Someone found something, Jordan Peterson's family

[[...]]

Next week. The cost is €200 per session. They say it usually takes 3-7 sessions in a row for the reboot. I booked only one for trial. If it works out I may work out a plan for the reboot with them.

 

Excellent news. Keep us posted, pacenik!

Can't wait to hear about your experience!

 

Best of luck.

[[Ha...]]

The only thing with xenon as far as I can find, is it's a 5-HT3 antagonist, the same as SSRI's. I'm not sure how this would effect us

[Guest [pa...]]

SSRI mode of action is upon serotonin transporter, their direct effects upon receptors are incidental. Setrons are 5-HT3 antagonists, they are all antiemetic drugs. That is a good thing in case of xenon, that means that unlike other anesthetics it won't make you throw up upon waking up.

[[ra...]]

Hey all,

 

I am still really sick.  Just came back for a look.  I thought I posted this about Xenon:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20048760/

(full article in free pdf link on right)

 

It works glutamate reception in a way the "old me" would have understood and explained to the rest of you in a few hours.  Now I cannot get past the first paragraph.  Hoping for a break.

 

Ramcon1

[[...]]

Hey all,

 

I am still really sick.  Just came back for a look.  I thought I posted this about Xenon:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20048760/

(full article in free pdf link on right)

 

It works glutamate reception in a way the "old me" would have understood and explained to the rest of you in a few hours.  Now I cannot get past the first paragraph.  Hoping for a break.

 

Ramcon1

 

Ramcon - I know you’ve said on several occasions that kindling is driven by AMPA glutamate receptors. I’ve read this paper and multiple others that address the ‘desensitization’ effect that xenon has on the AMPA glutamate receptors.

 

Various clinics that offer xenon suggest that multiple sessions of xenon - hearing anywhere from 3-10, can basically reset these receptors and break the vicious cycle of chronic, low level excititoxicity. I posted a study earlier that seems to confirm this ability.

 

So... alleviating chronic excitotoxicity of glutamate receptors... desensitizing AMPA receptors... addressing anxiety, depression, and pain according to other studies and clinic accounts... it seems pretty promising for what ails us, no? Isn’t desensitizating our overly-sensitized AMPA receptors exactly what we need to do?

 

I don’t know about you, but I am anxiously awaiting to hear how things go with pacenik this week, and those that follow him... anyway, I’m sorry you’re still feeling unwell. I hope you start feeling better soon, friend. 

[[Be...]]

ramcon, are you having cognitive problems that you couldn't get past the first paragraph of article?

[[Fo...]]

Foreseason,

 

I like your thinking in terms of the self treatment.

Could be a viable option for those that are to unwell to travel.

 

Have you thoughts further of how you would do yourself? And have you any resources to share?

 

Where are you based that you can get access to xenon gas?

 

I’m in the United States and as far as I can tell there are no clinics in the states providing xenon treatment.  So it looks like I would have to travel overseas somewhere which would be a whole ordeal.  But One I definitely would consider if others reported success with the treatment. 

 

That being said, the treatment appears to be xenon mixed with oxygen for like 5-10 minutes I believe.  Not too complicated.  And considering there’s plenty of YouTube videos of people inhaling straight xenon just to lower their voice for fun, I feel an intelligent responsible person could find a way to safely administer xenon to themselves.  As safe as any of this type of experimental treatment can be that is

 

But in terms of specifics I haven’t gotten that far.  Just chewing the fat you could say

 

I look forward to hearing how it goes for those who have easier access to these clinics. 

 

On a side note.  This study in particular really caught my eye.  Xenon treatment for panic attacks had anti panic effects lasting for 6 months. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5470223/

 

[[Ch...]]

Foreseason,

 

Please if your able, dive more into the specifics of how to do a at home treatment. Imagine so many would be unable to travel.

 

The information you provided was very helpful,

 

Thank you.

[[...]]

On a side note.  This study in particular really caught my eye.  Xenon treatment for panic attacks had anti panic effects lasting for 6 months. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5470223/

 

And it’s only ‘6 months’ because that’s how long the study lasted. The last time they checked them was 180 days later... could go well beyond! (Assuming avoidance of new stresses and such) Again, good indication of its ability to produce long term changes in AMPA well beyond initial treatment!

