Struggling badly at the end , Please moderators-experience members.

[[mi...]]

I am at 0.120mg K after a long year taper. I had reinstated due to a supplement that I couldn't cope with. It was that or my job.

My doses are 0.050 morning and 0.070 night.

I noticed at 0.150 a month 1/2 ago that symptoms started to worsen. I did hold for 1/2 a month or so and then continued in a slower pace 0.007 during 10 days microtapering REDUCING DAILY using a 100 ml syringe.. Then I lower it more to 0.007 every 14 days. Now holding for two weeks or so.

In fact, it's been a week that my sleep started to deteriorate badly. Lot of pressure in my chest dizziness -nausea- Tinnitus and restlessness.

Options I'm considering:

-Combine both doses and take them at night to help with the sleep. I don't know if do it gradually or just at once. I noticed in the morning dose that I feel bad after taking it. This will help to alleviate that dose symptoms in the morning if I take both at night.

-Keep holding the way it is and let the storm pass. (Feels like a hurricane to me now)

- Up dose a bit and see what happens. (I've been here enough to know the risks of this option. It would be like last resort type of thing. If I do, I would like to know if any of you, did it and at what dosage.

I know this is a tough question even for moderators. I really feel in the corner and frustrated these days. The lack of sleep is terrible as everybody know. I was sleeping somewhat ok till two weeks ago.

I will really appreciate your opinion on this matter.

Mice.

 

[[ho...]]

Hi Mice -

 

I am sorry that you are struggling so much.

 

I think the idea of combing your dose into one is a good idea at night, and then holding for another couple of weeks and see how that goes.

 

What about micro dosing daily, instead of every 14 days and? Maybe that cut is just too hard on your system.  You can cut daily, or like I do, every 3days and 2 days I lower my dose and I hold if needed. Example 1.36mgx3days, 1.35mgx2days, 1.34mgx3days and on and on.  If I start feeling wonky, I just hold.  For me doing cut and hold, even when I tried a small % at a much higher mg, I still had horrible sx.  Anyway, just a thought.

 

Hopefully more will jump in and maybe can offer you advice too.

 

Marie 

[[Bo...]]

Hi there, I hit a wall around .18mg so not sure if trying slower will

Help you some. I ended up at going .01mg drop , so .1mL holds for 6-7 days and then going down again by .1mL (my formulation though is .25mg/10mL) so overall I stay at .01mg drop a month since last summer and that helped me out. Well I switched to liquid compound, slowed to 5% a month and then started a decrease of .01mg over a month bc I wanted to be linear at that point, and I went from bedridden most of last year to more functional these last 6 months. Still hard but not where I was last year bedbound aka horrendous sll day and night, just not sustainable. Thankfully the .01mg a month trial worked out this far.

 

Maybe the .06mg reduction over the last couple months has kind of caught up s little and slowing s tiny bit mkght give you the reprieve yiu need to keep marching forward.

 

Hope you find something that works and know that you’ve made it this far and you’re going to persevere all the way down!! Sending hugs!

[[mi...]]

Hi How! Thanks for your advise.

Yes, Im doing a microtaper and my reduction is daily. So the 0.007 is divided  thruout ten days using a program called Benzoalwaysdata.com. So the program makes it in such way that sometimes you hold on one dose for a couple of days while the other dose get redused, all again thru a 10 day period.

I use a syringe devided in 0.001 ml to do so.

Yes, it looks hold and cut the way I layed it out. Sorry!

[[je...]]

I have a theory that I've mentioned before and it relates to the therapeutic value of benzo's. When I got to 0.07mg of my dose (I was only dosing once a day) I had my preexisting benzo condition return with significant impact. Prior to this dose it was coming and going but it was still manageable. But at this dose it was really bad. My suspicion is that I was losing the therapeutic value the benzo was providing.

 

I have been wondering for quite some time what happens with people who split their doses and they start losing therapeutic value across their individual doses but the combined dose is still fairly high. I am wondering if this could be the case here?

