Titration Plan Suggestions Welcome

[[...]]

If you do the dry taper, you should wait for the better scale to come in.

 

If you want my advice on which of the 3 options to follow, I suggest you take option 3.

 

That is, we start with the liquid method and use it until you get tired of the liquids or some other issue happens.  Then we have the dry method as a fall back.

 

If you want help starting the liquid, let me know and I will make a step by step for you to follow.

 

Bob

[[Ba...]]

Bob,

 

I am in your hands - I will try anything, so please feel free to direct as necessary. I cannot get the same scale as you because Amazon.co.uk does not stick it, but I am getting something similar. It is challenging to know which one to choose as there is such a variety, yet all promise to do the same thing. My head got scrambled yesterday, but hopefully, I will be more balanced today and making a minor purchasing decision will not feel like the biggest mountain in the world to climb.

 

I guess anything mid-range that is accurate to 0.001 will be fine.

[[...]]

So do you want to try liquid tapering first or just wait for the scale and do dry cut tapering?

[[Ba...]]

Hi Bob,

 

As I expressed I cannot really think straight so I would prefer to do as I am told. I cannot deal with decision making. I have just spent the whole day in bed, virtually, having a pity party or sleeping. It only took one annoying email from a lawyer I am dealing with for me to cave 10 minutes ago and reach for my cheat dose again. This behaviour has to stop and I need to stabilise.

 

I am concerned as my online supplier claims that my latest order for backup pills was mailed 1st Class Registered 2 days ago and it still has not arrived. My thinking is engaging catastrophizing and this is entirely unhelpful to me, you and this board.

 

I am hoping that by getting busy and cleaning my messy home and dealing with issues such as laundry I will get an increased sense of control back. I am feeling like I am losing it at the moment and my will to fight is weakening. Perhaps it's just emotional exhaustion but it is more likely the seesaw of my dosing that is causing this anhedonic state that makes just loading the dishwasher seem like painting the Golden Gate Bridge.

 

I am attempting to perform one task at a time and hope that some sense of hope will return.

 

I think that it will be at least a week to 10 days before I am stable on 10mg, particularly as I have just sleepwalked into a relapse this afternoon.

 

I am feeling very alone. I want to be able to communicate my condition to my family and dream of having a supportive medical doctor in my corner. This is not going to happen and I realise acceptance is key, along with taking action and taking back control. I am battle-weary as this is all my own fault, I've been here before and I am filled with an enormous sense of dread about what is to come.

 

Apologies for my venting and I shall try to resist indulging myself like this moving forward. I am just writing this through frustration with myself and my failure to get organised. As pathetic as it may sound the liquid titration looks like it is a messy business to me in my current state; I am also slightly concerned about the possibility of having to deal with vodka on a daily basis. I am not sure it's a good idea to have a bottle of vodka in the house as I might abuse it. I wish there was a way of making a tincture that had a longer life than one day - I guess what appeals most about the dry taper is the possibility of planning my dosing a month in advance. It looks like a good job for a Sunday afternoon

 

 

I have reduced previously in 2.5 mg increments and despite that not being easy I have managed to get down to a lower dose of 2.5/2mg relatively painlessly over several weeks on four separate occasions. I think if I get my attitude sorted I can likely get down to the 2mg zone fairly (but not unnecessarily) swiftly.

 

I must admit reading the stories of some peoples' endurance over massive timelines on this forum is extremely disheartening. I am impatient and I need to allow myself to accept reality - it's akin to a sense of mourning. It will pass and I will be back in charge soon I am sure but I feel like I am drowning in fear and isolation at the moment.

 

I am very grateful you are there and are being so kind and proactive. I don't want to be a moaner and look forward to getting over this hump, as I have before, and working my way towards the point at which I have usually had the most difficulty (the last few mg's) in a more structured and "held" manner.

 

I think writing this is making me realise that the dry taper is going to be most useful to me. The liquid taper seems risky.

 

 

Thanks for reading and once again apologies for my carping. It has been a difficult week and I am very angry with myself and now getting anxious that my backup pills have been intercepted and will not arrive.

