Can anyone make sense of this to explain to a layperson?

[[Lo...]]

LPF,

 

I think you get two things mixed up: L as in Librium, L as lorazepam !!!! I have taken lorazepam, not Librium and in recent posts in was referring to Librium.

 

Dm123 or neuroscienguy,

 

I think that kindling is related to a great extent to the 4 pillars you mentioned.

 

I'm sorry liberty. I thought you meant L as in Lorazepam. I stand corrected.

 

Or maybe I don't. It's all just the same stupid drug. Just by a different name. Librium, Lorazepam, Clonazepam. The world would have been a better place without them....

[[Lo...]]

I think it's all starting to make sense: L - lorazepam or librium? dm123 or neuroscience101?

 

Hmmm.... If I go to my psychiatrist and switch to all doses klonopin, I get to change my username, too.....  :laugh:

 

 

All these theories about kindling and having to go to librium and valium to recover depress the hell out of me. Does that mean that people who don't have a doctor to switch them over to librium/valium have a lot less of a chance to recover? I am not getting excited about these theories.... . There may be science to back it up, but from the recovery point, it seems very bleak.....

 

 

[[cs...]]

LPF,

 

I think you get two things mixed up: L as in Librium, L as lorazepam !!!! I have taken lorazepam, not Librium and in recent posts in was referring to Librium.

 

Dm123 or neuroscienguy,

 

I think that kindling is related to a great extent to the 4 pillars you mentioned.

Hi liberty,

Yes, that is correct.

 

This is what the model was for.  It’s a shame.  I hadn’t intended the thread to create fear, but it has.      I will see if they can revert the name back to dm123 or something much shorter as suggested, and call it a day.

[[cs...]]

I think it's all starting to make sense: L - lorazepam or librium? dm123 or neuroscience101?

 

Hmmm.... If I go to my psychiatrist and switch to all doses klonopin, I get to change my username, too.....  :laugh:

 

 

All these theories about kindling and having to go to librium and valium to recover depress the hell out of me. Does that mean that people who don't have a doctor to switch them over to librium/valium have a lot less of a chance to recover? I am not getting excited about these theories.... . There may be science to back it up, but from the recovery point, it seems very bleak.....

 

I agree LPfree.  I think all this science is creating a lot of fear and that’s the last thing the thread was meant to do.

I think we all recover. I really believe that. We all just have different timelines and we come out different but not necessarily worse.

[[Su...]]

I think it's all starting to make sense: L - lorazepam or librium? dm123 or neuroscience101?

 

Hmmm.... If I go to my psychiatrist and switch to all doses klonopin, I get to change my username, too.....  :laugh:

 

 

All these theories about kindling and having to go to librium and valium to recover depress the hell out of me. Does that mean that people who don't have a doctor to switch them over to librium/valium have a lot less of a chance to recover? I am not getting excited about these theories.... . There may be science to back it up, but from the recovery point, it seems very bleak.....

 

I agree LPfree.  I think all this science is creating a lot of fear and that’s the last thing the thread was meant to do.

I think we all recover. I really believe that. We all just have different timelines and we come out different but not necessarily worse.

 

Hi Neuro and all,

This thread doesn't create fear for me -- at least not as much as many on these boards. 

It does offer explanations that I take to heart and help me to understand what may be occurring in my body.

For me information eases my "free floating" anxiety about the WTF is happening?  (sorry for being crude).  I can then almost picture my body healing and the four pillars getting stronger -- or imagine when I'm in the pits that one of the pillars is under stress.

 

fwiw Lorazepam I too am on a combo of short acting and long acting benzos.  It seems to make sense for my body although a few have wondered why I don't cross over to Valium completely.  I do have my carefully thought out reasons.  Don't know if that is compounding what we are going through or not -- but wanted to mention it.

SS

 

[[cs...]]

I think it's all starting to make sense: L - lorazepam or librium? dm123 or neuroscience101?

 

Hmmm.... If I go to my psychiatrist and switch to all doses klonopin, I get to change my username, too.....  :laugh:

 

 

All these theories about kindling and having to go to librium and valium to recover depress the hell out of me. Does that mean that people who don't have a doctor to switch them over to librium/valium have a lot less of a chance to recover? I am not getting excited about these theories.... . There may be science to back it up, but from the recovery point, it seems very bleak.....

 

I agree LPfree.  I think all this science is creating a lot of fear and that’s the last thing the thread was meant to do.

I think we all recover. I really believe that. We all just have different timelines and we come out different but not necessarily worse.

 

Hi Neuro and all,

This thread doesn't create fear for me -- at least not as much as many on these boards. 

It does offer explanations that I take to heart and help me to understand what may be occurring in my body.

For me information eases my "free floating" anxiety about the WTF is happening?  (sorry for being crude).  I can then almost picture my body healing and the four pillars getting stronger -- or imagine when I'm in the pits that one of the pillars is under stress.

 

fwiw Lorazepam I too am on a combo of short acting and long acting benzos.  It seems to make sense for my body although a few have wondered why I don't cross over to Valium completely.  I do have my carefully thought out reasons.  Don't know if that is compounding what we are going through or not -- but wanted to mention it.

SS

 

Hi SS thanks.

 

I have removed most of the comments I made yesterday on kindling.  I don’t think it is responsible for me to post information on it that might cause others to be very uncomfortable.  I will just stick with the science.  The science is available on the internet for those who are interested. 

 

Best wishes

[[li...]]

LPF,

 

Don't read too much into or, or worry too much. A lot is common sense actually. dm123 provided a scientific foundation that allows us to understand things better.

