A cold-turkey Sunday. Please, help.

[[Es...]]

Dear Estee,

 

I also voluntarily committed myself to a psych ward/treatment center (if you could call it that) in February. I came out after a rapid detox with 50 mg diazepam per day as per recommendation by the doctors, even though I tried to reason with them not to lower it from 60 mg (when I entered my dose was around 200 mg), and that was a week-long detox. I just knew I wouldn't make it that fast, and I was right. Subsequently, I upped to 80 mg, then back to Rivotril, etc. I stop here, as you said the numbers don't impress you.

 

I took the 50 mg last Saturday in a state of panic because I had nothing left and taking 5 mg even 4 times a day DID NOTHING. Also, I'm prone to self-destructive behaviour, and when I'm sober-minded (like right now), I don't perceive hostility coming from everywhere. But usually I feel totally abandoned and alone, and have a long history of abuse from random people who mind-fucked (pardon my language) with me.

 

When I took the 50 mg I felt despair at the prospect of what was going to happen the very next day.

 

Today when I took the 25 mg, I felt NORMAL. Not euphoric, not high, just normal and back to my real self. The best way to describe it is as though my identity came back (while before it was in limbo). I know you're trying to help, but I'm planning to take another 25 mg this late afternoon (I think I know my brain and body better than anyone now; I feel absolutely functional now), so I can achieve my goals tomorrow: quitting smoking (which immediately lowers my threshold), and stabilizing on 3 doses of 12.5 mg during the day. Then I'll make my first cut on the 29th of July and proceed with a smooth taper every Monday. I can tolerate one week cuts.

 

It may seem a bit far-fetched to you, but trust me, 4 doctors examined me. And, yes, lorazepam's half-life is longer for me than diazepam because it bypasses the liver. It's my liver that metabolizes the benzos so fast, while lorazepam is excreted directly through the kidneys without any metabolites.

 

In general, I'm self-destructive when I feel like I lose total control over my life. There are days, even weeks, when I'm in full control at almost every aspect of it, and then BAM - someone or somebody hurts me and I wasn't vigilant (if I had been, maybe I wouldn't have taken it to heart), and I numb the pain with the opposite - total chaos and lack of control. I may even slip into a depression.

 

Thanks for asking! 

 

I just saw your post. I understand the impulse to be self-destructive. You feel abandoned and alone. You were programmed like this, probably as a kid. I remember reading your introductory post. It's difficult to change one's emotional programming, but it can be done. With time and practice. Yes, some people are just predators. They can sense the insecurity and attack. I keep trying to get such people out of my life. It costs me a lot, cause I'm naturally attracted to toxic people. I was programmed like this. I have gotten used to drama. And now I'm sick of the drama. I just want peace of mind.

 

I know that if I hurt myself. I hurt my Kitty. She loves me. She accepts me totally. So it has become more difficult to hurt myself. I'm learning to protect myself from toxic people, set boundaries, etc. It's a process. You cannot change other people. You can only change how you react to them. One needs to learn self-care, self-compassion, self-kindness, self-discipline. Would you hate BenzoMutant if he were your friend?

 

Self-destruction is a habit. It can be replaced with another habit. Self-care. Quitting cigs at this point could not be the best idea. These are huge amounts of BZD. If combined with opiates and ADs, they could actually kill you.

 

What if you started a Progress Log here? I keep a Progress Log. A diary of my feelings. What's good about the Progress Log, is that no one can reply you. So you're not afraid of being judged. Or ignored. Or whatever. I doubt people read Progress Logs. People like to watch interactions. If there is no interaction, the whole thing becomes less interesting.

 

It's all about the feelings. We believe in those pills as if they were our God. What Alcoholics Anonymous call a Higher Power. Psych meds actually could make us weaker. The point is to find a Higher Power different than the Pill. Or any chemical substance for that matter. Or anything that destroys us.

 

[[...]]

There are some megadose case studies posted in BB's News section, which might be of interest:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=172440.0

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=173029.0

[[Be...]]

Dear Estee,

 

First of all, thank you for the long and considerate post. You really put some thought in it. I agree with you about self-kindness, self-care, self-discipline and compassion, and I had more or less learnt how to do those before I got readdicted, using CBT. But now I'm back, so, yes, I have to relearn them again. The idea about a progress log is fantastic.

 

Yes, we have to remember that when we act self-destructively, we hurt others - Kitty, for example. Or our relatives.

 

And, god, yeah, we have been programmed like this emotionally from the beginning. But genes are not the only factor to consider. They may be where we start off, but it's not a destiny written in stone. We can make healthy choices or unhealthy ones.

