Just a little rant against Doctors (*Edit* And the medical system)

[[2t...]]

I was prescribed .5mg of klonopin per day and given 30 days supply with 2 refills and told at .5 mg it was not a problem addiction wise.

Also I was in a pretty vulnerable place at the time having just been through radiation for cancer and needing to wait some time for a follow up biopsy to see if the cancer had spread or been put into remission.

With a bit more counseling and being told up front of the problems with benzos I most probably would have refused them. Yes I am feeling like I was betrayed and now a few months of pills has turned into 16 months of hell and counting.

 

2trusting

[[be...]]

Even if the doc would get involved in a taper, s/he would probably not trust you to be able to use a scale to weigh out pill pieces.  S/he would likely write up a taper with cuts done with intact pills or half pills (or quarter pills if you're lucky).  And the notion of making cuts when your body/mind is capable of making cuts (instead of on a certain schedule) would totally go against their nature. 

 

It's hard to blame the doctors.  It's how they were taught to do things.  Deviating from standard operating procedures means that they stick out their neck to some extent.  They're probably more than a little bit concerned that you might weigh something incorrectly and that they would take the heat (since they didn't verify that you were capable of doing this yourself).  So they defer to an approach that works for most people.  However, we're not most people.  We're that 10% (ish) of the population that needs to come off these meds more carefully.

 

An interesting thought experiment:  Put yourself in the shoes of a psychiatrist, about five years into building a practice, with all the knowledge drummed into you in med school and following that by endless consultations and seminars offered by pharmaceutical representatives, etc., combined with an understandable need to build stability into your business (oops I mean practice) so that you can have a life, tend to your family and so that you yourself do not go insane.

 

I've run this thought experiment in my own mind and I end up doing exactly what we are complaining about in this forum.

 

PG:

 

This is from past experience. I saw a terrible psych and she refused to taper me off my meds. I asked for a different one and I saw him. He said we would begin tapering at our next meeting. I went to see and he said he is going to look for another career as his patients made him depressed so he had to take SSRis.

[[Lo...]]

http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashrisks.htm

[[li...]]

LPF,

 

In some ways http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashrisks.htm is bad.

 

It basically accuses people on benzo as anxiety prone, or should I say neurotic ? Let´s not forget Ashton was a doc too.

[[2t...]]

I was concerned about this also, I read it as only anxious people get dependent on benzos and the more anxious the worse dependency and the worse withdrawal.

 

I did skim it though.

 

2trusting

[[ba...]]

LPF,

 

In some ways http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashrisks.htm is bad.

 

It basically accuses people on benzo as anxiety prone, or should I say neurotic ? Let´s not forget Ashton was a doc too.

 

Not a big fan of Heather Ashton.  Never have or will be.

[[Lo...]]

LPF,

 

In some ways http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashrisks.htm is bad.

 

It basically accuses people on benzo as anxiety prone, or should I say neurotic ? Let´s not forget Ashton was a doc too.

 

Well, if I weren't anxiety prone, there would have been no reason for me to take benzos. Maybe it's time to remove the benzo stigma once and for all. Just because someone ends up taking benzos for anxiety/panic, that doesn't make him/her a lesser being. I can't really change what has happened to me, so the best I can do is accept what happened and try to rectify the situation the best I can.

[[ma...]]

I don't think there's a benzo stigma as everybody is taking them. There is drug abuse stigma and a mental ilness stigma, which are directed at those with withdrawal symptoms. As benzos are believed to be innofensive, and withdrawal issues are not mentioned, people think "something else" must be going on!

[[Lo...]]

I don't think there's a benzo stigma as everybody is taking them. There is drug abuse stigma and a mental ilness stigma, which are directed at those with withdrawal symptoms because benzos are believed to be mostly innofensive, without any withdrawal issues!