 

As you said this is really difficult to answer. I am the type of person that took many risks with my taper and I was prepared to live with the consequences. However when it comes to others, I know things can get infinitely worse, so I'm very hesitant to rock the boat and make suggestions as I'm so scared I'll be the cause of worse pain. What is your gut telling you you should do?

[[mi...]]

Hi JB we interacted several times!

As per Ashton she seems to finish last doses with only one dose at night. She said that the few of the doses the less the patient get attached to the drug.

Having said that Dr Horowitz in a popular video here at BB Keep two even doses all the way to the end.

I would like to have just one dose a day for practical reasons. Don't need to take the bottle to work is one. The other reason is that the morning dose makes me feel bad afterwards. I don't know if it’s that I take it with empty stomach or the Ora Plus. I still see the benefits of two doses as far as avoiding a long time between only one dose.

My gut feeling is to try only one dose at night and see. I noticed that sometimes I can go all the way to noon without problems. This is probably because I’m getting distracted. Ill tried to switch in three days or so. Also it gives a more robust dose at night so in theory helping sleep.

The other thing I’m suspicious of is the new batch that I made. I collected the pills from the leftovers from different bottles and the pills container to complete the number. That was when the hard symptoms started.

Were your symptoms physical or mental? 

 

[[je...]]

I was leaning towards combining the doses as well. So if that's what you're keen to do, then maybe try it. 

 

My symptoms are mainly physical.

[Guest [...]]

Hi micedana

 

I think you’re on the right track… jelly makes a good point about therapeutic value, so dosing once a day may be well worth a try.

 

I really just want to share some personal experience and a similar trend I’ve noticed with numerous other members when it comes to any symptom increases after dosing. .

 

When I c/t’d from clonazepam for 19 days and switched to diazepam, it took considerable time to stabilise, and throughout this process, I experienced a type of paradoxical effect after dosing… symptoms would consistently increase after each dose and then start to tail off after several hours. I even remember going into strange convulsions a number of times after dosing. I could have easily diagnosed myself as paradoxical, but I know now I wasn’t truely paradoxical. As I eventually stabilised on a holding dose, things got better and eventually dosing began to feel therapeutic rather than paradoxical. As I began to taper, too fast (for me), I gradually began to have the very same paradoxical type experience, and the more I pushed my taper, the more this strange effect increased. But, as soon as I would hold to allow myself to stabilise ‘properly’, the more this paradoxical effect (after dosing) decreased again, until it again disappeared altogether, allowing to experience my doses as therapeutic again, and I’ve noticed this same experience play out with a number of other members.

 

Obviously, if you switch your total daily dose to your night dose, you will no doubt want to hold for a period to see how you fair, so maybe just holding for a little longer will help allow your system to up-regulate from any shock it’s currently experiencing, and allow you to move forward again. My own experience is that the more we push an already shocked system (entire body), the more our systems fail to function properly, because everything is connected. I have gone from not being able to make less than a 1% reductions to no problem at all making continual 5% reductions just through allowing myself to rest long enough for my body to decompress and up-regulate its functionality across the board…

 

I think sometimes we probably reach a point where we need to allow the accumulation of stress in/on the body (over a long period) enough time to properly decompress, like a reset, before we can move forward more comfortably.

 

It’s just something to consider… no guarantee of course.

 

 

 

 

[[mi...]]

Thanks Winter.

Very deep analysis of dosing! You open my eyes as far as holding more and that the doses may not be the problem. 

I didn't do a full switch of doses to the night dose yet. I just took the night dose adding only 1/2 the value of the morning dose (0.070+0.025). I didn't feel comfortable doing a full change now with all the present symptoms flying around.

Results: I slept well. What I noticed different was feeling more drowsiness than normal. Then I still took the morning dose in full but later in the morning (0.050). Drowsiness continued but I feel way better than the days before specially the tightness in my chest and LESS anxious. I think that the increase to the nigh dose (I don't know if calling rescue dose or dose increase) helped not only to sleep better but also with the symptoms I was experiencing the last days. Too early to say but it was a kind off relief.

