Any suggestions to use anything for tapering other than Librium or diazepam ?

[[li...]]

Well, I don't think that the Seroquel dose was too low. Basically, when 'GABA' is too low no drug will touch that ... or something like that.

 

I can take the MM into consideration. But many months ago I read about it and at the time it didn't seem 'the' solution.

I just checked, CBD oil is available in several varieties.

 

In a nutshell, I just don't think I have what it takes (health, a little muscular and well-functioning body) to do a 'regular' clonazepam taper. And yes, I should get a local doc who is sufficiently benzo-wise. It's just that it seems they are non-exisistant.

Here, being 'benzo-wise' means that a doc won't start you on benzo's ... that's where it ends ...

And they have very little experience with the high potency benzos. I think alprazolam is mainly prescribed by psychiatrists, lorazepam may be prescribed by about any doc but almost noone 'knows' clonazepam.

 

My health is just really bad ... lousy medical system, you *need* a referral by the GP (but even by those standards my situation was somewhat extreme) and I pretty much got no healthcare. 'negative healthcare' so to speak, because what did happen did cost me time, money, health. Not exactly realistic that I'll get healthy just by tapering, but I'll guess I'll have to pretend and hope that whatever else ails me will get better on its own.

The 'no can do' mentality is overwhelming.

[[be...]]

Liberty:

 

Well, I know my gaba is low and the seroquel helps me a lot, as I have had no difficulties, even tapering 6.5 mg of klonopin. My Val taper is also going very well. I really think that helped me a lot. I will get off it at the proper time. Seems like you are sensitive to meds, so that may be one reason. Me, I can take anything. Even MSG...... I have kept all of your posts and read them and I really don't know what you should do, as you can't taper off long acting or short acting ones. I think CBD oil might be your only chance. And pls don't buy it OTC, as it is pretty much worthless. If you want the name and email of the guy who picks out the right one, his name is Ezra and here is his web address. It takes him about two days to get back to you. I don't know if he charges for long distant calls. You also have a difference in your hours.

 

http://www.thehighend.org/

 

Betsy

[[li...]]

Maybe I need to force myself on diazepam ... I don't know. Curious what your psych will say, but I have my experiences with docs ...

[[li...]]

I'm just saying, this thread is very 'open' ... 

[[li...]]

OK then ... Benzogirl is bound to her 'omerta' so I'm not going to get a reply from her/her doc.

 

It's a long thread. In brief: I don't think I can do a 'regular' 'straight' taper off this drug.

 

Clonazepam lasts about one day, maybe not a full 24 hours but I manage. That lorazepam taper thingie didn't help, I'm very kindled or whatever.

 

On the subject of forcing myself on another drug: aside from the downsides of diazepam itself, it comes with a 'bath' of metabolites (not good), it accumulates a lot, everywhere in the body. Just a very messy drug. I'd prefer an alternative.

 

On Tranxene: I'm just not sure how I'd taper. Aside from being a very different drug, it is is shorter acting (requiring 3-4 times a day dosing?) but has a 50-100 hour half life. Honestly, I wouldn't know how to taper that.

 

I don't see how Librium would be better.

 

I do know that my body will attempt to adjust to any (new) benzodiazepine, they are all different (more or less) and I'd prefer a drug that is more or less 'clean'. (not a 'bath' of metabolites)

 

Any suggestions ?

[[li...]]

I guess nobody knows what to do with this but anyway ... :

 

My impression is that ever since I've been on the lorazepam (which I took BID) I've been suffering interdose withdrawal on the clonazepam in the afternoon.

 

Now, I can't just split the clonazepam dose (2mg) because of paradoxical/mixed effects, effects that depend on the time of day I take it etc.

 

There is nothing harmless about this. Anyone want to comment ?

 

Aside from the fact that I took lorazepam BID rather than the clonazepam at night, I think that the lorazepam also downregulated GABA or something like that.

[[li...]]

And you know, sometimes I get it into my head that I need to try diazepam again ... you're probably sorry you're reading this ...

 

Last time when I tried a woke up after a few hours. Later followed by adrenaline surges etc. These things are getting worse and worse ...

 

Would there be a way to make the evening dose of diazepam 'last longer' ? As in, timing doses or ?

Again, the clonazepam is taken once a day. Diazepam BID with a small dose in between to avoid interdose withdrawal ... I could do TID but I can't cut the evening dose by too much.