 

There are all sorts of issues that can cause kindling, from chronic high stress while in tolerance on a benzodiazepine to switching to and fro different benzodiazepines.

 

Not everybody has to switch to L or V ... dm123 just has a doctor who is quite rigid about people who are on high potency benzos having to switch to Librium.  Believe me, not everybody does that, some people are fine on direct tapers etc. There are many variables and many approaches. I think that in your case it's important not to stay on both L and V. LPF, this is the chewing the fat section - not intended for practical tapering advice !

 

 

I think it's all starting to make sense: L - lorazepam or librium? dm123 or neuroscience101?

 

Hmmm.... If I go to my psychiatrist and switch to all doses klonopin, I get to change my username, too.....  :laugh:

 

 

All these theories about kindling and having to go to librium and valium to recover depress the hell out of me. Does that mean that people who don't have a doctor to switch them over to librium/valium have a lot less of a chance to recover? I am not getting excited about these theories.... . There may be science to back it up, but from the recovery point, it seems very bleak.....

[[li...]]

I don't believe everyone recovers. Actually, some time ago I read a story about someone who did not recover. The story was removed from the forum for certain reasons. Some people will suffer from symptoms for a long time. A tiny minority will never recover. I think the 'everyone recovers' mantra is a bit false, especially under the condition 'regardless of what happens'. Many variables.

 

No reason to spread fear, but I don't like false optimism. LPF, you can see that theory as a foundation for understanding and making choices- it's not tapering advice.

 

I think it's all starting to make sense: L - lorazepam or librium? dm123 or neuroscience101?

 

Hmmm.... If I go to my psychiatrist and switch to all doses klonopin, I get to change my username, too.....  :laugh:

 

 

All these theories about kindling and having to go to librium and valium to recover depress the hell out of me. Does that mean that people who don't have a doctor to switch them over to librium/valium have a lot less of a chance to recover? I am not getting excited about these theories.... . There may be science to back it up, but from the recovery point, it seems very bleak.....

 

I agree LPfree.  I think all this science is creating a lot of fear and that’s the last thing the thread was meant to do.

I think we all recover. I really believe that. We all just have different timelines and we come out different but not necessarily worse.

[[Lo...]]

I don't believe everyone recovers. Actually, some time ago I read a story about someone who did not recover. The story was removed from the forum for certain reasons. Some people will suffer from symptoms for a long time. A tiny minority will never recover. I think the 'everyone recovers' mantra is a bit false, especially under the condition 'regardless of what happens'. Many variables.

 

No reason to spread fear, but I don't like false optimism. LPF, you can see that theory as a foundation for understanding and making choices- it's not tapering advice.

 

I don't like stagnation and all-around pessimism either. This is a support forum and saying how people do not recover isn't very supportive. It's not about whether people recover or not. It's that people suffering from benzo injury generally tend to have their heads full of extremely horrific, catastrophic and dark thoughts. Telling them that they will recover is a gentle encouragement and a way to replace those horrid thoughts with something a bit more uplifting. If people kept making threads with titles such as "We're doomed", pretty soon, nobody would be logging on here

 

[[li...]]

I don't believe everyone recovers. Actually, some time ago I read a story about someone who did not recover. The story was removed from the forum for certain reasons. Some people will suffer from symptoms for a long time. A tiny minority will never recover. I think the 'everyone recovers' mantra is a bit false, especially under the condition 'regardless of what happens'. Many variables.

 

No reason to spread fear, but I don't like false optimism. LPF, you can see that theory as a foundation for understanding and making choices- it's not tapering advice.

 

I don't like stagnation and all-around pessimism either. This is a support forum and saying how people do not recover isn't very supportive. It's not about whether people recover or not. It's that people suffering from benzo injury generally tend to have their heads full of extremely horrific, catastrophic and dark thoughts. Telling them that they will recover is a gentle encouragement and a way to replace those horrid thoughts with something a bit more uplifting. If people kept making threads with titles such as "We're doomed", pretty soon, nobody would be logging on here

 

I think the forum as a whole offers an optimistic approach. This is not a section for support ... I'm sorry you're taking this so personally. It's also cruel to tell people they will recover, which may engender a false optimism, especially 'everyone recovers, regardless of what happens'. In a way it's obvious - if a thread causes distress, don't read it !

[[Lo...]]

I don't believe everyone recovers. Actually, some time ago I read a story about someone who did not recover. The story was removed from the forum for certain reasons. Some people will suffer from symptoms for a long time. A tiny minority will never recover. I think the 'everyone recovers' mantra is a bit false, especially under the condition 'regardless of what happens'. Many variables.

 

No reason to spread fear, but I don't like false optimism. LPF, you can see that theory as a foundation for understanding and making choices- it's not tapering advice.

 

I don't like stagnation and all-around pessimism either. This is a support forum and saying how people do not recover isn't very supportive. It's not about whether people recover or not. It's that people suffering from benzo injury generally tend to have their heads full of extremely horrific, catastrophic and dark thoughts. Telling them that they will recover is a gentle encouragement and a way to replace those horrid thoughts with something a bit more uplifting. If people kept making threads with titles such as "We're doomed", pretty soon, nobody would be logging on here

 

I think the forum as a whole offers an optimistic approach. This is not a section for support ... I'm sorry you're taking this so personally. It's also cruel to tell people they will recover, which may engender a false optimism, especially 'everyone recovers, regardless of what happens'. In a way it's obvious - if a thread causes distress, don't read it !

