Vitamin C & Cortisol

[[Du...]]

The Vit C was part of the programme, but was actually on of the most useful products...I found the extreme mega dosing was the problem  - at times I was on 15,000mg a day.

 

Its actually not that expensive - 1 tea soon is 1600mg, and taking three spoons a day, you get well over two months use.

 

As for Quakwatch Bart, I think youll find lots of things are there that are real such as Adrenal Fatigue, so that holds no weight with me im afraid. Why not try yourself some lipo C, and then I doubt you;ll be dubvious towards it!

[[Di...]]

I'm always of the opinion that you use what works, and it doesn't always have to be the most expensive product. In fact, for many products like supplementary medications, cosmetics, sunscreens, food products etc, the less expensive ones are often proved to be better. Remembering “Caveat emptor” or “Let the buyer beware” is important in these circumstances. Just because something has a big price tag doesn't mean it's better.

[[...]]

I subscribe to consumerlabs.com to pick out quality products at a good price. It is an independent lab that evaluates these supplements we take and reports on their quality and accuracy. You need to pay for a subscription.

 

Dubjam

Sorry, but I have no interest in "adrenal fatigue". Good luck in your endeavors

 

Bart

[[Di...]]

For those interested, here is short article about "adrenal fatigue".  Whether you believe in it or not is an individual decision.

 

Just let it be said that anything that only the "alternative therapy" brigade advocates, without any actual conventional scientific acknowledgement or proof, is something that I am always suspicious of, because guess how the alternative therapy people make most of their money...... yep - inventing ailments so they can sell you lots of unnecessary and expensive pills and potions.

 

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/adrenal-fatigue/AN01583

 

[[Di...]]

I subscribe to consumerlabs.com to pick out quality products at a good price. It is an independent lab that evaluates these supplements we take and reports on their quality and accuracy. You need to pay for a subscription.

Bart

 

I'll have a look at that website, but I'm guessing it probably isn't relevant for products in Australia. I tend to buy products from well established companies with a good reputation, like Blackmores and Swisse.

[[...]]

For those interested, here is short article about "adrenal fatigue".  Whether you believe in it or not is an individual decision.

 

Just let it be said that anything that only the "alternative therapy" brigade advocates, without any actual conventional scientific acknowledgement or proof, is something that I am always suspicious of, because guess how the alternative therapy people make most of their money...... yep - inventing ailments so they can sell you lots of unnecessary and expensive pills and potions.

 

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/adrenal-fatigue/AN01583

 

Ya, While I don't have experience with adrenal disorders, working in cancer research has brought me into contact with a lot of quackery in that field and I think I have a pretty keen nose for health hucksterism in cancer. After seeing all the talk of adrenal fatigue here on BB I googled it several months ago and read several pro and con pieces on the subject. IMO this "disease" and treatment has the basic characteristics seen in medical quackery and hucksterism; limited publications in standard medical and scientific journals, no placebo controlled double blind studies which are the gold standard, dominated by the alternative medicine crowd, "treatments" that are usually sold out of the practitioners offices, saliva and hair testing used, and a vocal crowd of "true believers" who will never be persuaded otherwise. I took my wife to a well known alternative medicine practitioner in Southern California last week to see if he had anything to help for her Parkinson's disease. Even he mentioned that saliva tests were useless as the results were too variable and not reproducible. With its long list of symptoms that most people have at least from time to time you could probably make the "diagnosis" of adrenal fatigue on the majority of people you see and then start selling them tests and treatment substances. No doubt some practitioners will actually believe this diagnosis is legitimate, but  the way it's set up and the kinds of treatments offered makes it an ideal medical condition for scam artists and medical hucksters to get into.

 

Bart

[[sp...]]

On the one hand, I agree with bart - much of what I've read about adrenal fatigue sets off my scam-dar pretty hard. On the other hand, I think conventional allopathy's ideal of evidence based research often gets diluted with hubris that starts to look an awful lot like dogma. If something hasn't been reliably demonstrated or disproven in controlled studies, we've got no way of knowing if it's a real thing or not. The hormonal system is incredibly complicated. I feel that my HP axis is not functioning normally at all right now, and yet I'm not running to an endocrinologist because I cynically think that they will do blood/urine tests and then offer my synthetic hormones and drugs if any irregularities are found.

