The use of SAMe and other serotonergic means to alter glutamate reception

[[Th...]]

Hey Ramcon, what do you think about NAC?

[[Th...]]

I’m just shooting in the dark but you mentioned dosing Zoloft in a homeopathic manner. How about using the homeopathic remedy for Zoloft? A homeopath can make it and I would assume it would be a safer alternative to try first.

[[Tr...]]

So for those of us who are also suffering Antidepressant WD and can't take an AD, or this was originally sparked by AD withdrawal, and benzos mitigated some of the symptoms from glutamergic hyperactivity, are we essentially screwed?

 

I'm also interested in how NAC potentially plays into this.

[[ra...]]

Buddies,

 

Short(ish) answers to tough questions.

 

Easy ones first.  I personally did not do well with NAC.  NAC is basically biologically active cysteine, and cysteine is the limiting amino in your body's production of glutathione.  I did not do well with glutathione, but I know many who benefited.  Usually, boosting glutathione is a good thing for reasons that go beyond the scope of this thread.  I will say that if you can tolerate NAC or liposomal glutathione (the only ways to really increase your glutathione) you need to take them on an empty stomach for them to work.

 

American "homeopathy," the idea that you can take the "essence" of some poison and dilute it 100 times and it will leave a "signature" in water from which you will get some kind of benefit is complete nonsense.  I promise you on whatever God to whom you pray that statement is true, and if anyone tells you otherwise don't believe anything he says after that.  A bigger lie has never been told.

 

Now REAL homeopathy, homeo means similar to or self, pathy means disease, the idea that you introduce a small or altered amount of something that actually makes you a little "sick," but you body responds to it and a diseased state improves or is avoided, that is real.  That is the way a vaccine works.  That is how many allergies are treated.

 

So what do I mean by homeopathically using a serotonergic agent.  We know that certain glutamate receptors, especially NMDA are colocated with serotonin receptors.  Almost everyone who takes Zoloft or any SSRI for its antidepressant properties gets revved up before they calm down.  That is why.  If you take SAMe and the world glows a bit, that is why.  Those agents are, some how, increasing your synaptic glutamate, and when those very powerful NMDA glutamate receptors feel it, uh oh.  Zoloft/sertraline and SAMe do this by inhibiting the very important Excitory Amino Acid Transporters (EAAT) holding glutamate in the synapse longer.  I am not sure if other serotonergic agents manipulate EAAT that way, but they all seem to rev people up before they calm down.

 

The idea of homeopathic application of Zoloft/sertraline or SAMe is, if a lot of what we feel is too much glutamate reception, then lets introduce juuuuuuuuuuuuuuust a little bit of serotonin via sertraline or SAMe and our NMDA receptors will respond be decreasing in number and current flow.  Thus homeopathically applying sertraline or SAMe.  This is proven in rats with sertraline.  It is hypothetical for humans with either sertraline or SAMe, and equally important, even if it works, and we DO reduce the number and current flow thru NMDA, will that cure us?

 

That, my friends, is the million dollar question, and I do not have the million dollar answer, but I am working on it.

 

In the meantime, that is my own personal plan.  I was off benzos for 3 1/2 years, alcohol free for the last year, and I just kept getting sicker anyway, and ended up reinstating because I was hysterical 24/7.  I have since learned that at least part of that was from a few failed attempts at quitting tobacco, which BOOSTS EAAT.  With tobacco in my rear view, I am now tapering Valium.  That will take me a few months and then I want to log a few months clean, and I will keep researching during the process.  By then, I should know more about the likelihood of the success of any of this, and what I want to try first.

 

Maybe some of you will give one of these ideas a shot at 1 year clean and let us know what it did or did not do

 

The question of AD withdrawal is complex for sure.  I am 99% sure that it is rare, comes from either coming off very quickly, or worse still, cycling it.  I say 99% sure because I have no proof.  Robert Whitaker of Anatomy of an Epidemic fame believes that most psyche meds are like benzos, when you become dependent, you are screwed.  My life experiences with people I know tell me this is not true, but unlike what I KNOW about NMDA and rats, I have no real proof of that.  Maybe he is right.  I will say that I really do not recommend "cycling" an AD or even SAMe.  There is too much real evidence that NMDA "kindle."  They remember how they were "wrong" in count and current, and cycling serotonergic agents will poke them and poke them, and I just think that is a really bad idea.

 

I hope that helped.

 

Ramcon1

Your personal neuroscientist, reminding you to hang in there, and if you are going thru hell, keep going!

[[Th...]]