 

I wish you knew me a year and a half ago when I was more cheerful. Expectations is another trap - just because I'm euphoric and ready to come to the rescue of someone, does not mean in the slightest, that'd they respond back. And why should I be expecting this in the first place? Now I've learnt that lesson.

 

You're telling me everything I already know and have discussed with my therapist, and have told myself a million times. I just don't put it into practice. Or when I do, it lasts for a few days or a week, and then BAM.... I need to learn to tolerate pain and boredom without going into crisis mode/drama mode. Honestly, drama mode is better than depression mode lol. Anyway...

 

Thanks again. I can definitely appreciate the words of wisdom, as though they're coming from a person who has experience with that and has cultivated the right healthy habits

[[Be...]]

Guys, I've made a decision and I will stick by it no matter how hard the first few days are. Things are spiralling out of control and I have to put a stop to it.

 

I tried cutting from 8 or 7 or 6 pills of 2.5 mg lorazepam, but it's impossible because of the enormous fluctuations that follow. Tomorrow I go back to the highest possible dose recommended by my psychiatrist to stabilize on. If it's too high, I feel SICK and barely have any energy, and my brain turns to moosh. If it's too low, it's withdrawal. But at least it won't be cold turkey.

 

(start STABILIZATION): 08:00 (5 x 2.5mg lorazepam + 100 mg quetiapine + 500 mg valproic acid) + 15:00 (5 x 2.5mg lorazepam + 100 mg quetiapine) + 22:00 (5 x 2.5mg lorazepam + 200mg quetiapine + 500 mg valproic acid)

,UNTIL the 5th August when I'll make my first cut  - 1 pill x 2.5 mg lorazepam in the morning.

 

I have 11 days to stabilize on that dosage, and my doctor said, the more you stabilize, the more you'll feel how you'll find yourself needing less. I assume he didn't mean anything longer than 2 weeks, of course.

 

The first few days are going to be the worst, but at least it's not cold-turkey although it may feel like it. I'm basically halving the dosage.

 

Wish me luck and sorry to bother you with the mess I made out of everything! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I have a student coming I have to teach in 2 days. I can't lose my brain in the process. I promise to be more supportive to others once I'm okay.

 

Thanks to all who've helped me so far!

[[Ma...]]

Guys, I've made a decision and I will stick by it no matter how hard the first few days are. Things are spiralling out of control and I have to put a stop to it.

 

I tried cutting from 8 or 7 or 6 pills of 2.5 mg lorazepam, but it's impossible because of the enormous fluctuations that follow. Tomorrow I go back to the highest possible dose recommended by my psychiatrist to stabilize on. If it's too high, I feel SICK and barely have any energy, and my brain turns to moosh. If it's too low, it's withdrawal. But at least it won't be cold turkey.

 

(start STABILIZATION): 08:00 (5 x 2.5mg lorazepam + 100 mg quetiapine + 500 mg valproic acid) + 15:00 (5 x 2.5mg lorazepam + 100 mg quetiapine) + 22:00 (5 x 2.5mg lorazepam + 200mg quetiapine + 500 mg valproic acid)

,UNTIL the 5th August when I'll make my first cut  - 1 pill x 2.5 mg lorazepam in the morning.

 

I have 11 days to stabilize on that dosage, and my doctor said, the more you stabilize, the more you'll feel how you'll find yourself needing less. I assume he didn't mean anything longer than 2 weeks, of course.

 

The first few days are going to be the worst, but at least it's not cold-turkey although it may feel like it. I'm basically halving the dosage.

 

Wish me luck and sorry to bother you with the mess I made out of everything! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I have a student coming I have to teach in 2 days. I can't lose my brain in the process. I promise to be more supportive to others once I'm okay.

 

Thanks to all who've helped me so far!

 

Please be careful......

[[Be...]]

Thank you, Mary! 

 

I will. There's no other way. Either this or cold-turkey. I'll be careful to follow strictly that schedule no matter how I feel. I need to remember this. Withdrawal is not linear, it's not predictable, but I have control over the stable ingestion of what I take. The brain will do its work, maybe in a few days, maybe not even until my next cut. Doesn't matter. I've run out of choices, I'm sick of it, and if I want to be who I am, that's the right path. I know it will be tough.

[[Ma...]]

Thank you, Mary! 

 

I will. There's no other way. Either this or cold-turkey. I'll be careful to follow strictly that schedule no matter how I feel. I need to remember this. Withdrawal is not linear, it's not predictable, but I have control over the stable ingestion of what I take. The brain will do its work, maybe in a few days, maybe not even until my next cut. Doesn't matter. I've run out of choices, I'm sick of it, and if I want to be who I am, that's the right path. I know it will be tough.