 

CFS is another good example of something that's got a lot of pseudoscience and quackery around it, but unlike adrenal fatigue, it's more or less impossible to dismiss. It's a real thing. Or is it things? Is it a virus that's never been sequenced? A genetic abnormality? A response to an environmental toxin? Or, perhaps a condition that arises when a known virus like EBV or HSV gets compounded by a genetic abnormality and a toxin? Maybe it's not even a single condition, but a state that arises when stuff gets broken in similar ways by viruses, environmental endocrine disruptors, etc...

 

We're changing things too fast these days, from both ends. We've got unprecedented ability to peek into the body and see what's going on, and we're also synthesizing new and totally untested biologically active substances and dumping them into the environment at a crazy rate. (If you want to scare yourself, spend some time googling flame retardant chemicals). Add to that, that totally new viruses and diseases cropping up out of the blue and changing the landscape overnight has been the status quo for life on earth in large populations since the beginning of life, and a lot of things start to look very murky, very fast.

 

These days, when someone tells me something like 'a given form of supplement/drug X affects me differently than Y', I tend not to be especially quick to judge. It doesn't mean that I believe the suggested mechanism for this, especially if that mechanism looks suspect - nor do I dismiss the power of the placebo effect. But it's not always the placebo effect, and the way things work in vivo can be very difficult to map out, and fundamentally different than the same things in vitro.

 

Just my .02. I do feel that my benzo experience has led me to have less faith in modern medicine and the degree to which we really understand how life works than I had before, by miles running. This doesn't make me especially quick to endorse alternative treatments (which by definition have even less scrutiny on them than conventional ones), but I'm usually at least open to hear the argument. There are plenty of snake oil salesmen with MD and PHD after their names, but I am even warier of people offering cures without any credentials at all.

[[...]]

My benzo experience has lowered my faith in conventional medicine also, but I have seen quackery time and time again in my field of cancer biology. There are certainly bad actors with MD and PhD after their names, but there are disproportionately more of these purveyors of baloney with other initials after their names some of which I've never heard of. One initial tip off I have when looking at a source is the author's name starts with Doctor and I can't find any scientific publications by them in Pubmed. That's a red flag in my book.

[[Wi...]]

OK I need some serious input on this.  I have experimented with Vit C to help with the morning issues.  I genuinely believe my especially difficult mornings are a result of cortisol surges.  I took Vit C for a few weeks (I take 500 mg at night) and it made a fairly significant difference. However, I began to experience more intense insomnia, so I took the Vit C out of the equation.

 

The insomnia improved when I removed the Vit C, but then the mornings returned to their original harshness.  Two days ago I bought a cleaner brand of Vit C (still 500 mg).  I took it last night.  The good news is that I think this is a more effective brand and when I woke up this morning, the morning uglies were almost non-existent.  HOWEVER, I also had the worst insomnia then I've had for a while.

 

I'm thinking of taking extended release much earlier in the day.  Barring that and if that doesn't work, I don't know what to do.  Has anyone else run into this?  Any suggestions are GREATLY appreciated.

[[Br...]]

OK I need some serious input on this.  I have experimented with Vit C to help with the morning issues. 

 

Hiya WWWI.  It's good to know you're getting some positive results from vitamin C.  By contrast I haven't had much joy. 

 

To be honest, I got lost amongst the posts in this thread and a similar one which started at about the same time.  There were various suggestions which didn't really seem to reach a consensus.  Someone somewhere said it might be necessary to take as much as 2 to 3g but even that dose doesn't do much for me. Nevertheless I still take it but more as a ritual act of faith than for any evident benefit.

 

If Vitamin C is being taken to deal with cortisol from a dysregulated HPA Axis then I seem to recall we should also be taking increased salt but no one mentions that.  (Yup, you can see I'm lost on this one!)

 

[[Wi...]]

OK I need some serious input on this.  I have experimented with Vit C to help with the morning issues. 

 

Hiya WWWI.  It's good to know you're getting some positive results from vitamin C.  By contrast I haven't had much joy. 

