The Dizziness Group: For those who are floating, boating, falling or flying

[[...]]

I saw this one on the sidebar, Lap, haven't read it yet but this headline caught my eye, "Perception of self-motion in strong static magnetic fields", thought I'd throw it down here.

 

Vestibular stimulation by magnetic fields

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4409466/

[[La...]]

Thanks, abcd. Interesting! I never had an MRI for my dizziness, but I did have a CAT scan. This strong effect of MRIs on the vestibular system makes me wonder how useful this form of testing is for assessing dizziness. I think the last Johns Hopkins article said they were studying how to use the MRI to, perhaps, have a beneficial effect. I'm not sure where things are at present.

 

There's this 2016 NEJM article too:

 

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMicm1514075#t=article

 

Here's an excerpt from the article abcd just posted:

 

Dizziness in the presence of strong static magnetic fields

 

There have been many reports of transient dizziness or vertigo in patients, research subjects and other individuals working around magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scanners.1-3 These sensations occur more commonly in those exposed to higher strength magnetic fields.4-7 Prompted by these reports, researchers have measured physiological correlates, using outcomes such as visual tracking tasks,8 postural assessments7, 9, 10 and neurocognitive instruments11 administered just outside the MRI scanner. While results of these studies have supported effects of strong magnetic fields on posture and attention, they have been inconsistent across subjects and studies.

 

New measurable behaviors inside strong magnetic fields suggestive of direct inner ear stimulation are clarifying our understanding of the interactions between magnetic fields and the labyrinth and leading to fundamental new ways of stimulating the vestibular system. This review will explore current knowledge of how magnetic fields interact with the vestibular system in humans and other animals and propose a mechanism that explains the dizziness humans experience near strong static magnetic fields.

[Guest [Le...]]

Oh wow, I always learn stuff from you, Lapis!

 

I don't know if you recall the ... er ... 'vertical error' I had a few months back, but that occurred after a pronounced downward spiral that just happened to follow an MRI on my lumbar spine because of this crazy neuropathy.

 

Things have improved a lot since, but this sure makes me wonder if that was a part of it, yikes.

 

[[La...]]

Oh, of course I remember your "vertical error"! I guess you could say we're all "vertically challenged"! Anyway, yes, I was extremely concerned when you told us you'd fallen, and I think everyone needs to be very careful about things like that. It only takes a second for someone to lose his/her balance. Perhaps we should all be wearing the equivalent of bumpers, which are what you put on the outside of a sailboat as you're about to moor at the dock. 

 

I was thinking further about this last night, and I believe the MRI that's done for those who are dizzy is looking for structural issues. If that's the case, then it still makes sense to assess that, but one would have to be aware that the magnetic forces of the MRI could temporarily worsen the dizziness in some people. I'd love to hear what others think, though, since I'm just thinking out loud (well, on virtual paper) here.

 

 

[[La...]]

Hey Dizzy Buds,

How is everyone? Any nice windows? Is everyone staying upright and vertical most of the time? Hope so. I've got another 8 today, but it's a "wussy" 8, so I'm thinking it may drop down to a 7. Oh please, oh please, oh please! My legs and feet are aching from so many dizzy days in a row. Yesterday was a full-on nasty no-holds-barred 8 all day. I really need a break or a wizard or a fairy godmother or...... 

 

Have the best you possibly can under the circumstances! (The Weary Benzo Warrior's Wish) 

[[La...]]

So, it's hours later now, and it turns out that my 8 wasn't so "wussy" after all. I've been crying pretty much since I last wrote.  :'( 

[[...]]

Oh no, Lapsy, I saw your earlier post and was hoping it would improve over the course of the day.  As you know, I have that alternate left/right thing happening and within ten or so minutes of waking up, I have a fairly good idea as to what kind of a day lies ahead.  It's strange stuff cos I can take a nap even for, say, fifteen minutes and it sometimes shifts to the other side, so that's one of my strategies when the pain's at a high level, try and nap and hope it switches. 

 

I know you're typically not a napper, but can you relate at all, do you think a nap might help it along, even a very short one? 

