What is happening in your brain?

[[Kr...]]

Just came across this study about a drug called riluzole that shows promise in preventing foggy aged brains. It works to strengthen connections. Interestingly, it controls glutamate release and uptake. I read about it here: http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-12-drug-riluzole-foggy-age-brain.html I'm wary about taking any more drugs but at the same time, I'm almost at two years after my klonopin taper and am still having a very difficult time with insomnia. I feel on overdrive much of the time so I think for me the balance between gaba and glutamate is permanently out of whack.

[[co...]]

Hey Parker, Where are you.  Send me a message.

[[co...]]

Hey Parker, Would please call me @ ***-***-**** Have a Great Time doing what your doing!, Best Regards, St  Mark :'( :angel:

 

 

Edited to remove personal information. - MindSeeker

[Guest [Mi...]]

Hey Parker, Would please call me @ ***-***-**** Have a Great Time doing what your doing!, Best Regards, St  Mark :'( :angel:

 

 

Edited to remove personal information. - MindSeeker

 

Colgate, this is the second post I've edited to remove your personal information.

 

Please stop posting your contact information. I've sent you two PM's regarding this.

 

We try our best to keep this site safe, but we rely on our members to exercise good judgment by not providing personal information.

[[Te...]]

Tag for location

[[Jo...]]

What a great thread.  Thank you Parker for putting this out there.  The idea of looking at symptoms as a positive rather than a negative is brilliant.

 

I was in the midst of a major anxiety attack when I started reading this thread, you know Monday morning after a holiday, mind racing 1000mph. But now I'm calmer. Not calm but much calmer.  Knowledge is power.

 

I'm feeling thankful and grateful and I want to say Thank You to whomever runs this board.  This is such a fantastic, and safe, place.  Before finding this board I thought I was some sort of wimpy freak, the drug pusher kept telling me xanax is not addictive.  Now I'm finding out there are so many others who are feeling exactly what I feel.  This thread is a great example.

 

So thank you again. You guys provide help and hope.  Please know how much that is appreciated.

 

Be well.

[[co...]]

HI PARKER, DO YOU KNOW MANY PEOPLE IN THE LAND OF ILLUSION.  AS I WAS IN FOR NEARLY 2 YEARS.  IN ADDITION I EXPERIENCED WHAT I HAVE CALLED

'MIND SINGING" HAVE YOU KNOW ANYONE WHO HAS EXPERIENCED THIS UNEXPLAINALBE EXPERIENCE?

[[Ja...]]

Parker, your post is so encouraging in so many ways. Not to mention knowledgable side. Thank you for taking time to give hope to people

[[ac...]]

[[la...]]

Thank you form me as well.  You really did explain things in a way that was understandable. I might sound stupid but sometimes... or somedays during the taper it seems really hard to comprehend everything. But this was a good read. Thank you again. It's a bitter sweet feeling being back but I can't wait until  I'm off them again.

 

Best,

 

MoniqueyFreaky

 

 

[[lu...]]

What a great explanation. 

The brain IS healing instead of falling apart.

Goodluck with your book!

 

[[Mo...]]

What a great explanation. 

The brain IS healing instead of falling apart.

Goodluck with your book!

 

big smile now....

 

 

[[Sk...]]

Just want to say THANK YOU for the detailed educated explanation of what is going on inside my coconut !! Know it will all heal in time but your post gave me real information to hold and grab on to. Thanks again.

peace,

Skidreamer .......... 

[[Re...]]

'The process to reverse this takes a while.  GABA receptors have to UPregulate and effectively "reopen" or "grow back".  Glutamate receptors must DOWNregulate, or effectively "turn off" or "prune back".'

 

Thank you Parker for a very encouraging and informative post 

It was extremely refreshing to read your take on some of the key neuro-physiological factors associated with Benzos and the CNS.  This is an area of neuroscience that is, sadly, crying out for more research and funding; indeed, according to the scientific community, there hasn't been any significant increase in funding for over 50 years... the only exception being for pharmaceutical research, which of course is not the same thing.

 

With this in mind I would encourage you to write your planned book, and I wish you every success in this project! 