 

To be honest, I got lost amongst the posts in this thread and a similar one which started at about the same time.  There were various suggestions which didn't really seem to reach a consensus.  Someone somewhere said it might be necessary to take as much as 2 to 3g but even that dose doesn't do much for me. Nevertheless I still take it but more as a ritual act of faith than for any evident benefit.

 

If Vitamin C is being taken to deal with cortisol from a dysregulated HPA Axis then I seem to recall we should also be taking increased salt but no one mentions that.  (Yup, you can see I'm lost on this one!)

Braban,

 

Thank you for your response. What are you using Vit C to seek relief from?  From my experience, I'm finding that with insomnia at the very least, and possibly other symptoms are revved up some with it's use and yet it does seem to counter some of the morning cortisol surge.  So my take is that, for me anyway, it's use is very specific.  And sadly, as with most things, there are also consequences.  It saddens me, because for the morning relief, I'd happily submerge myself in Vit C.

 

Why increased salt? For me I notice a difference after 500 mg, so 2-3 g would be unnecessary.  But if you are getting no relief, could what you are dealing with perhaps not be cortisol related?  Is it mornings that cause you distress? If so, what is your morning experience?

 

WWWI

[[Br...]]

Braban,

 

Thank you for your response. What are you using Vit C to seek relief from?  From my experience, I'm finding that with insomnia at the very least, and possibly other symptoms are revved up some with it's use and yet it does seem to counter some of the morning cortisol surge.  So my take is that, for me anyway, it's use is very specific.  And sadly, as with most things, there are also consequences.  It saddens me, because for the morning relief, I'd happily submerge myself in Vit C.

 

Why increased salt? For me I notice a difference after 500 mg, so 2-3 g would be unnecessary.  But if you are getting no relief, could what you are dealing with perhaps not be cortisol related?  Is it mornings that cause you distress? If so, what is your morning experience?

 

Hiya WWWI.  I get terrible mornings.  Really terrible.  You recently wrote of "morning uglies" and I can relate to that.  One theory is that this could be due to raised cortisol in the morning, so I tried vitamin C to lower the cortisol.

 

Those people who are trying to treat adrenal fatigue (whether or not they have benzo problems) sometimes write that increased salt can help.  I'm aware that adrenal fatigue is probably an oversold concept, so I don't know for sure if all the advice on managing it is well-founded.

[[Du...]]

physical benzo problems are Adrenal Fatigue.

 

But the lowering cortisol, the best supplement is Seriphos, it has been an absolute god send for me, my morning anxiety/cortisol surges are  under control now thanks to Seriphos. Takes a while to work, but youll notice the difference from the first tab..I was on 12 tabs at the start throughout the day and night, now I am on 5.

 

It not only plugs the cortisol receptors, but it also reprogrammes the hypothylmus when to release cortisol, adrenaline etc. Its also an essential fatty acid, so helps protect and rebuild your brain. Its amazing.

 

But yes, salt water and salting food is also a massive help.

[[Wi...]]

Braban, I'm so sorry that Vit C had no impact on your morning stuff.  It's absolutely miserable no?  I too am hesitant about a diagnosis of "adrenal Fatigue".  The medical community recognized adrenal sufficiency in conditions like Addison's disease and congenital adrenal hyperplasia but don't seem to recognize "adrenal fatigue".  So one could surmise that there may be something to it. 

 

On the other hand, my experience with naturepaths and the like has not been positive and has included diagnosis that appeared to be being pulled out of their collective a$$es lol, but again that's simply my experience. I guess I just don't have much confidence in any of it. It seems to be dollars first and if you reap a benefit from their ministrations, that's secondary.  Additionally since most suppliments aren't regulated, and the challenges with supps and w/d, I'm hesitant about it all.

 

Dubjam - I'm not sure if you were the one who suggested Seriphos before but it prompted me to do some research and it appears to offer some real benefits.  However I did notice that it can be stimulating, or at least that's what's reported, so again, I'm hesitant.  Additionally since I believe my Graves' disease occurred in part because of the HPA/HPT dysregulation as a result of w/d, and I am desperate to maintain my remission.  Since no one knows why we get it and why it goes into remission, I'm scared to do anything that has even a chance to stir things up.  I stay away from iodine for that very same reason.  But I will put that in my list of possibilities and research further.  Thanks for posting that!