 

 

PS - I still haven't managed to read that last MRI study I posted, hopefully will be able to do so soon.  It also piqued my curiosity because I'm wondering if they've ever considered a connection between MRIs and that spontaneous MdDS.

[[Yo...]]

After the boatiness started, I had a brain and cervical MRI done in one visit. 40 minutes of jackhammering and sounds to make your ears bleed. Anyway, it didn't impact negatively on my condition—but I suspect it caused my hyperacusis and subsequent tinnitus. I think I placed the plugs too loosely in my ears.

 

I'm suspecting now it's a form of spontaneous MdDS, perhaps the result of prolonged stress. I had been resisting having panic attacks for months prior to onset...

 

Lapis, I was reading on an MdDS site that walking on your bare feet may help right the brain by giving it more sensory information. I saw a specialist who recommended the same thing... Go out for walks, but not on the sidewalk in your shoes. Go for a walk in the park on bare feet.

[[La...]]

Oh no, Lapsy, I saw your earlier post and was hoping it would improve over the course of the day.  As you know, I have that alternate left/right thing happening and within ten or so minutes of waking up, I have a fairly good idea as to what kind of a day lies ahead.  It's strange stuff cos I can take a nap even for, say, fifteen minutes and it sometimes shifts to the other side, so that's one of my strategies when the pain's at a high level, try and nap and hope it switches. 

 

I know you're typically not a napper, but can you relate at all, do you think a nap might help it along, even a very short one? 

 

 

PS - I still haven't managed to read that last MRI study I posted, hopefully will be able to do so soon.  It also piqued my curiosity because I'm wondering if they've ever considered a connection between MRIs and that spontaneous MdDS.

 

Hi abcd,

I sometimes fall asleep sitting up if I've had a particularly rough time the night before, but no, I really can't nap. It makes me feel like I've been hit by a truck. It has always been thus. It's not a benzo thing; Just me. I'm too wired anyway. My heart was pounding out of my chest with the pain and dizziness all day, and I haven't been able to stop crying. I just want to be in a different body.

 

With the MRI, I believe it's just a transient thing. I don't think it causes any long-term issues. It's the effect of the magnet while the machine is working, from what I can tell, since there's even a mention of it affecting others who might be in the room. The second Johns Hopkins study seemed to suggest that they might be able to harness the effect and use it to help people. More study required, of course.

 

As far as "spontaneous MdDS" goes, I'd be really curious to know if it's truly spontaneous, or if there might be people who have taken benzos or SSRIs and been labelled as "spontaneous" MdDS sufferers for the purposes of that study we read.

[[La...]]

After the boatiness started, I had a brain and cervical MRI done in one visit. 40 minutes of jackhammering and sounds to make your ears bleed. Anyway, it didn't impact negatively on my condition—but I suspect it caused my hyperacusis and subsequent tinnitus. I think I placed the plugs too loosely in my ears.

 

I'm suspecting now it's a form of spontaneous MdDS, perhaps the result of prolonged stress. I had been resisting having panic attacks for months prior to onset...

 

Lapis, I was reading on an MdDS site that walking on your bare feet may help right the brain by giving it more sensory information. I saw a specialist who recommended the same thing... Go out for walks, but not on the sidewalk in your shoes. Go for a walk in the park on bare feet.

 

Hey Shook,

What do you mean? Why would you have "spontaneous MdDS" if you're still taking medication that acts as vestibular suppressant?

 

And yes, I'm not wearing shoes at all these days. No need. I'm stuck here at home. I do agree that feeling the ground is extremely important and that shoes can make some rehabilitation harder. There are many, many, many nerve endings in the foot so that they can give your brain information about the ground. It's part of proprioception, which is one-third of the balance picture. The other two-thirds are vision and the vestibular system. They all need to give the brain the same messages at the same time in order for balance to be normal. My vision and proprioception are normal. My vestibular system is a little, um,....off, let's say.

[[Yo...]]

I have no balance issues. At all. I can stand on one leg and even do a pirouette. I only feel the boatiness when lying down and completely still, and to a lesser extent when sitting still.

