The Dizziness Group: For those who are floating, boating, falling or flying

[[Be...]]

Ashton made that comment about people taking symptoms to their graves somewhere besides the Asthon manual.  That manual is very old.  I don't remember where I read, but I certainly did read it.  She also made the comment in the Ashton manual about the GABA receptors not upregulating in the shape they were supposed to be in, being slightly altered, etc., so less effective with using GABA and a person would end up being more sensitive.  That's in the manual.  And that says to me that there are permanent changes with the GABA receptors.  If they don't come up their original form, then they're damaged. 

[[pr...]]

Becks,

Are you referring to certain literature by Dr. Ashton that you can share with us? I've just checked the Ashton Manual once again, and it might be worthwhile for you to have a look at this section here, especially the parts I highlighted:

 

 

 

Ashton does state in that "benzo medical disaster" here: 

 

i think somewhere in that video Ashton states that "some people can have symptoms that seem permanent" and i also know what Beck is talking about as i read that too but right now i will have to try to remember where i read that. i thought it was somewhere towards the end of The Ashton Manual but will have to look that up when i can.

[[...]]

I take Ashton's word above anyone else's when it comes to this benzo damage stuff.  She ran a home for people coming off the pills and worked with and studied patients for many years and wrote tons of peer reviewed research papers.  She's highly respected.  If she said she's witnessed people going to their graves with symptoms, then I'll believe her.  Sounds permanent enough to me.  I won't bury my head in the sand.

 

This question and discussion comes up over and again on BB.  This link pretty much sums up my thoughts on it ...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=167715.msg2245175#msg2245175

 

I truly don't understand what expectations some people have when they talk about 100% healed.  It almost seems like they're expecting to be super human and not experience the slightest discomfort ever again, and only then will they ever claim 100% recovery.  Physically, mentally, psychologically, spiritually ... forever more it shall be blamed on the "permanent" damage they received when withdrawing from a benzo. 

 

Why is this? 

 

If two tour buses collided and 100 people were injured.  Would all those passengers then be on a "Tour Bus Collision" forum debating whether everyone eventually healed 100% or not?  Maybe a bit of a radical analogy, I know ... but seriously, it's not that far off ... 

 

We do need to be realistic and try and stay grounded. 

 

And another thought.  That excerpt from the Ashton manual flies in the face of the nonsensical and meaningless BB mantra "Only Time Heals".  To me, that implies we're absolutely helpless, it's all in the hands of the almighty or the universe (or whomever) and happens on a cellular level over which we have no control.  We all know that with certain symptoms it's just basic 101 that there are many, many things we can do to help ourselves heal more quickly.  Particularly the "mental"/emotional/psychological symptoms.  The unfortunate part is that sometimes we can be in a catch 22 situation for one reason or another.  It's complicated stuff this, no doubt about it.    I just find it frustrating to see members effectively molly-coddling and enabling one another, but by the same token I guess everyone has to go through their own process. 

 

It's these hard core weird and wonderful stubborn physicals though that are the killer.  Being at wits end and feeling so helpless and powerless and at the mercy of this thing called "time"  > 

 

Anyhow, just some late night ramblings, I guess.   

[[pr...]]

do you know what is becoming one of the mantra's among some of the long time protracted folks abcd?

 

 

"i didn't start really healing until i stopped taking all supplements"...

 

now i do wonder if there is really something to that.

[[...]]

Perhaps there is and perhaps there isn't.   

Hope you're feeling a little better, Pretty, and that you get some decent sleep tonight.

[[pr...]]

Perhaps there is and perhaps there isn't.   

Hope you're feeling a little better, Pretty, and that you get some decent sleep tonight.

 

 

thank you, me too as last night was another brutal sleepless night that could have been avoided since i was falling into a beautiful slumber at the 1:30am mark when i stupid car decided to drive through our very private road and startle the injury which then wakes up and starts me squeezing and pressure and then isn't able to fall back under. i was screaming the whole night "one car!" "one car did this to me!" -- better happen again tonight because i am back logged on my dreaming.