 

Don't loose touch !  We are kind of use to you know

[[Es...]]

Thank you, Mary! 

 

I will. There's no other way. Either this or cold-turkey. I'll be careful to follow strictly that schedule no matter how I feel. I need to remember this. Withdrawal is not linear, it's not predictable, but I have control over the stable ingestion of what I take. The brain will do its work, maybe in a few days, maybe not even until my next cut. Doesn't matter. I've run out of choices, I'm sick of it, and if I want to be who I am, that's the right path. I know it will be tough.

 

You cannot do a cold turkey. I see you have started a Progress Log. Good decision, don't give up on it. One realizes many things when one just keeps talking to oneself, without expecting any reply.

 

One can then revisit some old posts on the Progress Log and find out many interesting things.

 

About meds, emotions, thoughts, etc.

[[Be...]]

You're right, Estee. Thank you for the idea. So far, I realise how many times I've failed. Like you can literally see it in front of you.

 

It's just so difficult to taper from such a high dosage in oral tablet form. I thought about it. But I'm not going back to a hospital. The fluctuations cause really annoying inter-dose withdrawals until the big one and when I take 10 x 2.5 mg lorazepam (I've established that's my threshold baseline now, sad, but true), first I feel the flood of it sometimes, how it extinguishes the symptoms. If I take them with coffee in the morning, it energizes me. THEN immediately after that I start "feeling" how the brain registers this as abnormal, and puts on high gear to upregulate and push more glutamate into my system or whatever. THAT didn't happen before when I was taking 5 x 2.5 mg (which is still considered high by many).

 

Any suggestions on how to taper (please) ? I had 2 versions:

 

1) I taper by .5 mg every 6 hours until I get to 6 or 6.5, sleep whenever I can. Sleep is totally erratic, either insomniac or hypersomniac at the moment anyway.

2) I taper by .5 mg every 8 hours but take Seroquel to make me sleep exactly at the same time every night.

 

But the second version would take ages and it's not as fine-tuned as the first one. I can't rush it. I tried while it was still possible, and it was working, but binged on 10 again. So, now I have to do it slow, but not too slow because lol ... I think it's obvious.

[[Be...]]

abcd,

 

Thank you for the megadose reports! WOW! There is always a way out. I just can't figure out my own schedule while before it was simple. I guess I'll have to just do it hip-hazardly. Wait till it's unbearable and not take 10, but 9, next time 8, next time 7.... I dunno. Unless I run out of supplies again. It's so costy. And I'm struggling with the one student I have not to mess things up.

 

I must resist the temptation of taking 3 or 4 pills. That just makes it worse. I dunno, everything's changed since I'm no longer on 5 pills three times a day. The smaller dosages just flare it up.

 

The last time I did fantastic work with my student was by having 10 x 2.5 mg lorazepam ingested 20 minutes prior to the lesson and I was drinking black tea and kept my focus on my work. The draining effects were noticed about 4 hours after that lesson.

 

Thank you all. I just want to achieve the stability I previously had. It's my fault. I really am at a loss. No tapering schedule seems like it's going to work. All I know is I took 10 x 2.5 mg lorazepam about 3 hours ago, and right now I want to take the same dosage (I WON'T), but taking 5 pills let's say won't do much, just flare up the benzo dragon.

[[Es...]]

abcd,

 

Thank you for the megadose reports! WOW! There is always a way out. I just can't figure out my own schedule while before it was simple. I guess I'll have to just do it hip-hazardly. Wait till it's unbearable and not take 10, but 9, next time 8, next time 7.... I dunno. Unless I run out of supplies again. It's so costy. And I'm struggling with the one student I have not to mess things up.

 

I must resist the temptation of taking 3 or 4 pills. That just makes it worse. I dunno, everything's changed since I'm no longer on 5 pills three times a day. The smaller dosages just flare it up.

 

The last time I did fantastic work with my student was by having 10 x 2.5 mg lorazepam ingested 20 minutes prior to the lesson and I was drinking black tea and kept my focus on my work. The draining effects were noticed about 4 hours after that lesson.

 

Thank you all. I just want to achieve the stability I previously had. It's my fault. I really am at a loss. No tapering schedule seems like it's going to work. All I know is I took 10 x 2.5 mg lorazepam about 3 hours ago, and right now I want to take the same dosage (I WON'T), but taking 5 pills let's say won't do much, just flare up the benzo dragon.

