Who says we heal as we go?

[[Br...]]

If all your cells regenerated after only 6 months, then healing from all accidents etc. would take that long.... I don't see how that can work... I thought it was every 7 years.

 

The issue of tolerance again, I'd like to address it: some people here have adopted a faster taper and are feeling better as a result, it's still not fast by Ashton standards but not a turtle taper. I'm pretty convinced that the lower you go, the more quickly tolerance is achieved, but.... like say, I'm going quickly, yesterday I had terrible joint pain throughout my body, difficult to even walk, yesterday I cut, today the pain is gone, but that's how it is with me, when I cut, I feel better and a number of people are noticing that, I'm noticing. It's a contradiction.

 

Hello Marina.  I'm a bit confused by your post.  You mention "tolerance" but I wonder if you mean "withdrawal symptoms". 

 

I think withdrawal problems are more closely related to dependency rather than tolerance.

 

Braban

 

 

PS: I hope I've written that clearly!

 

 

[[...]]

I think it very clearly is dependent on an individual's circumstances. When I came here I got a lot of advice to taper slowly (or more slowly than I was doing - even from Marina!) but I found I could handle fast cuts. Really fast cuts. I admit, I am one of the lucky ones - I only went through light sxs which have gone now. I believe that if I had taken a slow taper, the jump would have been more difficult because I would have actually increased my dependency because I'd have added an extra 4-6 months or so to the amount of time this stuff had a hold over me. Because I came in relatively young and hadn't been on it for all that long, a rapid taper worked. I accidentally jumped by forgetting to take my dose one day and not noticing any sxs as a consequence, so I just stopped taking it and went on from there.

 

I realise that many people are not in this boat. But a rapid taper can be suitable for some.

 

I'm well aware that some people here have a long and complicated history with the benzo drug family, and from what I've read, they are most likely going to suffer any which way they come off of it, unfortunately. And in this circumstance, perhaps a fast taper may be intolerable, and a slow taper would be advisable.

 

Still, I think Marina's doing the right thing in putting the idea out there - maybe you can speed up your taper, and maybe you can deal with the sxs? Maybe you can't. If you can, why not? And isn't it worth finding out if you can or can't? If I had followed the slow taper method, I'd still be taking bromazepam and would still have several months left of taper in front of me. Instead I've kicked this rubbish. Please don't think I'm saying this will work for you. But it worked for me, and it might work for you.

[[Br...]]

For me, MgSO4 is an effective drug for muscle pain and other sx; I think the trick is to get the dose right. I take 1/4 tsp./day = ~ 1.4 grams = ~ 180 mg of Mg. Might try a bit more. Do you partake? RDV is around 330 mg; a suprising # of people are Mg deficiant. I'll bet you know that.

 

 

Hello Aweigh. I recently started experimenting with magnesium glycinate. It's far too early to know if it will help consistently but so far the results have been promising.  In fact I was very surprised by how good its effect has been.

 

However maybe it addresses a need in my metabolism which perhaps not everyone else shares.

[[os...]]

If all your cells regenerated after only 6 months, then healing from all accidents etc. would take that long.... I don't see how that can work... I thought it was every 7 years.

 

The issue of tolerance again, I'd like to address it: some people here have adopted a faster taper and are feeling better as a result, it's still not fast by Ashton standards but not a turtle taper. I'm pretty convinced that the lower you go, the more quickly tolerance is achieved, but.... like say, I'm going quickly, yesterday I had terrible joint pain throughout my body, difficult to even walk, yesterday I cut, today the pain is gone, but that's how it is with me, when I cut, I feel better and a number of people are noticing that, I'm noticing. It's a contradiction.

 

Mu pleasure Jackie 

m

 

In response to this i would like to add a few things also...

 

I have been microtapering from day one of my taper, i have been at this 20 months now, almost to the day... i have observed others along this journey and it would appear that those that taper the slowest do seem to fare well but then there are a few that struggle.