 

Your post has given me great encouragement, and also provoked a few questions in my mind... Here's one of them:

 

The UPregulation / DOWNregulation process that occurs during the healing process has also been described, by Professor Ashton and others, as 'synaptic re-adaptation', referring to the increased number of GABA receptors, or binding sites, and corresponding decrease in Glutamate sites located within the synaptic membrane that surrounds CNS nerve cells; as you may know, Glutamate (NMDA) is also responsible for a process called 'synaptic plasticity', which, if I understand it correctly, facilitates the UP/DOWN reg, or adaptive process.  While I am sure that in the majority of cases, synaptic plasticity functions normally and restores the CNS to its normal balance of GABA/Glutamate receptors, is it also conceivable that in some cases, the corrective re-adaptive process is not always 100% successful, perhaps through alteration of nerve cell / neuronal gene-expression for example?  An analogy might be if we consider the natural limit of elasticity in common metals or steels; each have their own limits, beyond which they bend, and will not return to their pre-stressed form without an equal an opposite stress being applied.

Another analogy, could be the effect of excess glucose on the body's pancreas; too much and it reaches a tipping point which can trigger diabetes -this is treatable, of course, but only with specific medications; the CNS is also an organ, like the pancreas, although admittedly infinitely more complex, but is it indestructible? 

Therefore, my ultimate question is, is there a role for Benzo and/or post-Benzo withdrawal-medicated support, for example by treating such cases with antidepressants while the restorative healing process of the GABA/Glutamate systems progresses?  Because antidepressants typically increase inter-cellular Serotonin levels, the CNS is equipped with more inhibitory capacity -Serotonin is also an inhibitory neurotransmitter, but acts via a different pathway to GABA.

In other words, the concomitant use of antidepressants may be appropriate in some cases in order to provide the brain with more calming transmitters while awaiting GABA UPregulation and full recovery from the neurotoxic effects of Benzos.

 

This question relates to an experience in my own withdrawal history, and in the absence of a successfull recovery, or definitive diagnosis, I have been researching the topic for many years now.

 

Take care, Reshen 

 

[[Ca...]]

Hi Parker,

I too would have never been able to read that long of a post with so much detail....my brain (not mind) is functioning quite poorly as I taper lower and lower.  Anthea Young, God bless her, reassures me that I will get better in time.....doesn't feel like that right now, my brain hurts constantly and I'm so tired all of the time that simple thoughts are a struggle.  I know it's not a headache because nothing helps OTC.

There really is nothing to take although I wish there was a miracle pill but then again the benzo ended up becoming my miracle turned into my worst nightmare.

I hope as I am so close to being completely done with this taper (started at 10 mg of Valium, down to 2.5 now over 9 months) that I'll have a few more "windows", they've become fewer and farther in between as I get lower and lower.  Makes finishing the taper even harder hence my worst nightmare.....

I long to have my brain functioning again and to get out of bed and not feel panicked about the day ahead, wish I could put life on hold for a few months so I can heal, but is not reality.  I loved the part about putting toys away and it was just too hard, I can barely do much let alone try and work p/t and get up in the mornings for my son only to come home from driving him to school and face plant in bed, crying myself into a nap or not sleeping at all even tho my brain feels like it's exhausted?

Not exactly the life I would've chosen had my doctor outlined that this might've happened had I stayed on this medication this long, it's been over 8 years now.

God I hope I'm not too old to fully recover and heal, I'm 53. Hope my brain is healthy and young enough to get back to functioning as close to normal as possible.  Although anything is better that the way I feel right now.

God willing.....thank you,

Carolyn

[[on...]]

Thank you, very informative and reassuring

[[Bu...]]

@[Ca...]

 

I am just 3 days into not having xanax for over 20 years!  It IS a challenge.  Honestly, I'm not sure I'll make it, but I'm trying.  I just want to see what it's like not having it in my system anymore.  I've totally forgotten if I can even manage without it.

 

Three days off and the first day was insomnia.  I slept maybe an hour that first night.  The second, was a little better -- maybe 5 hours cobbled together.  Last night, I only woke up three times and got maybe 7 hours.  So -- at least as of today -- it is better.

 

My brain still feels "odd."  The first month tapering was the worst.  I had such brain fog (I had read about it, but did understand the implications) that I only sat on the couch for days on end.  I did not cook, clean, nothing.  I felt I was way out there. 