 

I am going to have to dig deep and ask for help through prayer - my current strategy, or lack of one, is causing more chaos than I need. I cannot profess to have a deep faith. I was reading about your road trip and it sounded romantic and very appealing. I would love to do something like that. Not having a deep faith does not mean that I do not believe in the power of prayer though.

 

I have failed to order a scale yet as the choice is overwhelming - I guess a scale is a scale though and anything will do. Here is the choice from Amazon in the UK -

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Szaerfa-Digital-Milligram-Scale-0-001g/dp/B08G4YPXTM/ref=pd_di_sccai_3?pd_rd_w=GcuJA&pf_rd_p=2529c273-c9d4-4495-807e-68ed4dfade5e&pf_rd_r=4P22AWBW79TS26JG79R1&pd_rd_r=a33b25a5-e0e4-444d-ba52-623107a8c359&pd_rd_wg=2UBVB&pd_rd_i=B08G4YPXTM&psc=1

 

 

I cannot see the identical scale that you used but suppose they are all much of a muchness. I can order and as I have Prime I get net day delivery. For now, I just need to get stable I think. I was feeling so good and empowered just 48 hours ago and now I like a crying baby.

 

I'm sorry - just letting you know where I am.

 

I suppose I want to know why you think the liquid would be the best way to get started; can you explain what you perceive as the advantages and then perhaps I can embrace the method. There is also no need to keep a litre bottle of vodka in my kitchen - I can get miniatures. There is a Polish shop nearby which sells strong Polish spirit in small bottles - this could allay any dangers of me pressing any more "F***K It" buttons.

 

Thanks for reading and I hope you can understand I don't want to come across as a mewling idiot - it's just where I am right now. I need to start inhabiting the solution and give up living in the problem. I think it is wise advice to control the amount of research one does as it can be counter-productive. This really is a day at a time battle and trying to solve the whole problem at once is not useful.

 

Thanks again (and sorry),

 

 

Bancha

 

[[Ba...]]

Bob,

 

In respect of the liquid taper as exhibited by Benzo Brains in "Use water to taper your benzo!" I am curious as to why she is using so much water. 300ml seems a lot - I wonder if it can be done with smaller volumes? Is there a reason to use 300ml as the standard?

 

I also wonder if the dry taper is more efficient as there is little or no waste. Were I to do the liquid taper I think I would need to bulk order more pills.

 

I'm sorry for being a worry-wort, it's not been a good day

[[Pa...]]

Bancha, your gut is telling you to taper using the dry method, I believe you should listen.  Being talked into something when it goes against what your instincts are telling you isn't the way to go.  If you're worried about keeping alcohol in the house, no matter what size the bottle then listen to that because I agree it could prove to be a problem. 

 

When people like us are in terrible pain we reach for ways to make it stop even when we know better, addiction is powerful but we can triumph if we put up the barriers necessary for us to succeed.

[[sl...]]

Hello Bancha,

Thanks for sharing so much! There's so much that you mention, I'm afraid I won't be able to address it all, but I hear your struggle and I commend your efforts.

 

Liquid titrating is not as hard as it may at first appear. I personally do not advocate or practice the daily liquid batch making method; that's on par for me with fussing daily with a cheap scale... i.e. awful. I make a single 30ml batch of liquid clonazepam and it lasts me a month or so; no need for bottles of vodka sitting around. I also never throw away ANY of my prescription. I'm on 1.3mg/day of clonazepam (i.e. 26mg of diazepam)... so how is this possible?

 

The secret is that I only use my liquid to titrate 1/4 of a tablet at a time. I have an aluminum pill cutter and I can accurately cut my tablets into 1/4s. I make a liquid clonazepam where 1ml of liquid = 1/4 of a tablet. To titrate I switch-o-change-o, 1/4 of a tablet from one of my doses into 1ml of liquid and keep taking the rest of my doses as tablets (or pieces of tablets). I titrate down the liquid dose by a little bit every single day until it's all gone. Then I repeat the magic act on the next 1/4 of a tablet, either from the same dose or a different one.

 

This same liquid titration method is applicable to diazepam; it doesn't need to be a daily taper like I'm doing, but the liquid gives an incredibly fine degree of taper rate control. This may come in handy when you get to smaller doses.