 

You destroy yourself because of a student? Like no faith in yourself, all faith in the Pill? Maybe you need to be doing something else. Like translations? If your anxiety of being judged by a student is so high.

 

I used to be a teacher. I was doing my studies at the same time. I'm very familiar with taking BZD before the lessons. I had to drink coffee, cause the BZD made me lethargic and unable to think clearly.

 

It was all nonsense. I have no idea how you should taper the BZD. Probably by understanding what feelings make you ingest these huge amounts of poison in the first place. And make you so self-destructive.

 

I totally understand. I always got myself into pills cause of my emotions towards others. My performance always had to be the best possible. I guess I always expected to be judged negatively. Like I have always been judged negatively by both Parents. I was either utterly idealized or utterly devalued. Someone once told me that I expect to be seen with Mother's eyes by everyone.

 

More often I was devalued by Parents. If someone disliked me, it was a personal tragedy. People in authority inspired awe and fear at the same time. It all led to more and more pills in order to be "enough". I hope this helps. I'm struggling myself.

[[Be...]]

Estee,

 

I'm not destroying myself because of the student. Quite the opposite, I felt better and more confident working with her. And I need the money. I just meant that I needed the 10 pills with coffee (like you did) to focus well on the lesson and give the best of me. Without the benzos (not the coffee in particular), I wouldn't have been able to.

 

I see we share similarities that could be explained by BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), but it seems that you've misread my message entirely. I just need help to draft a schedule or devise a way to get back to the STABLE dosage of 5 x 2.5mg lorazepam three times a day + the Seroquel and valproate, so I can actually STABILIZE for a week and begin tapering.

 

My main issue is how to get down from 10 to 5 because it seems not to obey the normal laws of tapering, since it's such a high dose. The fluctuations are terrible. And it feels like I must dose myself with 10 pills every 4 or 5 hours now (I don't do it yet), but that's what's been happening the last week.

 

Thank you for the support, but I'm not trying to destroy myself now, nor self-harm. I just can't figure out a way to go DOWN. I had two versions plan, but I doubt even they would work any longer.

 

As far as being super ambitious, yeah, I get that. But 1) I enjoy being a teacher and want to give my students the best I can 2) As low as it sounds, I need the CASH right now to buy more drugs or I'm up for a hellish cold-turkey...

[[Be...]]

Estee,

 

It seems you misread the purpose of my post entirely. I really tried. But this really is of no help at all. If I wanted instructions about BPD, I have them memorised by rote. I needed practical advice for tapering. Oh, now I sound like such an opportunist, don't I? I'm just sick of getting ******.

 

That's it for me and this forum, I'm serious this time.

[[Ca...]]

Are these “brand” or Research (RC) meds, or a bit of both..??

 

Sorry, Its beyond me to speculate on the effects of a day or two of sudden abstinence, but my thoughts will be with you...

[[Es...]]

Estee,

 

I'm not destroying myself because of the student. Quite the opposite, I felt better and more confident working with her. And I need the money. I just meant that I needed the 10 pills with coffee (like you did) to focus well on the lesson and give the best of me. Without the benzos (not the coffee in particular), I wouldn't have been able to.

 

I see we share similarities that could be explained by BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), but it seems that you've misread my message entirely. I just need help to draft a schedule or devise a way to get back to the STABLE dosage of 5 x 2.5mg lorazepam three times a day + the Seroquel and valproate, so I can actually STABILIZE for a week and begin tapering.

 

My main issue is how to get down from 10 to 5 because it seems not to obey the normal laws of tapering, since it's such a high dose. The fluctuations are terrible. And it feels like I must dose myself with 10 pills every 4 or 5 hours now (I don't do it yet), but that's what's been happening the last week.

 

Thank you for the support, but I'm not trying to destroy myself now, nor self-harm. I just can't figure out a way to go DOWN. I had two versions plan, but I doubt even they would work any longer.

 

As far as being super ambitious, yeah, I get that. But 1) I enjoy being a teacher and want to give my students the best I can 2) As low as it sounds, I need the CASH right now to buy more drugs or I'm up for a hellish cold-turkey...

 

Don't give up on the forum because you feel annoyed by what I wrote. I may stop writing in this thread if you wish. I give you my time and energy, cause I want to help you. I probably feel we are similar in some ways. You think you are not destroying yourself with all these pills?

 

I will not give you practical advice on tapering. I wish you became more focused on your feelings than on the numbers. If what I wrote pi**ed you off, then there must be some truth in it. Maybe you could just GO DOWN if you realized that it's not about the numbers, but your emotions.