 

I have noticed that there seems to be a link with those that have a hard slow taper if there is a CT in their History and/or previous rapid tapers that failed, i see this quite a lot... and also, it is worth bearing in mind that many people actually did not start microtapering until the last few mgs... so, in effect, much healing is still having to take place from the bigger cuts previous.

 

I am starting to feel big changes as i approach 3 mgs Valium equivalent, i feel like i am waking up now... yet i have heard many say that it gets better from 2 mg of Valium and below, many seem to be more functional at these lower doses... yet everyone is different.

 

I have vowed to go as slow as is needed to go from 3 mg to 2 mg and i am going to observe my own symptoms and re-evaluate at the end of that period, yet it could take me some time to get there, possibly even a year as i am tapering VERY slowly and using holds also.

 

The reason i use holds is because my cuts seem to accumulate, i daily tapered and adjusted my cuts for 7 months straight without a single hold, yet when i started to feel bad, i pushed on, big mistake, now i use holds often to allow for adjustment so that i (hopefully) avoid getting slammed again... this seems far trickier at this dose but with patience and persistence and a lot of holds, i am hoping to gradually lose this next mg in the *hope* that things do actually become easier, after all, i will have been tapering for over 30 months by the time i get there...

 

I do find that when i am cutting i feel OK to well, yet when i hold is when i feel some discomfort initially, yet i am reluctant to just keep on cutting and than end up getting slammed harder than is necessary, i look at some other members and see that they are also doing well at or below 3 mg and i am encouraged by that, so i do the same...

 

I have often wished i could cut .25 every time with a longish hold and be done, i think many wish the same but for some of us that just seems impossible, yet if i reach problems after 2 mg of Valium (and if i have had great difficulty getting there), i may just conclude that the last couple of mgs actually need to be tapered faster, i would only slow taper fot much longer if i was experiencing increasing wellness... when i think back over the past year, i am definitely better now that i was back then, so this would suggest to me that i am in fact healing... whether tolerance screws things up later remains to be seen but we are all in tolerance to a degree, in MY opinion it is better to balance the two by alternating between cutting and holding, it is an ongoing trial and error thing but it sure seems to be less taxing than bigger cuts which can and do bring on more severe symptoms (they would for me at least).

 

From 2 mg and below, i would not rule out making bigger cuts but chances are, i will remain with this method, the brain takes a long time to adapt and healing rates vary so much...

 

I admit my taper is very slow but i do know, for a fact, i have healed a LOT in this time,even if i am symptomatic later, i still know i have healed a great deal... and i have seen others literally step off but i admit, there are not many that have done this slowly from start to finish, my taper will possibly total 5 years... is that a mistake? I honestly cannot answer that, i don´t think i could have got to here had i tried any other way if i am honest, we do not taper slowly because it´s fun... we taper slowly because we ultimately want off this safely, far too many taper faster and then are hanging by the skin of their teeth post taper to hold on and not reinstate and this can last a long time, so getting free sooner is not always the best way... many often say they wish they had gone slower, it is not just what happens at zero, it is how we get there that determines the landing... and i have seen a few smooth landings and that seems to be good enough for me.

 

Lastly, i think we all have predetermined healing times and when we taper above that we feel symptomatic... if a taper lasts 3 years but the sufferer´s healing time frame is 4 years, then there will be another year to fully recover once off, that is how i see it... like it or not, some of us are slow healers and rushing off this drug merely sets many up for misery and possible reinstatement, i do not fancy doing this a second time, it has to be this time for me and i really do not fancy losing the plot by being impatient now... if i was not healing, i would not have the energy i do now and i would still be in a very thick fog and i would probably still be wearing sunglasses to the bathroom... i am not... healing has taken place and i believe it will continue... i think it is quite possible that the reason why so many have problems is because they are going too fast... in my opinion, most tapers are not slow enough... a year rarely cuts it for a long term user... 2 years may be better but in some cases, yes, i think the taper may need to be even longer... yet even i would finish these last couple of mgs if things are not drastically better a year from now, they should be because a) i will have been at this 30 months and b) I have felt healing since last year anyways, so why should that stop now?