 

i know i will be tons and heaps better when i am not so startled and left awaken and squeezing by sounds. the injury (i now call it) definitely has a mind of it's own and i guess i'd better start addressing it when it gets so startled. i swear it's like a little entity.

[[La...]]

Hi All,

That video called "Benzodiazepine Medical Disaster" was discussed a lot around here when it first came out. We know little about the filmmaker, and that's problematic. What's his story? From my perspective, it was an unbalanced look at the issue. He did not show one person who had come out the other side, which provided a highly skewed -- negative -- view of the situation. I'm still waiting for a good, balanced, investigative journalism-type of program that provides a clearer picture of the issues surrounding benzodiazepines.

 

I have to reiterate that we cannot know with any certainty about absolute healing or absolute permanence of any of this. That's impossible. Unless and until medical science becomes perfectly able to test everything and predict everything, we just cannot expect to have all answers to all questions about all medical conditions. But we DO have the benefit of learning from others who have more experience with what we're currently going through. Had this happened to us pre-internet or even pre-BB, we all would have been quite alone and in a much worse place.

 

That quote that I pulled from the Ashton Manual last night has some great suggestions about positive things we can try to do for ourselves. Maybe we can add to the list. For me, it's important to reach out and seek help from others who can help me. It's also important to keep reading and learning and challenging my brain. And despite the fact that walking is currently quite excruciating for me, I keep getting up and trying to move around, and I do a set of basic exercises. BB is definitely part of my "Get Well Package" too, but I keep in mind that it has certain obvious limitations.

 

abcd, thanks for the thoughtful input on this one. I really appreciate your ideas, and I'm going to re-read your post.

 

Becks, please take the best care of yourself that you can under the circumstances. I know you're really struggling and you have a lot on your plate. Have you sought out any help of any kind? Physical, psychological, spiritual? Is there anything you can do to make things even a bit better for yourself? Please keep some space for hope in your life.

 

 

 

[Guest [Le...]]

Hi abcd, I just wanted to make a note about 'time heals,' and it's a small but important distinction: Time actually does bring healing, and that is the basis of the concept's repetition on BB to the point of it becoming a mantra.

 

However, in adding this word to say 'ONLY time heals,' the statement immediately becomes false, as a number of factors contribute to healing. What I have seen repeated on BB are mostly phrases such as, 'We heal over time' and 'Time is the great healer.' Adding the word 'only' is what makes the concept meaningless.

 

Ultimately, benzo withdrawal and recovery very likely will take some time  regardless of any other remedy to which one may resort - and in my own case, it certainly applies to dizziness, and a bunch of other persistent issues.

 

So I firmly believe you're gonna heal over time along with the rest of us.

 

 

Lapis, I'm rereading your post, and negativity vs. positivity is a huge factor, as well as physically pushing back as much as possible. 

 

I truly don't understand what expectations some people have when they talk about 100% healed.  It almost seems like they're expecting to be super human and not experience the slightest discomfort ever again, and only then will they ever claim 100% recovery.  Physically, mentally, psychologically, spiritually ... forever more it shall be blamed on the "permanent" damage they received when withdrawing from a benzo. 

 

Why is this? 

 

If two tour buses collided and 100 people were injured.  Would all those passengers then be on a "Tour Bus Collision" forum debating whether everyone eventually healed 100% or not?  Maybe a bit of a radical analogy, I know ... but seriously, it's not that far off ... 

 

We do need to be realistic and try and stay grounded. 

 

And another thought.  That excerpt from the Ashton manual flies in the face of the nonsensical and meaningless BB mantra "Only Time Heals".  To me, that implies we're absolutely helpless, it's all in the hands of the almighty or the universe (or whomever) and happens on a cellular level over which we have no control.  We all know that with certain symptoms it's just basic 101 that there are many, many things we can do to help ourselves heal more quickly.  Particularly the "mental"/emotional/psychological symptoms.  The unfortunate part is that sometimes we can be in a catch 22 situation for one reason or another.  It's complicated stuff this, no doubt about it.    I just find it frustrating to see members effectively molly-coddling and enabling one another, but by the same token I guess everyone has to go through their own process. 