 

It's a wonderful/useful thread. Why should I not read it?

It is a section for support. Knowledge = support.

And who said I was taking things personally? Where are all these assumptions coming from?

[[li...]]

Maybe we should disocntinue this line of 'conversation', since it obviously cases distress.

 

But following up your post: this thread is for academic discussions, offering theories, possibe explanations. Conflict and challenging statements is part of that. I'll leave it at that.

 

I don't believe everyone recovers. Actually, some time ago I read a story about someone who did not recover. The story was removed from the forum for certain reasons. Some people will suffer from symptoms for a long time. A tiny minority will never recover. I think the 'everyone recovers' mantra is a bit false, especially under the condition 'regardless of what happens'. Many variables.

 

No reason to spread fear, but I don't like false optimism. LPF, you can see that theory as a foundation for understanding and making choices- it's not tapering advice.

 

I don't like stagnation and all-around pessimism either. This is a support forum and saying how people do not recover isn't very supportive. It's not about whether people recover or not. It's that people suffering from benzo injury generally tend to have their heads full of extremely horrific, catastrophic and dark thoughts. Telling them that they will recover is a gentle encouragement and a way to replace those horrid thoughts with something a bit more uplifting. If people kept making threads with titles such as "We're doomed", pretty soon, nobody would be logging on here

 

I think the forum as a whole offers an optimistic approach. This is not a section for support ... I'm sorry you're taking this so personally. It's also cruel to tell people they will recover, which may engender a false optimism, especially 'everyone recovers, regardless of what happens'. In a way it's obvious - if a thread causes distress, don't read it !

 

It's a wonderful/useful thread. Why should I not read it?

It is a section for support. Knowledge = support.

And who said I was taking things personally? Where are all these assumptions coming from?

[[Re...]]

Hopefully the good discussion on the material can continue.  It would be a shame for this thread to wither-away due to conflict about presentation of opinions.  I am hopeful that we can get on to thinking about the challenges we all face and the unique perspectives we have and simply appreciate the different viewpoints.  Alternative viewpoints encourage robust debate and sharing of ideas and that's really important.  Everyone of you has made some contribution that I find relevant and thought provoking.  Thanks to all of you.

 

-RST

[[Lo...]]

Ok. Lets restart. From the purely scientific point of view, what is the advantage of a Librium taper over a Valium taper?

 

My particular understanding is that Librium is an extremely weak anti-convulsant (weaker than valium, much weaker than Lorazepam or Clonazepam). Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

 

If a person withdrawing has some "rebound" issues of "convulsive" nature and was/is on a higher potency benzodiazepine, would it actually be logical for that person to be on an additional anti-convulsant should they ever switch to a weaker bzd such as Librium? Apparently, Neurontin/Gabapentin seems to be one way to go, but I have also seen a few members here report their experiences with Tiagabine/Gabitril.

 

I don't endorse drugs like Depakote, but they are considered to be a GABA transaminase inhibitor type of drugs. Per Prof. Ahston, there is no shortage of GABA in the system. It's those downregulated GABA receptors. But I beg to differ and would say that the problem is in the under-performing GABA system, and not just GABA receptors not working. It is the whole system that had been turbo-charged (kindled) in ways that particular engine wasn't equipped to be turbocharged.

 

So, here we have a car on the side of the road, still driveable, but the engine is smoking a little bit. There is a local mechanic offering some suggestions, and one of them is Depakote for smoother temperature regulation. Prof H. Ashton argues that the act of driving the car will heal it and that such repairs are unneeded an unnecessary, but the mechanic is saying that the engine may not go for much longer without bigger repairs until Depakote oil has been added in to inhibit the breakdown of GABA and make the system more efficient, at least temporarily.....

[[Re...]]

Ok. Lets restart. From the purely scientific point of view, what is the advantage of a Librium taper over a Valium taper?

 

My particular understanding is that Librium is an extremely weak anti-convulsant (weaker than valium, much weaker than Lorazepam or Clonazepam). Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

 

If a person withdrawing has some "rebound" issues of "convulsive" nature and was/is on a higher potency benzodiazepine, would it actually be logical for that person to be on an additional anti-convulsant should they ever switch to a weaker bzd such as Librium? Apparently, Neurontin/Gabapentin seems to be one way to go, but I have also seen a few members here report their experiences with Tiagabine/Gabitril.

 

I don't endorse drugs like Depakote, but they are considered to be a GABA transaminase inhibitor type of drugs. Per Prof. Ahston, there is no shortage of GABA in the system. It's those downregulated GABA receptors. But I beg to differ and would say that the problem is in the under-performing GABA system, and not just GABA receptors not working. It is the whole system that had been turbo-charged (kindled) in ways that particular engine wasn't equipped to be turbocharged.

 

So, here we have a car on the side of the road, still driveable, but the engine is smoking a little bit. There is a local mechanic offering some suggestions, and one of them is Depakote for smoother temperature regulation. Prof H. Ashton argues that the act of driving the car will heal it and that such repairs are unneeded an unnecessary, but the mechanic is saying that the engine may not go for much longer without bigger repairs until Depakote oil has been added in to inhibit the breakdown of GABA and make the system more efficient, at least temporarily.....