 

I could rush the last of this but if i were to do that now, i think i would be looking at a potential 3 years to get fully better, quite simply because i will have upset my CNS and given it a shock... therefore i would not really be gaining anything, i would just be off the drug but very symptomatic with little quality of life... of course it *could* pay off but it seems that anyone that rushes the end still has to serve the time... and some can´t tolerate it... i do not see many that have rushed off and are OK within a few weeks... we have to undo our brains in order to put them back together again... kick out all the drug in one go and that is a lot to put back together again... result? Long recovery... so a long taper, so far, is my preferred route... even if i hate it, i know the alternative could be worse... that said, i do believe that it may be possible to clean up the last 2 mgs, yet that is down to the individual to decide... it may well be counter productive but my thoughts are that slow probably is still a better way... i will let you know when i get there if my preferred method changes... i rule nothing out completely... i know if i make a bigger cut i lose the plot... it´s not just fear alone... if we get to zero prematurely, we still have a way to go and who really has tapered slow enough here? Not many... it takes a lot of patience to do so.

 

At 2 mg, if i am climbing the walls or having bad sxs, i will then maybe, just maybe take the plunge, i will have lost the majority of my dose by that stage anyways and done it very gradually and over a long time, i somehow doubt i will have to heal from anything other than what´s left... but i would imagine it would not be an easy landing... or even easy getting to zero but at the end of the day, if we listen to our bodies, we somehow have an instinct for what we can and cannot do... i would try one .25 cut and if that back-fired badly, i would reinstate to the previous dose... i only say that because i would not want to drag the last 2 mgs out purely out of fear... it does disturb me how some are on the really low end and are still in as much fear as higher mgs... maybe that fear is not necessary past a certain point? Maybe we fear the shoe dropping that has long since gone? I just do not know, yet i hope i have some idea a year from now... it would help if some that recently tapered real slow posted here, i can think of 2 members that tapered to zero and really took their time, yet both just disappeared, not to even post a thing, that depresses me more than anything, i was so hoping to see how they were doing... there simply are not enough people to back up slow tapers... i would feel encouraged to see more but why would Ashton advocate long tapers for long term users? She cited that a taper length was of no significance, to taper for 18 months or more is not necessarily a bad thing... and she of all people should know.

 

Oscar

[[...]]

Braban

I've been taking the glycinate form too. It's hard to say which is better, but it could be this one. I feel like I do get some benefit from the other brands. I currently use Doctor's Best as well as CALM

Bart

[[os...]]

Braban

I've been taking the glycinate form too. It's hard to say which is better, but it could be this one. I feel like I do get some benefit from the other brands. I currently use Doctor's Best as well as CALM

Bart

 

Hi Bart,

 

Would you be able to say you are more symptom free at this point? Do you have more confidence that this is almost over? I know some have had fear right up to the last drop but it can be over by zero... i really do not think there would be much repercussion from that point... it sure as heck should be a smooth landing... even if it was rocky i doubt it would last for more than a few days... i would hope so anyways... you have put a lot of effort in, i hope YOU don´t disappear once off like some others have. 

 

Oscar

[[Ma...]]

Tolerance is not remedied by holding, in response to Braban and to clarify the idea I was hoping to put forward, oh well, not to happen I suppose, that's ok.

m

[[...]]

 

 

Hi Bart,

 

Would you be able to say you are more symptom free at this point? Do you have more confidence that this is almost over? I know some have had fear right up to the last drop but it can be over by zero... i really do not think there would be much repercussion from that point... it sure as heck should be a smooth landing... even if it was rocky i doubt it would last for more than a few days... i would hope so anyways... you have put a lot of effort in, i hope YOU don´t disappear once off like some others have. 

