Experience with Total Insomnia (No sleep for days) Anybody have encouragement?

[[Da...]]

@Data_Guy

 

The laying in bed really isn't a technique for eventually falling asleep.  At least not at first.  It is simply resting your body and not expecting any sleep.  I followed Aloha's practice of going to bed and not expecting any sleep.  I told myself I would just lay there and rest my body.  I told myself I probably wouldn't get much, if any, sleep and that was OK.  I would listen to a Bible app or relaxing music or some guided meditation, etc.  Not to try to sleep, but to try to rest my body.  I noticed that every now and then I nodded off as an hour (or sometimes two hours, if I were lucky) passed on the clock.  My nights were disasters when I got out of bed after not falling asleep for 30 minutes.  I rarely got sleepy the first 8 months off, so I was pretty much out of bed all the time.  Moving back and forth from my bed to the sofa, etc., only ensured I wouldn't get any sleep.  I threw that thinking out the door and never tried it again even after my sleep started to return.  It might work for some?  And if it works, then definitely do it.

 

So, I would just lie in bed and try to rest my body whether sleep would come or not.

 

On nights where I had no perceived sleep, I most likely had some micro sleeps and possibly very light stage 1 sleep from time-to-time?  Things slowly got better.  I practiced gratitude and thankfulness as MT mentioned for any sleep I did get.  I remember the first time I got 3 hours (from 10:00 pm to 1:00 am) on was on top of the world!

 

At first I would toss and turn, punch the pillow and get very frustrated and angry that I wasn't sleeping.  This only ensured I was going to get very little, if any, sleep.  After I stopped getting angry and fighting my lack of sleep by just accepting it and laying in bed, it slowly got better.  Attitude can go a long way when dealing with insomnia for most?

 

I had a sleep study done and saw 3 different "sleep doctors" and all of them had me try some form of CBT since I did not have apena.  None of that worked for me as my insomnia was caused by down regulated Gaba receptors from the Benzos.  CBT might work well for "primary insomnia," but does very little for most going through drug induced insomnia?

 

Nothing in recovery is a one size fits all.  When I make statements about what works and doesn't, I need to qualify that with this is what works for most.  There are always exceptions.

 

Looking back, I am glad I decided to just lie in bed and rest my body.  It helped a lot since I had a lot of nights with no perceived sleep.

 

Thanks for the rundown TheWay. I do need to learn to relax. I had been much better lately, but that was because I was getting around 4 hours sleep pretty regularly. Unfortunately I am in the pit again. It is exacerbated for me because I developed some pretty extreme food intolerances after jumping, where I cannot eat any carbohydrates. The sensitivities get pretty extreme during periods of very little sleep, which really makes it difficult to settle down my stomach enough so that I can lie down without discomfort.

 

Funny you mention the first time you got 3 hours how happy you were. I honestly thought I would die on the 3rd straight day with no sleep, so when I got drowsy and went to sleep for 3 hours, I really did feel reborn. Like I had a second chance (and this time I wasn't going to mess it up!)

 

I also like how you put "sleep doctors" in scare quotes. I saw a couple of those guys and they made things much worse. I was desperate to get off the benzo and the first guy suggested Olanzapine, which I did not want to take, but I told myself I would take it just long enough to get off the benzo (I had tried almost every other drug to help). Well, it didn't work out that way. It helped me feel better for about a month or so, but I didn't make nearly enough progress tapering and ended up trapped on both drugs. The time when I was on both of those - a minor tranquilizer and a major one - was an absolute nightmare. I started having some pretty serious memory problems and although I slept ok, I did not really feel much better during the day. Working out became extremely difficult. I have always loved lifting weights, but now it took a Herculean effort just to get through a half hour workout. In retrospect, both doctors were quacks and there was no medical reasoning for what they did, despite having 10 years or so of medical education. The biggest danger with benzo withdrawal is seizures and Olanzapine actually lowers the threshold for seizures. There is also no empirical evidence that I am aware of for it helping to withdraw from benzos. They were treating insomnia and the anxiety and tension induced by tapering. Neither of these things is particularly dangerous, but the drugs they gave me were, increasing the probability of mortality by somewhere between 100-200%, from a meta-analysis I found.

 

One thing I have found with these types of doctors is they do not hesitate to lie and downplay the danger of the drugs to sell you on them. They will claim some particular side effect is much lower than it actually is, when really they are quoting from the randomized clinical trial funded by the company, where all rates of SX are shown to be much lower than reality. This way they cover themselves legally. They actually seem to be much more careful with language than they are with their drugs. Once I was on the Clonazepam for 7 or 8 years I could not really make proper decisions for myself or solve simple problems. Having tried to withdraw from the drug 3 or 4 times and failed, I'd lost a lot of motivation and was essentially a prisoner. No matter the good things that happened to me, I always had the pall of a sense of impending doom looming from not being able to escape the drug. The success of my last taper was only due to pure willpower and also the abandonment of caring whether I lived anymore. It was messy and chaotic and I feel lucky to not be dead or permanently disabled.

[[...]]

@Data_Guy

 

The laying in bed really isn't a technique for eventually falling asleep.  At least not at first.  It is simply resting your body and not expecting any sleep.  I followed Aloha's practice of going to bed and not expecting any sleep.  I told myself I would just lay there and rest my body.  I told myself I probably wouldn't get much, if any, sleep and that was OK.  I would listen to a Bible app or relaxing music or some guided meditation, etc.  Not to try to sleep, but to try to rest my body.  I noticed that every now and then I nodded off as an hour (or sometimes two hours, if I were lucky) passed on the clock.  My nights were disasters when I got out of bed after not falling asleep for 30 minutes.  I rarely got sleepy the first 8 months off, so I was pretty much out of bed all the time.  Moving back and forth from my bed to the sofa, etc., only ensured I wouldn't get any sleep.  I threw that thinking out the door and never tried it again even after my sleep started to return.  It might work for some?  And if it works, then definitely do it.

 

So, I would just lie in bed and try to rest my body whether sleep would come or not.