 

The problem is for sure more complex than merely downregulated gaba receptors.  I am not certain about endorsing anything at this point.  One of the difficulties that has emerged with lyrica and neurontin (pre gabalin and gabapentin) is the conundrum related to synaptogenesis; that is to say, those two gabaergic drugs appear to block synaptogenesis.  That's kind of key for some of us.  I am in that very conundrum.  I am in agony if I reduce gabapentin and yet I do not seem to heal while I am on the gabapentin and tolerance builds.  What to do?  Therefore, I would consider an alternative medication to help me get off the gabapentin if only for the fact that at least then synaptogenesis could occur.  In sum, I truly believe I would have been on my way to some post benzo healing by now had I not begun taking the gabapentin when I did.

 

-RST

[[Lo...]]

The problem is for sure more complex than merely downregulated gaba receptors.  I am not certain about endorsing anything at this point.  One of the difficulties that has emerged with lyrica and neurontin (pre gabalin and gabapentin) is the conundrum related to synaptogenesis; that is to say, those two gabaergic drugs appear to block synaptogenesis.  That's kind of key for some of us.  I am in that very conundrum.  I am in agony if I reduce gabapentin and yet I do not seem to heal while I am on the gabapentin and tolerance builds.  What to do?  Therefore, I would consider an alternative medication to help me get off the gabapentin if only for the fact that at least then synaptogenesis could occur.  In sum, I truly believe I would have been on my way to some post benzo healing by now had I not begun taking the gabapentin when I did.

 

-RST

 

I've just looked it up. This is what I found:

 

Gabapentin prevents synaptogenesis between sensory and spinal cord neurons induced by thrombospondin-4 acting on pre-synaptic Cav α2 δ1 subunits and involving T-type Ca2+ channels.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29338087

 

It doesn't look like it blocks all synaptogenesis, but this finding does not speak well of Gabapentin. It does however slows down the Calcium voltage-gated activity that can be *significant* during severe benzodiazepine withdrawal reactions. I am not sure if that benefit outweighs the drawbacks or not. What I do not like about it personally is that tolerance does increase over time and that the half-life and therapeutic effect is comparably short. There are also bioavailability issues. It does not seem like a soild, shelf-stable long-acting drug one could benefit more reliably from during a bad bzd wd.

 

This drug seems like it is better suited to be used short term (couple of weeks) during acute alcohol withdrawal, but I am not sure if it is that useful for benzodiazepine withdrawal.

[[...]]

Ok. Lets restart. From the purely scientific point of view, what is the advantage of a Librium taper over a Valium taper?

 

My particular understanding is that Librium is an extremely weak anti-convulsant (weaker than valium, much weaker than Lorazepam or Clonazepam). Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

 

If a person withdrawing has some "rebound" issues of "convulsive" nature and was/is on a higher potency benzodiazepine, would it actually be logical for that person to be on an additional anti-convulsant should they ever switch to a weaker bzd such as Librium? Apparently, Neurontin/Gabapentin seems to be one way to go, but I have also seen a few members here report their experiences with Tiagabine/Gabitril.

 

I don't endorse drugs like Depakote, but they are considered to be a GABA transaminase inhibitor type of drugs. Per Prof. Ahston, there is no shortage of GABA in the system. It's those downregulated GABA receptors. But I beg to differ and would say that the problem is in the under-performing GABA system, and not just GABA receptors not working. It is the whole system that had been turbo-charged (kindled) in ways that particular engine wasn't equipped to be turbocharged.

 

So, here we have a car on the side of the road, still driveable, but the engine is smoking a little bit. There is a local mechanic offering some suggestions, and one of them is Depakote for smoother temperature regulation. Prof H. Ashton argues that the act of driving the car will heal it and that such repairs are unneeded an unnecessary, but the mechanic is saying that the engine may not go for much longer without bigger repairs until Depakote oil has been added in to inhibit the breakdown of GABA and make the system more efficient, at least temporarily.....

 

To answer your first few questions.... No, Librium is absolutely NOT a weak benzo by any stretch of the imagination.  It is absolutely NOT weaker than valium or klonopin.  It is just as strong/potent/ debilitating/effective....whatever semantics you prefer.  I am not sure why anyone would suggest or think that Librium is "weaker" because that is simply not true.  It is not the drug of choice in an acute seizure setting b/c it has a slow onset of action.  I repeat, slow onset of action does NOT equal "weaker".  But if you're actively seizing, you want it to stop right away so you need a drug that takes effect very quickly.  Also, b/c of the slow onset of action...it is not a drug of abuse b/c ppl don't get a "High" off it.  This doesn't make it's overall effect "weaker"...it just means it is more steady state...the effect comes on gradually and stays on and goes away gradually.  This is exactly why it is a good taper drug....better steady state blood levels.  Other benzos may hit all at once and then the blood levels or action drops off much more quickly....so people have to dose more frequently to maintain steady state and there is still increased chance for interdose w/d problems.  Librium has less interdose problems b/c it is in steady state more so.

 

This doesn't mean Librium is necessary for a proper taper.  Obviously plenty of ppl are tapering every which benzo, getting off, and healing.  You can certainly taper off any benzo you wish.  If you're already on a taper path, do not stress too much about whether it's the right benzo to taper from. If you're having lots of difficulty, then consider a benzo that offers better steady state.  It's really that simple. Some ppl achieve better steady state by more frequent dosing. Some by switching to longer acting benzos like V or librium.  L offers even a better steady state situation than V but is certainly not necessary. Most ppl get Librium to taper. Librium is used to taper ppl off alcohol.  V has some practical advantages in that it comes in more mg sizes and it is available as a liquid.  Certainly an already prepared liquid would be the most convenient way to taper.  V has a more popular reputation than Librium...not b/c it's better, just because it is popular.