[[Fo...]]

Foreseason,

 

Please if your able, dive more into the specifics of how to do a at home treatment. Imagine so many would be unable to travel.

 

The information you provided was very helpful,

 

Thank you.

 

I don’t really have specifics at the moment. . I’m just speaking hypothetically.  All I know is you can buy tanks of medical grade xenon, although they are expensive.  And there’s videos of people on YouTube inhaling xenon to lower their voice. 

 

 

The studies seem to use around a 30/70 xenon/oxygen ratio.  For now I’m going to wait for some first hand reports that the treatment is effective before I do anything crazy. 

 

I’m also curious if this is a treatment that could be beneficial while tapering or if it’s only applicable once you are completely off.

[[ra...]]

Yes, cognitive problems keeping me from comprehending the article.  Thanks for the link to the other one.

 

Yes, I think xenon could be really helpful.

 

Yes, I think there would be an easy DIY (cognition so bad, I kept thinking it was DYI and could not get it straight until I googled it.  Sigh)

 

What is pacenick getting?  I hope it is not flumazenil.  So many people tried that without getting any benefit.  I do not know anyone that tried Ibogaine, and I do not know anyone that tried xenon.  If I can get a few teaspoons back, I am going to take a shot at DIY xenon.

 

ramcon1

[[Fo...]]

Here is the administration protocol from the panic disorder study. 

 

Xenon administration

 

Administration of xenon was performed through inhalation of xenon–oxygen mixtures that were escalated from 15%/85% to 30%/70% with titration increments of 5% per session. Each patient in the study underwent between 6 and 7 treatments with xenon–oxygen mixture. The first three sessions were carried out daily and from session 4 onward—every other day. The selected dosing regime and the composition of the gas mixtures were based on the historical evidence of safety of subanesthetic use of xenon in imaging [40–42].

 

Medical grade xenon (“medksenon”®, 99.9999%, manufacturer: Atommedcenter, Moscow, Russia) and medical grade oxygen in separate containers were admixed. Mixing and administration of gases in preset concentration and volume was accomplished with the use of the medical device MAGi-AMTS1, which enables the operator to adjust the concentration of xenon in the gas mixture, and which contains the electronic flow meter with a software module that allows for such adjustments. Administration of xenon–oxygen mixture to the patient was carried out via a face mask. Patients were asked to slowly inhale, holding breath for 5–10 s; exhale into the loop and after 35–40 s exhale outside the contour and breath in the new portion of gas mixture. Xenon inhalation lasted from 2.5 to 4 min, and the xenon consumption was capped at 3.0 L per procedure. The patients were assessed subjectively by the provider, while the vital signs (pulse, blood pressure, oxygen saturation) were continuously monitored.

[[Be...]]

Ramcon, sorry about your cog problems.  I can understand that for sure.  I saw on the news tonight about using pure oxygen in a chamber to help with CTE.  It helped a pro football player who had a bunch of concussions.  He said it's helping him. 

[[ra...]]

I was thinking out this and all y'all last night when I was not sleeping.  I have not been able to read the articles yet.  Until I saw Foreason's post, I was thinking a 70% or higher concentration of oxygen would be a bad idea.  Pure oxygen for a long time can be dangerous.  Normal air is about 20%.  So I was thinking 20% oxygen 30% xenon and 50% nitrogen.  But then I read in Foreason's post that the protocol only lasts a few minutes.  Even pure oxygen for a few minutes is not harmful at all (just stay away from fire ;-)

 

Ok, plan 6942. I will taper in the next few months.  Try to tolerate a few supplements to help with malnutrition and histamine.  Somewhere in there I will read and comprehend the papers, and when I am just a few teaspoons better, I will find an anesthesiologist, buy gas, and give it a shot.

 

I will follow this thread to see if anyone makes it "there" before me.

 

Good luck buddies,

 

ramcon1

[[Fo...]]