 

On nights where I had no perceived sleep, I most likely had some micro sleeps and possibly very light stage 1 sleep from time-to-time?  Things slowly got better.  I practiced gratitude and thankfulness as MT mentioned for any sleep I did get.  I remember the first time I got 3 hours (from 10:00 pm to 1:00 am) on was on top of the world!

 

At first I would toss and turn, punch the pillow and get very frustrated and angry that I wasn't sleeping.  This only ensured I was going to get very little, if any, sleep.  After I stopped getting angry and fighting my lack of sleep by just accepting it and laying in bed, it slowly got better.  Attitude can go a long way when dealing with insomnia for most?

 

I had a sleep study done and saw 3 different "sleep doctors" and all of them had me try some form of CBT since I did not have apena.  None of that worked for me as my insomnia was caused by down regulated Gaba receptors from the Benzos.  CBT might work well for "primary insomnia," but does very little for most going through drug induced insomnia?

 

Nothing in recovery is a one size fits all.  When I make statements about what works and doesn't, I need to qualify that with this is what works for most.  There are always exceptions.

 

Looking back, I am glad I decided to just lie in bed and rest my body.  It helped a lot since I had a lot of nights with no perceived sleep.

 

Thanks for the rundown TheWay. I do need to learn to relax. I had been much better lately, but that was because I was getting around 4 hours sleep pretty regularly. Unfortunately I am in the pit again. It is exacerbated for me because I developed some pretty extreme food intolerances after jumping, where I cannot eat any carbohydrates. The sensitivities get pretty extreme during periods of very little sleep, which really makes it difficult to settle down my stomach enough so that I can lie down without discomfort.

 

Funny you mention the first time you got 3 hours how happy you were. I honestly thought I would die on the 3rd straight day with no sleep, so when I got drowsy and went to sleep for 3 hours, I really did feel reborn. Like I had a second chance (and this time I wasn't going to mess it up!)

 

I also like how you put "sleep doctors" in scare quotes. I saw a couple of those guys and they made things much worse. I was desperate to get off the benzo and the first guy suggested Olanzapine, which I did not want to take, but I told myself I would take it just long enough to get off the benzo (I had tried almost every other drug to help). Well, it didn't work out that way. It helped me feel better for about a month or so, but I didn't make nearly enough progress tapering and ended up trapped on both drugs. The time when I was on both of those - a minor tranquilizer and a major one - was an absolute nightmare. I started having some pretty serious memory problems and although I slept ok, I did not really feel much better during the day. Working out became extremely difficult. I have always loved lifting weights, but now it took a Herculean effort just to get through a half hour workout. In retrospect, both doctors were quacks and there was no medical reasoning for what they did, despite having 10 years or so of medical education. The biggest danger with benzo withdrawal is seizures and Olanzapine actually lowers the threshold for seizures. There is also no empirical evidence that I am aware of for it helping to withdraw from benzos. They were treating insomnia and the anxiety and tension induced by tapering. Neither of these things is particularly dangerous, but the drugs they gave me were, increasing the probability of mortality by somewhere between 100-200%, from a meta-analysis I found.

 

One thing I have found with these types of doctors is they do not hesitate to lie and downplay the danger of the drugs to sell you on them. They will claim some particular side effect is much lower than it actually is, when really they are quoting from the randomized clinical trial funded by the company, where all rates of SX are shown to be much lower than reality. This way they cover themselves legally. They actually seem to be much more careful with language than they are with their drugs. Once I was on the Clonazepam for 7 or 8 years I could not really make proper decisions for myself or solve simple problems. Having tried to withdraw from the drug 3 or 4 times and failed, I'd lost a lot of motivation and was essentially a prisoner. No matter the good things that happened to me, I always had the pall of a sense of impending doom looming from not being able to escape the drug. The success of my last taper was only due to pure willpower and also the abandonment of caring whether I lived anymore. It was messy and chaotic and I feel lucky to not be dead or permanently disabled.

 

I feel for you Data, I can relate to the sugar thing too.  For inflammation, the intense cravings you can get before bed, stomach issues, etc. I don't have hard evidence to back it up but I feel like this might be affecting my sleep chances too.

 

Also the not caring if you... anymore. I don't know if that helps get through things for me personally but it's definitely an effect that happens with a lot of suffering.

 

My prayers for you Data_Guy, in Jesus Name.

[[Ho...]]

Thanks MTFAN,

 

      I never had insomnia in my entire life and I am 70.  It didn't hit me till I tapered to 10mg and now I'm tapering 5% off the 10mg.  That little and I'm already reacting.  I came off 20mg with no Insomnia whatsoever.  So go figure. 

 

  I do stay in bed and I do CBT and sometimes Tapping if I am not too tired.  When I know I am not going to get back to sleep, I listen to Scripture on Youtube via an earplug.  I keep everything dark.  If I have a headache, then I have no choice but to get ice packs, but I do that in the dark and go back to bed.  I know how important it is to keep a regular schedule even if you don't sleep.  I woke up this morning at 1:56 and I knew I was not going to get back to sleep........So I did the breathing and then after an hour, I turned on the cell phone and listened to Scripture.  I cover the Cell with Aluminum Foil and a towel so I don't see any light.  Then I listen and think of good thoughts and I pray.  This is how I get through the nights.

[[Ho...]]

This is from Benzo.org.  It's about Tips for Sleep.  They are not selling anything.  It is from the National Sleep Foundation.

 

http://benzosupport.org/sleep_our_number_one_project.htm

[[Ho...]]

I do NOT agree with all the tips .......like getting out of bed.  I don't agree with that at all.  I would not recommend that.  Just keep things dark and listen to something that might calm you but keep the room dark and do CBT Breathing.  Think good thoughts.

[[Th...]]

@[Da...]

 

Sorry you are in another sleep wave.  I remember the days of having to worry about what I would eat and how it might affect my sleep.  I still try to eat a very clean and healthy diet to this day.  But I did break the "diet rules" for a while this past summer and I didn't notice anything affecting my sleep that did earlier in my WD.  Carbs have the opposite effect on me.  If I eat them closer to bedtime, they usually make me sleepy.