 

I can't speak specifically to other meds....but the body gravitates toward homeostasis.  If you leave it alone and get out of the way, healing will happen.  If you keep messing with the baseline homeostasis with additional drugs, the body will adapt to those drugs. No drug affects only one or two things...esp these drugs...they affect almost every part of the body's workings...so if you mess w/ it all, the result will be a messed up system.  If you leave it alone, the natural homeostasis will return once the body is free of drugs and has had time to re-adapt to normalcy.  Of course, you have to taper slowly so as not to further injure the CNS.  But we don't know what exactly is going on when we take benzos, we don't know what exactly is going on in w/d, we don't know what all the body does to heal, we don't know what all the body does to maintain homeostasis.... so we are left to trust the body to do its thing and I believe we should get out of its way and let it.  I believe it is foolish to think we can ingest another chemical and think we can know how it will affect all these things.

 

I get that we are all searching for a cure, for something to lessen the suffering, to return us to health and joy.....but I don't believe the long term solution lies in more drugs.

I believe we will all heal if we taper slowly, don't add more drugs, and do what we can to support our systems - 1. relaxation/connection  2. eat healthy  3. sleep/rest  4. exercise (lightly as long as we are in w/d)

 

Peace to you all!

[[Lo...]]

Ok. Lets restart. From the purely scientific point of view, what is the advantage of a Librium taper over a Valium taper?

 

My particular understanding is that Librium is an extremely weak anti-convulsant (weaker than valium, much weaker than Lorazepam or Clonazepam). Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

 

If a person withdrawing has some "rebound" issues of "convulsive" nature and was/is on a higher potency benzodiazepine, would it actually be logical for that person to be on an additional anti-convulsant should they ever switch to a weaker bzd such as Librium? Apparently, Neurontin/Gabapentin seems to be one way to go, but I have also seen a few members here report their experiences with Tiagabine/Gabitril.

 

I don't endorse drugs like Depakote, but they are considered to be a GABA transaminase inhibitor type of drugs. Per Prof. Ahston, there is no shortage of GABA in the system. It's those downregulated GABA receptors. But I beg to differ and would say that the problem is in the under-performing GABA system, and not just GABA receptors not working. It is the whole system that had been turbo-charged (kindled) in ways that particular engine wasn't equipped to be turbocharged.

 

So, here we have a car on the side of the road, still driveable, but the engine is smoking a little bit. There is a local mechanic offering some suggestions, and one of them is Depakote for smoother temperature regulation. Prof H. Ashton argues that the act of driving the car will heal it and that such repairs are unneeded an unnecessary, but the mechanic is saying that the engine may not go for much longer without bigger repairs until Depakote oil has been added in to inhibit the breakdown of GABA and make the system more efficient, at least temporarily.....

 

To answer your first few questions.... No, Librium is absolutely NOT a weak benzo by any stretch of the imagination.  It is absolutely NOT weaker than valium or klonopin.  It is just as strong/potent/ debilitating/effective....whatever semantics you prefer.  I am not sure why anyone would suggest or think that Librium is "weaker" because that is simply not true.  It is not the drug of choice in an acute seizure setting b/c it has a slow onset of action.  I repeat, slow onset of action does NOT equal "weaker".  But if you're actively seizing, you want it to stop right away so you need a drug that takes effect very quickly.  Also, b/c of the slow onset of action...it is not a drug of abuse b/c ppl don't get a "High" off it.  This doesn't make it's overall effect "weaker"...it just means it is more steady state...the effect comes on gradually and stays on and goes away gradually.  This is exactly why it is a good taper drug....better steady state blood levels.  Other benzos may hit all at once and then the blood levels or action drops off much more quickly....so people have to dose more frequently to maintain steady state and there is still increased chance for interdose w/d problems.  Librium has less interdose problems b/c it is in steady state more so.

 

This doesn't mean Librium is necessary for a proper taper.  Obviously plenty of ppl are tapering every which benzo, getting off, and healing.  You can certainly taper off any benzo you wish.  If you're already on a taper path, do not stress too much about whether it's the right benzo to taper from. If you're having lots of difficulty, then consider a benzo that offers better steady state.  It's really that simple. Some ppl achieve better steady state by more frequent dosing. Some by switching to longer acting benzos like V or librium.  L offers even a better steady state situation than V but is certainly not necessary. Most ppl get Librium to taper. Librium is used to taper ppl off alcohol.  V has some practical advantages in that it comes in more mg sizes and it is available as a liquid.  Certainly an already prepared liquid would be the most convenient way to taper.  V has a more popular reputation than Librium...not b/c it's better, just because it is popular.

 

I can't speak specifically to other meds....but the body gravitates toward homeostasis.  If you leave it alone and get out of the way, healing will happen.  If you keep messing with the baseline homeostasis with additional drugs, the body will adapt to those drugs. No drug affects only one or two things...esp these drugs...they affect almost every part of the body's workings...so if you mess w/ it all, the result will be a messed up system.  If you leave it alone, the natural homeostasis will return once the body is free of drugs and has had time to re-adapt to normalcy.  Of course, you have to taper slowly so as not to further injure the CNS.  But we don't know what exactly is going on when we take benzos, we don't know what exactly is going on in w/d, we don't know what all the body does to heal, we don't know what all the body does to maintain homeostasis.... so we are left to trust the body to do its thing and I believe we should get out of its way and let it.  I believe it is foolish to think we can ingest another chemical and think we can know how it will affect all these things.

 

I get that we are all searching for a cure, for something to lessen the suffering, to return us to health and joy.....but I don't believe the long term solution lies in more drugs.