 

[[Ki...]]

Grapefruit juice blocks the enzyme that breaks down one of the Valium metabolism pathways. Im still experimenting with it but eating a half a grapefruit a day is letting me dose twice a day instead of 4x. I know its not recommended but for fast metabolizers it can be used to its advantage.

[[li...]]

Thanks, but I doubt if if would be sufficiently effective ... it's all rather hardcore.

 

Today I posted: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=165899.0

 

Something about the motor cortex.

 

Now it's late in the evening, after taking the dose. I noticed something. Rather than the ever rigid muscle fibers (with obvious implications for the central nervous system, in some ways it's like overtraining) and those muscle fibers seem mostly normal.

That never happened before I started that failed lorazepam taper early 2015. I took the lorazepam BID, clonazepam always once a day.

 

So what am I to do ? Take a daytime dose of clonazepam. Double up the daily dose ? I can't cut the evening dose by 50 %, it's not all about blood plasma levels !

 

Really ? Seriously ? Will someone shoot me ? Talk about 'complications' ! This is both about health, and 'taperability' (I know it's not a word!)

 

(as a reference, people taking the drug for epilepsy usually take it once a day, panic/anxiety 2-3 times a day, me: muscle relaxant!)

 

[[Ki...]]

Im sure you are far more educated than I am on this. I only tried it when I read about grapefruit juice being used for chemo patients to allow for a lesser dose but still getting adequate treatment results, with lessened side effects. I figured it would work for me since I had my DNA test showing both my valium pathways were screwed up, and luckily it did. Good luck to you, hope you find something that works for you.

[[li...]]

Did I post this somewhere else ?

 

Ever since I was on lorazepam which I took BID (failed taper, idea GP), I've been in some kind of 'tolerance withdrawal'. The clonazepam seems 'too weak'. Also, since I dose only in the evening it seems like I'm in some kind of W/D in part of the afternoon/evening.

 

A couple of days ago when I was outside for over an hour, that activity (I don't even want to call it exercise) seemed to have a hormonal effect, breaking down muscle tissue. As evidenced in the days after ...

 

It's not good, not safe. If I don't do anything at all, it's not good either. Diazepam as the miracle drug ? Nope. To go to an endocrinologist with that story and pay out of pocket (can't count on GP) ... How do I reverse that lorazepam thing ? Get off everything, and then I will recover ? I'm already at an age when the body is breaking down ... Major hormonal issues, apparently somewhat extreme.

[[Pi...]]

Yes, SWIM went from taking 10+ 2mg Xanax bars a day to nothing by using GHB.  They had now complaints during the withdrawal process.  They did get a prescription for seizures just in case. 

[[li...]]

That was enlightening  ... maybe I should switch from K to X to GHB ...

[[To...]]

Currently on clonazepam. Aside from 'paradoxical' reactions, a harsh effect/side effect profile and my poor health, anything else to use to get off clonazepam?

 

Nobody seems to know. Aside from diazepam being so short acting and nasty in general, it is so depressing and different.

                                     

                                   

                                    Half life worth

 

 

Prazepam (Lysanxia)  :        42-100

 

Clorazepam  (Tranxene) :    42-90

[[li...]]

Somewhat serious question, but for as far as answers go ...

 

Please bear with me ...

 

My problem isn't 'just the benzo'. Aside from some other issues, there are major hormonal issues, not neceserrily having anythithing to do with the benzo - although there probably is a link.

 

Then there is the benzo ... (aside from paradoxical issues) it's half sedative, half stimulant.

While this may vary, it is not uncommon to get an acute stimulating effect after taking the evening dose, some kind of hormonal surge. Now, you could say taper ... but when you're functioning at the point of survival, not normally, you're a wreck ... Even aside from other issues, a tiny dose cut could make the difference between sleep and insomnia. Get the picture ? (probably also paradoxical)

 

Probably hard to understand for Americans, but there is no free choice of physician over here ...and money doesn't talk unless you go abroad.

 

Diazepam and its equivalents are not suitable (see effects above, and diazepam is just a nasty drug at 40 mg)

 

I've been trying to find help, somewhere, anywhere (mostly in this country) from medical professionals, sources that would point to doctors who could help - either help me to fix my health issues or to get me off this drug in a sensible manner. You don't know how lucky you are to live in the USA. Anyone Psychiatrists usually want to diagnose and treat mental illnesses or are not interested, addictions doctors mostly don't know anything, GPs mostly know squat.

