Who says we heal as we go?

[[aw...]]

Bart: The Golden Post. Really quite a fine piece of writing. Kinda looks like a chapter summary to me, have you been moonlighting on the big U? Some of the posts running around loose here could be assembled into a better handbook/manual ("benzos for boneheads")  than anything I've seen. But then, I don't get out much.

Windows two days in a row!  :thumbsup:

 

Aweigh

[[...]]

Thanks man:

Thought I'd just do the down and dirty of the basics. I'm surprised I haven't been able to find a supplement that really makes a big difference and that I have to keep going even slower at these ridiculously low dosages. Seems this business is really mostly about time and going slow at whatever rate your body can manage. It's getting more boring all the time. I'm going to end up addicted to Ora-Plus.

Bart

[[aw...]]

Your welcome. It's in my ''benzobook". I wouldn't use it regularly, but for PRN when I've got those benzo blues, one 15X capsule of Kratom exract relieves most of my sx for about 5 h. I believe you've thumbs-downed this before to me, so if I'm inviting a nice, smelly case of Necrotizing Ulcerative Gingivostomatis by taking it, please let me know... But hey, it woiks.

 

Hasn't there been any work done on that subgroup of benzoids who just take a real long time to get off the drug? There must be something going on there; genetic, enzyme expression, transport mediated, somedamnthing...

 

For me, MgSO₄ is an effective drug for muscle pain and other sx; I think the trick is to get the dose right. I take 1/4 tsp./day = ~ 1.4 grams = ~ 180 mg of Mg. Might try a bit more. Do you partake? RDV is around 330 mg; a suprising # of people are Mg deficiant. I'll bet you know that.

 

Aweigh

[[ih...]]

Yes, great job Bart & sorry you are still so badly off after such a short duration.

 

I do attribute some progress to supps but it's completely unscientific & who knows how much placebo, (although like you, I also have a list of supps that I am confident have made no difference).

 

I also share your concern about the pseudo science health "professionals". It's particularly bad in the area of cancer treatment but we can see a fair bit of it occurring on this very board & don't get me started on the diet & nutrition side.

 

I don't know about kratom, as like an ever increasing list of things, it's illegal here but I would think that as an opioid it would have some cross tolerance factors with benzos but for occasional relief, it probably would not set you back greatly.

[[aw...]]

ihope:

It certainly is puzzling (not to mention unfair) how skewed up the distribution of sxs and recovery times and most everything else about benzos is. People are different, but not that different. It's benzos that are different. Make that weird.

 

To me, Kratom seems to have few drawbacks for occasional use. I've never been tempted to take more than the minimum effective dose, which says to me 'proceed with caution'. If I really liked it, as a friend of mine does, I'd run the other way. It's effects seems as much like a benzo as an opioid to me. It's structure is closer to an indole-based psychedelic than a nitrogen-bridged opioid, but it has no psychedelic properties. Another weird drug.

 

Do you know why it was made illegal in Australia, NZ, etc?

 

I just found an old Kratom thread under Alternative Therapies and Supplements. Off I go! And back I come.    I think I'll research this thing a little more. Might be contraindicated for benzo fools.

 

Aweigh

 

 

[[Ma...]]

It reads Bart, it reads. Hi Aweigh, Hey Hope!!

 

>>Here's something I have an uneducated opinion on I'd love some more informed opinions about:

 

>>I think at a certain point some of us, many of us are in tolerance. Bart, from what you've described about what's going on it the brain's attempt to seek balance, the excess glutamine alone might be enough to overpower one or two mgs (I think in Valium terms). I know for myself in the past, before the drug turned toxic so during previous withdrawals, I would go into tolerance at a lower dose which, as I had no understanding as to what was happening and neither did anyone around me, would precipitate re instatement. I've been on and off this drug more times than *insert adorable folksy colloquialism, it's early and I'm fresh out*. Taking forever towards the end might be confusing withdrawal symptoms, healing and tolerance with only withdrawal, so of course it gets harder and harder the slower and lower you go. I've found it easier actually, if you've been able to sustain a nice paced comfortable taper, to expect to be symptom free is unrealistic, it's best at the very end to just proceed. Anyway, that's my new question for the group.

This is fun.

Nice to meet you guys.

m

[[Bi...]]

Thank you so much Bart, Bird. I am one of those people for whom the drug has turned toxic, only lowering the dose is allowing me any comfort. The symptoms of a more rapid, though not over rapid I don't think, straight to the book Ahston taper are still preferable to the misery of what was the experience of being on a higher dosage.