 

Oscar

 

Hi Oscar

Nice to hear from you. The short answer is yes; my symptoms have generally gone down over time. Haven't had any anxiety in several months now, but tinnitus started in its place. I still get some cog fog and d/r at work sometimes when I'm hopping and popping  but none at other times. I would say to people that symptoms change during a taper but the overall severity lessens. I've had the usual waxing and waning as well. I'm more symptomatic when I'm under slept, have some other ailment such as a cold going on, sugary foods and probably some other factors I haven't recognized. I like Parker's analogy of a building being repaired. In general, we're pretty much all going to heal in time. The very slow taper seems to work best for me. I probably am also still healing from when I went too fast earlier in my taper. You may be able to speed up at some later point. Who knows? I've been tapering at .0025 cuts per day and have several days off work coming up so I'm going to try .005 cuts. If it doesn't work, so what; I'll just do a little one time updose to fix the problem and go back to .0025. This is even more a matter of trial and error and less predictable at the low doses.

Bart

[[aw...]]

Braban

I've been taking the glycinate form too. It's hard to say which is better, but it could be this one. I feel like I do get some benefit from the other brands. I currently use Doctor's Best as well as CALM

Bart

Bart: What is the advantage of the glycinate and what equivalent dose of Mg do you take per day?

 

Aweigh

[[ih...]]

Glycine is the smallest amino acid & as such is more bioavailable than other molecules. By attaching the magnesium molecule to a glycine, the magnesium is more readily absorbed by cells.

[[Ma...]]

Sorry Oscar, when I posted, I swear I didn't see your post, it didn't seem to be there, I have no idea how that happened. You addressed that quite a lot, sorry, ghosts in the machine.

m

[[tu...]]

I agree completely. My doctor, one of the foremost experts in NYC on benzo detox, agrees that healing does in fact take place as one goes along. People heal at different speeds depending on individual biochemical differences. No two people are exactly alike. This comes from an medical expert, who uses Ashton, and has years of clinical and research experience. I am paraphrasing his summation to me. The brain is working in its own way to create regulation of all systems. Millions of years of systemic adaptive evolution provides us with self healing commands, throughout our bodies. The brain "remaps" neurons around damaged areas of the brain in stroke victims for instance, and other areas of the brain pick up some of the working load.

[[...]]

Braban

I've been taking the glycinate form too. It's hard to say which is better, but it could be this one. I feel like I do get some benefit from the other brands. I currently use Doctor's Best as well as CALM

Bart

Bart: What is the advantage of the glycinate and what equivalent dose of Mg do you take per day?

 

Aweigh

Hey Aweigh

Mg is a metal and will not absorb by itself so you have to link it to something. With a couple of caveats, there is little difference among the myriad of Mg forms. The oxide has the poorest absorption and bioavailability and the citrate irritates the bowel the most causing diarrhea which can be a good thing for some people. There is no inherent difference between the chelate and salt forms. I suspect people claiming differences are often experiencing variation among quality of manufacturing. As you know, the industry is essentially unregulated as to labeling, contaminants and product quality. You could literally put out a product that contains none of the ingredients listed on the label and you would not be prosecuted so long as your product does not cause harm. I subscribe to a well known organization, ConsumerLab, which independently tests these products and publishes their results. It is a real eye opener to read some of their reports. I pick brands that have passed their muster. Also, benzo withdrawal symptoms wax and wane, so the experience of one individual means little (except to that individual). I take 400-700mg of elemental Mg per day depending on my symptoms. I feel like I get some relief of symptoms, particularly anything muscular.

How's the taper going?

Bart

 

[[aw...]]

Thanks, Bart. That's just what I wanted to know. I could never figure out why protein-linked Mg would be any different in the body than the ionic form, other than maybe less laxative effect. They sure charge a mint for it  I kinda like MgSO₄^.7H₂O. It's natural, dude, they dig it right out of the ground like salt 

 

We had a study in our lab in which the researcher purchased 6 different commercially available St. John's Wort preparations from health food stores. They were prepped and analyzed by GC/MS. 3 of the 6 contained none of the active compound. Of the other 3,  only one contained the amount listed on the label. Good ol' FDA!