 

I have no other issues. Nada.

 

As my signature states, it happened towards the end of my micro-taper, which went super-smoothly. Like silk. Didn't even get a headache.

 

It's just academic anyway, and the curiosity that's killing me, but I can't be sure that it's the benzo that caused my particular kind of boatiness.

 

Have you heard of another case exactly like mine?

 

After searching the Web I was able to find one person on some forum whose case was identical. No exposure to passive motion or use of vestibular suppressants in her case. It just struck from out of the blue, and for her disappeared after 8 months just as fast and mysteriously as it appeared.

 

I was just grasping when I called it a "form" of MdDS. It just mimics it, but without the main feature, which is standing disequilibrium...

 

But the fact that it happened during my taper certainly puts a bunch of flashing arrows pointed at the Benzo.

 

As stated, I had been struggling with depression, anxiety, and the threat of panic attacks for a long time prior. So maybe it all built up and then one day last November, "bam".

 

You guys are welcome to have an academic discussion about it. I'm just wondering out loud. 

[[La...]]

I think there are lots of cases of unexplained dizziness out there. The more I read PubMed's vestibular studies, the more I see the challenges in dealing with dizziness in hospitals and clinics. A little while ago, I read a NYTimes article about how ear issues (hearing, balance, etc.) are getting more attention and study. I hope it's true. It's time for some answers.

 

I'm glad to hear that you're largely unaffected by your boatiness, Shook. That's a beautiful thing! I haven't heard of another case like yours, but that doesn't mean much. I'm just another gal on BB, trying to make her way to the other side. As far as I can see, there's no uniformity to the examples of dizziness here. Some have it in a mild form or for a short time, while others suffer terribly. Some don't get dizzy at all. It's all over the map.

 

I'm hoping we get some answers some day, but we might all have moved onto other things by then. I just want the suffering to stop. I don't want anyone else to go through this.

 

By the way, when I was young, we went sailing all the time. I LOVED the gentle rocking of the boat! It was soothing to me, and I felt calm. Even after we got off the boat, I had that gentle, rocking feeling for a few hours. That's quite normal. And it ALWAYS went away. But this.....this is a totally different beast. It's brutal and scary and relentless. It needs to stop.

 

Please let it stop.

 

For everyone.

 

[[Yo...]]

It's certainly unsettling, but not debilitating, which is why you'll never hear me complaining, Lapis. I pray everyone gets relief. And it's disgraceful and criminal that some of the doctors who dispense these pills aren't better informed. It's completely preventable. And this is 40 year old news... It's a blight on the medical community and it'll take some major legal intervention to set it all straight. Have lawsuits been filed and won that you know of, Lapis?

[[La...]]

I believe so -- in the UK, at least. I'm not sure about other places. Luke Montagu (a viscount) won a case, but I wasn't quite clear on which medication was the major culprit. He was on both SSRIs and a benzo, from what I could tell.

[[Yo...]]

It's going to take something much bigger to change things. But good for those few.

[[He...]]

To anyone in this group....I need help....I'm tapering Ativan and am having a terrible time with my taper and especially with dizziness, boatyness and nausea....along with extreme fatigue.  All I want to do is sit on the couch because I'm uncomfortable with the boatyness.......I'm guessing fatigue is being caused by inactivity...but I'm wiped out completely after a cut.....can barely get a shower...

Had a balance test done 6 months ago before I realized I was in tolerance.  I had just had an unsuccessful short trial I'd an AD....do not tolerate SSRIs.  The ENT thought it was the AD and sent me to a physical therapist for some balance training exercises.  Now that I'm tapering......I'm on my own.  I sometimes want to use a cane ....and the shower scares me....any coping help.  I have a long way to taper.  Thank you

[[He...]]

Also should mention that the dizziness and boatyness and nausea have gotten way worse with tapering...any help would be grateful....or is this just the way it's going to be?

[[La...]]