 

I know you'll eventually get past this.  Hang in there. Hoping this sleep wave ends soon.

[[Da...]]

I appreciate the support, T-man and TheWay. I slept better a couple nights ago but then had a brutal night last night. I am going to start a support group for insomnia. I searched the forum (not very hard) for one but the only one I found was last active around 2016. I know there are not a ton of people active on this part of the board, so it may just turn into a personal blog of me rambling on about my experience, but I hope some other people contribute and find it helpful.

 

T-man, have you found any solution to your problem or formulated any sort of plan?

[[...]]

I appreciate the support, T-man and TheWay. I slept better a couple nights ago but then had a brutal night last night. I am going to start a support group for insomnia. I searched the forum (not very hard) for one but the only one I found was last active around 2016. I know there are not a ton of people active on this part of the board, so it may just turn into a personal blog of me rambling on about my experience, but I hope some other people contribute and find it helpful.

 

T-man, have you found any solution to your problem or formulated any sort of plan?

 

Yah, I really only have one option.  To keep my clonaz lasting and my sleep from dropping to 0.  So for example, I took 2.5mgs, then waited a few days until I absolutely could not sleep, then I took 2mgs, and am now waiting again until I am completely unable to sleep - should be tonight or if I'm lucky tomorrow night, I'm doing as slow a taper as I can with what clonaz I have left, and leaving days in between doses. If I'm lucky I might be able to get down low enough that the mg's I have left will last me until renewel, or that the mirtazapine will be able to take over and work again for sleep without the clonaz.  (This is a decent improvement because it typically takes between 2.5 - 4mgs, I'm hoping the 2mg lasts just as many days in between this would be a good sign and hopefully not a one off success.)

 

That might sound harsh to you guys, and certainly the sleeping is harsh, but remember I only recently got re-dependent thanks to the medical situation.  So the amount I need in my bloodstream to sleep is rather low I think.  Unfortunately it takes a high dose to fall asleep initially (2.5 - 4mg isn't really /that/ high but it is relative to not being dependent). I tried 1mg before and it just doesn't work. But after that fairly high dose, once I get my sleep going, it usually works for at least two days, I think possibly because of the Mirtazapine and how it complements clonaz, and slows down its metabolization.

 

I might get say, 5 - 7 hours after the clonaz dose, then the next night is usually no problem either because the dose was probably in the late am's the night before, and then the following night it'll be spotty sleep or disturbed and shortened, or whatever, name your 'sleep breaking down to nothing' symptom here, and then the night after that is likely a 0, or a 'semi' sleep for 1-2 hours then nothing period. Rinse, and repeat. 

 

There was only one day where I really felt any extra withdrawal symptoms besides insomnia. A panic attack, some nerve sensations, a crying jag.  It was easy to recognize because I've been off and on clonaz for 20 years, I can spot the difference between a clonaz withdrawal and just regular anxiety/stress from illness or etc. It hasn't happened since. But this is entirely new territory for me.  I've never been addicted to such an infrequent dose of clonaz, though I always knew it was possible, that you shouldn't take it three times a week because of the long half life. It's also very strange that I need such a high dose, despite going 2 - 3 days in between doses. So I honestly have no idea what to expect with trying to taper it and get my sleep back.  I just hope I can.  I hope one of these days I can go more than 3 days without it, that would be a good sign.  So far though it's just following the same pattern over and over again. 

 

As a backup I have access to a whole bottle of 50mg seroquel, but as I said before, I've never had success with seroquel before, but I've never taken higher than 50mg a day before either.  Seroquel never makes me feel sleepy or drowsy which I guess is not common, most people it does.  But if I'm really stuck I can always try 100mg one night and see what happens.

 

If I knew for sure it would work, I'd take it every day for a week or so, if it was capable of giving me 7 days out without clonaz to sleep, that would help a lot. I doubt very highly I'd get much of a withdrawal from the clonaz besides the lack of sleep. I'd probably get a bit of nerves, or 'unwell' feeling, but I don't think it would be a very serious acute withdrawal just based on how little must be in my bloodstream most of the time.  That's just my best guess, but honestly I don't know. I've never experienced this particular pattern of addiction before - like I said. So, the new territory aspect of it is a bit unsettling to me. Praying for the best, in Jesus's name. 

 

Also good luck with starting up the support group, and I pray your sleep returns soon Data~

[[Da...]]

Hi Tman,

 

Sorry you're having such a rough time. I don't know whether you have read much about tapers, but there's pretty good reasons you would want to avoid intermittent dosing. As you probably know, benzos act on the same receptors as alcohol, and there is a well known phenomenon with alcohol called kindling, where each withdrawal makes the subsequent withdrawal more severe and difficult. There's at minimum anecdotal evidence that this is the case for benzos too. So although you may be trying to limit your tolerance with the intermittent dosing, you may actually be strengthening your dependence through a sort of kindling / long term potentiation process. Here is a brief wiki summary:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindling_(sedative%E2%80%93hypnotic_withdrawal)

 

You're likely experiencing a mini-withdrawal with each intermittent dose (sort of similar to binge drinking). Since your neurons now need the clonazepam to function, they are going to slowly rewire so that they use the clonazepam more and more efficiently. I think it is a sort of learning process. I think the solution is to avoid intermittent dosing, and you'll see that most people here agree. Some who are tapering will even dose 3 times per day - even when they are using a long acting agent - to avoid any sort of interdose withdrawal and keep blood levels stable. I would take whatever dose you need to take on a regular basis to try and stabilize your sleep and then start a very slow taper. If you read the Ashton Manual or the forums, this is what you'll see recommended from the more experienced members. It's something I didn't really find out until I'd already jumped, and boy, have I paid for it. I hope that helps. For what it's worth, you sound very stable and under control in your posts, despite the extreme circumstances. That's very encouraging for your ability to handle the taper and withdrawal. You really do need to be able to make proper decisions for yourself under intense stress for a protracted period of time. I think this is where many people run into trouble. Their decision-making very understandably collapses under the stress.

[[...]]