 

It's these hard core weird and wonderful stubborn physicals though that are the killer.  Being at wits end and feeling so helpless and powerless and at the mercy of this thing called "time"  > 

 

Anyhow, just some late night ramblings, I guess. 

[[La...]]

Ah, the English language! It's a tricky thing. And how we use words can make such a difference. Thanks, LeslieAsh, for the distinction re: "only". Very good points!

[[...]]

      [shadow=red,left]Happy Birthday, Shook[/shadow] 

 

 

           

 

 

 

You thought we'd forgotten, didn't ya, didn't ya? 

 

 

 

 

           

[[Yo...]]

 

Thanks abcd, you big sweetheart!

 

Does that cake say 8?? I'm 8 again!  :yippee:

 

And I just about choked on my own saliva after clicking on that link.

 

:smitten:

[[...]]

[[...]]

Hey Leslie.  Ah "time".  Anyone up to waxing philosophical?  

 

Well, glad to see we're almost on the same page.  Yep, this intangible we call "time", it actually heals nothing, time happens, time passes, and all events take place within time.  Therefore, o.b.v.i.o.u.s.l.y. our bodies do not heal because of or as a result of time.  They heal because there are a myriad of biological processes taking place(caused by xyz) during the passage of time.  I could split hairs over "Time actually does bring healing" because time actually does bring everything for that matter, including torturous suffering and death. 

 

However!  What *I* mostly see on BB absolutely includes the word "Only" (and if it doesn't, it more often than not certainly seems to be implied).  It's not used as a figure of speech or merely a platitude, it's genuinely their belief, the message is adamant and very loud and clear,  i.e.:  Be patient, healing is completely out of our hands, regardless of the symptom/s, regardless of what we do, no questions asked, same result. I've attempted to argue this point once or twice (or 50 times  ) in the past that there are many, *MANY* instances where we ourselves can either assist or hinder our own healing.  I've always been pushed back. 

 

From Perseverance:

 

The calcium entering the neuron can in turn activate protein kinases and transcription pathways.  This can trigger the establishment of LTPs within the neuron.  Once LTPs are established the only way to get rid of them is to let them fade away over time- which is why time is the only cure for benzo withdrawal.  Therefore, the best thing you can do is to try to prevent them from setting up in the first place or try to minimize their strength through a slow tapering off of the drug

 

A more recent one:

 

Like it or not.

 

Accept it or fight it.

 

Time is the only cure.

 

Tons and tons more.

 

Hope you're doing okay, Leslie, and that everyone manages an easier Sunday. 

[[La...]]

Well, maybe we can share ideas about what we can do to "assist our own healing" and avoid things that might "hinder our own healing". I listed a few of the things that help me in my situation. Anyone else?

[[Yo...]]

abcd, you know you're going to make yourself sick arguing semantics? Here's a mantra that should please everyone: "It's only within time that we shall heal!" 

 

What can assist in healing: taking care of your mind and body within your current capabilities. Taking a break from BB and having benzos on the brain 24/7.

 

What can hinder: negative thought patterns, being a victim, food sensitivities (experiment!), haphazardly popping supplements just cuz Joe or Jane Blo said they worked a miracle for him or her, and—this one's personal—don't eat a box of chocolates before bed just because it's your birthday. I'm really paying for it. 

 

But it's only within time that you'll heal. 

 

 

 

 

[[La...]]

Ah, yes, good one, Shook! I don't suppose it was 85% dark chocolate, in which case it would have been life-saving chocolate, I'm sure. (And remember: "My mom said life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.") 

 

One of my fave "assist in healing" things is reading a novel. Not only is it good to get lost in a story, but it's nice not to stare at the screen for awhile. I do too much of that.

