoric about addiction causes a glazing over in people's minds.

 

Another problem is the fact that doctors are so willing to think that those who are dependent have become addicted, and they wash their hands of the whole thing. There are some people who get off these drugs relatively easily. Why the rest of us suffer untold misery, I don't know. Doctors just can't imagine the excruciating misery that many of us go through. It needs to end. It's been going on for far, far too long.

 

Here's Perseverance's research on glutamate receptors and LTP: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=85498.0

 

Re: couple of posts.

 

The idea that you become more alert or energetic when tapering is the 'it's mental' attitude.

 

Opioid link: the diazepam/clonazepam equivalence is wrong !

 

 

 

[[Te...]]

Could you site, liberty, where you saw them so I and others can see what you're talking about? Thanks!

[[Rx...]]

When it gets to the point that you are fighting for your life in a doctor's office instead of getting treatment, that tells you that there is something seriously wrong!

 

AMEN!

[[Bl...]]

There might be a lot of former benzo people who have been given multiple drugs, not knowing that they were in withdrawal and the doctors clueless as well. It's sad.

 

I was one of those people who was offered several different meds to counter the symptoms I was experiencing from benzos.

 

I felt like I was going insane and desperately tried to find help. It was like being in a torture chamber…and not knowing what was causing the torture. I could have easily ended up homeless given my mental and physical condition as a result of these drugs. All along the doctors(many) involved with my health care at that time were clueless.

 

My psychiatrist kept recommending I get on Olanzapine(Zyprexa)…they said it would help me think clearer. I had just been c/t’ed off of Ativan….so the solution was I get on Olanzapine so I would then “think clearer”. REALLY??

 

If only they could have been in my shoes for just one day…..that would have helped them to "think clearer" on just how dangerous benzos/z-drugs are.

[[ma...]]

There might be a lot of former benzo people who have been given multiple drugs, not knowing that they were in withdrawal and the doctors clueless as well. It's sad.

I was one of those people who was offered several different meds to counter the symptoms I was experiencing from benzos.

 

Same here. I suspect a large part of my inability to deal with a complicated situation at work, with depressive symptoms and brain fog, were due to being on Ativan for almost 10 years. So, instead of having energy to changing job right away, I got depressed and was given Effexor. I eventually dealt with the situation but that agonizing year brought a lot of problems to my family.

 

I'm in shock at all this!

 

But the worse cases are not our, I think. The worse is that they are medicating the children! Poor school performance? Ritalin. Bad behavior? Antidepressants. Doesn't like going to school? More antidepressants. Sad because of family problems? Antidepressants again. I think many of these children will have serious health problems in the future because of this irresponsibility.

[[Ph...]]

PharmGuy

i just googled for info for N.I.C.E.

and got that 'this site is only available from Britain'

is there a site you have you can link for me - to try?

 

thanks...

and oh boy i got stories for you about doctors and drugs and ....too much for the board..but none of it is good - and it's all about the Benjamins!!!

(and egos...egos and $ - not a good combo for health care..but sadly too real)

 

firefly

 

Firefly, unfortuntately I'm in the US and cannot access the guidelines either. The best I can offer is a link to the bataid site http://bataid.org/downloads-and-links/

 

There is a document on there entitled "Information from NICE Clinical Knowledge Summaries". However, it is pretty basis, and as implied in the title, is just a summary of the guidelines.

 

Maybe somebody else in the UK could help out..

[[Bl...]]

But the worse cases are not our, I think. The worse is that they are medicating the children! Poor school performance? Ritalin. Bad behavior? Antidepressants. Doesn't like going to school? More antidepressants. Sad because of family problems? Antidepressants again. I think many of these children will have serious health problems in the future because of this irresponsibility.

 

Our environment is so polluted that, no doubt, in some cases children act out due to what they have been/are being exposed to. Then the parent is compelled to put their child on a psychiatric med at the prodding of someone in a position of authority. It can be an intimidating situation….I’m sure.

 

I do feel for children these days…especially with how big of an industry the pharmaceutical companies are…it can be a powerful force for any parent to reckon with. Just have to be proactive as a parent and do the research.

[[Fl...]]

My psychiatrist kept recommending I get on Olanzapine(Zyprexa)…they said it would help me think clearer. I had just been c/t’ed off of Ativan….so the solution was I get on Olanzapine so I would then “think clearer”. REALLY??

 

You really have to wonder what these doctors are thinking when they make claims like this.

[[Ph...]]

Pharmguy, I just want to say that if doctors TRULY understood the whole GABA-glutamate connection as it pertains to benzos, and the terrible symptoms that result due to long-term use (more than a few days in my book), when benzos are only supposed to be given short-term, they would not want to prescribe these pills long-term. Glutamate is clearly a problem and results in increasing anxiety. Perseverance did some wonderful research on this and so did dm123.

 

This is something that I found on the Internet:

Maybe you've seen it already, but you as a pharmacist would understand it.