Hi Tman,

 

Sorry you're having such a rough time. I don't know whether you have read much about tapers, but there's pretty good reasons you would want to avoid intermittent dosing. As you probably know, benzos act on the same receptors as alcohol, and there is a well known phenomenon with alcohol called kindling, where each withdrawal makes the subsequent withdrawal more severe and difficult. There's at minimum anecdotal evidence that this is the case for benzos too. So although you may be trying to limit your tolerance with the intermittent dosing, you may actually be strengthening your dependence through a sort of kindling / long term potentiation process. Here is a brief wiki summary:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindling_(sedative%E2%80%93hypnotic_withdrawal)

 

You're likely experiencing a mini-withdrawal with each intermittent dose (sort of similar to binge drinking). Since your neurons now need the clonazepam to function, they are going to slowly rewire so that they use the clonazepam more and more efficiently. I think it is a sort of learning process. I think the solution is to avoid intermittent dosing, and you'll see that most people here agree. Some who are tapering will even dose 3 times per day - even when they are using a long acting agent - to avoid any sort of interdose withdrawal and keep blood levels stable. I would take whatever dose you need to take on a regular basis to try and stabilize your sleep and then start a very slow taper. If you read the Ashton Manual or the forums, this is what you'll see recommended from the more experienced members. It's something I didn't really find out until I'd already jumped, and boy, have I paid for it. I hope that helps. For what it's worth, you sound very stable and under control in your posts, despite the extreme circumstances. That's very encouraging for your ability to handle the taper and withdrawal. You really do need to be able to make proper decisions for yourself under intense stress for a protracted period of time. I think this is where many people run into trouble. Their decision-making very understandably collapses under the stress.

 

If the intermittent dosing thing is true then I'm already screwed.  The reason I'm doing it is because I can't get enough to take a daily dose that would be fail safe for sleep.  I might have explained this elsewhere I'm not sure. But my doctor is basically completely void of any understanding of benzo's. I inherited this doctor because my original GP retired, and I made the grave mistake of telling this GP that I was tapering the last time I fully quit clonazepam so now I can't go back up to where I'd need to in order to do a normal daily taper.  This doctor has even threatened to cut me off because I asked for a daily dose so I could properly taper back off of it. I'm in a part of Canada where the benzo rules are the strictest.  And doctors have been trained in the last couple of years to treat benzo's like the devil, but without any proper understanding of how to get off of them, as usual, so it's even worse. If I try to make my case I could even be flagged as a drug-seeker. Despite the fact that no doctor has ever told me to cut, quit, or taper clonazepam, it was always my own choice, and they're the ones who got me hooked on them in the first place as a teenager. (Long time ago now.)

[[Th...]]

I agree with Data_Guy about the random doses.  I think that will make it harder to eventually get off, but you already know that and are doing what you need to do to survive.  In the long run, it is better to taper and be drug free one day, then true healing can begin.  I don't think it is possible to heal when you keep taking what some might consider "Rescue Doses" every 3 or 4 days or so in order to sleep?  Not the expert here for tapering as I did a CT after only being on Benzos a short time.   

 

I feel for you.  Not sleeping is a form of torture used extensively in war time...but again, you already know and experience this and have for years...so I am preaching to the choir!  If possible, find a different GP or someone that would allow you to stabilize and taper.  Maybe that's not possible where you live?  At any rate, praying you get some relief and a long-term solution!

[[Ho...]]

We need 4,700 mg of Potassium in our bodies every day.  I cannot eat that much but I took 500 mg of Potassium in capsule form last night and ate spinach.  Seems when I take my tablets at night they make me more hyper, which makes no sense to me. 

 

  Around 10:30 I could see I was not going to get to sleep.......so I finally broke down and took a Benedryl.  So I was able to sleep from 11p.m to 4:43 am which is the most sleep I have had in a while since I started this liquid taper.  However, when I take antihistamines I have headaches the next day and pressure in the head.  It's weird why that would happen.  I have not taken benedryl for sleep, but I just had to have something last night to sleep.

 

   

 

 

[[Da...]]

T-man,

 

Sorry, I had read about your situation, but forgotten. I don't like telling people what to do, but I don't want to see you suffer unnecessarily. You really are going to need a fairly substantial supply of Clonazepam. People think they will just get by tapering rapidly whatever supply they have, but if they end up with an extended post-withdrawal syndrome, they always regret it. Believe me, you want to do everything you can to avoid or shorten that. If it means a trip to Toronto, please do it. The brutality of withdrawal after a CT or rapid taper is not really something you can imagine or describe. I will honestly drive down to Toronto to get it for you, I'm about 5 hours away. I'm that serious. A rapid taper or CT is not something you can just tough out. Quite a few people have thought this and done permanent damage to themselves as a result. It is dangerous.

 

I have a benzo-wise doctor. I wonder if I could convince him to explain things to his colleague over the phone? I would have to make an appointment and that could take awhile. I've actually only had a couple appointments with him so far.

[[jo...]]

Been there done that , believe it or not I twice I went 7 days without sleep and I was in a mental hospital which I signed myself in. Now 780 days out I hit a plateau around 1 year out . My sleep has never ever been the same since and its shitty lite non restful sleep. I average 4 hours a night and have not taken anything except occasional SMALL dose of melatonin less than 1 mg. Insomnia especially total insomnia is pure hell. I felt like My brain was plugged into a wall socket. It was so so difficult to even get up to 4 hours of crappy sleep.

[[St...]]

Been there done that , believe it or not I twice I went 7 days without sleep and I was in a mental hospital which I signed myself in. Now 780 days out I hit a plateau around 1 year out . My sleep has never ever been the same since and its shitty lite non restful sleep. I average 4 hours a night and have not taken anything except occasional SMALL dose of melatonin less than 1 mg. Insomnia especially total insomnia is pure hell. I felt like My brain was plugged into a wall socket. It was so so difficult to even get up to 4 hours of crappy sleep.

 

Did you have insomnia before Benzos? I slept like a baby. I’m 42 and never had a single day of insomnia in my life until I got put on these drugs.

[[Go...]]

I think the last restful night of sleep was on Tuesday for me. So it’s like 6 days right now and I haven’t slept at all since Friday night.