 

So I've been taking 5 g/day = 500 mg elemental Mg. That's probably about right; too much Mg can build up and trigger PVCs, to which I am susceptible. I did notice the difference as soon as I started supplementing Mg; < muscle pain.

 

Know much about DMSO?

 

Aweigh

[[...]]

DMSO?

I used to use it for sore shoulders back when I was heavy into bodybuilding. I don't remember a big benefit. I suppose you could try it for muscular symptoms and see what happens. Theoretically, it should do something

[[aw...]]

The reason I ask is that some people get good results with it, but there are gray-market issues because the solvent grade (99%) is often misrepresented as the pharmaceutical grade (99.9%), especially online (you're looking at a sucker  ). That 0.9% is all the stinky Di-Me-Sulfides that you don't want on your skin. It's all legal, just another scam. I thought perhaps you knew of a source for the "good stuff". 

 

Aweigh

 

PS: Found a supplier. Should have been obvious; the real stuff costs 5X as much  :'(

PPS: The taper? Funny, how it slips your mind...I'm back on track at 0.0125 mg/d after a nice hold. No rasty sx so far xx. I've made a couple of changes that may be improvements [solvent handling]. You know what? Tapering is like meditation...BORING...

 

[[Br...]]

I'm back on track at 0.0125 mg/d after a nice hold. No rasty sx so far xx.

 

I've made a couple of changes that may be improvements [solvent handling]. You know what? Tapering is like meditation...BORING...

 

Hi Aweigh.  I only wish my taper was boring.....

 

After a nice long hold throughout January I figured I'd built up enough "reserve" capacity to let me restart daily cutting at an equivalent of 20% per month. 

 

After 10 days I started feeling a bit rough, and I figured maybe the change to a new method which I had started using caused a step change downwards in my dose.  So I eased my daily cuts to be equivalent to 15% per month.  Another ten days later and I got REALLY AND TRULY unwell.  Ugh! Ugh!  Ugh!  I had to hold. 

 

A boring taper without getting slammed would be a sweet luxury for me!

[[aw...]]

Sorry to hear that. It looks like the "reserve capacity" hippopotathuss isn't holding water. Be patient, reef sail, and you'll catch a nifty wind to blow you out of those doldrums.

 

Aweigh   

[[Br...]]

Sorry to hear that. It looks like the "reserve capacity" hippopotathuss isn't holding water.

 

Hello Aweigh and Bart.  One reason why my long hold may not have been as effective as I had hoped is that I've discovered that I am getting interdose withdrawal from taking diazepam 3 time a day.

 

If I had read someone write that 3 daily doses of diazepam were not enough, I'd think the author was plain nuts and fooling themself or observing some placebo effect.  However after very many observations I have eventually noticed that I consistently improve after about an hour of taking the diazepam.  Looking back over the many months of my taper I now notice how I have often been noticeably dysfunctional in the hour or two before my next dose.

 

I've carefully double and triple checked my response.  I'm amazed I hadn't spotted this earlier.  Jeeze .... this has taken me so long to work out!  <Hits head with hand!>

 

So I will now go on to 4 doses a day.

 

I knew it was crap that diazepam's half-life being 36 to 200 hours but I guessed the duration of action was a minimum of 8 to 10 hours.  However Diazepam's duration of action for me is closer to 6 hours than I ever appreciated!

 

[[...]]

Hi All, I noticed this tread and though I'm a little late in replying I would like to say I agree with turtle222. Our brains do have the ability to heal themselves. It's called Neuroplasticity. There has been amazing new information in this area just within the last 2 years or so. A prominent Neurologist by the name of Dr Rudolph E. Tanzi (Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School) has done a huge amount of research in this area taking studies form all over the world and looking for commonalities. Bottom line, the brain has an amazing ability to repair and heal itself. Granted it does take longer than let's say when you cut yourself but in some instances it is quite fast. For example, when you remove fluid from the brain of patients with Hydrocephalus many times their cognitive functions typically begin to improve within an hour or two.