I think that what took me to this situation was the fact that, although, I was reasonable tapering still was not slow enough for my system after having reinstated and it finally caught me on the tricky 0.200mg problematic zone.

I know that increasing the dose to 0.145 may be problematic but is the value that I passed when the symptoms started to show. Maybe it was signal of what I need. 

I can still go backwards a bit with the increased night dose to find the sweet spot, but I would prefer not to change that much and hold for a while. I have some stressful situations coming and I more willing to do a long hold and then start a slower taper.

As far as one dose at night I'm thinking more of doing it when doses get way smaller and be less symptomatic.

I’m still open to ideas while I can.

Thanks,

Mice   

 

[Guest [...]]

Hi mice

 

I think it’s wise to hold for a while… especially since you have stressful events coming up.

 

Keep us informed as to how you’re travelling (doing)… it’s an Australianism.

[[mi...]]

Thanks winter!

Actually the stress situation is travel. My wife a teacher got everything set up to fly overseas to Europe.

I work for an airline so not a big deal there just the Airbnb if I'm not be able to make it.

I just go day by day. They look at you me and say you look and act ok but as you know we are struggling inside.

Everybody says ,go ahead "go" that is going to distract you! And they are probably right. I' m relatively functional so don't really know what to do. I was somewhat ok  3 weeks ago. Can't sleep more than 4 hours now. My therapist is telling me the same thing . He says mostly that my base anxiety is the problem and he is probably right. There are a lot of psicologiacal stuff in our condition. Soo don't  know what to do really. My wife be waiting for a long time for this. It's really complicated situation.

Mice

[Guest [...]]

Hi mice

 

Hearing you say you were somewhat okay 3 weeks ago is a good sign, but I think you’ve slipped into a vulnerable place right now. If you choose to go ahead with your travel plans, I certainly wouldn’t be making any drastic changes or force tapering your dose right now. I would just look at trying to return to how you were feeling 3 weeks ago… give yourself every opportunity to try and enjoy the travel, or, at least make it as tolerable as possible.

 

I understand… we often try and put on a brave face… hide what we’re experiencing… and because we seem to look okay to those around us, external expectations can become overwhelming. We sometimes do ourselves a disservice by hiding the truth of our experience from others.

[[mi...]]

Thanks winter! People around us don't really see what's going on. This situation is really bothering my family now. My therapist is saying that if it gets overwhelming I probably need some other medication like an ssri thing that I m not really open to do. Is a situation where you can take the wrong direction and add more problems. I would probably be more open to increase the dose instead  although I don't feel well when I take them. I'm probably in tolerance or paradoxical.Sorry I may be overwhelming you that's probably part of my anxious thoughts. I think I have to take it day by day practice be in the present moment and a kid as much as possible stress situations.

I really appreciate your help and you inside.

Thanks a lot !

Mice

[Guest [...]]

Hi mice

 

You’re welcome, mice.

 

Because you’ve hit this rough patch, it’s natural for your mind to panic and jump to conclusions of paradoxical… and although I’m far from an expert (who is?), I think it’s more likely that you have gradually reached a point where your reductions have caught up with you, now that you’re at this lower dose. Often, members probably need to slow down once they reach these lower doses, but, more often, it’s not until they actually experience the ‘heavy hit’ that they make that adjustment, rather than predicting it’s onset earlier on and heading it off before the hit.

 

You could potentially return to your previous dose before your most recent reduction to see if that helps you stabilise and then taper slower (smaller reductions, longer holds), or you could just hold where you are and see if your symptoms eventually begin to settle down.

[[mi...]]

 

Hi winter. As always, I welcome your expertise on this!

I thought my second taper would be like my first where I had a soft landing. I tapered from 0.750 (that I use for two months). Due to the length of use and the qty I accelerated the cuts at the very beginning. All the way till now I encounter some bumps that were solved adjusting the rate.

