Are we telling people the wrong thing ?

[[me...]]

This thread is veering far off course now.

 

There are a couple of points I'd like to address. First of all, everyone agreed to follow rules and policies when joining the forum.  This includes being careful with profanity.  There are people who are sensitive to the use of profanity and while we don't edit out each and every occurrence, mostly due to the fact we have a small team to moderate a large forum,  it is important to post in a manner than is acceptable by all.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=108145.0

 

Please do not post profanity - disguised or otherwise - at this forum. Members will have differing sensitivities to the use of swear words, so it is better to avoid their use altogether. The use of profanity can also contribute to a less calm atmosphere. If a swear word is mild and infrequent, or if the member is particularly upset at the time, we might choose to let the rule infraction go unchallenged. Do not take any such examples of such leniency as a green light to post more of the same.

 

Secondly,  we are not an anti-benzo, anti-doctor, anti-medical profession forum. There is a place and a need for medicine and doctors in this world.  While some of us, perhaps many, have been subject to inferior medical care, your comments should only refer to your particular instance and not generally debase the entire medical profession. 

 

I know a little boy very well that is still undergoing periodic chemotherapy sessions to make certain his cancer stays in remission.  Where would he be without this care?

 

Anti-doctor, Anti-psychiatrist and Anti-medicine Comments

 

Whilst some of our members report negative experiences with doctors, psychiatrists, or the wider medical profession, and although we do not wish to outlaw comments about how members feel let down or mistreated in their personal medical care, you are not permitted to use this community as a platform to spread general anti-doctor or anti-psychiatry propaganda. Nor should you, unless you are posting a recommendation, name those involved in your healthcare.

 

Please read the referenced links for more information.

 

pianogirl

 

More than happy to apologise for the Profanity, it is not a socially accepted form of communication in some arenas of the "real world" so I can appreciate that this applies on the web.  Sorry.

 

However, I wont apologise for my hatred of the charlatans that call themselves doctors and hide behind their so called qualifications, especially those that patient blame once they themselves have inflicted the harm.

 

My experience has been that of Luke Montagu and his quote is exactly what happens in the majority of cases to the people with whom I have communicated with. There is an obvious fundamental flaw in the Psychiatric field and I don't see why there should be an issue on illuminating that fact from my experiences.

 

Further to this, it appears that you have assumed that maybe I am anti doctor or anti medicine when in fact this could not further from the truth. Unfortunately you have absolutely no idea of my current or past medical conditions. Doctors (i.e real doctors...surgeons) have resolved many health issues for me and have saved my life. When having surgery I was informed of the procedure, why it was to be done, how it was to be done, the success rate, the failure rate, the alternatives if it was unsuccessful, the risks with the surgery including anaesthesia, how recovery is expected to take place, etc.. All this was wrapped up in a nice little document for me to ingest over a couple of days then when I return I would sign the document only once I had been through it again with the surgeon and had any and all questions answered. And then I could sign if I wanted to proceed. Further to this, this was all free through the Australian Medicare system.

 

This however, is not the modus operandi of the prescribers dealing out these toxic drugs. Unfortunately for me I was misdiagnosed and harmed from these poisons prior to my surgical experience which in fact resolved the issue that was misdiagnosed, yet here I sit extremely unwell (like most on this site and others) from drugs I never needed for a condition that I never had not knowing when or if I will get well again. Had I had the experience if "informed consent" (for want of a better term) like the surgery I would not have been so fool hardy to have ingested toxic chemicals long term even though my instinct was not to, the manipulative, lying and very misinformed Doctor convinced me to do so. And might I had further to this, I was financially raped for this "privilege" and still continue to do so to this day while my prescribers have been on four, yes, four overseas holidays in the time period that I have been ill.

 

Let me repeat what I said in another post.....

 

"I was told that I had 3 separate mental disorders and would need to be on drugs the rest of my life. It was a garbage diagnosis based on absolutely no objective data. I never did have a mental disorder despite their insistence to the contrary."

 

If others believe that any psychiatric drugs will benefit them (other than extremely short indications and circumstances) than have at it but, if my anti-psychiatry and psych med stance based on my own experience stops one person from any or further harm then it has been more than worth being chastised for from the BB admin.

 

However, being the power base is definitely biased in your favour and understandably so, I can only follow the rules in which are provided.

 

Again, sorry for the profanity.

 

PSVT,

 

I'm sorry you've gone through so much. However, when you joined you DID agree to abide by the rules.

 

Pianogirl's post was civil and polite, but it was a warning.  We will not be tolerating anti-doctor or anti-medicine dogma on the forum anymore, and this applies to you as well as all other members.

 

So, anyone who continues to post this kind of thing after they've been warned not to do so will lose their ability to post freely, meaning all their posts will have to be pre-approved, or rejected, as the case may be. 

 

Megan918

Administrator

[[Lo...]]

I don't know. I have read the "nobody needs a benzo" sentiment in this thread. Someone could take those words literally. There may be a doctor out there reading this and thinking "Hmmm, maybe my patient doesn't need these anymore." Many people on benzos might be confused and may be lacking proper judgment needed as far as their situations. Some of them could interpret the "nobody needs a benzo" statement as, "I should get off of it right now!". That's what I meant.

 

Some people do "need" a benzo to help them stop taking a benzo. That isn't what I am saying.

 

I am not suggesting for second that people should not use a benzo to help taper from a benzo and I don't think that I implied such. Once again, my point is that benzos do not cure anything. Maybe someone does indeed need them to prevent seizures. There, there is an actually "need". But how many people here were taking them for that reason, to potentially save their life? I have been here for 8 years and I can't recall one. Most people were given these drugs for anxiety, sleep, or some other non-life threatening issue, many of which can be treated more effectively by other means.