 

I still don't know if I'll get better, and I am hoping to regain my memory.  My memory was great ON Xanax, but off it has been terrible.  I only hope my memory starts to come back, as living like this without much memory (especially short term) is not good.  I'm taking it one day at a time.  I never thought I'd become an addict, and I did. 

 

Like you, the pills were a miracle. But once I realized I had inter-dose withdrawal, it made it easier to try to get off. 

 

I am 67.  So, I know how you feel about thinking you are too old, but from those here who are older, it seems that the body can somehow bounce back. 

 

Good luck on your journey.  You're doing a great job so far! 

[[ma...]]

'The process to reverse this takes a while.  GABA receptors have to UPregulate and effectively "reopen" or "grow back".  Glutamate receptors must DOWNregulate, or effectively "turn off" or "prune back".'

 

Thank you Parker for a very encouraging and informative post 

It was extremely refreshing to read your take on some of the key neuro-physiological factors associated with Benzos and the CNS.  This is an area of neuroscience that is, sadly, crying out for more research and funding; indeed, according to the scientific community, there hasn't been any significant increase in funding for over 50 years... the only exception being for pharmaceutical research, which of course is not the same thing.

 

With this in mind I would encourage you to write your planned book, and I wish you every success in this project! 

 

Your post has given me great encouragement, and also provoked a few questions in my mind... Here's one of them:

 

The UPregulation / DOWNregulation process that occurs during the healing process has also been described, by Professor Ashton and others, as 'synaptic re-adaptation', referring to the increased number of GABA receptors, or binding sites, and corresponding decrease in Glutamate sites located within the synaptic membrane that surrounds CNS nerve cells; as you may know, Glutamate (NMDA) is also responsible for a process called 'synaptic plasticity', which, if I understand it correctly, facilitates the UP/DOWN reg, or adaptive process.  While I am sure that in the majority of cases, synaptic plasticity functions normally and restores the CNS to its normal balance of GABA/Glutamate receptors, is it also conceivable that in some cases, the corrective re-adaptive process is not always 100% successful, perhaps through alteration of nerve cell / neuronal gene-expression for example?  An analogy might be if we consider the natural limit of elasticity in common metals or steels; each have their own limits, beyond which they bend, and will not return to their pre-stressed form without an equal an opposite stress being applied.

Another analogy, could be the effect of excess glucose on the body's pancreas; too much and it reaches a tipping point which can trigger diabetes -this is treatable, of course, but only with specific medications; the CNS is also an organ, like the pancreas, although admittedly infinitely more complex, but is it indestructible? 

Therefore, my ultimate question is, is there a role for Benzo and/or post-Benzo withdrawal-medicated support, for example by treating such cases with antidepressants while the restorative healing process of the GABA/Glutamate systems progresses?  Because antidepressants typically increase inter-cellular Serotonin levels, the CNS is equipped with more inhibitory capacity -Serotonin is also an inhibitory neurotransmitter, but acts via a different pathway to GABA.

In other words, the concomitant use of antidepressants may be appropriate in some cases in order to provide the brain with more calming transmitters while awaiting GABA UPregulation and full recovery from the neurotoxic effects of Benzos.

 

This question relates to an experience in my own withdrawal history, and in the absence of a successfull recovery, or definitive diagnosis, I have been researching the topic for many years now.

 

Take care, Reshen 

 

Good Question,

So you withdrew from a benzo and do not feel like  you're heeling?

[[Re...]]

Hi marbekah!

 

I have been attempting to withdraw from a Z-drug (Zopiclone) but have found it impossible to do without the aid of Diazepam (Valium) as a substitute; unfortunately, my doctor won't prescribe it.

 

I should have mentioned that my 'w/d history' includes alcohol: I ceased drinking over 17 years ago, and have been sober ever since; however, due to undiagnosed 'anxiety' type symptoms, which have never resolved themselves without the post-withdrawal pharmacological support of antidepressants, I am wondering whether I have sustained permanent neuroadaptive changes to the CNS as a result of my chronic alcohol history?