 

I had a really stressful week and got triggered. My body has been stuck in Fight/flight mode. Our gaba/glutamate receptors are messed up from withdrawal. When glutamate (stimulant) is too high, our gaba receptors are super lax about getting that balance. I had a bad neurotoxic episode a few months ago where the excitotoxins were way too high. I was awake 5 days straight with an internal tremor. This week the tremor is slightly back just enough to be annoying. I’m not sleeping and I’m a little traumatized from what happened before.

 

can’t take anything that acts on gaba because the glutamate will end up rising once it wears off and I don’t want to be back in that cycle either. Last time my body eventually got so exhausted that I slept.  We had a tornado come through the area tonight and it really hit my core because a hurricane is the reason why I developed ptsd and was treated with benzos for it.

 

4am here and still waiting for that sleep train to come through tonight. I think I missed it.

[[Go...]]

This is from Benzo.org.  It's about Tips for Sleep.  They are not selling anything.  It is from the National Sleep Foundation.

 

http://benzosupport.org/sleep_our_number_one_project.htm

Just a heads up that the teas and aroma therapy might be a temporary relief but it could cause a reliance on those things plus an increase in excitatory symptoms once it wears off. Lavender, chamomile, etc. hit the same receptors as Benzos. So while it will calm temporarily, it might rev up withdrawal symptoms once it wears off.

[[Ho...]]

Potassium and Magnesium Citrate works.  We are supposed to ingest 4,700 mgs of Potassium a day and it helps us sleep. 

 

  I am also having problems sleeping at 10mg taper.  I'm tapering at 5% since I'm having trouble sleeping and I have Zero meds to help me bcuz I am reacting to all of them.  Even Benedryl.......antihistamines cause me migraines.

 

  I have tried Everything to help me sleep and cannot find anything that helps.  And I have such a long way to go.  And I react to everything since the Benzos.

 

 

[[...]]

T-man,

 

Sorry, I had read about your situation, but forgotten. I don't like telling people what to do, but I don't want to see you suffer unnecessarily. You really are going to need a fairly substantial supply of Clonazepam. People think they will just get by tapering rapidly whatever supply they have, but if they end up with an extended post-withdrawal syndrome, they always regret it. Believe me, you want to do everything you can to avoid or shorten that. If it means a trip to Toronto, please do it. The brutality of withdrawal after a CT or rapid taper is not really something you can imagine or describe. I will honestly drive down to Toronto to get it for you, I'm about 5 hours away. I'm that serious. A rapid taper or CT is not something you can just tough out. Quite a few people have thought this and done permanent damage to themselves as a result. It is dangerous.

 

I have a benzo-wise doctor. I wonder if I could convince him to explain things to his colleague over the phone? I would have to make an appointment and that could take awhile. I've actually only had a couple appointments with him so far.

 

I appreciate your post very much Data. It means a lot to me.  I may take you up on the referral thing, I can't see myself asking you drive out that far it would be asking too much.  Right now I'm going to try and stabilize by going on a daily dose of 0.25, I've got enough to do that for a while.  I don't know if this can cover the odd binging I've been doing, but in three or so days that should equal about 0.5 in my bloodstream every day. 

 

I'm hoping that it works and my insomnia doesn't return.  I've never taken super high doses every 3 - 4 days like this before, but since I sleep all right for a night or two, I did some of the math, and I'm hoping that a regular daily dose of 0.25 will put enough in my blood stream that this problem goes away. I hope my brain doesn't expect these super high doses every couple of days in order to sleep DESPITE going on a daily dose again.  I'm hoping having some in my blood stream all the time will allow me to sleep every night, even if it's just a few hours, without those dreaded zero nights that lead to endless zero nights until I take a rescue dose.

 

I'm gonna try it for a week, and I'll know if I make it past 5 or 6 days with bearable withdrawals and some sleep every night, no zero nights, that it will work.  If not, I'll have to take a 'rescue' dose despite going on daily, and then obviously I have to switch plans.

 

What I really wanted from my doctor, if she'd listen to me, is about 1mg a day. I know that sounds like a lot, but I've been on clo for so long I'm positive this amount daily would work without the need for ANY rescue doses, and I know how to safely taper off 1mg a day, it takes years but it's way safer and easier and I'm much more confident it would allow me to sleep every night with no need for a rescue ever.

 

I'm hoping and praying desperately that my 0.25mg a day will stabilize me.  My body is so used to having a zero night every few nights. I just hope and pray it works in combo with my remeron.  Pray for me.  If any of you have experience with this kind of reinstatement from a 'binge'/rekindling/intermittent use of clonaz please comfort me.

 

I didn't do it on purpose. I've been on a PRN dose of clonaz for almost four years or so.  When I first quit from long taper I went 18 days without it no withdrawal or nothing, had a night of sleep trouble and made the mistake of thinking I could take clonaz PRN, my doc thought I could too.

 

It honestly wasn't a problem until this recent medical incident where I had to take it every 3 - 4 days for my injury for a month or two, etc. now I don't sleep every 3 to 4 nights without, day 4 - 5 I am in withdrawal and zero night is gonna happen, and it takes humongous doses to rescue me. 

 

Sometimes as low as 2.5mg, but if my nerves are fried from withdrawal of the day, I sometimes have to take up to 4mg, and that only gives me 3 - 5 hours of sleep, but usually next night I can sleep a full 7 with just my remeron, and my sleep is 'okay' for a day or so more, then degrades and turns to zero as the clo leaves system, day 3-4.  Day 4 always rough, day 5 if I make it there, I'm in true withdrawal, more than just insomnia, and will have a zero night by day 4 or 5. It seems to get worse every time. 