 

I think informed consent is crucial if prescribing for more than short-term use. I've read scores of posts where the doctor either says nothing about benzos, tells the patient they're "nonaddictive" or some other nonsense. I got no warning at all. And I didn't bother looking it up on the Internet either. I blindly and stupidly trusted the person who prescribed them. Obviously, I reasoned, if she didn't say anything negative about Ativan, it must be okay.  NOT SO.

 

Doctors need to explain the GABA-glutamate connection in informed consent as well instead of just spouting off that a person could become addicted (the usual rhetoric of doctors is to call us "addicted.") I'd never been addicted before, so that worry, to me, was unfounded. That rhetoric about addiction causes a glazing over in people's minds.

 

Another problem is the fact that doctors are so willing to think that those who are dependent have become addicted, and they wash their hands of the whole thing. There are some people who get off these drugs relatively easily. Why the rest of us suffer untold misery, I don't know. Doctors just can't imagine the excruciating misery that many of us go through. It needs to end. It's been going on for far, far too long.

 

Here's Perseverance's research on glutamate receptors and LTP: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=85498.0

 

Terry38, thank you for providing the links  . I had actually been meaning to do a little research on the relationship between gaba, glutamate and ltp. Believe it or not, most pharmacists are not trained extensively in this particular area. I went over the basics of what most pharmacists learn in pharm school in another thread. But to be honest, what most are taught in pharmacy school could probably be absorbed by any person of slightly above average intelligence in just a few days. There's just too many drugs to cover! 

 

Anyway, part of my reinstatement was due to the fact that I felt that many of my issues were due to over-excitation of the glutamate system, as opposed to simply gaba receptor down-regulation. But I cannot say for sure. I'd always associated anxiety, panic attacks, agoraphobia, and insomnia with gaba issues. But some of the other stuff.. racing nonsensical thoughts, feeling dis-attached from ones body, and many of the other bizarre (including physical symptoms) with glutamate toxicity. But none of this I can say with certainty. I was actually thinking about starting a thread on this to see if others had spent any considerable time researching this area. It's hard to say where the issues with one (glutamate/gaba) ends and the other begins. I also want to do a little more research on glutamate antagonists, and see if anybody on this board has had positive experiences with some of these meds. I think one thing that made my first quick taper so difficult is that I had recently also weaned off of tramadol, which is a NMDA (glutamate) receptor antagonist. Thanks for the links!

[[Ph...]]

 

This system of "health care" we have in the United States likens to adult halloween.  As a child we would learn which house to go to get the best candy  at halloween.  I guess it depends on which doctor you visit to fill up you bag with the "adult" candy. 

 

Sweet pea

 

Good analogy 

[[Ph...]]

My psychiatrist kept recommending I get on Olanzapine(Zyprexa)…they said it would help me think clearer. I had just been c/t’ed off of Ativan….so the solution was I get on Olanzapine so I would then “think clearer”. REALLY??

 

You really have to wonder what these doctors are thinking when they make claims like this.

 

I concur. I'm sorry you've had such an awful experience dealing with doctors you thought were there to help you, and whom you trusted . My doc tried to put me on depakote. She did this based solely on the symptom I was having from benzo WD. She refused to believe it was the WD, and was sure that I might have some other underlying medical condition, even though I assured her that was not the case. I know myself, I know how I was pre-benzos, that I am not bipolar, do not have a seizure disorder, nor am I crazy. She also kept mentioning that I needed to get a physical and labwork done (which I had recently done with full labwork) at my own expense. She actually asked to see the labwork. Absolutley incredulous. I'm no longer seeing her..

[[Ph...]]

 

 

Opioid link: the diazepam/clonazepam equivalence is wrong !

 

Hi Liberty, just curious.. what do you use for an equivalence chart? I know that it is going to be slightly different wherever you look, and there is no EXACT way to determine this. But I believe that the generally accepted rule of thumb is 10mg V = 1mg A = 0.5mg K = 0.5mg X. Do you have another reference that you use?

[[Te...]]

Pharmguy, if you go over dm123's posts, you'll see he's done a lot of research on the subjects you were talking about. You might want to read them. They're in Chewing the Fat also: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=184940.0

[[Ph...]]

Pharmguy, if you go over dm123's posts, you'll see he's done a lot of research on the subjects you were talking about. You might want to read them. They're in Chewing the Fat also: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=184940.0

 

Thanks! You saved me some searching time

[[fi...]]

My psychiatrist kept recommending I get on Olanzapine(Zyprexa)…they said it would help me think clearer. I had just been c/t’ed off of Ativan….so the solution was I get on Olanzapine so I would then “think clearer”. REALLY??

 

You really have to wonder what these doctors are thinking when they make claims like this.