 

But, after saying all that, it doesn't sound like you need to do anything about tapering at the moment; the need I suggest you meet, and meet well, is stability. Stability, stability, stability. Might be your hardest challenge! Sounds like your weakest link. Tapering doesn't help stability.

 

So I agree with hanging out at 10mg/day, as long as it takes to get neurologically stable. And to take this time to stabilize every single other thing in your life that you can; finances, job, social relations, apartment organization, routine, exercise, etc. It sounds like you're already doing some of this just to keep distracted; bravo!

 

I'm not against dry tapering, but it doesn't seem like that's going to be urgent any time soon. I don't even think a scale is necessary in your case right now; maybe just take the pressure off and forget about it for a week or so. I suggest making sure you have an AWESOME pill cutter (I like the aluminum ones that never dull). And I suggest getting a handle on sourcing your pills, ideally in small tablet sizes like 2mg or similar (maybe this was already discussed?).

 

Stability, stability, stability. It's been the hardest thing for me to do as well. And I believe it's the foundation of a safe and successful taper.

 

You can do this! 

[[...]]

My dear Bancha,

 

I just said a prayer for you.  Suffering can lead to enlightenment, so keep your heart open.  The benzo problem is bad but perhaps it will lead you to a new path.

 

I agree with Pamster.  It is not wise for you to do liquid and have vodka in the house.

 

We should start with dry taper.

 

I looked at the scale you selected.  It claims to have 0.001 g resolution so I say BUY IT.

 

When you get the scale, contact me and I will do the math for a good taper plan. 

 

In the meantime, stabilize on 10mg per day and look for non-drug methods to control anxiety.  Search on google and youtube for anxiety controlling tips and follow them.  Make them a new part of your existence.

 

 

 

 

[[Ba...]]

Thanks all; reading your lovely speedy replies has brought a tear to my eye. I shall now read and re-read. I am so grateful to have you guys in my corner.

 

I am about to go to a regular AA group  I attend for fellowship mainly. I am longing to find a 12 Step group where Benzo knowledge is more widespread. Someone has suggested CA - I might give that a go.

 

I am prepared t give anything a go but stabilize, stabilize, stabilize tonight's takeaway.

 

Slownsteady, I might be asking for more info on your method in due course. Stability is key for now. It's a marathon and not a sprint, indeed.

 

 

God bless you all

 

 

 

Baccha 

[[sl...]]

I'm so glad we could help.

 

I think it's great that you're doing AA in-person; fellowship is so important. Do you have NA, narcotics anonymous, near you?

 

Keep us posted!

[[Ba...]]

Hi again slownsteady,

 

I have been accessing 12 Step groups by Zoom - I have not found much luck with NA, perhaps I should try harder but I have been silenced before as someone who is "using" because I am n my taper and therefore asked not to speak. That is a bit humiliating. I also find the identification with people who have used crack and heroin etc is limited - I can identify more with drinkers it seems. I must say I am tiring with the whole 12 Step thing - I'm getting tired of everything.

[[da...]]

I must say I am tiring with the whole 12 Step thing - I'm getting tired of everything.

 

Have you tried any deep breathing exercises? I have found them to very helpful in calming down my anxiety and random stress.

[[Ba...]]

Hi, darkarchon,

 

I have indeed been trying the breathing exercises, Wim Hoff etc. The funny thing is with the waves and windows situation because I find my appetite to do these positive things waxes and wanes. I find the best thing to do is go for maximum distraction. The English summer is particularly disappointing so far this year. I look forward to doing some wild swimming soon when the weather improves. I was doing plenty of walking, too, but that seems to have fallen off my list of daily positives. I need t get back into a good routine. Frankly, I am waiting for this bout of minor depression to pass. I have been caring for an elderly friend who is Stage IV cancer, and it's good for taking me out f myself, but it's also somewhat heartbreaking. I have just come back from visiting her home, and I feel lazy and uninspired to do anything much. It's a struggle to eat at the moment. It will pass. 

[[sl...]]

"This too will pass." Wise words.