 

What you guys think? Some positivity would help. Please don't scare me. I stayed away from the forum for a few days cause you scared me Data, I didn't know about rekindling and I'm scared.  I don't want to be even more broken then ever before and end up with no way to properly taper.  A lot of the time I can't even drive anymore - and my injury prevented me from driving for a month and even last time I tried a longer drive about a week or a week and half ago driving exacerbated my muscles and can cause headache. I'm in helpless mode, where I can't do things for myself anymore except for when I have the clonaz in me.  So the thought of needing to try and drive to Toronto scares me. Or seeing a doctor, that also scares me, because I've had so many bad experiences with them, doing the wrong thing, not understanding benzo's, etc.  I've been on and off 20 years and have terrible experience with doctors and my prescription - despite they are the ones who got me addicted in the first place 20 years ago.  I don't use clonaz 'for fun' or abuse it or etc.  I never did.  I am the one who tapered it, no doctor ever told me to quit, cut, or taper. It was all my choice and now I'm paying for it. I wish I never told my doctor. Then I'd have more than enough to do a proper taper all by myself. 

 

Benzo's being demonized by the government etc. and the ignorance of doctors has harmed me more than the drug itself ever did.  I wouldn't be taking it so infrequently or etc. if my doctor just listened to me, I knew what I needed to do it properly.

 

I have enough for 0.25 every day for three months, if my doctor doesn't cop out on me I should be able to keep this amount. (I just got my last refill before I have to go back and ask for renewel in 3 months). It's 25mg for 90 days.  By taking it intermittently I was taking a much higher dose, but infrequently, so I'm really hoping a daily dose in the blood stream can cover this. 

 

It's the most I can get. 

 

I am afraid of trying the process of switching doctors because so often they try to cut you off or switch you to other psych drugs as if it will help, or etc. 

 

I'm not kidding at all when I say this is one of the worst areas of Canada for saying you're on benzo's. It was fine 20 years ago when I was younger, my family doctor would listen to me and help me out if I needed by letting me control my script and taper etc.  But all the new doctors it seems like they got an 'education' from the government that says, "Take people off benzos, etc. etc." It's absolute hell.  I've never met a single doctor in person who understands how to properly do this, not one. 

 

And everyone who makes the mistake of going to ER or etc. gets the 'standard' drug-withdrawal treatment which does NOT work for benzo's it might as well be called 'C/T with a ton of extra drugs to mess up your body even more and get you addicted to more substances.' 

 

So yah, really hoping this 0.25 a day which should make my blood concentration rise to around 0.5mg's a day within a week or so, will work out for me. 

 

Please no scaring me. I don't have any options and I don't have it in me to drive far and quite honestly I'm paranoid it wouldn't help me anyway.  I am terrified of doctors and their arrogance.  No doctors listen to me.

 

They treat you like a drug addict - even though you aren't a drug-seeker.  My GP who I inherited from my old GP who retired, treated me like a drug-seeker when I asked for a proper dose to do things slow and right.  And threatened to tell the pharmacy to withhold my prescription.  I have NO history of drug seeking. Like I said. I've NEVER been on painkillers (except Naproxen, an NSAID not an opiate) and ----I----- am the one who decided to taper and quit clonazepam NOT a doctor. EVER. 

 

They hook you on these drugs, it ruins your brain so you literally can't sleep or function without it, then they treat you like a drug addict who willingly abused drugs.  I never abused my clo.  I used it exactly as prescribed every time. 

 

I didn't know using it PRN would lead to this.  I was literally no longer dependent. I could go 18 days with no withdrawals or problems. 

 

Then this medical event happened and clonaz was the only antispasmodic that relieved ER level headaches caused by spasticity in my trapezius and surrounding neck muscles (caused by injury).  I told my doctor this. I tried many other meds to help me through the first month of this but only clonaz relieved the headaches/pain.

 

The pain level was so excruciating that it was just as bad as benzo withdrawal, and at the height of the headaches every 3 days or so, worse in some respects. Crawling in pain, unable to converse, concentrate, moaning in pain.  I felt like I had no choice but to use the only medication that relieved it. I found out by ACCIDENT that it relieved it, when I took it one night to try to calm down enough to tough out the pain for a few hours so I could get to ER safely in the morning when there wasn't snow on the road (car is small and slippery) and I was in too much pain to drive, so I had to have a family member drive me, they were afraid of the conditions and so I took the only thing I thought could help me not have a heart attack from pain.  I eventually caught on the clonaz relieved the spasticity to a large degree and by proxy made my headache from an 8+ to a 4. 

 

My muscles would spasm tighter and tighter every day until I took another clonaz and it loosened them again. This cycle repeated.  I had to do this for a while, this is what got me re-dependent. The doses needed were pretty high. 

 

I found out reading online that long acting benzo's were treatment for spasticity. Doc didn't believe me. ER doc didn't believe me. 20 seconds on google, if they had the humility to check would have proven them wrong.  I asked them for ANYTHING that would take the pain away I did not CARE if it was clo. 

 

The pain was so extreme I would have HAPPILY got readdicted to clo if my doc was kind enough to give me enough to properly taper back down.  GP said 'this is a physical problem clonaz will not help you.'  Which was a total lie.  GP didn't know that though. And wouldn't listen to me. Treated me like a drug seeker even though this was only time I asked like this. 

 

I was tried on other things first so don't think I didn't try other things. Two and a half weeks in of these headaches and spasticity I was given Naproxen 1000mg a day - I had to go to a CLINIC to get this my GP did not help me she told me to 'go to ER' instead of making an appointment with her. It took about a week to help with the front part of my headache but it could not TOUCH the ER level headache every 3 days from the extreme spasticity because naproxen does nothing for spasticity. The CLINIC doctor told me I should be taking clonaz every night. I said nothing, but knew I couldn't do that because I didn't have enough to do this.  He may have been the only doctor who knew it worked. He didn't explain why he said this. 

 

I was given cyclobrenzapine.  BAD choice. It ramped up my anxiety and nerves to the nines because it's serotonin on top of my remeron which also affects serotonin and it was too weak to touch the spasticity in my injured neck.  Later learned that muscle relaxants rarely do help with this sort of thing.

 

I tried baclofen. It helped with lesser muscles.  After taking baclofen my LOWER back suddenly was sore, and mid back too I think, which was actually a GOOD sign, it meant whatever minor damage or pull was done to those muscles, they could finally relax, but it too was WAAAAAY to weak, weaker than the cyclos, to touch the neck injury/spasticity.