 

WWWI

[[Du...]]

Apparently it can be, I know around thirty people who have used Seriphos, and only one said, after prolonged use, it started to make him feel a little wired at night, so he adjsuted his dosage and time he took it and all was sorted. One tab will give you a gentle understanding.

 

What i really doubt it will do, is have uber paradoxical reactions that we know so well with things, its not going to amp you up like B vitamins or cause acute anxiety. But i think we are all hesitant, going through something as brutal as this and suffering reactions to everything makes even the thought of taking or eating something new like a bungee jump over a crocodile infested stream!

[[Wi...]]

Apparently it can be, I know around thirty people who have used Seriphos, and only one said, after prolonged use, it started to make him feel a little wired at night, so he adjsuted his dosage and time he took it and all was sorted. One tab will give you a gentle understanding.

 

What i really doubt it will do, is have uber paradoxical reactions that we know so well with things, its not going to amp you up like B vitamins or cause acute anxiety. But i think we are all hesitant, going through something as brutal as this and suffering reactions to everything makes even the thought of taking or eating something new like a bungee jump over a crocodile infested stream!

In looking it up I'm finding that it has a lot of positive associated with it.  My one challenge is that it's a soy derivative and while I don't know how that metabolizes and the soy impact, soy is one of the many, many, many things I have to avoid because of thyroid disease.  So I will research further! Thank you!

[[Du...]]

Yes its such a pain everything gets derived from Soy - Soy having the highest allergy rate, and terrible, as you say, for thyroid problems.

 

On the plus side, a friend of mine who has Mast Cell Disorder, who can barely eat anything other than lettuce without getting anaphaltic takes it and had no problems, but as we know, we are all different. Hope it works out for you as its been a godsend for me, I wouldt of been able to get out of acute without it

[[Wi...]]

I'm not ruling it out mind you lol....just approaching cautiously

[[Di...]]

 

But the lowering cortisol, the best supplement is Seriphos, it has been an absolute god send for me, my morning anxiety/cortisol surges are  under control now thanks to Seriphos. Takes a while to work, but youll notice the difference from the first tab..I was on 12 tabs at the start throughout the day and night, now I am on 5.

 

I know this will shock you, but I’m actually going to agree with you Dubjam. I don’t normally agree with you on many things (including adrenal fatigue), but I’m starting to agree with you on Seriphos.

 

I’ve been reading about Seriphos for a number of months now and I was tempted to try it before I started using Vitamin C, but I was really reluctant to buy yet another expensive supplement without any guarantee it was going to work.

 

The Vitamin C worked really well for me, and I still think it will help a lot of people, but I found that when I reduced the dose, because I didn’t want to keep taking a high dose of it, it really didn’t work as well, and I didn’t want to increase the dose again. So, after reading a lot of good Seriphos reviews on Amazon I decided to give it a go. The Amazon supplier wouldn’t ship to Australia for some reason, so I ended up getting mine from iherb.com. I’ve used them before and they are always very good suppliers.

 

I’ve only been using it for 3 nights, so it’s far too early to say that it’s a success, but I’m cautiously optimistic. For the last two weeks I’ve really struggled to sleep without taking an AD or doxylamine because I was having so much stress at work. That of course made my anxiety levels soar, and consequently made the problem even worse. However, the very first night I took Seriphos (Friday – 1 capsule with dinner and 1 before bed) I dropped off to sleep straight away at around 9.30pm. I woke at about 3.30am and couldn’t get back to sleep until around 5am, but then I slept really solidly until 8am, which is amazing for me.

 

Saturday night was similar, and last night (Sunday) I took my normal 2 capsules, but I still felt really wired by around 10.30pm. I tried to go to sleep, and was starting to get anxious again because I couldn’t, so I got up and took another capsule and bingo – I went straight to sleep. Obviously, if it is addressing my cortisol problem, it’s not going to be fixed overnight, and I may need to take extra occasionally, but I’m hoping that after a week or two I might be able to just take 1 capsule.

 

There’s a bit of information about Seriphos on moodcure.com/correcting_cortisol_levels.html, where she describes in more detail the doses that may help. I'm also very sceptical about all these "alternative therapy" people, because of past very bad experiences, but that doesn't mean that I'm against trying supplements. I'm just against the people who over-prescribe them just so they can make a lot of money out of you. Been there, done that, and it cost me thousands of dollars.