I believe we will all heal if we taper slowly, don't add more drugs, and do what we can to support our systems - 1. relaxation/connection  2. eat healthy  3. sleep/rest  4. exercise (lightly as long as we are in w/d)

 

Peace to you all!

 

Thank you. But, there is a reason why Ativan is the preferred benzo to be given in an emergency setting for seizures. And it's not just because of its quick onset of action. It actually is a very strong anti-convulsant.  It doesn't make any other benzos "weak". It's just that Ativan has some very strong properties that make it an extremely difficult drug to taper from. Agonizing nerve pain and skin burning upon tapering for some of us. Never had that problem before taking it, ever. Just that alone causes deep, brutal depression and pain that is so searing and strong that is unmanageable. My last therapist was critical of me taking Gabapentin. I don't think she would have been able to handle this nerve pain if she had it without taking something for it. People act tough, but everyone has their breaking point.

 

I have not seen very many people here taper directly off of Ativan without any substitutions or adjunct medications. I know it's theoretically possible, but I've seen very little of it on this board. It all makes me curious for that reason. If I got kidnapped, had no access to medications and had a choice of either being on 1mg of ativan/day or 25mg of librium a day (which would be roughly equivalent), I would have chosen 25mg Librium a day, as it gives me a better chance of staying alive, medically speaking.

 

Yes. People do their best with what they are given. Tapering wise. Usually, the doctors that I worked with were under the impression that I could just stop taking the .5mg Ativan. I was too. It is just a very tiny round white tablet. How hard is that to stop? Apparently, harder than most people out there think.

[[Tr...]]

Going way back in time here, back to the first page of this thread. Liberty and CS123 were having a discussion about possibly staying away from anticholinergic drugs. I've had three adverse reactions to medications this year, which led to me being in this mess. The first reaction included shaking, muscle fascinations and jerks, tachycardia, hypertensive crisis, and panic after taking my Remeron the day after taking tryptophan- which led to me discontinuing the Remeron and subsequently going into a severe antidepressant withdrawal. The second adverse reaction was when I took doxylamine (antihistamine) two weeks later to try and sleep. The exact same thing happened to me. From then on, I dealt with surges, fear, dysautonomia, etc which led to me being put on Klonopin and now tapering. The surges, fear, and autonomic symptoms for the most part cleared up over the next nine months while tapering the K although tinnitus, parasthesia, low-stress resistance, tight gut, and anxiety has persisted. Then the Klonopin withdrawal started to hit as I tapered which brought on a bunch of other symptoms. I've been functional (able to do moderate to light exercise, work full-time, raise a baby) but it hasn't been a walk in the park.

 

Then, a few days ago, I took half a Bentyl ( anticholinergic) for severe IBS pain. Within about 10 minutes I knew something was wrong and the shaking, jerks, and tachycardia commenced like the other two times although it was not as bad and I didn't have to go to the ER like the last two times. Since then, the dysautonomia came back for a few days (fluctuating HR at rest, exercise/activity intolerance, POTS) but has since started to let up the last two days.

 

I tried to see if there was a pattern to the three drugs. Anti-histamines have anticholinergic activity, and Remeron at the low dose has anti-histamine properties. I can' find a variable that exists between all three classes of medications that would cause such a reaction for me.

 

I wonder if I set myself back to square one by taking an anticholinergic. I don't feel as terror-stricken with complete insomnia, agitation, pseudo-akasthisia, arrhythmia, anxiety, and DP/DR etc as I did when all this began 9 months ago, but I feel off.  Perhaps it's just a wave, or increased inflammation as I just got over a cold, my cuts catching up,  or perhaps something else due to the anticholinergic activity. Was there a consensus about taking anticholinergics during withdrawal affecting our recovery? I know this isn't a support thread, so I'm not here asking for help with my taper, but there's a lot of buddies who appreciate research on this thread and seem to know more neuroscience than our p-docs lol. Perhaps someone has an answer to what happened to me, or has a suggestion to mitigate it going forward?

[[Lo...]]

So sorry for your suffering, TrustGod828. Yes, there is definitely something to anticholingerics. I don't know about all of them, but I have had horrible time with Bentyl, which I had actually taken prior to taking the first Ativan. I'm relieved to see it's not just me reacting to Bentyl poorly, but I remember I was taking it for a couple of week on/off for a bad case of IBS caused by stress & fatigue. There was also some RUQ pain that exacerbated after long, draining commutes to work at the time. I ended up with a flurry of panic attacks and some feelings of agoraphobia, which shortly led to taking an occasional Ativan. I had not taken Bentyl after this, but my experience with it had been dysmal. It seems to do what it's supposed to (lessen stomach cramping), but I thought that its central nervous system effect was quite profound.

 

I wonder if Bentyl worsened the anxiety/panic in me before the bzds. Of course, it was a much less severe panic, but there have been reports of it inducing anxiety reactions in people.

 

[[Fr...]]

Ok. Lets restart. From the purely scientific point of view, what is the advantage of a Librium taper over a Valium taper?

 

My particular understanding is that Librium is an extremely weak anti-convulsant (weaker than valium, much weaker than Lorazepam or Clonazepam). Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

 

If a person withdrawing has some "rebound" issues of "convulsive" nature and was/is on a higher potency benzodiazepine, would it actually be logical for that person to be on an additional anti-convulsant should they ever switch to a weaker bzd such as Librium? Apparently, Neurontin/Gabapentin seems to be one way to go, but I have also seen a few members here report their experiences with Tiagabine/Gabitril.