 

I concur. I'm sorry you've had such an awful experience dealing with doctors you thought were there to help you, and whom you trusted . My doc tried to put me on depakote. She did this based solely on the symptom I was having from benzo WD. She refused to believe it was the WD, and was sure that I might have some other underlying medical condition, even though I assured her that was not the case. I know myself, I know how I was pre-benzos, that I am not bipolar, do not have a seizure disorder, nor am I crazy. She also kept mentioning that I needed to get a physical and labwork done (which I had recently done with full labwork) at my own expense. She actually asked to see the labwork. Absolutley incredulous. I'm no longer seeing her..

 

OMG PharmGuY!??! did we see the same doc!?!?!??! i just had the same conversation with a doctor who knows me

i kid you not..i'm too tired to type it all out but pretty much identical story - save a few details here or there

(and i read somewhere you shouldn't diagnose with anything major until they have been off benzos for at least six months )

<sigh>

p.s. I'm no longer seeing that GP either!! lol

 

 

I would love to share..another day.. .... i'm too tired to rant..i want to...but ..hey....i'm loving this thread..thanks to whomever started it!!! <--edit:  LOL - benzo brain - YOU started it..LOL...THANK YOU!!!

 

(it's very cathartic!! )

((and nice to see just how much we're not alone having to fight these battles with the very people who are supposed to be protecting and helping us!!!)

[[Te...]]

When it gets to the point that you are fighting for your life in a doctor's office instead of getting treatment, that tells you that there is something seriously wrong!

 

Yes, I feel that way, too.

[[li...]]

Fortunately, there are a few good doctors out there that are willing 'step slightly outside of the boundaries' and work with the patients on a slower, symptom based taper.

 

but what kills me and angers me is it is NOT outside of the boundaries...

 

let me find this one major medical school guideline for benzo withdrawals....tell me if it's not something "reasonable" by this boards standards!!!

 

hold on...(not that you're going anywhere lol)....http://nationalpaincentre.mcmaster.ca/opioid/cgop_b_app_b06.html

 

here's the beginning - just for a taste:

 

McMaster University

Michael G. DeGroote

National Pain Centre

Canadian Guideline for Safe and Effective Use of Opioids for Chronic Non-Cancer Pain

Site Map [sITE MAP]TOC [TOC]Back [bACK]

Appendix B-6: Benzodiazepine Tapering

Benefits of Benzodiazepine Tapering

Lower the risk of future adverse drug-related risks such as falls.

Increased alertness and energy.

Approach to Tapering

Taper slowly: slow tapers are more likely to be successful than fast tapers.

Use scheduled rather than p.r.n. doses.

Halt or reverse taper if severe anxiety or depression occurs.

Schedule follow-up visits q. 1–4 weeks depending on the patient’s response to taper.

At each visit, ask patient about the benefits of tapering (e.g., increased energy, increased alertness).

Protocol for Outpatient Benzodiazepine Tapering

Initiation

May taper with a longer-acting agent such as diazepam or clonazepam, or taper with the agent that the patient is taking. (Diazepam can cause prolonged sedation in the elderly and those with liver impairment.)

 

tell me what you think?  Doesn't this seem reasonable...it's but one that i found - what are the students not learning ....maybe not this..

 

Terry38,

 

Do you mean this one ?

 

Pharmguy,

 

This one is wrong: http://nationalpaincentre.mcmaster.ca/opioid/cgop_b_app_b06.html

[[be...]]

Good thread:

 

The doctor who put me on 10 mg of K told me it wasn't additive and besides, you'll be on it for the rest of your life. I was in horrible shock when I looked it up and found out it was a benzo! I lost my home my job and my marriage because of her. Now I am very lucky to have found one of the few good ones. But still I am here..........

[[Ph...]]

 

Terry38,

 

Do you mean this one ?

 

Pharmguy,

 

This one is wrong: http://nationalpaincentre.mcmaster.ca/opioid/cgop_b_app_b06.html

 

Thanks, Liberty. 

[[Ph...]]

Even if the doc would get involved in a taper, s/he would probably not trust you to be able to use a scale to weigh out pill pieces.  S/he would likely write up a taper with cuts done with intact pills or half pills (or quarter pills if you're lucky).  And the notion of making cuts when your body/mind is capable of making cuts (instead of on a certain schedule) would totally go against their nature. 

 

It's hard to blame the doctors.  It's how they were taught to do things.  Deviating from standard operating procedures means that they stick out their neck to some extent.  They're probably more than a little bit concerned that you might weigh something incorrectly and that they would take the heat (since they didn't verify that you were capable of doing this yourself).  So they defer to an approach that works for most people.  However, we're not most people.  We're that 10% (ish) of the population that needs to come off these meds more carefully.

 

An interesting thought experiment:  Put yourself in the shoes of a psychiatrist, about five years into building a practice, with all the knowledge drummed into you in med school and following that by endless consultations and seminars offered by pharmaceutical representatives, etc., combined with an understandable need to build stability into your business (oops I mean practice) so that you can have a life, tend to your family and so that you yourself do not go insane.

 

I've run this thought experiment in my own mind and I end up doing exactly what we are complaining about in this forum.