Here the GP is the gatekeeper, you need a referral to get insurance to pay or to see a specialist at all.

And on top of all, the GP thinks it's mental/psychiatric which he managed to conceal from me for a very long time ... very hard to change GP in the same town ... they all stick together

I'm dying slowly ...

I could think of an endocrinologist, but without a referral by the GP I suspect I would get the 'it's not an illness', taper the benzo first attitude.

 

Basically they want me to shut up and either recover or die slowly ...

 

Any way to approach this ? I might be able to do cold turkey but the drama would be such that I'd really need that cabin in the woods for years, or something like that. (lack of money...)

Ideas ?

[Guest [Le...]]

Now, you could say taper ... but when you're functioning at the point of survival, not normally, you're a wreck ... Even aside from other issues, a tiny dose cut could make the difference between sleep and insomnia. Get the picture ? (probably also paradoxical)

 

Insomnia is probably the Number One battle everyone is fighting here. The only solution to stopping the insomnia is to get off the benzos, and then wait.

 

Switching benzos won't help you avoid insomnia. But once you are off benzos for good, sleep will eventually return on its on.

[[li...]]

LeslieAsh,

 

Right ... but I was more specifically referring to some kind of hypersensitivity/paradoxical that can make you go all over the place with this drug if you're not functional at all ... And insomnia=total insomnia or something close to that. It shouldn't happen to that extent in the beginning of a long taper.

 

Correction: there is much more going on, of course.

[Guest [Le...]]

LeslieAsh,

 

Right ... but I was more specifically referring to some kind of hypersensitivity/paradoxical that can make you go all over the place with this drug if you're not functional at all ... And insomnia=total insomnia or something close to that. It shouldn't happen to that extent in the beginning of a long taper.

 

Once benzos become paradoxical, a slow taper is (likely to be) useless - that is why I personally had to RT/CT. I never slept more than 3 hours a night for more than nine months. Many nights I had less than an hour of sleep, and many other nights ZERO sleep.

 

The insomnia never let up until after I jumped.

 

If the slightest cut is a problem for you, what kind of relief from insomnia are you expecting?

[[li...]]

See correction above.

 

That's actually an interesting point of view. I've been asking the question 'what to do if paradoxical ?' over and over, without response.

 

But did you rapid taper ot CT ?

 

Actually, in my case I think it's partly paradoxical ... both stimulating and sedating properties.

I asked that very question to the GP about three years ago ... there were a few other issues and he asked me to wait ... got bad advice, etc.

 

3 hours a night would be a lot. Not sleeping for a few months would be the worst I would have expected in 2013, it would be so much worse now ... a bit in HipHop's style, just different.

CT ? I don't know. Psychoses, severe convulsions, heart attacks, cardiac arrest, severe physical pain, death ?

 

I don't see how I can do a rapid taper ... speaking from experience, and ever since that lorazepam thing it seems impossible ... I read your signature 'Medically supervised rapid taper' What did that mean ?

 

[Guest [Le...]]

That's actually an interesting point of view. I've been asking the question 'what to do if paradoxical ?' over and over, without response.

 

But did you rapid taper ot CT ?

 

Actually, I answered your PM question about that on August 24th, if you'd like to check there and read it again. We've talked about it a few times already.

[[li...]]

Right, sorry about that. I just read the messages again.

 

My health'care' has been on a completely different level ...

In truth, it's not looking good for me.

 

And as a side note, diazepam is way too messy for me (relatively short duration of action, massive accumulation, metabolites, binding to the wrong receptors) and again, very different. I'd expect something similar from Librium.

 

I think I need something else than just clonazepam or diazepam ...

 

With lorazepam you can do a rapid taper ... but clonazepam has a long half life (about two days for me), which makes a rapid taper just not sensible ... Normally, you'd need to keep the dose stable for at least to weeks to get a new stable plasma blood level ...

That long half life is a third of the problem, the other third is what the drug actually does and the last third is my health !

[[li...]]

I guess in the end, after some many problems, you just don't have a choice except doing some kind of CT ... ?

[[li...]]

Sorry about all the drama ... I would rather edit a post but since that is no longer possible.