 

You see, I was very convinced I had to take 10 or 5 pills of diazepam. In order to sleep. While in fact I didn't. I'm generally obsessed with the numbers. And with pills, a bit less now. This combo is a very difficult thing.

 

Just that all this amount of lorazepam made you feel "normal". It didn't mean that your performance was so good. Benzos impair our judgement and often give us attacks of rage. Like you were furious at me when you wrote the posts.

 

I understand that you need the money. But the BZD may take away your ability to earn money.

 

Oh well, if I had to choose the taper version. I'd probably choose the first one. With the sleep that is totally erratic. You sleep whenever you can.

 

The absolute priority is to decrease the benzo. But you see, this is a question for a pdoc. Seroquel's half-life is 6 hours, so it stays in your system for 12 hrs. What purpose were you given the Seroquel for?

 

Seroquel used to knock me down. I was unable to function, even if I couldn't sleep. The dose as low as 1-2 mg knocked me down. I used this med for sleep for many years. Like 6.25-12 mg at night.

 

Do you suffer from insomnia? I do. For me and some other folks here on BB it worked to sleep whenever we could. My pdoc has always said it makes sense.

 

So you take 10 pills of 2.5 mg lorazepam 3 times a day. Now. Since that panick attack like a week ago. Is that right? It equals 250 mg of diazepam 3 times a day? 750 mg diazepam a day?

 

You want to go down to 5 pills of 2.5 mg lorazepam 3 times a day. That would be 125 mg diazepam 3 times a day. 350 mg of diazepam a day?

 

Did I get the numbers right?

 

Yes, it's possible to go down by 0.5 mg lorazepam (5 mg diazepam) every 6 or 8 hours. So the first version seems to make more sense.

 

When do you take this valproic acid? What is it supposed to help with? It will certainly prevent you from seizures.

[[Be...]]

Don't give up on the forum because you feel annoyed by what I wrote. I may stop writing in this thread if you wish. I give you my time and energy, cause I want to help you. I probably feel we are similar in some ways. You think you are not destroying yourself with all these pills?

 

I will not give you practical advice on tapering. I wish you became more focused on your feelings than on the numbers. If what I wrote pi**ed you off, then there must be some truth in it. Maybe you could just GO DOWN if you realized that it's not about the numbers, but your emotions.

 

You see, I was very convinced I had to take 10 or 5 pills of diazepam. In order to sleep. While in fact I didn't. I'm generally obsessed with the numbers. And with pills, a bit less now. This combo is a very difficult thing.

 

Just that all this amount of lorazepam made you feel "normal". It didn't mean that your performance was so good. Benzos impair our judgement and often give us attacks of rage. Like you were furious at me when you wrote the posts.

 

I understand that you need the money. But the BZD may take away your ability to earn money.

 

Oh well, if I had to choose the taper version. I'd probably choose the first one. With the sleep that is totally erratic. You sleep whenever you can.

 

The absolute priority is to decrease the benzo. But you see, this is a question for a pdoc. Seroquel's half-life is 6 hours, so it stays in your system for 12 hrs. What purpose were you given the Seroquel for?

 

Seroquel used to knock me down. I was unable to function, even if I couldn't sleep. The dose as low as 1-2 mg knocked me down. I used this med for sleep for many years. Like 6.25-12 mg at night.

 

Do you suffer from insomnia? I do. For me and some other folks here on BB it worked to sleep whenever we could. My pdoc has always said it makes sense.

 

So you take 10 pills of 2.5 mg lorazepam 3 times a day. Now. Since that panick attack like a week ago. Is that right? It equals 250 mg of diazepam 3 times a day? 750 mg diazepam a day?

 

You want to go down to 5 pills of 2.5 mg lorazepam 3 times a day. That would be 125 mg diazepam 3 times a day. 350 mg of diazepam a day?

 

Did I get the numbers right?

 

Yes, it's possible to go down by 0.5 mg lorazepam (5 mg diazepam) every 6 or 8 hours. So the first version seems to make more sense.

 

When do you take this valproic acid? What is it supposed to help with? It will certainly prevent you from seizures.

 

I'll answer your questions one by one, patiently.