 

Yes, the drug abuse stigma and the mental illness stigma are the biggest obstacles, but there is actually benzo stigma, too. I've heard so many people over the years talking about alcohol, etc, but I have never heard anyone say in person. "Oh, I was so anxious last night, I had to take 1mg of Ativan to calm down". Once, I've heard someone mentioned they'd taken a valium during the trip to another country, but I've heard so many people in person talk and make jokes about alcohol, marijuana, opiates and even freely admitting to using all these. Taking benzos seem to be more of an anti-social, isolationist experience, so people just don't talk about it outside of these forums. Sure, maybe it's talked about on the news or online, but I've practically met no one volunteering the info that they took them. Maybe there are towns/cities/countries where people talk about them freely, but I have rarely seen people talk about them in person much at all, outside of clinical/medical setting. 

[[po...]]

AMEN, I couldn't have said it better. EVERYTHING you wrote is what I have experienced here in Central Florida for last 20 years. pdocs are SCRIPT WRITERS and nothing more. I have come to the conclusion that they are in some conspiracy (LOL) with the pharmacy people to write as many different scripts as possible and change one's meds on a whim. I can't count the number of times I have been baker-acted, hospitalized, gone to ER for reactions to the psych meds my pdocs have prescribed. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

 

I NEVER abused my prescribed K and I trusted the kind, competent (?) dr who prescribed it for me. Don't drink, smoke, drug, vegetarian, fitness freak. I NEVER went into tolerance withdrawal while on K due to the fact that I didn't use 3 mg every day as prescribed.

 

I decided to w/d K after spending 3 days on heart wing of hospital due to reactions from 2 anti-psychotics prescribed to me when dr. decided my life long depression was NOT depression and yanked the paxil and declared me bi polar after 1 visit.  Thank god I had some caring doctors in hospital who warned me about my K and advised to w/d.  Primary care dr. found me another pdoc who would write the scripts, but as you wrote, he knows absolutely NOTHING about Benzo W/D and when I tried to share information with him, he wasn't interested.

 

Last visit, I basically "told him off" (in a nice way) that I was a master's degree in math retired teacher, certified in state of Florida to teach high school science and I was aware of the human body systems, especially the brain I nervous system. When he shrugged off my w/d symptoms I pointed out to him the chemicals involved, the neuro-transmitters involved, etc., he backed off.  I feel as though I know about w/d than he does.  FINALLY after pleading, crying, begging, he has agreed to let me taper at MY pace, not his detox program or two week reduction plan.

 

What is happening to the field of medicine here in the States.

 

Again, AMEN .. . thanks for vent and I totally agree.

 

Pooh

[Guest [sa...]]

LPF,

 

In some ways http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashrisks.htm is bad.

 

It basically accuses people on benzo as anxiety prone, or should I say neurotic ? Let´s not forget Ashton was a doc too.

 

Isn't that the whole point When you leave the drug, it causes anxiety.

[[Lo...]]

LPF,

 

In some ways http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashrisks.htm is bad.

 

It basically accuses people on benzo as anxiety prone, or should I say neurotic ? Let´s not forget Ashton was a doc too.

 

Isn't that the whole point When you leave the drug, it causes anxiety.

 

Most definitely, but it seems that many outside of the benzo community believe that once the benzos are out of the system, the person is basically left with their original anxiety, where in reality, many people with long-term benzo prescription may end up with an anxiety that is significantly worse than the one they had before starting on the benzos.  As we all know too well, the main point of contention is the levels of anxiety present once the benzo has been tapered/stopped, and how long will the withdrawal last, or whether the significant withdrawal symptoms occur while a person is tapering or not. For some reason (probably largely influenced by the the layman, societal understanding of this), many people originally seem to expect maybe several weeks of withdrawal symptoms with a gradual return to normal, but it may end up being a lot longer that expected.

 

Since we cannot really measure any of this in the brain,we're left with subjective assessments, and I think Ashton did the best she could, as she observerd all these folks going through this and reading and referencing other people's work. One thing to remember is that the majority of people she treated were basically anxiety sufferers and were on benzos for anxiety and not the other causes, so this paper is probably very much influenced by that reality. She does talk about exogenous coverup of the GABA system, but if the benzos "just" covered things up, you'd expect people to return to their baseline anxiety levels after stopping. Obviously, this doesn't happen for many people, and there's more at play, and this is the main reason why the doctor/patient divide occurs. The doctor doesn't understand why the patient isn't getting better, and the patient doesn't understand why the doctor doesn't understand that there can be a significant worsening of anxiety upon dose reduction and/or stoppage.