I was thinking out this and all y'all last night when I was not sleeping.  I have not been able to read the articles yet.  Until I saw Foreason's post, I was thinking a 70% or higher concentration of oxygen would be a bad idea.  Pure oxygen for a long time can be dangerous.  Normal air is about 20%.  So I was thinking 20% oxygen 30% xenon and 50% nitrogen.  But then I read in Foreason's post that the protocol only lasts a few minutes.  Even pure oxygen for a few minutes is not harmful at all (just stay away from fire ;-)

 

Ok, plan 6942. I will taper in the next few months.  Try to tolerate a few supplements to help with malnutrition and histamine.  Somewhere in there I will read and comprehend the papers, and when I am just a few teaspoons better, I will find an anesthesiologist, buy gas, and give it a shot.

 

I will follow this thread to see if anyone makes it "there" before me.

 

Good luck buddies,

 

ramcon1

 

Do you think xenon treatment could be beneficial during tapering or only once completely off?

[[Aj...]]

Interesting stuff.

 

My Neuro is happy to do flumazenil if I want to.

 

What are ppls thoughts on it is still tapering and DP sensitised  everything causes horrific symptoms...

 

Interesting it might help muscle tension as my body is literally crushing itself.

Prob is when take dose it all goes so weak it is floppy but stuck in some areas.

 

Can ppl comment on the quality of the muscle tension and release they have?

[[ra...]]

Foreason,

 

Before I respond, I will qualify this as "an educated guess."  I do not know.  I cannot even read the papers.

 

Background:  I do not buy the concept of "reset."  Never have.  Unless you put it in the strict context of, "I had normal glutamate transmission and reception before I took benzos/zdrugs/alcohol/insert any med that damages the glutamatergic system.  I took benzos/any-med.  It damaged my glutamatergic system.  And now this treatment will 'reset' it to where it was before." 

 

I was born broken, as are many.  I was born with comorbid insomnia. I was never healthier than when lorazepam gave me 8 blissful hours of sleep.  Then, of course, everything went to hell in a hand-basket.

 

I look at any given treatment based on my premise that our disease is one of glutamate receptor damage; too many receptors, too much current thru them.  I think that those with insomnia or anxiety who were "helped" by benzos probably had a dysfunctional glutamatergic system to begin with, as do many other diseases from IBS to PTSD to epilepsy to autism.  So I look at a treatment and ask, "could it reduce the number of and current flow thru glutamate receptors?"  If the answer is "yes." then it is worth considering. 

 

Will it work?  I have no idea, but unless it fits my model of a cure to our disease, I do not even consider it.

 

Now my opinion on your direct question.  I would not do it until 99% of benzos were out of my system, so jump day plus 4 half lives of whatever you are tapering.  Valium has a long half life, and I remember the last time I jumped, I felt fine fine fine for about 3 weeks.

Then holy crap.  So I personally am going to wait until 3 weeks after I jump. 

 

My reasoning is only this: why would I take something to correct my glutamatergic system while an agent that is breaking it is still in my system?  Maybe it could facilitate a cold turkey, like NAD+ is supposed to.  I do not know, and I do not know of any experiments or that it is used anywhere in a clinical setting.  NAD+ had a good paper, a few anecdotes, and it is used in many clinics.  Xenon MIGHT be used in Serbia.  If we start to hear more, I might rethink this, but right now, that is my educated guess.

 

Hope that helped at all.

 

Ramcon1

[[ra...]]

Flumazenil has been kicked around here for years.  If that were the cure, we'd all be cured.  I do not know one person who got long-term relief from it.

[Guest [pa...]]

Interesting stuff.

 

My Neuro is happy to do flumazenil if I want to.

 

What are ppls thoughts on it if still tapering and DP sensitised  everything causes horrific symptoms...

 

Interesting it might help muscle tension as my body is literally crushing itself.

Prob is when take dose it all goes so weak it is floppy but stuck in some areas.

 

Can ppl comment on the quality of the muscle tension and release they have?

You can't use flumazenil while still on benzos. It would induce severe withdrawal reaction. You have to be off for quite some time. Also, flumazenil works only on GABAA receptors, it does nothing for glutamatergic system. In fact, with overly active glutamatergic system, my personal experience is that as soon as flumazenil wears off, the symptoms become worse. It's as if body in excitoxic shock is reacting to any increase in GABAergic signalling with overpowering glutamatergic signalling.