 

I’m definitely not promoting it, because it is a supplement and everyone has to make up their own mind about what they take. I also have no idea if it will continue to work, but maybe it’s worth trying. I’m hoping that my taper will only last for another 2-3 months, and after that my real healing can be completed and my cortisol levels will naturally regulate themselves.

 

[[Wi...]]

So this is my plan of action...

 

Just so it doesn't look like I'm ignoring DP, I responded to another similar post re: this already

 

I tried to find sublingual Vit C to take when I wake up in the dark of the night, instead of taking it before I go to sleep. I did find Naturemade Vitamen C melts and bought them, but discovered they contain wheat so that's out.  So I'm going to use the chewable (gluten free) I already have and have it available when I wakeup.  I figure chewable will metabolize faster than a regular pill and since I need fast action, I'm hoping it works. 

 

I'm keeping Seriphos  and (ah Christ I can't remember the name of the other one, but it's on the Valium taper thread so I can find it again lol) on a short list of alternative options.

 

Wishing myself much luck

 

ADDENDUM:  phosphatidylserine  is the second option.

[[Di...]]

Good luck WWWI. I hope your plan works for you.

[Guest [to...]]

 

But the lowering cortisol, the best supplement is Seriphos, it has been an absolute god send for me, my morning anxiety/cortisol surges are  under control now thanks to Seriphos. Takes a while to work, but youll notice the difference from the first tab..I was on 12 tabs at the start throughout the day and night, now I am on 5.

 

I know this will shock you, but I’m actually going to agree with you Dubjam. I don’t normally agree with you on many things (including adrenal fatigue), but I’m starting to agree with you on Seriphos.

 

I’ve been reading about Seriphos for a number of months now and I was tempted to try it before I started using Vitamin C, but I was really reluctant to buy yet another expensive supplement without any guarantee it was going to work.

 

The Vitamin C worked really well for me, and I still think it will help a lot of people, but I found that when I reduced the dose, because I didn’t want to keep taking a high dose of it, it really didn’t work as well, and I didn’t want to increase the dose again. So, after reading a lot of good Seriphos reviews on Amazon I decided to give it a go. The Amazon supplier wouldn’t ship to Australia for some reason, so I ended up getting mine from iherb.com. I’ve used them before and they are always very good suppliers.

 

I’ve only been using it for 3 nights, so it’s far too early to say that it’s a success, but I’m cautiously optimistic. For the last two weeks I’ve really struggled to sleep without taking an AD or doxylamine because I was having so much stress at work. That of course made my anxiety levels soar, and consequently made the problem even worse. However, the very first night I took Seriphos (Friday – 1 capsule with dinner and 1 before bed) I dropped off to sleep straight away at around 9.30pm. I woke at about 3.30am and couldn’t get back to sleep until around 5am, but then I slept really solidly until 8am, which is amazing for me.

 

Saturday night was similar, and last night (Sunday) I took my normal 2 capsules, but I still felt really wired by around 10.30pm. I tried to go to sleep, and was starting to get anxious again because I couldn’t, so I got up and took another capsule and bingo – I went straight to sleep. Obviously, if it is addressing my cortisol problem, it’s not going to be fixed overnight, and I may need to take extra occasionally, but I’m hoping that after a week or two I might be able to just take 1 capsule.

 

There’s a bit of information about Seriphos on moodcure.com/correcting_cortisol_levels.html, where she describes in more detail the doses that may help. I'm also very sceptical about all these "alternative therapy" people, because of past very bad experiences, but that doesn't mean that I'm against trying supplements. I'm just against the people who over-prescribe them just so they can make a lot of money out of you. Been there, done that, and it cost me thousands of dollars.

 

I’m definitely not promoting it, because it is a supplement and everyone has to make up their own mind about what they take. I also have no idea if it will continue to work, but maybe it’s worth trying. I’m hoping that my taper will only last for another 2-3 months, and after that my real healing can be completed and my cortisol levels will naturally regulate themselves.