 

The cycles KIND of helped SOMETIMES, like once or twice they'd help for an hour or two, max, but when the spasticity reached super levels of excruciating pain (right when the clonaz wore off) they could NOT help me other than some very minor relief for a few minutes and then nothing. 

 

Maybe if I took them every day for three weeks they would have eventually started working on their own, but they gave me tremendous anxiety, so I couldn't take them.  I tried them for a few days and I started losing it.  I wasn't certain if a parked car was moving or not.  When I stopped using them all that stopped.

 

Long story short about the clonazepam depleting: I quickly started running out of my extra accumulated clonazepam since I was needing it so often and it such high doses - remember, before this I was taking it PRN for sleep for around 4 years, going 8 days, 11 days, or 13+ days without it at a time. So Had extras BEFORE this incident happened. But I quickly used them up after needing them for the spasticity and ER level headaches.  Until finally my only extras were a small pile of ANCIENT whites (2mgs) older than 10 years old I think, 10 years at least, I had them stashed away in the back of a closet. 

 

And as I said I got my refill in Feb, 25mg's (in 0.5 sized pills that can be broken in half) for 90 days.  (= 0.27777mg a day, so I guess that's actually 33 X 0.25's per 30 days, so 100 days worth of 0.25s. My mistake my math was off by 9 or 10 days earlier. 

 

Note: NOW my neck is actually healed enough that I stopped the naproxen about five days ago or so, six days, I had one day of rebound headache but then everything was mostly fine. My neck is still lose, not longer spastic.  Bit stiff, some soreness, but nothing like at the beginning.  The cycle of ER headaches seems over. 

 

Whereas I would wake up every day with my neck stiffer, more sore, and more cramped, etc. now it stays the same every day. Pretty much. So that's healing.  I don't need the clo for my neck anymore. 

 

Now I'm just re-addicted to clo and need it for sleep. Period. And to keep away clo withdrawals, which I did not have before the injury and all of this started.

 

So yah, there's my full story.

 

Please don't scare me.  Please be gentle if you reply to me.  I'm very vulnerable. I can't handle very much stress.  Please have mercy.

 

In Jesus's Name I pray, Amen

 

Also PS. Since you didn't get my story in other places on the forum I guess you didn't know. I DID have protracted withdrawal already before. I couldn't live through it again. I had psychosis for years. I was forced off of I think 2mg or maybe even 4mg a day, cold turkey, I don't remember now but I know it was high, and it was a part of what broke me. (Forced off because of a move, I was very young and a family member did not care or get me a doctor to transition or etc. and at the time I didn't know what happened, I didn't know about withdrawal yet, or etc. I thought I was just losing my mind) I spent years unable to leave my house. Thinking everything I ate or drank was poisoned, etc. You warning me I would suffer that AGAIN is part of what scared me off the forum.  I don't say it on here because I think it hurts others to mention the S word but I think about it like many of you have I'm sure. I just couldn't take that again. I've had a life of severe suffering.  I really can't handle any more. 

 

[[am...]]

As for me, I could not sleep when it is warm in the room and if there are some other irritants like light or noise. However, stress, irritation, anxiety or depression are the worst things that influence our capability to sleep. These are not physical factors but a psychological problem. So it is the right decision to address your doctor for help. Nevertheless, you should remember that our nervous system tends to get accustomed to meds, so you should change them from time to time. You should ask the dr for another prescription or you can find something with a similar effect. You could check some feedbacks, maybe you would find smth that would work for you. But, remember that the sleep is essential for wellbeing and good relationships with your nearest and dearest. Hope you’ll solve the problem with your insomnia.

 

Edit: Removed commercial link.

[[...]]

As for me, I could not sleep when it is warm in the room and if there are some other irritants like light or noise. However, stress, irritation, anxiety or depression are the worst things that influence our capability to sleep. These are not physical factors but a psychological problem. So it is the right decision to address your doctor for help. Nevertheless, you should remember that our nervous system tends to get accustomed to meds, so you should change them from time to time. You should ask the dr for another prescription or you can find something with a similar effect. You could check some feedbacks here Canadian Pharmacy, maybe you would find smth that would work for you. But, remember that the sleep is essential for wellbeing and good relationships with your nearest and dearest. Hope you’ll solve the problem with your insomnia.

 

I appreciate your concern and message Amanda. Unfortunately, it's not anything psychological but physiological for me.  Psychological can affect sleep but in the case of benzo withdrawal everything can be perfect and you will still not sleep. 

 

Benzo's mess with your actual sleep neurotransmitters and their receptors in your brain.  It messes with your adenosine AND GABA.  Two entirely essential neurotransmitters for sleep.  And who knows what other neurotransmitters that are sleep related it messes with.   

 

The problem with finding something with a similar effect is that it would be either a benzo or cross-tolerant.  (Like alcohol)  It needs to cover those essential sleep mechanisms.  Any drug that can help with sleep is addicting, and even the ones that are 'less' addicting are just messing with OTHER neurotransmitters creating a problem elsewhere.

 

The most common being anti-depressants that are messing with your serotonin, which is another important neurotransmitter for sleep.  And one that messes around more with things unrelated too.  So once you quit those you now have damage to yet another essential neurotransmitter system in your brain, and another one related to sleep.  You're kicking the can down the road and causing more problems.

 

Doctors don't know anything about this stuff. 

[[Ho...]]

 

    Regarding teas........I have been drinking them since I started my first taper (ASHTON) and went off 30mg of V by tapering off 2mg every week till I hit 10mg then it became very difficult.  I had to hold THREE (3) months......and now I am doing Liquid taper at 5% bcuz I am still super sensitive.  So now I am on 5% liquid taper and it's working well.  I have not had Setbacks from the teas though.  Not at all.  I've been tapering since July, 2018.  So if a setback is supposed to happen, it's not happening so far and I am still drinking the tea. 

 

  This just shows how different we all are.  Our bodies so individual.  For Example, others in here can rely on Beta Blockers...........yet, they will not work for me. 

I have tried many other things suggested in here and had severe, opposite reactions ...very negative when others have had good results to the same stuff. 