 

 

Flumazenil has been kicked around here for years.  If that were the cure, we'd all be cured.  I do not know one person who got long-term relief from it.

There are a couple of people on the forum who got long-term relief from it. Flumazenil definitively works to repair GABAA receptors, but doesn't do anything for glutamate. That's why I think very, very slow taper is of utmost importance. When you are in a state of excitoxicity (like from cold-turkey) it would appear that body tends to react severly to any increase of GABAergic signaling (which is probably why sometimes reinstatement leads to paradoxical reaction and why usually higher dose of benzo is required to successfully reinstate). So before doing flumazenil, you first have to take care of glutamatergic system. I think if I tried flumazenil before my setback it would've worked like it did for wolfie011. But since I tried it in this cold-turkey like state it worked for a day, then tommorow symptoms came back more strongly. But I still think there's a great potential in flumazenil. While it lasts it's almost like magic. If they made flumazenil XR tablets that would really be something.

[[Ma...]]

Interesting stuff.

 

My Neuro is happy to do flumazenil if I want to.

 

What are ppls thoughts on it if still tapering and DP sensitised  everything causes horrific symptoms...

 

Interesting it might help muscle tension as my body is literally crushing itself.

Prob is when take dose it all goes so weak it is floppy but stuck in some areas.

 

Can ppl comment on the quality of the muscle tension and release they have?

You can't use flumazenil while still on benzos. It would induce severe withdrawal reaction. You have to be off for quite some time. Also, flumazenil works only on GABAA receptors, it does nothing for glutamatergic system. In fact, with overly active glutamatergic system, my personal experience is that as soon as flumazenil wears off, the symptoms become worse. It's as if body in excitoxic shock is reacting to any increase in GABAergic signalling with overpowering glutamatergic signalling.

 

 

Flumazenil has been kicked around here for years.  If that were the cure, we'd all be cured.  I do not know one person who got long-term relief from it.

There are a couple of people on the forum who got long-term relief from it. Flumazenil definitively works to repair GABAA receptors, but doesn't do anything for glutamate. That's why I think very, very slow taper is of utmost importance. When you are in a state of excitoxicity (like from cold-turkey) it would appear that body tends to react severly to any increase of GABAergic signaling (which is probably why sometimes reinstatement leads to paradoxical reaction and why usually higher dose of benzo is required to successfully reinstate). So before doing flumazenil, you first have to take care of glutamatergic system. I think if I tried flumazenil before my setback it would've worked like it did for wolfie011. But since I tried it in this cold-turkey like state it worked for a day, then tommorow symptoms came back more strongly. But I still think there's a great potential in flumazenil. While it lasts it's almost like magic. If they made flumazenil XR tablets that would really be something.

 

This is too much speculation about GABA and glutamate without any scientific support. There is no evidence that doing anything to glutamate receptors with memantine, Xenon, etc, will help with benzo withdrawal. There is no evidence for flumanezil either. By evidence I mean clinical trials.  Tapering is currently the only approach.

[[ra...]]

Maugham,

 

You have basically quoted (almost) the benzobuddy mantra.  "Get clean, stay clean and eventually you will get better."  That is probably true.  There is also no conclusive proof that one single thing that will shorten the duration of recovery.  I will get to that in a moment.  But the idea that there is no proof that we have GABA and glutamate receptor damage is absolute preposterous.  The only thing on which experts disagree is which receptor damage, GABA or glutamate, is the dominant factor in benzo damage, or if it varies from individual to individual, and GABA or glutamate is more common from case to case.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, but if it is an opinion, please qualify it as such, as I did below, "This is an educated guess."  I do not mean to insult you at all, but your idea that we do not know that benzo damage is GABA and glutamate receptor damage is simply not true.