 

First of all, I apologise for the brutish way I snapped at you. I was/am so tired of not being able to stabilize on something a month ago I was stable on (and the dosage is double). Also, not that it's an excuse, but another negative external factor really pissed me off, and then I read your message, etc, you get the picture. Not that it's an excuse, but it might have contributed to my impulsive comment. It's incredibly difficult to control your emotions (negative ones especially) on benzos (as well all know). Please, accept my apology, you've been nothing but supportive to me 

 

Now, the rest:

• Benzos do impair our judgement, and I can see it first hand. Today I had to teach my student, prepping her for the IELTS (and this is Advanced English, certification for a medical practice, no kidding around), and we were discussing any associations the word "culture" might bring apart from the more conspicuous definition of a community or a society with shared beliefs, habits,prejudices, symbols, etc. I felt more or less okay because I had taken my 10 pills (25 mg lorazepam), but at one point I got stuck and was like "oh what did you call that... you know, when people listen to particular kind of music or dress up in a specific way..." SUBCULTURE, the word was retrieved from my memory at the least expected moment 2 hours after the lesson. Also, I used to ace most of the exercises, now I'm a mess. That's why I'm constantly practising to make sure the standard doesn't fall. So, yes, my judgement is definitely impaired and I overestimate my abilities or skills, even my tapering future
  
• About the taper plan, yes, I also thought every 6 hours would be a good idea, but my psychiatrist today said to my mother (I was busy) enough is enough, to which he added, "He should take 20 pills of 2.5 mg lorazepam for 3 days. He can divide them in 2 or 3 doses, however he chooses. BUT then he jumps to 3 times a day 5 pills x 2.5 mg. So basically a jump from 50 mgs to 37.5. He should then stabilize on that dose for 3-4 weeks if need be, but he should stop going up and down, up and down all the time. I know he sounds completely reasonable until the w/d kicks in, and I fear that such a drastic jump will be horrible. Today I've taken 30 mgs. 10 in the late morning, 10 at 6 pm and 10 at about 1 or 2 am. Withdrawal symptoms all the time. Or feeling heavy from the dosage.
  
• Why do I take Seroquel? Because I can't sleep without it at all. 400 mgs at night. And tonight I took 600 and still nothing. I must've hit tolerance with it as well :/ Otherwise the only way I managed to stabilize on 3 times a day 5 pills x  2.5 mg lorazepam was with 100 mg Seroquel in the morning and afternoon dose, and 200 before sleep. The valoproic acid was taken in the morning and evening. Right now my hands are shaking and hurting again, even though it's been 3 hours since my last 10 mg... Obviously, I won't take any until I feel like I'm about to die.
  

[*] I suffer both from insomnia and hypersomnia, it varies, and is so chaotic, I can't control it. Sometimes I'll sleep like a log without any Seroquel, other times I'll take 600 mg and poof, nothing.

 

And, yes, I understand the mental block you're referring to - "I had to take 10 or 5 plils of diazepam". I'm sorry you had to go through that

 

It's just I'm so tired of all this, but I'll keep trying. The hardest part is that I had already gone through this 7 years ago and I didn't need that much support, I managed to control the taper independently and wasn't stuck like hair in a sink

 

Finally, how safe is it to jump from 50 mg to 37.5 mg lorazepam and then stabilize without tweaking anything? I don't want protracted withdrawal symptoms or the first few days crippling me (if they do at all) from doing my job. I'm basically working right now to pay for the supply of pills without which I'll go through hellish withdrawal. I need to work  Catch-22

 

Thank you, estee. Thank you, cantfly

[[Es...]]

I need to think in order to write something that makes sense. Right now I'm very tired. We are more or less in the same time zone.

 

It's 4 am here. And 5 am at your place. You have too much faith in the BZD. As though it were the Bible.

 

Pdoc is right. The huge amounts of anti-convulsant will protect you from seizures. You shouldn't be scared of going down abruptly. I understand you are scared. And it ramps up the BZD WD symptoms.

 

You cannot sleep, cause the BZD act paradoxically at this dose. Making it impossible to sleep.

 

I need to get some work done. I work when I cannot sleep. I slept through the afternoon and evening, without any pills. Kitty is my best sleeping pill. Sleep is something that never comes if you want it at all cost.

 

Gosh, and I need to do the finances. I will be trying to think when I'm rested. What if you replaced your belief in the Pill by the belief in yourself? Some Higher Power that is stronger than the Pill?

 

I will be trying to stay logged in. I usually log in for 720' when I'm home, even when I sleep.

 

I think one cannot stay logged in to BB longer than that. BB is my safe place on the net.

[[Be...]]

Get some rest! 

 

Yes, work helps with everything. And you're right about the sleep and me putting too much faith in benzos. Anyway, this post is intended not to be long-winded.

 

P.S. 720?

[[ja...]]

Wow I was reading some of what you have posted here and I would love to just give you some encouragement!

My name is Jenny and I am a long timer here and long healed from around 40 mil of Valium Cold Turkey along with tons of painkillers from a chronic condition.

