Can anyone make sense of this to explain to a layperson?

[[li...]]

@[...]

 

Since you insisted on bumping this thread ... is there anything in particular you wanted to say or ask ?

 

I think it is unfortunate that the author decided to discontinue his work in this thread, but I understand. People in W/D like situations are prone to increased anxiety. It was simply his reaction to the distress it caused. And honestly, I think most has been said already. Not counting neuroscience and principles like emergent properties/events ...

You won´t find a single practicing doctor who knows about this stuff.

 

It really helped me understand what´s going on with my CNS. Especially the ´circuit´ and ´neural pathway´ issue. If I had know this 5 years ago I´d be living in a different reality.

I firmly believe that not everyone heals. People usually do heal, but not ´whatever happens´. Don´t ever tell a Dutch GP that people heal anyway ... Sometimes people can get so incredibly messed up by not just the benzo, dose, duration, multiple benzos but also other things that act on the CNS. The CNS is resilient but there are limits. Neuroplasticity exists, but it´s nothing like the natural recovery ability of the body in reponse to flesh wounds or infections. The human body won´t send antibodies after the clonazepam ! At the core, neuroplasticity means change.

 

´you´re fine, it´s just the benzo´ doesn´t apply to me. If I had never met that GP I likely would have been off in 2013 or 2014. In that respect I´m on my own, and evaluating a few options. There are not that many, though.  For most people the bottom line is ´taper off in time´, live healthy and as normal as possible, try to have a positive outlook.

And personally, I don´t have access to proper healthcare. That´s after they messed me up.

[[Fi...]]

Just thought I'd post a link that indicates science is still working toward solution(s):

 

http://theconversation.com/controversial-brain-study-has-scientists-rethinking-neuron-research-93183

 

best wishes

[[Lo...]]

@LPF,

 

Since you insisted on bumping this thread ... is there anything in particular you wanted to say or ask ?

 

Not really. I bumped the thread because I still read what's in it, and it is relevant to me and it is easier to find it when it's among the top threads as opposed to it falling down and being forgotten and harder to find. I might ask the help desk to pin this thead somewhere, so it can be used as reference. It's hard to use it as reference when it keeps dropping down due to inactivity. That's all.

[[Lo...]]

Just thought I'd post a link that indicates science is still working toward solution(s):

 

http://theconversation.com/controversial-brain-study-has-scientists-rethinking-neuron-research-93183

 

best wishes

 

Thanks for the link, Fi.

[[Lo...]]

I firmly believe that not everyone heals. People usually do heal, but not ´whatever happens´. Don´t ever tell a Dutch GP that people heal anyway ... Sometimes people can get so incredibly messed up by not just the benzo, dose, duration, multiple benzos but also other things that act on the CNS. The CNS is resilient but there are limits. Neuroplasticity exists, but it´s nothing like the natural recovery ability of the body in reponse to flesh wounds or infections. The human body won´t send antibodies after the clonazepam ! At the core, neuroplasticity means change.

 

´you´re fine, it´s just the benzo´ doesn´t apply to me. If I had never met that GP I likely would have been off in 2013 or 2014. In that respect I´m on my own, and evaluating a few options. There are not that many, though.  For most people the bottom line is ´taper off in time´, live healthy and as normal as possible, try to have a positive outlook.

And personally, I don´t have access to proper healthcare. That´s after they messed me up.

 

Nothing wrong with believing that not everyone heals. I can certainly understand why. But I will not let others' beliefs drag me deeper into further depression. I had already had a very serious suicide attempt in 2016, and I don't care to go through something like that ever again. I see quite a few people here believing that they don't heal, but it appears that those folks are not dealing with suicidal thoughts on a daily basis, and if they don't, I just wish that they had some understanding towards us that do suffer with those consequences of these drugs. That is all I ask for.

[[Te...]]

I notice that the people who say that not everyone heals are in the thick of it. Why should we listen to that kind of ugly talk? Meanwhile, you have people who are entirely healed who say over and over and over again that if you stick with it, you WILL heal. Who do you choose to believe? That's the only question one ought to ask oneself.

[[li...]]

I can see why the author wanted to end this thread.

 

I would not consider my comments 'ugly'.

As a bit of a final comment, belief will only get you so far.

[[Lo...]]

I can see why the other wanted to end this thread.

 

I would not consider my comments 'ugly'.

As a bit of a final comment, belief will only get you so far.

 

They are not 'ugly'. Just hope extinguishing. There is only so much one can achieve by solely blaming the doctors and healthcare system and being so utterly convinced that there is no way out. It leads to nowhere, fast. It's the antithesis of a support forum. Even if we don't heal at all, I don't see how re-strengthening the message of hopelessness through neural circuits can help anyone even get 5% better. Nobody would be able to taper at all if all they did was harbor constant negativity.