 

The supplement question has been widely discussed around BB. I figure I'll let others do the experimentation, and then, if there's ever a "miracle supplement" that heals everyone, I might try it too. For now, I just take a few things that address my particular needs. I was pretty happy to finally chuck out those horse pills -- aka, multivitamin/mineral -- a bunch of years ago (three or four). It was quite freeing, and it saved me a load of $$. 

[[...]]

abcd, you know you're going to make yourself sick arguing semantics? Here's a mantra that should please everyone: "It's only within time that we shall heal!" 

 

 

Arguing semantics?  There are very few events in life that cause such prolonged agony, trauma and destruction, the likes of which we see on BB.  Inhuman suffering, lives in shambles, marriages/families torn apart, jobs/careers lost, financial ruin/bankruptcies/homelessness.  And suicides.  People come here distraught and in deep, deep pain, mentally and/or physically, seeking honest and reliable information sharing and peer support.  Fragile, vulnerable, very ill people, and some are very cognitively challenged and very suggestible. 

 

I'm not playing semantics here.  We're doing each other no favors by insisting everyone is powerless over this syndrome we loosely refer to as "withdrawal ".  Including attempting to back it up with some vague scientific explanation and adding to the mindless parroting of gaba-schmabba-blabber. 

 

Anyhow, take it or leave it, I really don't think I'm saying anything earth shattering or controversial, just stating the obvious as I see it. 

 

Whistling in the wind ... da da da ... 

 

PS - I just polished off two large chocolate bars in same amount of days, yummy!  Never been into supplements myself, I'd sometimes buy them and never finish the bottle ... but I did take magnesium for a good couple of years.

 

PPS - Hope you were spoiled a little for your birthday, Shook. 

 

[[Yo...]]

Point taken, abcd! Then keep crusading until "only" is stricken from the vocabulary of every BB! You could be made a special moderator!  That chocolate you're gorging on will make excellent fuel. 

 

And yes, I ate an entire box of chocolates, and woke up in the morning with a chocolate-smeared face, a heart tattoed on my arm that says "ABCD", and Mike Tyson's pet tiger in my apartment... 

 

It was a Laura Secord assortment that may have contained a piece of dark chocolate, Lapis. I get antioxidants from daily shots of pomegranate juice...

 

I think I stated my position on supplements before. If you take one and a symptom gets worse and stays worse, it could just be a coincidence, but you'll be plagued by the "what ifs" and "I wish I didn'ts".

 

The less substances you put in your body the better, be they natural or synthetic. I mean, that's how we got here right? And it's alarming that many are still under the impression that "natural" means "safe". Some are learning the hard way. But when desperate...

 

Reading is great if you have the patience for it, which I rarely do.

 

Reading anything at the moment?

 

[[La...]]

Wow, Shook! So much excitement at your place! Boxes of chocolate, pet tigers and new tattoos! At my place, things are much quieter. I was half-expecting to see your avatar changed to Forrest Gump, but perhaps you missed the chocolate box reference. Anyway, I'm glad you're getting your fill of antioxidants from one source or another. From what you've written, I'm guessing you don't get those in pill form.

 

I've never taken supplements with an expectation that they would magically transform my situation. When my hemoglobin and ferritin levels were low, I needed additional iron. It worked. My levels came up to "normal" again.

 

But with withdrawal, there's nothing quite as straightforward. Wouldn't it be great if there was a quick fix?

 

Of course, people are desperate for relief! This can be a brutal experience. And it's hard not to be taken in by some of the advertising and the health practitioners that promise cures or relief or improvements. I just have this feeling that if there was a magic bullet, we'd all know about it by now, and there would be no more need for BenzoBuddies. But here we all are! BB is more than 10 years old, and there are more new members every day.

 

Anyhoo, the book beside me right now is called "Pairs For One and Other Stories" by JoJo Moyes, whose work I've enjoyed over the past couple of years. It's likely called "Chic Lit", so probably not to everyone's liking. But the books I've read by her have been compelling, and they helped me get lost in a completely different world. Now that's a good thing when you're dizzy, in pain, scared and alone. It's way better than listening to the news today.....

 

:'(

[[Pu...]]