 

I think this may be one of the Ashton's early attempts to bridge that doctor/patient divide and find some sort of compromise, and it's probably the best she could have done at the time it was published (1989).

 

But I think this document would be a tremendously helpful find to anyone considering taking the benzodiazepine, or anyone in the very beginning stages of taking them. Obviously, it's better to find this material even later than never, but the earlier the person finds this sort of info and understands the dilemmas and the mechanism, the better it is for them

[[li...]]

babyrex,

 

May I ask why ?

[[li...]]

Being anxiety prone is nothing to be ashamed of. But not everyone was prescribed a benzo for anxiety.

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashrisks.htm

 

She more or less accuses people on benzos of being anxiety prone.

 

That can work out really badly if you were not prescribed a drug for that purpose, and the doc thinks it's anxiety. That's more or less what happened to me, that and the lying/medical errors/untreated physical health problems. An American jury would have made toast of my GP, but here they can get away with almost everything.

[[Lo...]]

Sorry about your ordeal, liberty. Yes, I agree. Lots of folks get prescribed Valium for muscle relaxation, Klonopin for seizures, etc. Other benzodiazepines used to be/still are oft prescribed to heart patients in order to reduce the panic and dilate their arteries, then the prescriptions for vertigo, Meniere's, PTSD, Neurological disorders, etc. etc. etc.  I agree. It gets really, really, complicated. Lots of times, folks have sleep disorders with convulsive type movements, etc. Yes, there are so many non DSM reasons why these meds get prescribed.

 

Yes, and that's where my blind spots were and still are to a degree, as far as these meds go. Traditionally, I've thought of them as anxiolytics until I started experiencing symptoms that had nothing to do with the anxiety, which of course caused more anxiety. Ironically, it's only then, that I realized the anti-convulsive, muscle-relaxant, and many other properties of these meds that caused symptoms that I never really had before, and was so sidelined by all these other symptoms that had no bearing to the original anxiety/panic that made me take a benzodiazepine in the first place.

 

It's interesting though, how Dr. Ashton's and Dr. Malcom Lader's knowledge tend to complement each other's. Each of them  possesses this amazing array of knowledge, and they would have sure made a formidable team, had they somehow worked together on this in more depth back in the 80's.

[[be...]]

I know of a person who was prescribed Valium because she had a bad reaction to shellfish. She was given it for 26 years before she realized the shellfish problem went away and she was toxic to Valium after her first dose. This was before the internet but still way crazy.

[[ca...]]

Reading these experiences made me think about how going to the doctor for something relativly simple can turn into a multi year struggle. I am very convinced that going to the doctor too often can lead to severe health issues due to the drugs they prescribe. It's a damned shame!

[[be...]]

And you have to pay them so you can suffer!

[[li...]]

The way doctors work. (even in the USA ?)

 

They judge, the patient is being judged. ('diagnosis') (the patient waits, from the French 'patience')

Information can flow only one way (from the doctor to the patient).

The doctor proposes treatment, the patient then accepts or discusses that proposed treatment with the doc.

 

Is that how it always works ? (I think it is typical)

If you have already have a very good relationship with the doc there might be more flexibility.

 

Obviously, in my case (multiple medical errors, effects accumulated over years) that wouldn't work. Especially if it was not recognized that the medical errors were made ('by the book diagnostics').

But this is more a general question.

[[Mi...]]

Im currently being forced to withdraw. I experienced recently sudden womb pain which had the medical ppl sending me for cancer tests ( yet again)

The pain moved to my back and has incapacitated me for the last  month or so. The same Doctors who were insisting that I need to come off diazepam rapidly were literally shouting at me saying my anxiety was why I felt that I was in so much pain..

I wanted to say which is it because you ppl arent making sense

 

I had sudden UTI symptoms with no UTI, womb and groin pain which found its way to my lower spine and need a stick to walk when its at its worse. How on earth is that anxiety?

 

I simply said I think any woman sent to an oncology gynocologist as an emergency would experience a sense of heightened anxiety