Now at the end, I took the example of JB cutting 0.001 everyday x 7 days and hold 3 days. I was doing the same but then turned to a more conservative reduction making cuts of 0.0008 average x day throughout 10 days. You hold on one dose a couple of days while reducing on the second dose and so on.

I do reductions every day using benzoalwaysdata.com program.

I tried to find now the right dose. I increased it to 0.140 (0.060/0.090) and feel somehow more stable. There were a couple of days that i had to take a rescue dose upping the 0.090 to 0.0140 in a very rough time. It worked for me so at least I know is not a paradoxical situation although I felt weird afterwards. It helped me mainly to sleep and with the chest tightness that I really hate.

Hope I don't need to up the doses more. I have vacations planned from my wife that will put some stress on me. She thinks I just need distraction. Nobody believes that withdrawal exist. Even my very nice Psychiatric thinks that is mostly my anxiety, that I really have, playing with me. I agree in part. I always had bad anxiety, but I was always able to control it. Is the withdrawal now that greased the post, and we can't handle it properly anymore.

Thanks winter!

 

 

[[mi...]]

Update.

I've been incrementally updosing  during the month of Jun but things got really rough. Finally got advice from my dr. I stoped the liquid and updose in pill form to 0.375 mg cutting one 0.5 pill in four and taking three pieces a day of 0.125. Very frustrated endeed but I couldn't cope with the lack of sleep, had to work. Yes, like some here we either stay on the dose for some time but in this case I couldn't stand it. The updose solved the sleeping problem but don't feel good during the day. Deep Depresion and anxiety went up. I guess the frustration is playing games with me. My idea is to hold as much as I can until my body gets use to the current dose. This has put a lot of stress on me and family.

My PCP  considers 0.375 a very low and encourage me to go up if needed but my good PD very benzo consious just leaves everything up to me.

This is my third taper in my long 5 year journey. This third time has been very rough. Of those 5 years I was 2 years off of the drug most of the time tapering this thing.

 

 

[Guest [...]]

Hi mice

 

I’m glad the up-dose helped with your sleep. You will need to give yourself enough time for other symptoms to decrease and find your baseline level set of symptoms.

 

As you say… this is your third taper, so I certainly wouldn’t look at yours as a low dose… there really is no such thing as a low dose of benzodiazepines, and most common, the more one withdrawals and then reinstates, the more intensely symptomatic the next taper/withdrawal. We basically dig ourselves into a deeper hole. So, for the sake of your taper, I would try to avoid updosing any more, unless it were absolutely necessary. Just give yourself plenty of time to find stabilisation on your current dose. Try and be as patient as possible, as stabilisation doesn’t just happen overnight, it often takes a considerable amount of time and patience.

 

Keep us updated, mice.

 

WS

 

 

[[mi...]]

Thanks Winter you've been very nice and pasient with me.

I'm really pushing as hard as I can. Had a good sleep last night , interrupted but 6 good hs. Then a very high anxiety in the morning with the classic intrusive thoughts that I normally fix with a cold shower and breathing exercises.

I work 10 Hs. shift and that makes it very difficult. Do you work too? I saw in your profile the at one point you were barely funtioning. Could you elborate on that?

My tinnitus, that I didn't mention, is the pulsatile type, is really bothering me too on the top of the other symptoms.

This time arround I feel more physical stuff going on than before. Mainly tremors and instability if I am under big stress. Actually the last two weeks have been very stressful with family issues. Is nice to have a family that can support you. The problem is that they don't believe that withdrawal is the cause of all this problems. I had to cancel vacations due to this and that had a big impact on my wife.

Hopefully I'll settle in this dose. The change from liquid to pill could have also have an impact. It's being only two weeks since the big change. I guess I have to keep waiting.

Thanks for your support that is invaluable at this time!

Thanks

Mice

[[je...]]

I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time. My guess would be kindling is factoring in this time. Only time will tell if holding will settle the symptoms but you might need to prepare for a bumpy ride. I don't want to discourage you, I just want you to be mentally prepared for all possibilities. It's so tough with these benzo's to know and understand what is happening. I truly hope you feel better soon. It's hard to do life when we're struggling this much. 