 

Perhaps, it is time to let this thread go. I will not be bumping it anymore. I'm done. I am very grateful to cs123 for all his wonderful work and his contributions, so at least his work will still be available to others to reference it, should they want to.

[[Te...]]

I can see why the other wanted to end this thread.

 

I would not consider my comments 'ugly'.

As a bit of a final comment, belief will only get you so far.

 

I'm sorry, liberty. I shouldn't have used the word "ugly." But as Loraz said, those words are hope extinguishing. There are a lot of people who are working tirelessly to be well. There are a lot of protracted people (me, for one) who have been in this a long time. We have to have hope. I do believe that I will be well. Belief can carry a person a long way.

 

I've always read your posts. This one got me the wrong way at a particularly vulnerable time.

 

I wish you well, liberty!!

[[Lo...]]

I wish you well, too, liberty. Thank you so much for contributing your deep knowledge of the subjects to this board. I guess we all do what we think we need just to survive, and I don't fault anyone for doing exactly that. Healing or not, we all get only one life to live and make the best out of it. Again, thank you for all contributions, and I really wish you the best and I wish cs123 the best, as well.

[[Ma...]]

This is probably a question that has been asked here before, but hey it is always good to bump this thread. As you can see on my signature I have rently statrted a crossver to Valium from Xanax. I t i going OK but so far when I try a little Valium alone it seems to only cover interdose symtoms for about an hour and a half. So I am concerned about this duration of action or peak onset question. Going into this I had really considered Librium as my frontrunner for a crossover but for some trivial reasons I chose to go the conventional route with Valium My basic question is whether duration of action is the same as peak onset which is listed in the fllowing chart from the link below

 

The second part is whether it is way to early to consider if my reactions so far are an inidcation that Valium may be going to cause me more intersoe issues than Librum might. Also if I were to still countenance another crssover to Librium in the near future whether I should consider going further in increasing the proportion of of the Valium to Xanax ratio, maybe going up to 50/50? Things are really going pretty well with the crossover but I fear this duration of action is a problem waitnig in the wings when I try to wean of X completely.

 

http://www.vhpharmsci.com/vhformulary/tools/benzodiazepines-comparison.htm

[[Su...]]

This is probably a question that has been asked here before, but hey it is always good to bump this thread. As you can see on my signature I have rently statrted a crossver to Valium from Xanax. I t i going OK but so far when I try a little Valium alone it seems to only cover interdose symtoms for about an hour and a half. So I am concerned about this duration of action or peak onset question. Going into this I had really considered Librium as my frontrunner for a crossover but for some trivial reasons I chose to go the conventional route with Valium My basic question is whether duration of action is the same as peak onset which is listed in the fllowing chart from the link below

 

The second part is whether it is way to early to consider if my reactions so far are an inidcation that Valium may be going to cause me more intersoe issues than Librum might. Also if I were to still countenance another crssover to Librium in the near future whether I should consider going further in increasing the proportion of of the Valium to Xanax ratio, maybe going up to 50/50? Things are really going pretty well with the crossover but I fear this duration of action is a problem waitnig in the wings when I try to wean of X completely.

 

http://www.vhpharmsci.com/vhformulary/tools/benzodiazepines-comparison.htm

 

Hi Matt!

It's an interesting issue that may have something to do with Xanax.  If you look at my sig you'll see that i have been taking Xanax with Valium for awhile.  For me the valium only holds for 3 hours which is an average duration of action 3-4 being what I've found when I looked this up. 

(I looked up duration of action when people told me what I was feeling was impossible -- so with your experience now i think it may have something to do with the strength of Xanax?)

 

I need to dose Valium every 3 hours during the day -- take my xanax at night which holds me for 12-14 hours.  Taking Xanax during the day doesn't seem to be the answer either.

 

I don't know that there's new information in what I'm saying but it does help to know that others have had similar experiences.

We're getting there!

:smitten:

SS

 

At one point I went up another 1mg of Valium hoping that it would cover for longer and I regret that decision.

[[Ma...]]

  Hi SS Good to hear from you as always. I do continue to follow your story, and am of course rooting for you I admire your patience with your challenging but nonetheless very hopeful situation Yes I think you are hitting on the significant point that in some sense Xanax seems to be a longer acting substance, when the supposed reason for switching to Valium is that it is longer lasting. I understand there is a lot of nuance in all of this and that my last sentence may serve as a laypersons general understanding. It has only been a couple of days since I started on this so I have a way to go to get a better understanding, and fortunately or unfortunately, itI am allowing myself to play around with my dosage times to try to get a better undertanding of what is happening with these two different drugs.

 

Outside of my paresthesia and reflux and maybe kidney pain my mind and attitude are way better. It may be that an increase in exercise is a big part of it, and I also wonder if my occasional use of both magnesium threonate and Kavinace is a part of it I am trying to be careful with Kavinace, but damn something had me in a good mood today. Maybe it is my crossover. Who knows

[[Bu...]]