 

International peer-reviewed research suggests that long-term alcohol abuse can induce permanent changes to the UPregulation / DOWNregulation process of GABA / Glutamate synaptic binding sites in the CNS -particularly within the hippocampus; normal "healing" occurs in an undamaged brain via a process known as homeostasis, but as I suggested in my earlier post, there is no guarantee that this automated synaptic-plasticity function can withstand sustained alcohol-induced adaptation / re-adaptation-cycles over a period of decades and simply return to its default status like nothing ever happened -I believe this process is also often referred to as 'kindling', although it is a little more complex than is often described in non-clinical parlance.

 

I had an MRI scan a few years back which showed "generalized atrophy", but it would be useful to have a functional MRI (CT or SPECT scan) to further hone any underlying neuropathopysiology).

The reason I ended up on Zopiclone, a CNS depressant, hypnotic and anxiolitic etc (with a similar pharma-profile to a short-acting Benzo), was due to the fact that I stopped my antidepressant treatment, against my doctor's better judgement, in the hope of being medication-free (this was back in 2007); despite conducting a textbook taper of the antidepressant, 4 months after taking my last dose, I discovered to my horror that the original inner-agitation symptoms, including seizures, were as prominent as they had been right after I'd quit drinking some 10 years earlier!  What happened to the "healing"  My doc's earlier intuition had proven correct, namely that the tricyclic antidepressant was 'offsetting' the suspected neurophysiological abnormalities and hence enabling 'normal' functioning of my central nervous system -once it was removed, the CNS had a significantly reduced inhibitory capacity, like removing the brakes on a screaming engine; all antidepressants upregulate extracellular serotonin levels, a monoamine neurotransmitter which apart from being mood-enhancing also exhibits significant inhibitory properties, so in effect serotonin behaves like an  auxiliary 'braking' system if the brain's primary brake (GABA) is either impaired or out of commission.

 

I was later prescribed Zopiclone, because I reported that the 'agitation' symptoms were preventing me sleeping -a knee-jerk diagnosis if ever there was one, that left me stuck on this highly addictive hypnotic which only keeps the agitation at bay for 2 or 3 hours at most before requiring another dose and repeating the interminable cycle!

So in addition to suffering with the underlying medical condition described above, I now have a Z-drug dependency to boot! Great!

 

Reluctantly, it is becoming increasingly clear that I must return to taking my old antidepressant again; however, before doing so, I must first tackle the physical dependency upon Zopiclone, or maybe I can do both at the same time?

 

Complicated pathway to recovery I think... 

 

Btw, on the subject of adaptive changes to the CNS, it is also worth noting that Professor Malcolm Lader (Institute of Psychiatry, London) who conducted CAT Scans on some patients treated with Benzos, reported the following to the Medical Research Council in January 1982, on "benzodiazepine brain damage" -

 

"The results didn't surprise us because we already knew long-term alcohol use could cause permanent brain changes. There should have been a really good, large-scale study but I was never given the facilities or resources to do it. I asked to set up a unit to research benzos but they turned me down... they could have set-up a special safety committee, but they didn't even do that. I am not going to speculate why; I was grateful for the support they did give me. There were always competing interests for the same resources, so maybe it wasn't regarded as important enough. I was getting on with other research and didn't want to be labelled as the person who just pushed benzos... I should have been more proactive... I assumed the prescribing would peter out, but GPs are still swinging

them around like Smarties."

–Professor Malcolm Lader, Emeritus Professor of Clinical Psychopharmacology, Institute of Psychiatry, University of London, Independent on Sunday, November 7, 2010.

http://www.benzo.org.uk/lader2.htm

 

"The preliminary results suggested the need for further and more extensive studies: 2 of our 14 patients have definite cortical atrophy, 5 have a borderline abnormality and the rest are normal. However, I am led to believe that the analysis of the radiologist was fairly crude and that more refined techiniques might reveal further problems.  Accordingly I think that the amount of abnormality is probably an understatement."

–Professor Malcolm Lader.

http://www.benzo.org.uk/amisc/lader4.pdf

http://www.benzo.org.uk/amisc/mrc82.pdf

 

There clearly remains a great deal of clinical and academic research still to be done on this vital topic, and I wish those professionals who are engaged in the fight for the necessary resources all the best; but I should also qualify that the neuroscientific approach to understanding Benzo dependency -while being an essential, if poorly understood, constituent piece of the overall jigsaw- must be fully integrated, where appropriate, with other clinical methodologies (such as psychological therapies for instance) in order to achieve optimal holistic outcomes for those of us who suffer from the blight of involuntary tranquilizer addiction.