 

Are you in the sciences Bart? You have a certain ease with the language. It makes perfect sense. So yes of course, the degree to which the body adjusts is dose and time (length of use) related, though for many, very little adjustment is made by the brain and they suffer so few symptoms getting off. That's strange isn't it, that we are in the minority to experience such drastic symptoms when the impact of the brain is so great. We must have some sort of predisposition, well, clearly we do. I wonder what it is... they could learn a lot about anxiety from we the folk with difficulty coming off, the residual impact on the brain being essentially leaving us in a state of hyper arousal, right? I never suffered from anxiety prior to benzos, but I'm guessing I do now, at least for a time.

 

So again, thanks, and please, keep it coming, I'm learning a lot!

m

 

Hi Marina,

From what I have read people that have high stress, are high strung and have panic disorders were born with a GABA receptors deficiency of some kind mostly likely NOT ENOUGH RECEPTORS  so the few receptors we do have get nailed fast. My Benzo Dr. told me that one of our parents was probably a real WORRY WORT am we got it from their genes  (thanks DAD!) This makes sense to me for two reasons.  Number one when I started taking benzo's they had little effectiveness on me and I had to take higher doses within the first few days.  Then when I hit the right dose I stayed on it for 5 years without problems until I ran out and I never hit tolerance. Now this is where it gets weird, I stopped taking them and did not go into hard withdrawal for several weeks afterwords!  What does that mean about me?  We are all so different.

 

 

 

[[Bi...]]

Thanks man:

Thought I'd just do the down and dirty of the basics. I'm surprised I haven't been able to find a supplement that really makes a big difference and that I have to keep going even slower at these ridiculously low dosages. Seems this business is really mostly about time and going slow at whatever rate your body can manage. It's getting more boring all the time. I'm going to end up addicted to Ora-Plus.

Bart

 

 

Hi bart,

I am pretty sure that longer holds near the bottom are normal. Classically when nearing the 2mg level things get tougher so this means longer holds while the body adjusts. I guess we are dealing with the vast majority of sticky receptors at that point in our taper.  I think all that are left by that point are the inverted receptors and they could take a year to slowly pop back into shape.  Maybe at this level go even slower I am thinking.

[[Ma...]]

You missed my question Bird... I'm asking about precisely this and offering an alternative idea.... what do you think?

m

[[Ma...]]

Ok this post is a little like a drunken man walking but I'm gonna thrown in my waver.

 

Saw pdoc this morning.  I asked him about gaba receptors.  He said that gaba receptors are regenerating all the time, new ones are being formed.

 

So, one explanation for why a slow taper helps is this:  The gaba receptors I had when I was on 6 mgs K 10 months ago are gone.  New ones are there now, ones that are not familiar with 6 mgs K, and not expecting 6 mgs K.  The new ones are used to the lower dose.

 

This could be one explanation for why we can improve on a slow taper.  Does this help?

[[Ma...]]

Sure, why not 

m

[[Bi...]]

I don't remember where I heard this but a biologist said that every 6 months every cell in our body changed out.  That means every 6 months every cell in your body has regenerated and your basically a new person.  So 6 months after jumping you should be OK.

[[ja...]]

Interesting Mairin. I would like to add my 2 cents if that's ok. I c/o from 2 mg Xanax and was in horrible I/W. I did a 9 week c/o to 40 mg Valium. From 40 to 30 mg was no picnic. And from 30 to 16 mg I was starting to notice slight changes. Im at 12 mg as of today. I truly believe I'm healing as I go. I can feel it.

 

This of course is my personal experience. I also think I would rather believe I'm healing as I go, then not. And it is a fact that how you think can reflect in how you feel. Lastly I think its sad when something is talked about and there is always someone who just has to be rude. Shame on you.

 

Thankyou Marina for the good topic

Love Jackie

[[Ma...]]

Yeah Bird, I do think that explanation is a little simplistic.  But there may be some sense to it.  Something is going on that makes our bodies adjust to lower amounts.  Some mechanism is happening that makes people get better with time off the benzos too.

 

I know its got to be more complex than just regeneration of cells in our body.  Perhaps its not every 6 months for everyone.  That could account for different rates of healing.

 

But still, since people continue to have symptoms after 6 months, there must be something else at work.  Maybe drugs affect the normal regeneration of cells.

 

Maybe the regeneration of every cell in the body in 6 months is in a totally healthy, young individual.  Perhaps sickness, inadequate nutrition,  age, lack of exercise and other factors such as environmental pollutants cause the body to not regenerate as well as it could otherwise.  Also lack of sleep, which is a problem for many, as a lot of repair takes place in the body when asleep.

 

Age is a pretty obvious factor.  The older we get, the harder it is to recover from things.  Like drinking for example.  How many of us could drink a pretty good bit and still get up for work and carry on when we were twenty.    But I know as I got older, drinking and hangovers and recovery time got worse and longer.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

 

[[Ma...]]

If all your cells regenerated after only 6 months, then healing from all accidents etc. would take that long.... I don't see how that can work... I thought it was every 7 years.