Hey Ramcon, I remember reading on a previous post that you had tried lamictal and it didn’t work for you. Doesn’t Lamictal work on inhibiting glutamate?

[[Tr...]]

Thanks, Ramcon! Very informative

 

If one's NMDA is kindled- what is the prognosis? Is this different from GABA/glutamate kindling (other than the fact they aren't in a vacuum and affect eachother?) Could NMDA dysfunction be why some of us feel paradoxical or get setbacks from magnesium?

 

Does anything else (specifically certain meds) boost EAAT?

 

 

[[co...]]

Buddies,

 

Short(ish) answers to tough questions.

 

Easy ones first.  I personally did not do well with NAC.  NAC is basically biologically active cysteine, and cysteine is the limiting amino in your body's production of glutathione.  I did not do well with glutathione, but I know many who benefited.  Usually, boosting glutathione is a good thing for reasons that go beyond the scope of this thread.  I will say that if you can tolerate NAC or liposomal glutathione (the only ways to really increase your glutathione) you need to take them on an empty stomach for them to work.

 

American "homeopathy," the idea that you can take the "essence" of some poison and dilute it 100 times and it will leave a "signature" in water from which you will get some kind of benefit is complete nonsense.  I promise you on whatever God to whom you pray that statement is true, and if anyone tells you otherwise don't believe anything he says after that.  A bigger lie has never been told.

 

Now REAL homeopathy, homeo means similar to or self, pathy means disease, the idea that you introduce a small or altered amount of something that actually makes you a little "sick," but you body responds to it and a diseased state improves or is avoided, that is real.  That is the way a vaccine works.  That is how many allergies are treated.

 

So what do I mean by homeopathically using a serotonergic agent.  We know that certain glutamate receptors, especially NMDA are colocated with serotonin receptors.  Almost everyone who takes Zoloft or any SSRI for its antidepressant properties gets revved up before they calm down.  That is why.  If you take SAMe and the world glows a bit, that is why.  Those agents are, some how, increasing your synaptic glutamate, and when those very powerful NMDA glutamate receptors feel it, uh oh.  Zoloft/sertraline and SAMe do this by inhibiting the very important Excitory Amino Acid Transporters (EAAT) holding glutamate in the synapse longer.  I am not sure if other serotonergic agents manipulate EAAT that way, but they all seem to rev people up before they calm down.

 

The idea of homeopathic application of Zoloft/sertraline or SAMe is, if a lot of what we feel is too much glutamate reception, then lets introduce juuuuuuuuuuuuuuust a little bit of serotonin via sertraline or SAMe and our NMDA receptors will respond be decreasing in number and current flow.  Thus homeopathically applying sertraline or SAMe.  This is proven in rats with sertraline.  It is hypothetical for humans with either sertraline or SAMe, and equally important, even if it works, and we DO reduce the number and current flow thru NMDA, will that cure us?

 

That, my friends, is the million dollar question, and I do not have the million dollar answer, but I am working on it.

 

In the meantime, that is my own personal plan.  I was off benzos for 3 1/2 years, alcohol free for the last year, and I just kept getting sicker anyway, and ended up reinstating because I was hysterical 24/7.  I have since learned that at least part of that was from a few failed attempts at quitting tobacco, which BOOSTS EAAT.  With tobacco in my rear view, I am now tapering Valium.  That will take me a few months and then I want to log a few months clean, and I will keep researching during the process.  By then, I should know more about the likelihood of the success of any of this, and what I want to try first.

 

Maybe some of you will give one of these ideas a shot at 1 year clean and let us know what it did or did not do

 

The question of AD withdrawal is complex for sure.  I am 99% sure that it is rare, comes from either coming off very quickly, or worse still, cycling it.  I say 99% sure because I have no proof.  Robert Whitaker of Anatomy of an Epidemic fame believes that most psyche meds are like benzos, when you become dependent, you are screwed.  My life experiences with people I know tell me this is not true, but unlike what I KNOW about NMDA and rats, I have no real proof of that.  Maybe he is right.  I will say that I really do not recommend "cycling" an AD or even SAMe.  There is too much real evidence that NMDA "kindle."  They remember how they were "wrong" in count and current, and cycling serotonergic agents will poke them and poke them, and I just think that is a really bad idea.

 

I hope that helped.

 

Ramcon1

Your personal neuroscientist, reminding you to hang in there, and if you are going thru hell, keep going!