To anyone in this group....I need help....I'm tapering Ativan and am having a terrible time with my taper and especially with dizziness, boatyness and nausea....along with extreme fatigue.  All I want to do is sit on the couch because I'm uncomfortable with the boatyness.......I'm guessing fatigue is being caused by inactivity...but I'm wiped out completely after a cut.....can barely get a shower...

Had a balance test done 6 months ago before I realized I was in tolerance.  I had just had an unsuccessful short trial I'd an AD....do not tolerate SSRIs.  The ENT thought it was the AD and sent me to a physical therapist for some balance training exercises.  Now that I'm tapering......I'm on my own.  I sometimes want to use a cane ....and the shower scares me....any coping help.  I have a long way to taper.  Thank you

 

Hi Healing Seeker,

Both the SSRIs and the benzos can cause boaty dizziness, so it may be a combination of factors that's involved in your case. Either way, if you've had some testing done and you're pretty sure that there's no other ENT problem that needs to be addressed, then it's a matter of figuring out how to cope with the dizziness. By all means, use a cane, if you need to! Falling is no joke, and a cane might give you some help with your balance, although it can't really be used for weight-bearing at all. If you need to sit, sit. But it's good to stay as functional and physical as you can, within your tolerance. The fatigue might be caused by the withdrawal itself or from trying to deal with the dizziness. Lots of us feel that.

 

There's no reason to believe that "this is the way it's going to be"; No one can predict that. But it's good to keep in mind that this is part of withdrawal and that, like the other symptoms, it should go away as well. I hope you'll only be on this crazy boat for a short period of time. All of us here have different stories, and some are just here for a little while. Some others (like me!) have been sailing in these waters for a bit too long. You're welcome to hang out with us and jump in if you need some support. There aren't any "cures" per se, but I see that you're tapering and that you're obviously going in the right direction. Good for you!

 

Take care. Be safe. Don't fall. Stay strong.

[[He...]]

Thank you.  Any tips fir nausea. Does that go hand in hand with the dizziness?  Tips? Or just ride it out?  Appreciate your expertise

[[La...]]

Hi Healing Seeeker,

I haven't had any nausea at all, so I'm hoping someone else around here might weigh in on that one. If it were me, I'd try ginger tea or mint tea. Both of those are good for stomach and digestive issues, and they shouldn't have any negative effects, as far as I know. There might be other safe herbs to try for nausea too. I'd stay away from camomile, though, since it's on the list of herbs that might affect GABA. Perhaps eating smaller, more frequent meals rather than three large ones might help. I'd experiment to see whether that's a factor in your case.

 

Nausea does often go with certain kinds of dizziness, e.g. motion sickness, but it's also on the (very long) list of possible withdrawal symptoms. There are just so many things that can be part of this crazy ride! I do hope it all passes quickly for you.

[[He...]]

Grateful for your kindness

[[La...]]

Take care! Jump in here anytime! 

[[Yo...]]

Hi Healing Seeker! 

 

What do you think of Gravol for nausea, Lapis? Could it hurt?

 

It could be from the stress of your overall situation and not necessarily a withdrawal effect, Healing Seeker.

 

A simple case of nerves made me nauseous as a kid going to swimming lessons, to the point of heaving. But I got my certification patch anyway. 

 

Take care.

[[La...]]

Nooooooo! No Gravol! It's an anticholinergic, and it has effects on the central nervous system (CNS). There's lots of info on it, but here's a 2016 CTV article that points to some of the dangers. The anticholinergics are also vestibular suppressants, like benzodiazepines and antihistamines, and so they interfere with vestibular compensation if taken over a period of time. A once-in-awhile dose might be okay, but I'd urge anyone to do a bit of reading before taking such a medication on an ongoing basis.

 

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/common-over-the-counter-drugs-may-be-harming-seniors-brains-study-1.2873038

 

And the BBC had this article on the subject:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-30988643 

 

If someone is just joining this group and hasn't seen this link regarding medications and dizziness, it's a good one to read:

 

http://vestibular.org/understanding-vestibular-disorders/treatment/vestibular-medication 

 

[[Yo...]]

I know better than to give advice without asking you first, Lapis.