[Guest [...]]

Thanks Winter you've been very nice and pasient with me.

I'm really pushing as hard as I can. Had a good sleep last night , interrupted but 6 good hs. Then a very high anxiety in the morning with the classic intrusive thoughts that I normally fix with a cold shower and breathing exercises.

I work 10 Hs. shift and that makes it very difficult. Do you work too? I saw in your profile the at one point you were barely funtioning. Could you elborate on that?

My tinnitus, that I didn't mention, is the pulsatile type, is really bothering me too on the top of the other symptoms.

This time arround I feel more physical stuff going on than before. Mainly tremors and instability if I am under big stress. Actually the last two weeks have been very stressful with family issues. Is nice to have a family that can support you. The problem is that they don't believe that withdrawal is the cause of all this problems. I had to cancel vacations due to this and that had a big impact on my wife.

Hopefully I'll settle in this dose. The change from liquid to pill could have also have an impact. It's being only two weeks since the big change. I guess I have to keep waiting.

Thanks for your support that is invaluable at this time!

Thanks

Mice

 

Hi mice

 

I haven’t been working since c/t induced acute withdrawal. Things were very rough for a few months.

 

I’m encouraged by the fact you can maintain a working life, as many are simply too symptomatic and unwell to maintain any kind of working life.

 

Keep us informed on how things are progressing.

 

WS

 

 

[[Ta...]]

I'm stuck at .15 mg lorazepam, and nothing is making any sense right now. It's like a roller coaster of killer anxiety with crippling pins and needles, followed by a day or a few hours of being relatively okay. Then there is blood-curdling terror and dread. Followed by some relative "okay-ness."

I'm wondering about the loss of therapeutic value at lower doses. Could you all explain or theorize about this a little more? I dose 4 times a day to avoid interdose symptoms, should I try to dose just at night? It feels like I'm back to square one, and it's a nightmare. I so very much want to be free.

[[mi...]]

At this level any dose changes affects receptors occupancy more than in higher levels. That's the new hyperbolic theory. So you have to go extremely slow. Don't get desperate to finish. I would not make any major changes that may disrupt everything.Hold until stable. Updose may or may not help. Anxiety plays a big role on this. I know it sucks but it's what we have to fight against.

If you can stand the symptoms while functional hold and start the taper when more stable.

[[Ta...]]

Thanks Mice. I'm holding. Ora Plus made me really sick before. I became severely allergic to it. I don't know if that might be why you're having such a hard time. My symptoms improved significantly when I stopped Ora Plus.

Eileen

 

[[Ta...]]

JELLY BABY

 

I read your theory about the diminishing therapeutic value of the Benzo dose at lower levels. On the evening of July 4, I decided to take the full days dose at midnight. For 4 days now, nearly all of my PHYSICAL symptoms ARE GONE. This has never happened in the three years I've been tapering. I still have mental/emotional symptoms, but I feel a tremendous sense of relief from not being in physical torment. Wow!

 

[[je...]]

JELLY BABY

 

I read your theory about the diminishing therapeutic value of the Benzo dose at lower levels. On the evening of July 4, I decided to take the full days dose at midnight. For 4 days now, nearly all of my PHYSICAL symptoms ARE GONE. This has never happened in the three years I've been tapering. I still have mental/emotional symptoms, but I feel a tremendous sense of relief from not being in physical torment. Wow!

 

Hey Tall Girl

 

I am very happy you're experiencing such great relief! I discussed this issue of loss of therapeutic value with someone else who has a lot more knowledge about benzo's and half-lives and drug interactions than me. My main concern was people splitting their doses especially those on short half-lives dosing multiple times a day. This person said they had the exact same concerns as me. Having a credible person confirm this could be problematic during tapering is the reason why I'm mentioning it when people are at low multiple doses. But I wasn't sure how it would impact interdose withdrawal if doses are combined.

 

I still hate the fact that we have to experiment on ourselves to try and find these answers. And also that no two people react the same. I am just ecstatic that it worked out for you.