 

I'm sorry to hear that you were shunned at NA for still using. That doesn't sound like the kind of AA groups I was exploring last winter via Zoom; anyone, at any place in their process, could describe themselves as "in recovery", whether they were still using or not. I guess some groups are more inclusive than others.

 

There is something called "Recovery Dharma". It's based on Buddhist philosophy, and there is a free book and free meetings. The meetings are very inclusive, and the ones I attended consist of studying the book and Buddhist principles related to addiction recovery, and sharing personal struggles/journeys. I found it really inspiring and would do it more if the meetings here in the US weren't all in the evenings. There are a number of active meetings in the UK, some in person, some online.

 

https://recoverydharma.org/

https://recoverydharma.org/wp-content/uploads/misc-content/Recovery_Dharma-v1.0.pdf

 

I hope you keep reaching out for support; a wide support web is so important for me.

[[Ba...]]

Hi, again slownsteady,

 

I am really grateful for your regular replies. I did attend, via Zoom, an "addiction" day at the London Buddhist Centre. It was interesting, and there can be no doubting the healing power of meditation. I try to do it daily.

 

 

I agree that reaching out as widely as possible is the way to go, and I am getting braver and braver in my approach. I have found that AA on Zoom has been invaluable, but the issue seems to be that, t my amazement, there is such a deficit of Benzo awareness in the groups. I am now getting more proactive and asking out loud for anyone who knows anyone, and I have some promising leads.

 

It's being faced with either judgement ("oh, you are on drugs") or ignorance ("why don't you just chuck your pills in the trash?") that is most exasperating.

 

I am getting there, though and being on this board has given me new drive. I am just about to check into a 5.00 pm AA meeting now - be right back.

 

 

 

Bancha...

 

 

[[da...]]

I am getting there, though and being on this board has given me new drive. I am just about to check into a 5.00 pm AA meeting now - be right back.

 

Stay strong. Be positive. Have hope. We are here for you!

[[Ba...]]

I am getting there, though and being on this board has given me new drive. I am just about to check into a 5.00 pm AA meeting now - be right back.

 

Stay strong. Be positive. Have hope. We are here for you!

 

Thank you, darkarchon, it's good to be reminded that I am not as alone as my mind would have me think I am.

[[Ba...]]

Hello Everyone,

 

It's a Tuesday, and here's my roundup of recent developments or otherwise.

 

1. F.A.O. Bob7 in particular: I have ordered the .001 scale, and it will be with me tomorrow. I have also ordered a pill mill to grind my meds and a spatula set. I was about to order some gel caps but was unsure which size would be appropriate, so I held on that score. Your advice will be greatly appreciated. As soon as I have the scale, I will provide you with the weights of one and ten of my pills to allow you to do your magic. Thanks

 

So, here is a general summary of where I am at. I have managed to maintain a daily dose of 10mg for nearly a week now. Yesterday my delivery of 120 x 10 mg tablets arrived, so I now have a substantial stash of meds, and hopefully, this will be all I need to reduce successfully and finally get off.

 

I spent this morning on the telephone to various services purporting to assist with dependency issues. Still, I found it was like chasing my tail, and the frustration was such that I believe it is better to dispense with the hope that any external agency can help apart from posting here.

 

In addition, I am planning to begin a recovery diary in the relevant section. Writing is helpful on  a number of levels. It is excellent exercise for the mind and helps.

 

Also, yesterday, I went for a long walk and did various stretching and gently upper body exercises and found this process to be good for mind, body and soul. I intend to repeat today and sense that by improving physical fitness, I will be better prepared to deal with what may, or may not be, about to hit me.

 

I am continuing to visit my friend who is dying from Cancer. I have not mentioned my issues to her and go to her house to help, and it is good for gaining perspective, distraction and achieving a general sense of being of some use to someone. I despise the feeling of uslessness this dependency has filled me with. Yesterday, in addition to making my poor friend some supper, we listened to a meditation on YouTube together, and it was helpful for both of us. She is a retired nurse and is not very good at turning off having spent a lifetime on a ward looking out for others. It is an interesting challenge trying to facilitate her ability to switch off for 20 minutes.