 

So is Tobacco and therefore Nicotine supplements something that absolutely has to dissapear? I've quit cigarettes (I didn't smoke that much) but was unable to quit the nicotine and some tobacco usage. I typically mix a little bit of cigar tobacco with some marijuana at night which I use to help me sleep... and pretty much forget the day for awhile.  I've also used nicorette gum and spray as needed. Which really is only a few times a day. The spray is 1mg and I'm not using the gum at the moment.

 

 

[[ra...]]

Colley,

 

Everyone is different when it comes to tobacco.  I know buddies who healed completely while smoking, and others who did not heal until free of all nicotine.  Those that quit, many said 60-90 days were hell, then the next 6 months they just got better and better.

 

Worth a shot if you are protracted and not working as in at a job.  If you are working, those first 60-90 days could suck a$$.

 

Good luck buddy,

 

Ramcon1

[[ra...]]

All,

 

The use of Zoloft as a tool versus for the rest of your life came up in the Lithium thread as a tangent.

 

This is the first article I ever found that prompted me to look deeper into serotonin:

 

http://birthfaith.org/nutrition/glutamate-and-anxiety

 

She is her own case study, and clearly plans on staying on Zoloft for the rest of her life.  Some say she will one day "pay the piper," because Zoloft will eventually stop working and hurt her like benzos hurt us.  I disagree, but I have no proof.  My dad has been on Zoloft for at least 12 years, and he is 89 and healthy, but again, I do not know what happens to people who stay on Zoloft for 20 years.

 

Ramcon1

[[co...]]

Is it at all possible that her symptoms of Glutamate / Gaba imbalance started or were worsened by taking Zoloft and the subsequent withdrawal? Maybe I missed that part...

[[ra...]]

First TrustinGod,

 

Sorry I missed your questions.  Meds that can harm us in the long run include Beta Lactam Antibiotics, which speed EAAT.  There may be others, but that is a big one.  There are others things that can make us feel bad, like a flu shot, which is a dose of glutamate, or like magnesium, which while it is paradoxical in many (myself included) but these things cannot actually cause a set back. Once you "clear" the flu shot or magnesium, you are no worse off than you were before.  The Beta Lactam's can cause an actual set back  They kindle NMDA.

 

Colley,

 

I do not think so.  Near the beginning of the article, she says she was "I was always a person who was sensitive to MSG and "free glutamic acid in all its forms . . . " I take it from that statement that her illness is hereditary, no caused by a med (iatrogenic).  She had food difficulties and Zoloft took them away.  No idea if that would work for us.  In is currently my "plan C," if SAMe and Lithium fail me after my taper.

 

Ramcon1

[[co...]]

I think the SAM-E is helping... how much I'm not sure because I go in and out of waves (my out is just feeling less like crap) during the day. I boosted to 400mg at night and 200mg in the morning. Today is the first day.

 

If I could get into a position where I was feeling normal for a few days without all of my symptoms present, I could probably make a good attempt at defining what "helping" looks like. I still have Tinnitus daily, the headaches are not as intense, the "thoughts" on some days are less invasive, I seem to have a little more energy. I'm also 3 years off so is this a time thing or a protocol thing... not sure.

 

I'm still holding the Lithium Orotate at 5mg. I'm a little skeptical about jumping to 10mg but I'll give it a shot most likely this week. Will check in again after a couple of weeks at 600mg SAM-E and 10mg LO. 

 

 

 

 

[Guest [pe...]]

Would taurine automatically be converted into glutamate?

[[ra...]]

Perth,

 

Taurine cannot be converted t glutamate.  Taurine is not even really and amino acid, it is a sulfonyl acid that inhibits Ca2+ flow thru glutamate channels in humans.  But when I tried it, the REBOUND WAS HORRIFIC!  It wore off all at once, and I was bouncing off the walls for a day.  That may be why it FEELS like taurine can be converted to glutamate.

 

Trust,

I think, but cannot prove, that anything that artificially boosts EAAT has the potential to kindle NMDA.  Which is why

 

Colley,

 

It MAY be hard to heal while using tobacco. Tobacco is a great booster of EAAT.  Nicotine pales in comparison, so if they work the bugs out of vaping, and/or you like nicotine gum, that switch may help you more (long-term) than SAMe.

 

(Truth, I miss cigs a lot.  It has been over a year since my last cheat, which just made me sick, and I still miss them everyday. If I could vape for 3 years, take SAMe Lithium or rat poison or whatever that would fix my nerves and I could EAT again, I would go back to cigs in a second.  But I think, but cannot prove, tobacco is like a beta lactam antibiotic, speeding along EAAT preventing healing, and kindling NMDA all the time.)

 

Ramcon1

[[co...]]