 

 

I need to chime in her diam,  after your continuous public slamming of Natural Therapists.  You are self diagnosing and using supplements just like a Naturapath would try too.  I am a Natural Therapist that intuitively knows while in benzo w/d all of this playing around with supplements is as  dangerous as the use of other drugs and medications.  It is a fact the cortisol levels will regulate them selves when the body chooses.

[[Wi...]]

Good luck WWWI. I hope your plan works for you.

Thank you Ma'am

[[Di...]]

 

I need to chime in her diam,  after your continuous public slamming of Natural Therapists.  You are self diagnosing and using supplements just like a Naturapath would try too.  I am a Natural Therapist that intuitively knows while in benzo w/d all of this playing around with supplements is as  dangerous as the use of other drugs and medications.  It is a fact the cortisol levels will regulate them selves when the body chooses.

 

 

Frankly I don't care whether you are a Natural Therapist or not. Hopefully you are an honest one, but I'm not going to modify my opinions just because of your occupation.

 

I've seen my share of very dishonest and negligent naturopaths (I have no idea what the difference is between a "naturopath" and a "natural therapist" but whatever), so I will continue to "slam" them if I want to. I am quite within my rights to state my opinion, just like all these people on BB (and possibly you too) who are constantly slamming their medical practitioners for what they believe to be negligent treatment. 

 

I suffered very negligent treatment from the last naturopath I saw, who rather shockingly came very highly recommended to me, so I put aside my natural scepticism to see her. She charged me $3000 to supposedly fix my menopause symptoms, and all that actually happened was that I got addicted to valium because her methods were completely useless, expensive and actually downright toxic.

 

I'll repeat what I wrote above, in case you didn’t bother to read it....

 

I'm also very sceptical about all these "alternative therapy" people, because of past very bad experiences, but that doesn't mean that I'm against trying supplements. I'm just against the people who over-prescribe them just so they can make a lot of money out of you. Been there, done that, and it cost me thousands of dollars.

 

I take supplements. I’ve never said I didn’t, but I take and try supplements for specific things that I need (eg Vit D3 and Omega 3), and only if I have been shown some kind of evidence that it’s what may actually help.  I don’t agree with taking literally dozens of tablets a day just because some supposedly professional medical person tells you to. These people often just make a practice out of making a lot of promises, prescribing all sorts of pills and potions that you may or may not need, and then charging a fortune for them.

 

I'm sure my body will regulate my cortisol levels when its ready, but if I can take something to help that process and make my life a little more bearable at the same time, then I will, whether you think I should or not.

[[Wi...]]

towardthesun -

 

I am glad you chimed in because I have been known to view Natural Therapists with suspicion myself.  I've had a few experiences that led me to believe that of those I've seen, this was a money making proposition and if I actually reaped benefits, that was secondary.  I can't speak about all, just the ones I'm familiar with, including the one my mom has seen.  My problem with her is that she's placed my mom on some form of natural supplement that equates to a steroid and is not dissimilar to prednisone (I have to ask her the name).  My sister (the MD) is greatly concerned about the consequences of long term usage and questions the diagnosis. As often happens, her skin is thinning in places it shouldn't.  She is also unable to w/d from this steroid.  Perhaps she needs them, perhaps she never did.  Many of the "tests" were not regulated and the treatments unproven.

 

Additionally one of the diagnostic criteria for my "health status" was to view my nails.  He suggested that my nails indicated problems with my liver and proposed well over 500 dollars worth of additional testing. He only glanced quickly at my nails and perhaps if he'd actually been looking for something real he would have noticed I was wearing acrylic nails.

 

I went to him with a diagnosis of an autoimmune IB Disease.  That was my sole reason for seeing him.  He offered nothing for that, but all KINDS of things for stuff that was totally unrelated and questionable.

 

He seemed to be working from a script when he said "You may not feel any real benefit of this treatment for a while and it's possible that things will get worse before they get better..." .  The plan of action to follow was months of very expensive treatment, additional testing and suppliments purchased from him.

 

Perhaps I just found a lemon.  But to be candid, as little the confidence I have in the medical profession, this left me with even less confidence in alternative treatment.

 

I don't mean to disparage your profession, however, as you can see I have very strong feelings about this.  I really hope you are one of the good guys.

 

WWWI