You can get through this doing a taper but pls go slow and ask some peeps here who are educated in tapering they can be a lifeline!

The best part is our brain does start to regulate the Gaba Receptors do start to rewrite and regulate in time !

I had over 80 sxs and little by little I healed . Stay strong don’t you give up! You are so much stronger than you believe!

 

I’m praying for you buddy!

 

-J

[[Es...]]

Get some rest! 

 

Yes, work helps with everything. And you're right about the sleep and me putting too much faith in benzos. Anyway, this post is intended not to be long-winded.

 

P.S. 720?

 

The 720' stands for 720 minutes, which equals 12 hours. The longest you can stay logged in here, according to my calculations.

[[Ca...]]

Hi BM,

 

Im pretty out of it, I had a major ooops yesterday, so im not good for much.. (all from a litre of organic apple juice.. ) Will see how I go, -read with caution..

 

 

Im just wondering about the origin of all or some of these meds as you said some were at a parcel depot or something..?? Are some “mail order” or non branded..?? If this is the case, then they can have quite different properties, going from a “sticky thread” I read the other day...

If not, the mind boggles that a Dr prescribed these type of doses, But I know it can happen, ie. my opiate doses.. But thats neither here or there in the scheme of things, asides a continued tapering supply..

 

Ok, So I havnt done high dose benzos, and im still not close to the same “high dose” as yourself, but there may be similarities..  The two werent much different, for me at least..

I found the first 30% of my taper to be the hardest, dropping 10% /month.. Then it got a little better down to 120mg/d, But I didnt know what I needed too then, -to slow right down at lower doses..

I also found I got real scared from the waves of symptoms, for good reason too, but I now know if I had held on another few days things would have gotten a bit better.. Easier said than done.. -sounds so simple when written..

I was not functional though, I dont think that “function” was ever a possibility for me at that time, tolerance symptoms were just too strong.. I think this might be a hard one for you too..?? -To maintain reduced doses and still “preform” as and when needed...??

Im not judging, I dont have to earn in the normal sense, but parenting and medical appointments had me increasing my doses to function, and it really didnt help.. But due to tolerance, I had to do that on my prescribed dose anyway.. The desperation of all this led me to the “unwise” decision to go into a detox centre, and im still paying the price of that one, as I see you understand...

 

No matter how you get there, within reason, I wonder if it isnt going to be the lower doses that make it or break it for you.. -A little simplistic I know, we have to get there first..

Im just not sure at what point actual upregulation or healing will start under the flood of very high doses.. Obviously there is something being affected, or we could just halve these very high doses and not notice, Im just not sure on what..?? The science I have read doesnt cover this, and I wonder if you dont need to dose, in part, to cover or alleviate, an endless circle of toxicity, in a kinda paradoxical way at these high doses.?? I know I administered my doses in some very unsafe ways in an attempt to survive the day, and in the end it was stable dosing that was key to making progress..

And with that, I wish you the very best and send you strength..

 

You will find your way to writing an amazing and valuable success story..

 

 

 

 

 

[[Ca...]]

Get some rest! 

 

Yes, work helps with everything. And you're right about the sleep and me putting too much faith in benzos. Anyway, this post is intended not to be long-winded.

 

P.S. 720?

 

The 720' stands for 720 minutes, which equals 12 hours. The longest you can stay logged in here, according to my calculations.

Hey Estee..

Good to see your posts around here again..

-1month log in period, if you select that in the little box..

 

My best to you and kitty cat..

 

[[Be...]]

Hi BM,

 

Im pretty out of it, I had a major ooops yesterday, so im not good for much.. (all from a litre of organic apple juice.. ) Will see how I go, -read with caution..

 

 

Im just wondering about the origin of all or some of these meds as you said some were at a parcel depot or something..?? Are some “mail order” or non branded..?? If this is the case, then they can have quite different properties, going from a “sticky thread” I read the other day...

If not, the mind boggles that a Dr prescribed these type of doses, But I know it can happen, ie. my opiate doses.. But thats neither here or there in the scheme of things, asides a continued tapering supply..

 

Ok, So I havnt done high dose benzos, and im still not close to the same “high dose” as yourself, but there may be similarities..  The two werent much different, for me at least..

I found the first 30% of my taper to be the hardest, dropping 10% /month.. Then it got a little better down to 120mg/d, But I didnt know what I needed too then, -to slow right down at lower doses..

I also found I got real scared from the waves of symptoms, for good reason too, but I now know if I had held on another few days things would have gotten a bit better.. Easier said than done.. -sounds so simple when written..