 

I don't endorse drugs like Depakote, but they are considered to be a GABA transaminase inhibitor type of drugs. Per Prof. Ahston, there is no shortage of GABA in the system. It's those downregulated GABA receptors. But I beg to differ and would say that the problem is in the under-performing GABA system, and not just GABA receptors not working. It is the whole system that had been turbo-charged (kindled) in ways that particular engine wasn't equipped to be turbocharged.

 

So, here we have a car on the side of the road, still driveable, but the engine is smoking a little bit. There is a local mechanic offering some suggestions, and one of them is Depakote for smoother temperature regulation. Prof H. Ashton argues that the act of driving the car will heal it and that such repairs are unneeded an unnecessary, but the mechanic is saying that the engine may not go for much longer without bigger repairs until Depakote oil has been added in to inhibit the breakdown of GABA and make the system more efficient, at least temporarily.....

 

To answer your first few questions.... No, Librium is absolutely NOT a weak benzo by any stretch of the imagination.  It is absolutely NOT weaker than valium or klonopin.  It is just as strong/potent/ debilitating/effective....whatever semantics you prefer.  I am not sure why anyone would suggest or think that Librium is "weaker" because that is simply not true.  It is not the drug of choice in an acute seizure setting b/c it has a slow onset of action.  I repeat, slow onset of action does NOT equal "weaker".  But if you're actively seizing, you want it to stop right away so you need a drug that takes effect very quickly.  Also, b/c of the slow onset of action...it is not a drug of abuse b/c ppl don't get a "High" off it.  This doesn't make it's overall effect "weaker"...it just means it is more steady state...the effect comes on gradually and stays on and goes away gradually.  This is exactly why it is a good taper drug....better steady state blood levels.  Other benzos may hit all at once and then the blood levels or action drops off much more quickly....so people have to dose more frequently to maintain steady state and there is still increased chance for interdose w/d problems.  Librium has less interdose problems b/c it is in steady state more so.

 

This doesn't mean Librium is necessary for a proper taper.  Obviously plenty of ppl are tapering every which benzo, getting off, and healing.  You can certainly taper off any benzo you wish.  If you're already on a taper path, do not stress too much about whether it's the right benzo to taper from. If you're having lots of difficulty, then consider a benzo that offers better steady state.  It's really that simple. Some ppl achieve better steady state by more frequent dosing. Some by switching to longer acting benzos like V or librium.  L offers even a better steady state situation than V but is certainly not necessary. Most ppl get Librium to taper. Librium is used to taper ppl off alcohol.  V has some practical advantages in that it comes in more mg sizes and it is available as a liquid.  Certainly an already prepared liquid would be the most convenient way to taper.  V has a more popular reputation than Librium...not b/c it's better, just because it is popular.

 

I can't speak specifically to other meds....but the body gravitates toward homeostasis.  If you leave it alone and get out of the way, healing will happen.  If you keep messing with the baseline homeostasis with additional drugs, the body will adapt to those drugs. No drug affects only one or two things...esp these drugs...they affect almost every part of the body's workings...so if you mess w/ it all, the result will be a messed up system.  If you leave it alone, the natural homeostasis will return once the body is free of drugs and has had time to re-adapt to normalcy.  Of course, you have to taper slowly so as not to further injure the CNS.  But we don't know what exactly is going on when we take benzos, we don't know what exactly is going on in w/d, we don't know what all the body does to heal, we don't know what all the body does to maintain homeostasis.... so we are left to trust the body to do its thing and I believe we should get out of its way and let it.  I believe it is foolish to think we can ingest another chemical and think we can know how it will affect all these things.

 

I get that we are all searching for a cure, for something to lessen the suffering, to return us to health and joy.....but I don't believe the long term solution lies in more drugs.

I believe we will all heal if we taper slowly, don't add more drugs, and do what we can to support our systems - 1. relaxation/connection  2. eat healthy  3. sleep/rest  4. exercise (lightly as long as we are in w/d)

 

Peace to you all!

 

Well said Libr.

[[li...]]

Diclyclomine/Dicycloverine, a very old drug. It acts on the muscarinic receptors. I'm not sure which ones, it may not have been studied very well because it is so old.

 

Whether a drug like that is bad is very individual. In benzo withdrawal, there can be an overabundance of acetylcholine to put it simply. Blocking certain Ach receptors could cause issues. My first experience with an antimuscarinic drug caused long lasting adverse effects.

 

Not all antihistamines have anticholinergic properties. In a sensitized CNS, a new drug can cause problems. 'Was there a consensus about taking anticholinergics during withdrawal affecting our recovery?' I don't know. It's individual. Messing with neurotransmitter systems can cause problems. Not addressing problems can cause problems too. I would humbly suggest you consider not taking it if you don't need it ... it's hard to say.

 

Going way back in time here, back to the first page of this thread. Liberty and CS123 were having a discussion about possibly staying away from anticholinergic drugs. I've had three adverse reactions to medications this year, which led to me being in this mess. The first reaction included shaking, muscle fascinations and jerks, tachycardia, hypertensive crisis, and panic after taking my Remeron the day after taking tryptophan- which led to me discontinuing the Remeron and subsequently going into a severe antidepressant withdrawal. The second adverse reaction was when I took doxylamine (antihistamine) two weeks later to try and sleep. The exact same thing happened to me. From then on, I dealt with surges, fear, dysautonomia, etc which led to me being put on Klonopin and now tapering. The surges, fear, and autonomic symptoms for the most part cleared up over the next nine months while tapering the K although tinnitus, parasthesia, low-stress resistance, tight gut, and anxiety has persisted. Then the Klonopin withdrawal started to hit as I tapered which brought on a bunch of other symptoms. I've been functional (able to do moderate to light exercise, work full-time, raise a baby) but it hasn't been a walk in the park.