 

Benzos activate our GABA receptors.  In response, they release GABA, and through various means, mostly the release of negative ions (anions) inhibit transmission.  Transmission of what?  Glutamate, and its receptor release of positive ions (cations).  In response to this band-aid, in the short term, we get the benefit of a benzo, we calm down, fall asleep, our seizure stops, whatever we took the benzo for happens.  But in the long term, two things happen.  The body is fooled into thinking it needs fewer GABA receptors and more glutamate receptors, and on average the current of anions decreases and cations increase.  None of this is speculation on my part.  This much we know is true.  If you do not accept this, spend some time on google like the rest of us have and read a few of the papers on benzo experiments.

 

I argue, and I use the word argue to mean, "present the case," that those who are sickest longest are "glutamate receptor damage dominant," because it both my own personal experience, what I have observed in the posts of others, and it makes logical sense. The body is designed to rebuild.  If ones GABAergic system is downregulated, the body is primed to rebuild it.  I believe, I cannot prove but it has been my experience and it makes sense, that those who are sick for 6-18 months and then feel fine fine fine, had almost all GABA downregulation.  Their bodies rebuilt, and they are healed.  But getting the body to downregulate an upregulated system is an unnatural process.  All of those with diseases of an overactive glutamate system are sick for life, epilepsy, IBS, autism, etc.  Then there is us, those in protracted benzo withdrawal.  I have drawn the conclusion that the over expression and overactivity of glutamate is why we are still sick.  Can I prove it? No.  Am I certain?  Yes, because as I said, I can feel it in myself, I have observed it in others, and it makes logical sense.

 

Now to the point of, "Tapering is the only approach."  For the past year or so, those of us posting on Chewing the Fat have been looking for something to successfully treat protracted benzo withdrawal.  A half dozen pretty good ideas have been kicked around, and presented research papers that support those ideas.  I agree with some, I disagree with some, I have no idea about others, but this is the place to "kick around" or "brainstorm" those ideas.  It is free discussion that facilitates our learning from each other.  I will stand behind anyone's right to present any idea he wishes, except those who say we should stop kicking around ideas.

 

If you don't want to kick around ideas, don't post here.

 

Is there a cure for protracted benzo withdrawal?  Not yet.  Does that mean we should stop trying?  Over my dead body.  To you my buddy, and to all reading, I will remind you of three things:

 

1.  There was once a man who decided we should close the patent office because everything worthwhile that could be invented had been invented already.  Thankfully, that idea was dismissed.

 

2.  There is a quote about the urgency of action often attributed to the late John Lewis, but when he said it he knew it is actually much older.  It has variations, but the gist is, "If not us, then who?  If not now, then when?"

 

So finally . . .

3.  It stands to reason that if there is something, benzos, antidepressants, or even trauma, that through a form of "chemical neuroplasticity" can shift our glutamatergic (and GABAergic) systems to dysfunction, then it stands to reason there should be something that can shift it to a more healthy neurotypical state.  We just have not found it.  Yet.

 

Remember, no one is "forcing you" to accept or even read these ideas.  All I am asking is that you or anyone else of similar thinking please do not post that we are wasting our time or that it is impossible.  I am asking politely, and I think it is a reasonable request.

 

Thank you.

 

Ramcon1 

[[Ha...]]

Maugham,

 

You have basically quoted (almost) the benzobuddy mantra.  "Get clean, stay clean and eventually you will get better."  That is probably true.  There is also no conclusive proof that one single thing that will shorten the duration of recovery.  I will get to that in a moment.  But the idea that there is no proof that we have GABA and glutamate receptor damage is absolute preposterous.  The only thing on which experts disagree is which receptor damage, GABA or glutamate, is the dominant factor in benzo damage, or if it varies from individual to individual, and GABA or glutamate is more common from case to case.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, but if it is an opinion, please qualify it as such, as I did below, "This is an educated guess."  I do not mean to insult you at all, but your idea that we do not know that benzo damage is GABA and glutamate receptor damage is simply not true.

 

Benzos activate our GABA receptors.  In response, they release GABA, and through various means, mostly the release of negative ions (anions) inhibit transmission.  Transmission of what?  Glutamate, and its receptor release of positive ions (cations).  In response to this band-aid, in the short term, we get the benefit of a benzo, we calm down, fall asleep, our seizure stops, whatever we took the benzo for happens.  But in the long term, two things happen.  The body is fooled into thinking it needs fewer GABA receptors and more glutamate receptors, and on average the current of anions decreases and cations increase.  None of this is speculation on my part.  This much we know is true.  If you do not accept this, spend some time on google like the rest of us have and read a few of the papers on benzo experiments.