I had to come back to this thread since I've been hit with a horrible wave over the last week. I've been experiencing terrible dizziness. How is it even possible that I hadn't suffered with it in MONTHS that it's back almost 29 months post-jump?? Argh.

[[pr...]]

Hi All,

That video called "Benzodiazepine Medical Disaster" was discussed a lot around here when it first came out. We know little about the filmmaker, and that's problematic. What's his story? From my perspective, it was an unbalanced look at the issue. He did not show one person who had come out the other side, which provided a highly skewed -- negative -- view of the situation. I'm still waiting for a good, balanced, investigative journalism-type of program that provides a clearer picture of the issues surrounding benzodiazepines.

 

 

this is true. i just had a talk with Baylissa and we discussed Shane Kenny in that his story is still kinda up in the air and he may even still be on another drug/antidepressant or something of that matter. but i do like what Prof. Ashton says in that documentary especially about this drug problem being a pandemic and i think it's an over all good documentary that tells the story of how horrid and bad this drug is especially for the peeps who don't understand this iatrogenic illness. i do wish the filmmaker would update and show truth to his story though.

[[La...]]

Hi All,

That video called "Benzodiazepine Medical Disaster" was discussed a lot around here when it first came out. We know little about the filmmaker, and that's problematic. What's his story? From my perspective, it was an unbalanced look at the issue. He did not show one person who had come out the other side, which provided a highly skewed -- negative -- view of the situation. I'm still waiting for a good, balanced, investigative journalism-type of program that provides a clearer picture of the issues surrounding benzodiazepines.

 

 

this is true. i just had a talk with Baylissa and we discussed Shane Kenny in that his story is still kinda up in the air and he may even still be on another drug/antidepressant or something of that matter. but i do like what Prof. Ashton says in that documentary especially about this drug problem being a pandemic and i think it's an over all good documentary that tells the story of how horrid and bad this drug is especially for the peeps who don't understand this iatrogenic illness. i do wish the filmmaker would update and show truth to his story though.

 

Thanks for weighing in on that, prettydaisys. I watched the film one more time on Saturday, and really took note of how Shane Kenny put the film together. The only three people in the film were a man who committed suicide, Luke Montagu and then Kenny himself, about whom we were told little. I really would have liked to have more unedited versions of what each of those excellent doctors had to say. The film certainly has its place, and there's much good about it, but it wasn't balanced.

[[La...]]

I had to come back to this thread since I've been hit with a horrible wave over the last week. I've been experiencing terrible dizziness. How is it even possible that I hadn't suffered with it in MONTHS that it's back almost 29 months post-jump?? Argh.

 

Hi PugLover,

Did the dizziness just start suddenly one day? Is it the same kind of dizziness? Did anything precede it that you can point to? Any new medications or anything like that? I'm so sorry to hear it's back for you, but maybe it will go just as suddenly as it came. I really, really hope it's short-lived.

[[Yo...]]

All good questions, Lapis. Like abcd said, when in withdrawal, we tend to blame everything on it.

 

There are so many causes of dizziness (however you define it) and possible contributing factors that it's perhaps the most difficult symptom to diagnose accurately.

 

How about a Harlequin Romance, Lapis? Something with Fabio's painted likeness on the cover! 

 

 

[[La...]]

Hi Dizzy Buds,

I was checking PubMed for recent vestibular articles, and I came across this one on magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Like a Johns Hopkins article I posted some time ago, it looks at the effects of the MRI on the body, including the vestibular system. It's called "Magnetic resonance imaging : Recent studies on biological effects of static magnetic and high‑frequency electromagnetic fields".

 

Here's a key quote:

 

"RESULTS:  New studies confirm older publications that have already described effects of static magnetic fields on sensory organs and the central nervous system, accompanied by sensory perceptions. A new result is the direct effect of Lorentz forces on ionic currents in the semicircular canals of the vestibular system. Recent studies of thermal effects of high-frequency electromagnetic fields were focused on the development of anatomically realistic body models and a more precise simulation of exposure scenarios."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28555348