 

The fact I did so much exercise yesterday, combined with the fresh air exposure, meant I slept well. For the first night in a week I did not depend on Nytol, although I took some Melatonin. I want to stay away from diphenhydramine hydrochloride products at all costs as they seem to give me hangover symptoms and are not useful.  Exercise seems to be the best way of making myself tired and preparing me for sleep - I must stay away from pills and potions.

 

I am eating well currently, and my appetite seems to have returned to somewhere near "normal" - if I can remember what that is/was.

 

I propose remaining at 10mg a day for the next week or so to see what happens. I am taking 5mg in the morning and 5mg at night.

 

I will wait to see what Bob recommends in any taper I follow. Now that I have approximately 220 x 10 mg tablets which feels like an adequate supply for a lengthy regime I no longer feel the need to rush. Being in a hurry has set me back a total of four times so far, so this time I will do as suggested whilst listening to my body.

 

I intend to focus on achieving maximum physical fitness. I don't mean I am about to start training for Iron Man events, just that I intend to walk 5-10 miles a day and do as much stretching and upper bodywork as is comfortable. I can't pretend I am dying to get out there and do this - the thought of leaving my home is becoming increasingly scary, and I am developing agoraphobia and fear of my neighbours etc. I get uneasy around small talk, and the general populace as my head is beginning to play games with me. My confidence in all activities has nosedived.

 

I am sure that forcing myself out to walk every day is the best remedy for this. I am also confident that hoping someone on the other end of the phone working for any so-called agency dealing with addiction is entirely counter-productive. It just promotes frustration and leads me into the cycle of negative thinking.

 

I have also decided to reduce my exposure to 12 Step groups for the time being. I am convinced the 12 Step approach is of enormous value and do not wish to denigrate but I must accept that my desperation has led to an over-dependence on attending meetings. Meetings don't get me well - I get myself well by working a programme, staying strong, maintaining and developing physical fitness, avoiding stress, helping others and trying to develop my faith. I am increasingly open to the idea that temporal solutions can only be effective when combined with some kind of embracing of matters spiritual. I have a God of my understanding most of the time and I must continue to work to develop this channel.

 

So, there it is. Now it's time to get outside and start pounding the pavement again. I combine walking with going up and down as many stairs as I can along the way to add variety and increase my cardio.

 

Thanks for reading - all comments are so welcome. It is wonderful returning to the laptop to see that I have been read andany contact by return is both peerless and priceless. I am so happy to have found this site.

 

 

Cheers

 

Bancha. 

[[Pa...]]

Wow, reading your post makes me feel happy Bancha, I see so much good in your decisions, your actions and your attitude, I'm very impressed with you. 

 

I can't disagree with or caution you about anything you've just written, you're spot on the money in everything you've decided and accepted.  I look forward to reading your progress log and watching your journey and most of all, your recovery. 

 

 

[[sl...]]

Yay! I'm just echoing Pamster; what a great update and I am really impressed by your progress. I'm glad you're looking into a progress log or buddie blog; I prefer the latter myself as it allows other buddies to respond to my posts. You have an incredible penchant for writing, and I look forward to whatever form you choose.

 

Maximum physical fitness! I suggest being gentle with yourself; an injury might really dampen your mood. Walking and stairs sound relatively safe, but I know some of us can have a tendency to over do things. I ran 1.25 miles yesterday for the second time in many years, and like yourself I slept like much better last night than usual. I hope you continue to find a joyful rhythm with your pavement pounding!

 

I look forward to hearing more about your journey Bancha. I'm so glad you're here with us. 

 

 

[[je...]]

I just want to wish you all the best for your taper. I'm also using Bob's method of tapering and if you follow the videos it is very easy to do it. I am eternally grateful for Bob for taking the time to set up the site.

 

Regarding the size of the capsules. I've started on the 000 as they are the larger ones and they hold 0.4mg. I recently ordered the 00 ones as I'm going lower in my dose and believe I'll need a smaller capsule. I'm not sure how much weight it holds as the website doesn't say and I haven't weighed it. It might be useful to know whether you'll need both for the taper in the future. Unfortunately I can't tell you because I'm on Klonopin and the tablet sizes are different (I'm not familiar with yours).

 

If someone can work out a taper math plan on the sheet for you you'll know what size you'll need right now.

 

Good luck!.