 

Sometimes there are too many contradictions. Ideally I should get 'off', CT is hardly ideal especially in my situation, (if possible I shoudl recover first) diazepam is way too messy and I can't do Ashton ... pheno would be hard to get, it would be a do-it-yourself thing, the anticonvulsants (oxcarbazepine etc.) including valproate might help but I may be way to sick to just switch to such a drug ...

 

Diazepam just sits in the tissues but has no proper duration of action.

I have considered taking using an 'equivalence' of 1 mg clonazepam=10 mg diazepam. I would stop sleeping ... Not to mention other issues but at least there would be less 'addiction'.

 

I wish there was an option for detox but all they do here is load you up on diazepam, followed by a rapid taper.

 

Yesterday I mentioned I the KK thread that many years ago I learned that exercising after taking clonazepam would render the exercise useless, in the sense of just not working to maintain or gain muscle. One can only imagine what happens while tapering or tolerance withdrawal.

Losing muscle rapidly is a given, but pretty much each successive time I try it goes faster ... which by itself causes a whole list of problems.

 

An ultra rapid taper ? It would leave me kindled and ravaged. I think I feel a little like HipHop ...

 

It's hard to make sense of this. It looks like I need to do the impossible. I was mostly fine three years ago before I started messing with doctors, or should I say doctors messing with me.

 

Some kind of 'do or die' taper (rapid clonazepam taper) ? It's late in the afternoon, and everything is getting harder. I tend to get chaotic reactions to the drug, (As in more sedating/less sedating, does more, does less ...) which is getting worse.

 

At least this thead gets a record number of views ...

 

I guess I could ask 'when to CT, and when not to CT' ?

[[li...]]

Bumping the thread ... after having read all the posts again.

 

I updated my signature.

 

And again, clonazepam has mixed/paradoxical effects, pretty much non taperable (not 'normally', and I'm not 'healing' while I taper). I've been a complete mess since I switched to lorazepam (2 mg BID) and back. I suspect that clonazepam sensitizes the CNS, tapering that does it even more.

I tried the liquid, faster acting, shorter acting, different effect. It appears I'm oversensitive to the drug.

 

I just can't trust the local docs. Quoting myself 'if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys'.

 

Pheno would be very hard to get in this country, as no doc has experience with it. The doc administering pheno would need guidance. Let's say I'm somewhere in Europe.

Docs in the USA tend to 'shower' people with drugs, here it is the opposite. No wonder most people here are against the drugs, but earlier this year the GP refused to prescribe Lyrica/gabapentin ... That doesn't mean it's impossible to get ...

 

Switching to a different benzo would not be a bad idea.

Diazepam and the other diazepam-like  drugs (Librium, Tranxene) are more or less the same.

I don't like the accumulation of diazepam and it's metabolites ('benzo bath')

In a nutshell: I haven't been able to do it ! very different, and 'short acting'.

A different benzo ? Which one ? It seems there is a lack of choice ...

A different drug ?

 

Comparing benzogirl's experience with mine, she went from K 3 times a day to V 3 times a day. That's already a bit more simple ...

 

I'm not sure what's worse, my health or the 'dependence' on the K. Past experiences suggest tapering K 'normally' would be an olympic achievement. Untreated health issues and experience with lorazepam/anticholinergics='complications' (!)

 

Well ... if anyone wants to try ... I could try something internationally, but that would be without insurance, and I'm not rich.

[[li...]]

Reviving an old thread ...

 

A new year, but not better ...

 

Diazepam, I noticed has a relatively long half life, massive accumulation, but short duration of action.

Sometimes it is as if diazepam is released from the fat and I feel sedation ...

 

Well, looking into anticonvulsants or ANYTHING that could help.

Maybe I should have stuck to that lorazepam ... on the other hand, it was such a mess.

 

I'm just not good with drugs that have a short duration of action but a very long half life.

 

Not to start an argument, but what was Ashton thinking when she put people on diazepam ? The most lipophilic benzo, short onset of action, short duration of action since it redistributes so quickly.

There is the 'half life' and that certainly does something, but it is no match for the doa of the high potency benzos.

 

Clonazepam is so unique. Well, I could use the help of an expert. Always that line 'it's just the benzo, you're fine' (NOT! on both counts)

Reg Peart talk about gabapentin for withdrawal from this drug, but I haven't been able to find many sources ...

 

Again, suggestions ?