Perth,

 

Taurine cannot be converted t glutamate.  Taurine is not even really and amino acid, it is a sulfonyl acid that inhibits Ca2+ flow thru glutamate channels in humans.  But when I tried it, the REBOUND WAS HORRIFIC!  It wore off all at once, and I was bouncing off the walls for a day.  That may be why it FEELS like taurine can be converted to glutamate.

 

Trust,

I think, but cannot prove, that anything that artificially boosts EAAT has the potential to kindle NMDA.  Which is why

 

Colley,

 

It MAY be hard to heal while using tobacco. Tobacco is a great booster of EAAT.  Nicotine pales in comparison, so if they work the bugs out of vaping, and/or you like nicotine gum, that switch may help you more (long-term) than SAMe.

 

(Truth, I miss cigs a lot.  It has been over a year since my last cheat, which just made me sick, and I still miss them everyday. If I could vape for 3 years, take SAMe Lithium or rat poison or whatever that would fix my nerves and I could EAT again, I would go back to cigs in a second.  But I think, but cannot prove, tobacco is like a beta lactam antibiotic, speeding along EAAT preventing healing, and kindling NMDA all the time.)

 

Ramcon1

 

I miss cigs too but I don't miss the stink and the overall feeling of yuck that goes along with it. And I'm doing more cardio at the gym so I could never go back. That being said, with addictions you need to fill the gap. So I've kind of filled it with nic supplements like the spray. It works but I'm not sure how good it is for you and / or healing. And it's just keeping me addicted to nicotine. I'm going to move to drop the tobacco at night. It's usually just a pinch or two but that could be enough... never thought the latter would have any impact. I was under the impression that it might just be the nicotine that's delaying the healing; spray / gum included. Then again, there are people that don't smoke at all who are more than 3 years out.

 

It's interesting... I have this product called CRAVE which is supposed to help you quit smoking. It works for alot of people here in Canada I think. But when I took it, it made my headaches worse so I stopped. I was hoping to use it to get me off of nicotine completely. I just don't want to CT anything anymore at this point. Nicotine is the last hurdle to be clean.

[[ra...]]

Colley,

 

I am not a doctor, etc and so forth, but seriously and literally if I were you, I would see what happened if you just drop the tobacco, dip chew, snuff or whatever form you use.  There are real doctors who say "nicotine is a great drug.  It's the delivery system that sucks," meaning tobacco.  The "suck" they are talking about is of course its carcinogenic properties (which are all due to the tobacco cilia hairs pulling radioactive particles from the atmosphere, and no I am not making that up, and yes if they could grow tobacco in green houses with heppavac filters that pulled those particles out of the air no one would get cancer, but don't get me started.  I will not comment on that further)

 

What I will comment on is, if you can get by with gum and spray and slowly taper off nicotine, and I mean like who cares slowly, as long as you never have more on one day than you did the previous day, than that is what I would do.  Nicotine is mostly just a stimulant.  Tobacco does 100 different things, and I mean neurological things, like for example boost serotonin because tobacco, not nicotine, as an MAOI, and 90 other neurological things we don't even know. 

 

I would be very curious to see what would happen to you if you could go 90 days without any form of tobacco.

 

Let us know if you try.

 

Be well buddy,

 

Ramcon1

[[Th...]]

Check out this video related to glutamate

[[co...]]

Colley,

 

I am not a doctor, etc and so forth, but seriously and literally if I were you, I would see what happened if you just drop the tobacco, dip chew, snuff or whatever form you use.  There are real doctors who say "nicotine is a great drug.  It's the delivery system that sucks," meaning tobacco.  The "suck" they are talking about is of course its carcinogenic properties (which are all due to the tobacco cilia hairs pulling radioactive particles from the atmosphere, and no I am not making that up, and yes if they could grow tobacco in green houses with heppavac filters that pulled those particles out of the air no one would get cancer, but don't get me started.  I will not comment on that further)

 

What I will comment on is, if you can get by with gum and spray and slowly taper off nicotine, and I mean like who cares slowly, as long as you never have more on one day than you did the previous day, than that is what I would do.  Nicotine is mostly just a stimulant.  Tobacco does 100 different things, and I mean neurological things, like for example boost serotonin because tobacco, not nicotine, as an MAOI, and 90 other neurological things we don't even know. 

 

I would be very curious to see what would happen to you if you could go 90 days without any form of tobacco.

 

Let us know if you try.

 

Be well buddy,

 

Ramcon1

 

Yep, I'm going to work on this. I'll reply on this one again when I'm off tobacco completely.