 

Then, a few days ago, I took half a Bentyl ( anticholinergic) for severe IBS pain. Within about 10 minutes I knew something was wrong and the shaking, jerks, and tachycardia commenced like the other two times although it was not as bad and I didn't have to go to the ER like the last two times. Since then, the dysautonomia came back for a few days (fluctuating HR at rest, exercise/activity intolerance, POTS) but has since started to let up the last two days.

 

I tried to see if there was a pattern to the three drugs. Anti-histamines have anticholinergic activity, and Remeron at the low dose has anti-histamine properties. I can' find a variable that exists between all three classes of medications that would cause such a reaction for me.

 

I wonder if I set myself back to square one by taking an anticholinergic. I don't feel as terror-stricken with complete insomnia, agitation, pseudo-akasthisia, arrhythmia, anxiety, and DP/DR etc as I did when all this began 9 months ago, but I feel off.  Perhaps it's just a wave, or increased inflammation as I just got over a cold, my cuts catching up,  or perhaps something else due to the anticholinergic activity. Was there a consensus about taking anticholinergics during withdrawal affecting our recovery? I know this isn't a support thread, so I'm not here asking for help with my taper, but there's a lot of buddies who appreciate research on this thread and seem to know more neuroscience than our p-docs lol. Perhaps someone has an answer to what happened to me, or has a suggestion to mitigate it going forward?

[[li...]]

Librium is a (very) low potency benzodiazepine, diazepam is a medium potency benzodiazepine, lorazepam is a high potency benzodiazepine.

Also, Librium has a (very) weak affinity for the alpha 1 subunit. I'm not sure about the duration of action, but it has a long half life.

 

These things have implications. In a nutshell, it's very complicated.

 

Ok. Lets restart. From the purely scientific point of view, what is the advantage of a Librium taper over a Valium taper?

 

My particular understanding is that Librium is an extremely weak anti-convulsant (weaker than valium, much weaker than Lorazepam or Clonazepam). Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

 

If a person withdrawing has some "rebound" issues of "convulsive" nature and was/is on a higher potency benzodiazepine, would it actually be logical for that person to be on an additional anti-convulsant should they ever switch to a weaker bzd such as Librium? Apparently, Neurontin/Gabapentin seems to be one way to go, but I have also seen a few members here report their experiences with Tiagabine/Gabitril.

 

I don't endorse drugs like Depakote, but they are considered to be a GABA transaminase inhibitor type of drugs. Per Prof. Ahston, there is no shortage of GABA in the system. It's those downregulated GABA receptors. But I beg to differ and would say that the problem is in the under-performing GABA system, and not just GABA receptors not working. It is the whole system that had been turbo-charged (kindled) in ways that particular engine wasn't equipped to be turbocharged.

 

So, here we have a car on the side of the road, still driveable, but the engine is smoking a little bit. There is a local mechanic offering some suggestions, and one of them is Depakote for smoother temperature regulation. Prof H. Ashton argues that the act of driving the car will heal it and that such repairs are unneeded an unnecessary, but the mechanic is saying that the engine may not go for much longer without bigger repairs until Depakote oil has been added in to inhibit the breakdown of GABA and make the system more efficient, at least temporarily.....

[[li...]]

I think cs123 has indicated he will not continue on this thread, and I suspect that for the most part that will end my participation as well.

[[Re...]]

I think cs123 has indicated he will not continue on this thread, and I suspect that for the most part that will end my participation as well.

 

It's true that CS123 has been the backbone of this thread.  It's benefited from contributions from people like YOU though too, and others.  Perhaps it won't be so active but I hope that when postings happen from time to time we can all check in and put our two cents worth forward.

 

For example.  As usual, the ongoing research and consideration of options led me to consider trying N-acetyl cysteine. Why?  Well, it influences glial cell uptake and release of glutamate through glt1 glutamate transporters and xC proteins, a subunit of the cystine/glutamate exchanger.  Of course, I have concerns about extrasynaptic glutamate concentrations.  Also, I'd like to find ways to get down on my gabapentin because I am stalled, stuck, and struggling with it even though my dose is 'low'.  So, over the last 4 days I have been been taking NAC at 600mg BID until yesterday whereupon I took it only during the afternoon in 1 dose.

 

About an hour to an hour and a half after taking NAC, I experienced a significant increase in my burning pain sensations.  By the time I took my evening dose the pain had settled a little bit but again increased afterward.  This pattern continued over the last few days consistently.  Yesterday, I took the dose in the afternoon to see if the pattern followed NAC dosing and sure enough, an hour and 15 minutes later, my burning pain increased. 

 

While this sucks, it is fascinating to me given that NAC  research  has found support for it's analgesic capability in neuropathic pain. So, just curious if others have any opinions or experiences with NAC that weren't positive.  I'm really disappointed as I was hoping to reduce extrasynaptic glutamate with it as NAC modulates glutamate transporters and the cystine / glutamate antiporter system. (Interestingly, it is purported to have a role in the chelation of toxins.  I was exposed to a high amount of toxins, especially in childhood, up until the age of 30.  Anyway, that's a bit outside the scope of this forum).  Just curious about others.  Did anyone have problems to begin with and then they resolved with NAC?  Or any other experiences?

 

-RST