 

The issue of tolerance again, I'd like to address it: some people here have adopted a faster taper and are feeling better as a result, it's still not fast by Ashton standards but not a turtle taper. I'm pretty convinced that the lower you go, the more quickly tolerance is achieved, but.... like say, I'm going quickly, yesterday I had terrible joint pain throughout my body, difficult to even walk, yesterday I cut, today the pain is gone, but that's how it is with me, when I cut, I feel better and a number of people are noticing that, I'm noticing. It's a contradiction.

 

Mu pleasure Jackie 

m

[[li...]]

I know some healing was taking place as I tapered.

 

Once I switched to titration and listened to my body, the symptoms became more manageable.

 

The lower levels were easier because my body had adjusted during the taper.

 

I tapered to the last drop .... and it helped.

 

Lizie

[[Ma...]]

Congratualtions on being off lizie

[[li...]]

Thanks, Mairin!

 

Lizie 

[[...]]

Hi Lizie

That looks like a nice slow taper at the end. What if any symptoms are you having  now?

Bart

[[li...]]

Minimal symptoms, if any, at present, Bart.

 

I did have benzo flu on the 4th day probably because of the half-life, but then it passed.

 

I don't want to jinx myself .... but I do believe listening to my body, titrating, and patiently reducing it to the last drop,

 

has made the jump easier. 

 

Even if symptoms do start to develop, I can tell a lot of healing has occurred along the way.

 

Lizie

[[...]]

Hi Lizie

That's exactly what I expected to hear from you. I think most people get that "gotta get to the finish line" mentality at the end of their tapers and bring on unnecessary problems for some period of time. High jumpers can break legs too. You went down to an uncommonly low dose at the end and now are having an easy time of it. Congratulations!

[[Ma...]]

Bart. please go back to my question to you vis a vis tolerance at the end (low doses).

 

Please?

m

[[Di...]]

For the rest of us, IMO most people taper way too fast, particularly at the lower doses. It is possible through trial and error to find that rate of taper which corresponds closely to our individual healing rate allowing the taper to progress with a low level of symptoms. This is what I am doing. You can get into the weeds with receptor subtypes, all the various supplements, etc. but this is the essence of the problem and the secret to having a relatively easy taper. Exercise in particular has a number of favorable effects on the healing process. I should get around to writing about this some time. I believe it has helped me a lot and their is real live science behind exercise to back up the claims.

Bart

 

 

Oh Bart - I always love reading your posts, even though I must admit the majority of what you write goes totally over my head....lol...

 

However, I love what you say about some people tapering too fast. I couldn't agree more, and we have had this discussion on another infamous thread. I wish more people would take notice of those of us to are living examples of the benefits of the slower taper. Like you, I believe I have stumbled on to (currently) the perfect taper rate for me, and I am steadily decreasing my dose, with practically no side effects.

 

I also believe that because my body has been freed from dealing with those horrible side effects, it is free to deal with the healing process during my withdrawal. That's my opinion anyway, and I'm sticking to it...lol...

 

Regarding supplements that might help, I’ve been using one this week that I believe is really helping me at the moment. I don’t know if it’s available in other countries, but it’s a product made by Swisse called “Sleep”. It contains magnesium orotate plus some other things like hops, valerian, licorice etc. Since I started using it last Tuesday my sleep has been amazing. I’m falling asleep quickly and getting at least a solid 6 hours every night.

 

[[Di...]]

If all your cells regenerated after only 6 months, then healing from all accidents etc. would take that long.... I don't see how that can work... I thought it was every 7 years.

 

The issue of tolerance again, I'd like to address it: some people here have adopted a faster taper and are feeling better as a result, it's still not fast by Ashton standards but not a turtle taper. I'm pretty convinced that the lower you go, the more quickly tolerance is achieved, but.... like say, I'm going quickly, yesterday I had terrible joint pain throughout my body, difficult to even walk, yesterday I cut, today the pain is gone, but that's how it is with me, when I cut, I feel better and a number of people are noticing that, I'm noticing. It's a contradiction.

 

Mu pleasure Jackie 

m

 

I remember seeing something on TV a while back (can't remember what show it was) where it was explained that basically no part of our bodies is any older than 7 years, because everything is regenerated within the time frame (some parts obviously quicker than others).

 

Here's a very interesting link I just found. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1219995/Believe-lungs-weeks-old--taste-buds-just-days-So-old-rest-body.html

 

So this would account for why some things heal very quickly, while other things take longer to heal. Also it makes total sense that most people should be healed from benzos use in the short term, rather than the long term.

[[li...]]

Hi Lizie

That's exactly what I expected to hear from you. I think most people get that "gotta get to the finish line" mentality at the end of their tapers and bring on unnecessary problems for some period of time. High jumpers can break legs too. You went down to an uncommonly low dose at the end and now are having an easy time of it. Congratulations!

 

Thank you, Bart!  I appreciate your support.