 

I feel my GABA and receptors were downregulated before what happened to me in May. Do you suggest taking depakote?  My doc thinks it might help increase gaba?  It’s been 8 months and I look like a different person and can’t drop since I was hospitalized for hyponatremia.  Is it beneficial to supplement with gaba if you feel they were torched to begin with?  How do you move forward in that way?  Eve. .001 drops are excruciating.

 

 

Ok. Lets restart. From the purely scientific point of view, what is the advantage of a Librium taper over a Valium taper?

 

My particular understanding is that Librium is an extremely weak anti-convulsant (weaker than valium, much weaker than Lorazepam or Clonazepam). Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

 

If a person withdrawing has some "rebound" issues of "convulsive" nature and was/is on a higher potency benzodiazepine, would it actually be logical for that person to be on an additional anti-convulsant should they ever switch to a weaker bzd such as Librium? Apparently, Neurontin/Gabapentin seems to be one way to go, but I have also seen a few members here report their experiences with Tiagabine/Gabitril.

 

I don't endorse drugs like Depakote, but they are considered to be a GABA transaminase inhibitor type of drugs. Per Prof. Ahston, there is no shortage of GABA in the system. It's those downregulated GABA receptors. But I beg to differ and would say that the problem is in the under-performing GABA system, and not just GABA receptors not working. It is the whole system that had been turbo-charged (kindled) in ways that particular engine wasn't equipped to be turbocharged.

 

So, here we have a car on the side of the road, still driveable, but the engine is smoking a little bit. There is a local mechanic offering some suggestions, and one of them is Depakote for smoother temperature regulation. Prof H. Ashton argues that the act of driving the car will heal it and that such repairs are unneeded an unnecessary, but the mechanic is saying that the engine may not go for much longer without bigger repairs until Depakote oil has been added in to inhibit the breakdown of GABA and make the system more efficient, at least temp

 

 

 

quote author=LorazepamFree2015 link=topic=184940.msg2738928#msg2738928 date=1541389215]

Ok. Lets restart. From the purely scientific point of view, what is the advantage of a Librium taper over a Valium taper?

 

My particular understanding is that Librium is an extremely weak anti-convulsant (weaker than valium, much weaker than Lorazepam or Clonazepam). Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

 

If a person withdrawing has some "rebound" issues of "convulsive" nature and was/is on a higher potency benzodiazepine, would it actually be logical for that person to be on an additional anti-convulsant should they ever switch to a weaker bzd such as Librium? Apparently, Neurontin/Gabapentin seems to be one way to go, but I have also seen a few members here report their experiences with Tiagabine/Gabitril.

 

I don't endorse drugs like Depakote, but they are considered to be a GABA transaminase inhibitor type of drugs. Per Prof. Ahston, there is no shortage of GABA in the system. It's those downregulated GABA receptors. But I beg to differ and would say that the problem is in the under-performing GABA system, and not just GABA receptors not working. It is the whole system that had been turbo-charged (kindled) in ways that particular engine wasn't equipped to be turbocharged.

 

So, here we have a car on the side of the road, still driveable, but the engine is smoking a little bit. There is a local mechanic offering some suggestions, and one of them is Depakote for smoother temperature regulation. Prof H. Ashton argues that the act of driving the car will heal it and that such repairs are unneeded an unnecessary, but the mechanic is saying that the engine may not go for much longer without bigger repairs until Depakote oil has been added in to inhibit the breakdown of GABA and make the system more efficient, at least temporarily.....

[[Fr...]]

This is probably a question that has been asked here before, but hey it is always good to bump this thread. As you can see on my signature I have rently statrted a crossver to Valium from Xanax. I t i going OK but so far when I try a little Valium alone it seems to only cover interdose symtoms for about an hour and a half. So I am concerned about this duration of action or peak onset question. Going into this I had really considered Librium as my frontrunner for a crossover but for some trivial reasons I chose to go the conventional route with Valium My basic question is whether duration of action is the same as peak onset which is listed in the fllowing chart from the link below

 

The second part is whether it is way to early to consider if my reactions so far are an inidcation that Valium may be going to cause me more intersoe issues than Librum might. Also if I were to still countenance another crssover to Librium in the near future whether I should consider going further in increasing the proportion of of the Valium to Xanax ratio, maybe going up to 50/50? Things are really going pretty well with the crossover but I fear this duration of action is a problem waitnig in the wings when I try to wean of X completely.

 

http://www.vhpharmsci.com/vhformulary/tools/benzodiazepines-comparison.htm

 

That is exactly what happened to me. I think I was about a week into the cross and knew the valium wasn’t going to work for me and continued my cross with Librium instead.

[[Ma...]]

Bump

[[Ma...]]

This was such a great thread Cantfly suggested I look for something here so i am going to bump it hope that is OK