 

I argue, and I use the word argue to mean, "present the case," that those who are sickest longest are "glutamate receptor damage dominant," because it both my own personal experience, what I have observed in the posts of others, and it makes logical sense. The body is designed to rebuild.  If ones GABAergic system is downregulated, the body is primed to rebuild it.  I believe, I cannot prove but it has been my experience and it makes sense, that those who are sick for 6-18 months and then feel fine fine fine, had almost all GABA downregulation.  Their bodies rebuilt, and they are healed.  But getting the body to downregulate an upregulated system is an unnatural process.  All of those with diseases of an overactive glutamate system are sick for life, epilepsy, IBS, autism, etc.  Then there is us, those in protracted benzo withdrawal.  I have drawn the conclusion that the over expression and overactivity of glutamate is why we are still sick.  Can I prove it? No.  Am I certain?  Yes, because as I said, I can feel it in myself, I have observed it in others, and it makes logical sense.

 

Now to the point of, "Tapering is the only approach."  For the past year or so, those of us posting on Chewing the Fat have been looking for something to successfully treat protracted benzo withdrawal.  A half dozen pretty good ideas have been kicked around, and presented research papers that support those ideas.  I agree with some, I disagree with some, I have no idea about others, but this is the place to "kick around" or "brainstorm" those ideas.  It is free discussion that facilitates our learning from each other.  I will stand behind anyone's right to present any idea he wishes, except those who say we should stop kicking around ideas.

 

If you don't want to kick around ideas, don't post here.

 

Is there a cure for protracted benzo withdrawal?  Not yet.  Does that mean we should stop trying?  Over my dead body.  To you my buddy, and to all reading, I will remind you of three things:

 

1.  There was once a man who decided we should close the patent office because everything worthwhile that could be invented had been invented already.  Thankfully, that idea was dismissed.

 

2.  There is a quote about the urgency of action often attributed to the late John Lewis, but when he said it he knew it is actually much older.  It has variations, but the gist is, "If not us, then who?  If not now, then when?"

 

So finally . . .

3.  It stands to reason that if there is something, benzos, antidepressants, or even trauma, that through a form of "chemical neuroplasticity" can shift our glutamatergic (and GABAergic) systems to dysfunction, then it stands to reason there should be something that can shift it to a more healthy neurotypical state.  We just have not found it.  Yet.

 

Remember, no one is "forcing you" to accept or even read these ideas.  All I am asking is that you or anyone else of similar thinking please do not post that we are wasting our time or that it is impossible.  I am asking politely, and I think it is a reasonable request.

 

Thank you.

 

Ramcon1

 

Well said. Sounds like you are feeling a little better.

[[Tr...]]

Ramcon1, Pacenik and Maugham1. Because English is not my mother tongue, I can’t discuss at your level. But have I understood correctly?

 

You can't use flumazenil while still on Benzo. And  you have to be off for quite some time.

 

And I remember an article where they had written about half-life. And I found this; "Flumazenil is extensively distributed in the extravascular space with an initial distribution half-life of 4-11 minutes and a terminal half-life of 40 - 80 minutes."

 

What do you think about this? Thanks! 

 

I had problem to send a link - effectiveness of flumazenil - ScienceDirect.com

[Guest [pa...]]

You can't use flumazenil while still on Benzo. And  you have to be off for quite some time.

Yes because flumazenil displaces benzos from their binding sites precipitating a severe withdrawal reaction if there are still benzos in blood.

And yes, flumazenil has extremely short half-life (and low oral bioavailability), which is why it's so hard to administer it effectively.

[[ra...]]

Having a mare,

 

I am just lucky that even at 50% I can hold my own.  Not out of the woods yet.

 

Pacenik,

 

You seem to know your stuff.  Thanks for sharing.  Somewhere, I missed what exactly it is you are going to try, and why? Flumazenil?  Xenon?  Both?  Whatever it is, I wish you luck.

 

Ramcon1