There is way, way, way more suggestive evidence now that the brain will begin the process of healing itself during the tapper process. Obviously a direct benzo study is is needed to confirm this definitively but to say NOW that the brain will NOT begin to repair itself until ALL the benzo is out of our system is no longer reliably accurate.

 

Cheers,

Adie

[[...]]

Sorry to hear that. It looks like the "reserve capacity" hippopotathuss isn't holding water.

 

Hello Aweigh and Bart.  One reason why my long hold may not have been as effective as I had hoped is that I've discovered that I am getting interdose withdrawal from taking diazepam 3 time a day.

 

If I had read someone write that 3 daily doses of diazepam were not enough, I'd think the author was plain nuts and fooling themself or observing some placebo effect.  However after very many observations I have eventually noticed that I consistently improve after about an hour of taking the diazepam.  Looking back over the many months of my taper I now notice how I have often been noticeably dysfunctional in the hour or two before my next dose.

 

I've carefully double and triple checked my response.  I'm amazed I hadn't spotted this earlier.  Jeeze .... this has taken me so long to work out!  <Hits head with hand!>

 

So I will now go on to 4 doses a day.

 

I knew it was crap that diazepam's half-life being 36 to 200 hours but I guessed the duration of action was a minimum of 8 to 10 hours.  However Diazepam's duration of action for me is closer to 6 hours than I ever appreciated!

 

Braban

Sounds like a good plan. Glad you figured it out. From what I read the duration of action for Valium is 6-12 hours for most people and occasionally as long as 24 hours. You must be on the left side of the bell curve. Performance studies show a peak effect in around 2 hours with most of that gone in just 3-4 hours. It's hard to be very quantitative with duration  of action. Half life is much easier to measure even though it is of much less import.

Bart

[[Bi...]]

The duration is very low actually

 

 

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&sa=N&tbm=isch&tbnid=IPkL_Fsek_3i5M:&imgrefurl=http://www.msevans.com/epilepsy/statusepi.html&docid=l7ZPXA8IR5CRcM&imgurl=http://www.msevans.com/epilepsy/diazepamplasmaconcentration.gif&w=384&h=343&ei=wQM0UeqxBtLOyAH-6YHAAQ&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:21,s:0,i:155&iact=rc&dur=2076&sig=101544971028739918714&page=2&tbnh=206&tbnw=230&start=18&ndsp=23&tx=126&ty=114&biw=1164&bih=769

[[ih...]]

Hi Bird, not sure that this graph includes valium metabolites which are likely responsible for some of the drug's effects.

[[...]]

That's plasma concentration. The drop will reflect tissue distribution and accumulation. Duration of action is the length of time a drug shows clinical effect. As you said, it is quite low and when you measure some specific performance effect it appears even lower. It is a more practical but harder to measure quantity than half life. It will vary somewhat by the type of performance you are measuring, i.e: reaction time, perceived anxiety, drowsiness, etc. Braban can easily have interdose withdrawal symptoms dosing every 8 hours. Plasma half life is way over-rated in the benzo withdrawal literature. Duration of action is far more important with half life probably responsible only for some lesser effects. Also, the plasma half life of Valium is 36-200 hours. All this happy talk about the half life of Valium being up to 200 hours is technically correct, but specifically misleading. It could just as easily be 36 hours for you. And yes, all 3 of Valium's metabolites show clinical effects. 10 point quiz tomorrow, class.

[[...]]

This is good stuff bart...thanks

I am guilty as well I paid way to much attention to half-life vs duration of action. This explains a lot...excellent info from all: Braban, ihope, birdman and bart thanks

 

Cheers,

Adie