I was not functional though, I dont think that “function” was ever a possibility for me at that time, tolerance symptoms were just too strong.. I think this might be a hard one for you too..?? -To maintain reduced doses and still “preform” as and when needed...??

Im not judging, I dont have to earn in the normal sense, but parenting and medical appointments had me increasing my doses to function, and it really didnt help.. But due to tolerance, I had to do that on my prescribed dose anyway.. The desperation of all this led me to the “unwise” decision to go into a detox centre, and im still paying the price of that one, as I see you understand...

 

No matter how you get there, within reason, I wonder if it isnt going to be the lower doses that make it or break it for you.. -A little simplistic I know, we have to get there first..

Im just not sure at what point actual upregulation or healing will start under the flood of very high doses.. Obviously there is something being affected, or we could just halve these very high doses and not notice, Im just not sure on what..?? The science I have read doesnt cover this, and I wonder if you dont need to dose, in part, to cover or alleviate, an endless circle of toxicity, in a kinda paradoxical way at these high doses.?? I know I administered my doses in some very unsafe ways in an attempt to survive the day, and in the end it was stable dosing that was key to making progress..

And with that, I wish you the very best and send you strength..

 

You will find your way to writing an amazing and valuable success story..

 

Cantfly,

 

I just read your signature and found out you also had to deal with opiates. Ouch. I tried 40 mgs slow-relesead Oxycontin 3 times and it was amazing, but unlike benzos I made sure I spaced out the doses a week or two apart. So no opiate dependence. Phew. I got it from someone I knew once that opiate withdrawal is so bad it cannot compensate the amazing feeling the first dose gives you. All I know is that I felt at absolute peace and in love with everyone, had forgotten any hurt anyone had ever inflicted upon me, etc. But, I stop here. Did you succeed tapering off the opiates?I find your signature difficult to interpret.

 

Yes, I believe you might be right. The tolerance symptoms seem to be too hard to ignore. Hence, the updosing that I did in the last 3-4 weeks.

 

Yes, I agree, the lower you get, the more difficult it gets to tape and my advice here would be not to stagger too much. But from my current vantage point, at the top is no pickle either. The middle zose in probably the easiest to cope with.

 

Look, guys, I'm entitled to my opinion, and that's what it is with anyone dealing with benzos (but only if they have stabilised and not in limbo like I am right now). I find it best to reduce 10%-20 % EVEN (just stating my opinion, not being prescriptive) - 10 % when the doses are high, 20 % when the doses get low, every week. Why every week and not 2,3 or 4 weeks? Because I think the brain learns faster that with smaller cuts every week, there's a pattern it's starting to adhere too. It's as though it thinks to itself "Hmmm, every week I keep getting less of this at exactly the same time, and exactly the same dosage". To use a simple simile, it's a locomotive's engine or something. And it starts to work the other way around.

 

The alternatives are hyperdosing, which the brain responds to aggressively with immediate downregulation of GABAergic receptors and upregulation of glutamate, or stagnation (when people seem to stay at the same dosage for a month, two, three. The brain isn't getting any new signals in which direction to go). That's it, I've said it for the last time. Everybody knows their own pace and that's it.

 

I'm still beating my head against the wall: taper by 0.5 mg every 6 hours starting NOW until I get down to 37.5 (it will be more costly, but smoother), or wait another day like the doctor said on 50 mgs a day (last night it was 75, I couldn't withstand the interdose withdrawal)  or jump the day after tomorrow to 37.5. I want to believe him, and, yes, you all say even rough unplanned cuts or cold-turkeys eventually lead to healing, but I can't incapacitate myself while working. It's a no-no.

 

Cantfly, you seem to be tapering off an amazing amount of meds. It must be really difficult Or was that in the past and now you're off them? As I said, I can't read your signature well.

[[Ca...]]

There is a link to the first couple of pages to my blog in my sig.. That might help, But Dates are DD/MM/YY

 

I wish you the best with whatever you decide is right for you..

 

Oh, and I was off opiates for 15 months and getting worse, so they put me on a low dose of a specific opiate.. I just did a C/O back to oxy in preperation to taper, but it destroyed me..  I will taper soon..

 

Going through my records, im up to 74 meds, but most were short term, asides the antibiotics..

Those in my sig are what pertains to my tapering.. Lyrica and valium I duel tapered at times, and the gabapentin I now only have to take a couple of days a year, but in high doses...

 

I have been off Valium nearly a year to the day, and going very slow for my last 1mg (1yr) worked great for me... But underneath it seems I might have been quite fragile still..

 

My views on tapering seem very different to yours, so my thoughts might not be of much help...

 

But like I said, I do wish you all the best..