[[...]]

Thank you jelly baby for recommending the capsule sizes for him.  I agree with you. 

[[Ba...]]

Well, well - how nice it was to come home to such fulsome praise from you guys. Thanks for the virtual patting on my back; my fragile little brain loves the contact. Slownsteady, I had not realised the distinction between a blog and a progress log. I think the feedback is all part of the deal, and reading replies can be so touching. It is weird and wonderful to be making friends through the medium of characters on a screen. I am a bit of a chatterbox and am lazy when it comes to keyboards, so I really value the interaction. Looking back to see if you were looking back at me as the song goes - despite not being tanned nor lovely or living anywhere near Ipanema. Nevertheless, I am fortunate in having the second-longest stretch of beach in Europe, just 50 metres from my front door. Somerset is short on swaying palms, but there's bags of sand - even if it is generally freezing outside at the moment.

 

As the weather has been pretty grotty all day, cloud reduced my walking aspirations on account of rain stopping play. It was interesting, though, as when I did venture out earlier, I bumped into a neighbour who invited me into his house for tea and a chat. He has chronic pain, yet he has decided not to use any pain relief and claims that he has learned to deal with it. He has a big bottle of Oramorf (a morphine compound dished out here in the UK) on a loudspeaker in his sitting room. He says he keeps it there to remind him not to take it.

 

This is quite an interesting, counter-intuitive approach.

 

I used the opportunity to tell him about my Valium addiction and my plans to finally go through the necessary steps to rid my body of it. He was very supportive and has told me that I can pop in to visit him whenever I need a chat. This is a bit of a gift as I get very lonely and spend far too much time glued to my screen. He cannot negotiate my stairs, so he cannot make it round to me, but I can get to his. Knowing that there's a welcome is heartening.

 

In truth, I had been avoiding this character as I have been so trapped in my head I have been getting nervous about social contact. It was good to 'fess up and find someone who is not judgemental. He is a nice guy and has lived a varied and interesting life; he also has two dogs which keep him busy.

 

Interestingly, he suffers crippling physical pain, yet he is out rain or shine a minimum of twice a day to hobble along with a walking stick in one hand and a leash with two white Staffies pulling him along in the other. He is a true manifestation of mind over matter. There is a lot to be learned from Paul.

 

I had a thought today that this Benzo recovery business is almost akin to reliving adolescence. I am a self-obsessed teenager trapped in the body of a 55-year-old man. My thoughts are so busy playing mind-reader, worrying about what people think of me and how I am being judged. The truth is that most people, with or without Benzos, are so wrapped up in themselves they have no time to waste judging boring old me.

 

Unlike being a young person, I need to accept that I have nothing to prove. As the aphorism goes, those that matter don't mind, and those that mind don't matter.

 

On an even brighter note,  I got phone calls from not just one but both daughters. It means so much that my art student called me for advice, and my Civil Engineer followed up a little later, saying hello. My 16-year-old son is still hiding in his silo and is not responding to texts nor voicemails, but who wants to chat to their dad at that age? Unless that is, there is a requirement for funding, transport or both. He seems happy enough and is, I am assured, working hard for his summer exams. Bless his cotton socks.

 

 

So, to recovery and beyond......I wonder how long it will be before I start moaning again. I suspect the first cut

might not be the deepest. I'm going to give this 10mg ride a few more days before allowing the itch to get moving downward to lead me in my decisions. Stability, stability, stability......

 

Thanks, guys, it's great reading your replies, and I am slowly expanding the horizons of reading your posts. There is much wisdom in this place.

 

I am doing my best to circumvent the "my Benzo hell" contributions - the success stories are so much more nourishing for me at the moment. Hopefully, as I get stronger, I, too, can be available to offer a leg-up to those who are suffering.

 

I shall try to keep my misery to a minimum by accentuating the positive, eliminating the negative and trying not to live with Mr In-Between.

 

Time to eat some tasty food - I am ravenous!

 

 

Bancha 

 

ps, just pressed send and saw the lovely sight of jelly baby and Bob 7 tuning in. Thanks for the good wishes JB, I shall order the 000 as recommended - and now begin reading your story. It's bloody good this, innit?