 

Take care,

 

Reshen. 

 

[[ma...]]

Thanks for all the information. I find it very interesting.  I've tried to find articles on alcohol addiction and withdrawal to help explain things about benzo WD to me that I just never understand. 

I've hit a wall here at the end of my taper.  Why?  I mean what is happening with these receptors that my cuts have hurt more and more both mentally and physically toward the end?  I admittedly cut too fast at first out of ignorance but even at that time I has only been on them 6 months.  If an alcoholic decided to stop drinking and even taper down but at the end got stuck and only drank 2 beers a day...what would biologically happen if  you just drank a small amount.  Would his anxiety be through roof because that small amount is just a tease?  How much do you think the neurotransmitters actually heal as we taper vs finally stopping the drug...seems different for different people.  I feel no difference terrible sxs no as when I'd cut 6 months except the cut is smaller.

 

I've thought about going to an AA meeting in hopes of finding someone that has also gone through benzo WD.  What do studies show about the reasons and length of increased anxiety after quitting alcohol?  I know alcohol binds differently.  I saw a youtube video where an AA counselor explains how Gaba is upregulated instead of down regulated and the cause for addiction is that there is not enough gaba to fill the extra grown receptors.  This did not make sense.  I've heard that description for ADs thought.  When we withdrawal from the AD the body has made more receptors to adjusts.

 

Were the sxs that returned for you just physical or did your anxiety return after the AD?  Im surprised that an AD helps calm seizure type movements as opposed to depakote etc.

I don't think it would be a bad idea adding the AD back and then tackling the other meds. I wonder if it just needs more time off the AD for your body to adjust.  I mean if benzos take this long then your brain may need more time.  Explain your agitated sxs more?

Also I don't understand how glutamate which is the excititory transmitter is responsible for placisity?  Interesting

 

Do you know how long the people used in those studies used benzos on average?

[[Fa...]]

Thank you so much! I have read this post several times when I am going through waves to help me. I really enjoyed the link you have on your profile. Blessed be the name!!!!!! Made me have a better day!! Have a blessed day!!! Yeah to healing!!!

 

 

[[Li...]]

Hi Parker, it is great to read what you posted. Thanx!

 

What is repeating in my mind is the voice,' what if it is Anxiety and no withdrawal??'. This thought scrares me so much. I have had very strange things before I got my first benzo. Things I never had before. But I had a medical check all over and nothing could be find. What do you do to make yourself more relief with this?

[[Ne...]]

Hi Parker,

What you wrote is very good. It describes what is going on very well, and I like your analogies. I'm not sure if I'm posting this in the right place as I've never posted before, so bear with me, if it didn't work out.

I recently sustained a mild brain injury (one concussion too many) and have since been tapering off diazepam slowly in the search to "get my brain back". Better now than never. What I have discovered is that the concussion symptoms are heightened in some areas, but less in others, as my brain slowly rewires. There are windows of clarity that last a few seconds. I am grateful for those. I am also grateful for the other ones (light too bright, tinnitus, dizziness, loss of sense of where I am in space, visual problems, memory problems...on and on it goes). It was great to hear someone else was having trouble getting things organized, or has akathisia. I can't seem to cut vegetables currently. It is so weird. I also get the sensation that something is on the backs of my legs when nothing is there. I'm sure more is to come.

I was wondering what you thought about people tapering off benzos while healing from a (whiplash) brain injury. I thought it would be helpful. So did my doctor. Sometimes I wonder if I'm trying to do too much at once, as some days are incapacitating. There is definitely an ebb and flow. From 22mg diazepam per day to 9mg/day, weekly decreases at 1mg/week. It's been pretty easy so far (I'm not working, whew) but now am really getting a lot of anxiety and brain "weirdness". Any comments?

[[Ro...]]

The best I have ever read!  Explains and encourages.  Thank you, Parker! 

[[...]]

How is the brain causing the several gum inflammation that I never had before I started taking Ativan? I have good oral health and suddenly the entire lining of the mouth is so inflamed that I can't eat and it hurts constantly. I had it some when on my full dose but so much more now that I'm over halfway through my taper. What is causing this? And will it get better? That is the biggest fear. Thanks.