 

  I've been on the Keto Diet and Intermittent Fasting and it's helping me, yet there are others who say it has done more harm to them. 

 

  I also cannot tolerate antidepressants, they make me violently sick.  Yet, it has helped so many in here taper much faster.

 

  I'm not happy about the 5% taper and would love to increase it, but I am not able to get proper sleep.  Maybe 2 hours a night or if lucky, 3 hours.  And at this point in time, I don't think it is wise to increase my taper until I can sleep a little better.  But if you guys have any ideas, would gladly appreciate any advice on the insomnia. 

 

  I cannot tolerate Antihistamines.  They give me severe migraines and dry me out for days.......my nose bleeds from them.  So they are out too.  Seems I have nothing to turn to at this point and it scares me when I read so many in here suffer so much worse after you hit 4 milligrams or 3 milligrams.

[[Da...]]

T-man,

 

That's a rough story, I'm sorry you had to go through all that. It's tough enough handling these drugs and doctors when you have family support. I can't imagine doing it mostly alone.

 

I think your plan is good. It might be a bit of a steep drop from 5+mg every few days to .25mg everyday, but see how you handle it. Obviously there will be some sort of withdrawal, but you just have to adjust the dose and try to keep it tolerable. In a way it is encouraging that you are able to take such large doses without too many bad effects. When I withdrew I began having a paradoxical reaction once I got low on the dose. I didn't know you had to slow down so much near the end.

 

I agree, doctors have no idea what they are doing with benzos, probably all psychotropic drugs, really. They will just give them to people, not tell them they are addictive, then leave them on the drugs for years. Most of them have no idea how to withdraw people safely. It's a large scale medical disaster and I'm not sure they even realize it. They are going to face a ton of lawsuits (at least that's what I hope).

 

Sorry for scaring you. I will be more careful in the future.

 

Good luck with your plan. I look forward to hearing how it goes

[[Ra...]]

How many of you go for nights on end without sleep? What's the longest you've gone? What are your patterns like.  Do you feel 'okay'? Is it even possible to accept this? I would really love to hear from anyone with really serious experience. 

 

I understand this might be somewhat rare, but it's definitely one of the best places to ask, because it's much more common I'm guessing with the people here, due to Benzo withdrawal.

 

This is obviously one of the most frightening things you can experience. And it's something I've struggled with since I was 18.  Something broke in me, and I've had many things cause it ever since it first happened.

 

So this is how my insomnia works (usually caused by a withdrawal, but sometimes - random):

 

One night, for no reason, I will not be able to sleep. You'll all be familiar with this part: You feel like you WILL fall asleep, like things are normal, and then, it simply.... doesn't happen. It's not NORMAL insomnia.  No racing thoughts. Nothing.

 

If it's withdrawal induced, I can sort of detect these nights within an hour or so, or sometimes right away, because your brain feels 'lit' when you close your eyes. Regardless of thoughts or lack of thoughts.  I also have visual snow, so I notice that a lot stronger too, making it a little more obvious.

 

So after missing ONE night of sleep, if I don't abort that ONE night of sleeplessness with a STRONG med, I will stay awake for days, and days, and days on end, completely losing the ability to sleep no matter what, not even micro-sleeps, until I medically intervene with a super high dose of something or multiple somethings. I've been to ER over this.

 

I've NEVER let it go past a week, because I freak out too hard and either end up with a med from ER, or use my own supply when I have it. And I keep dosing until I am forced to sleep, and even then I'm terrified my body will forget how to sleep.

 

Of course you get those fears like, 'will I develop sporadic fatal insomnia? Lose the ability to sleep until I die?'.  I know it's rare, but you can't help but think that. I could totally use reassurance from people, but no lies to make me feel better please. If you have real experience of this etc. and have gotten through it somehow or, whatever. I would love to hear from you so bad.

 

[As a side note: Benzos are the only truly reliable med for me (usually mixed with some other sleep aid, I'm NOT saying this is safe or good, just want to be totally honest with you guys), in worse case scenerios I have taken up to 10mg of clo, only once though, and 7mg another time.  For example I'll wait for FULL peak (2 hours for clonaz) before I know for sure I need more. Often times I don't. Needing this much is SUPER rare, but I'm mentioning it here.  95% of the time or greater, one dose is enough, with remeron or something else.]

 

I know people on Meth get this, days without sleep, but then they crash, but it's stimulant induced, so I am not sure their experiences would be helpful in my case, since mine happens /without/ drugs, and I've never found a crashing point where my body actually sleeps without medicinal intervention, but I've never been able to bear it longer than a week without medicinal intervention. 

 

The first time this happened I think I went roughly 5 days, was given ativan and seroquel 30, the ativan was nothing to me, and seroquel 30 put me to sleep for a VERY short amount of time, with nightmares and lots of hypnagogia I think. (It was a long time ago). I remember hearing a bell ring, I think, like an auditory hallucination, then I was outtish.  I've since tried seroquel many times (never greater than 50) and never has it really put me to sleep again, I'm guessing it only worked because I had a solid 5 days with no sleep, or if it has contributed once in a while, it's hard to tell, because it never makes me feel drowsy. I've never had more than 50mg.

 

I am curious if a higher dose makes a difference? If anyone has experience with this, this would be really important to me.  Like, could mean the difference between having a life rather than feeling.. well tortured, to put it in less detail - you will guys understand, I'm guessing 

 

Sorry for the length. So stories, advice, and anyone who has had experience with seroquel as a rescue drug instead of your benzo, I'd love to hear form you all - thanks for your patience

 

Anyone?

 

Tman... can you add a signature so we know what meds you are taking, how much and for how long? Kind of hard to reply when we don't know what you are doing, etc. 

[[te...]]

I have had such trouble with sleep . No sleep one day then 1 to 3 hours for a couple days then back to no sleep . My cuts are tiny micro tapering because of symptoms . Don’t understand the sleep . Can’t fall asleep and if I do it’s for like 40 mins at a time . Can’t nap at all durning this entire taper . Feel really awful body aches everywhere . Sorry for the complaining .lisa