 

So we can argue that there are legitimate instances where benzos are needed, but that doesn't change the fact that that isn't how they are used most of the time, and as soon as you leave yourself open to the idea that they are indeed needed for anything but tapering or preventing seizures that gives you an excuse to start taking them for any perceived need. I need to get some sleep so I need a benzo. I need to tone down this anxiety so I'm not a nervous wreck at the party so I need a benzo. I need to make these benzo wd symptoms go away so I can work so I need a benzo. It's a slippery slope, especially once it has been established that benzos have caused some kind of damage to your CNS.

 

It honestly amazes me how anyone who spends any amount of time on BB could look at it differently. I had a couple of instances in real life recently where people poo-pooed my advice about these drugs and I expect it from folks who have no perspective but it amazes me that anyone who has seen what these drugs can do can hold on to the belief that some people need these drug outside of these very limited circumstances.

 

Ok. But you've also mentioned that we (the ones severely harmed by benzos) are the outliers in one of your previous BB posts. The beliefs that you hold that nobody needs a benzo outside of saving their life and that we (the ones severely harmed by benzos) are the outliers are mutually contradictory. I don't think that general public or anyone reading this will actually be able to make sense of this. Apparently, if benzos are THAT dangerous that nobody should take them other than to save their own life, then it sends a message that benzodiazepine tranquilizers are dangerous drugs that anyone out there should avoid. Yet, saying that "we are the outliers" sends the message that there is something inherently wrong with us (those severely harmed by benzos) that is not present in the rest of the population. Therefore, the rest of the general population can go and take their benzos for their panic, insomnia, anxiety, social phobias, etc. without a whole lot of worry, because the people severely harmed by benzos are a tiny outlier minority who shouldn't be taken seriously. Or whatever problems benzos cause, they're rare and they won't happen to the person out there taking them for whatever reason.

 

I could definitely see why people in real life are ignoring your warnings and not taking you seriously. You know what you know, but the way you deliver your message sends conflicting information out there.

 

I think it comes down to what abcd has communicated to you. There are very many versions of "this". If you opened your mind to the possibility that there is a different version of "this" than "this" that you have, you would see why what you are saying will not resonate with everyone you try to warn about "this".

 

And the way one "needs" to take their benzo, as well as why one "needs" to take their benzo is exactly what leads (or doesn't lead) to different versions of "this"

[Guest [Sk...]]

I don't know. I have read the "nobody needs a benzo" sentiment in this thread. Someone could take those words literally. There may be a doctor out there reading this and thinking "Hmmm, maybe my patient doesn't need these anymore." Many people on benzos might be confused and may be lacking proper judgment needed as far as their situations. Some of them could interpret the "nobody needs a benzo" statement as, "I should get off of it right now!". That's what I meant.

 

Some people do "need" a benzo to help them stop taking a benzo. That isn't what I am saying.

 

I am not suggesting for second that people should not use a benzo to help taper from a benzo and I don't think that I implied such. Once again, my point is that benzos do not cure anything. Maybe someone does indeed need them to prevent seizures. There, there is an actually "need". But how many people here were taking them for that reason, to potentially save their life? I have been here for 8 years and I can't recall one. Most people were given these drugs for anxiety, sleep, or some other non-life threatening issue, many of which can be treated more effectively by other means.

 

So we can argue that there are legitimate instances where benzos are needed, but that doesn't change the fact that that isn't how they are used most of the time, and as soon as you leave yourself open to the idea that they are indeed needed for anything but tapering or preventing seizures that gives you an excuse to start taking them for any perceived need. I need to get some sleep so I need a benzo. I need to tone down this anxiety so I'm not a nervous wreck at the party so I need a benzo. I need to make these benzo wd symptoms go away so I can work so I need a benzo. It's a slippery slope, especially once it has been established that benzos have caused some kind of damage to your CNS.

 

It honestly amazes me how anyone who spends any amount of time on BB could look at it differently. I had a couple of instances in real life recently where people poo-pooed my advice about these drugs and I expect it from folks who have no perspective but it amazes me that anyone who has seen what these drugs can do can hold on to the belief that some people need these drug outside of these very limited circumstances.

 

Ok. But you've also mentioned that we (the ones severely harmed by benzos) are the outliers in one of your previous BB posts. The beliefs that you hold that nobody needs a benzo outside of saving their life and that we (the ones severely harmed by benzos) are the outliers are mutually contradictory. I don't think that general public or anyone reading this will actually be able to make sense of this. Apparently, if benzos are THAT dangerous that nobody should take them other than to save their own life, then it sends a message that benzodiazepine tranquilizers are dangerous drugs that anyone out there should avoid. Yet, saying that "we are the outliers" sends the message that there is something inherently wrong with us (those severely harmed by benzos) that is not present in the rest of the population. Therefore, the rest of the general population can go and take their benzos for their panic, insomnia, anxiety, social phobias, etc. without a whole lot of worry, because the people severely harmed by benzos are a tiny outlier minority who shouldn't be taken seriously. Or whatever problems benzos cause, they're rare and they won't happen to the person out there taking them for whatever reason.

 

I could definitely see why people in real life are ignoring your warnings and not taking you seriously. You know what you know, but the way you deliver your message sends conflicting information out there.

 

I think it comes down to what abcd has communicated to you. There are very many versions of "this".

If you opened your mind to the possibility that there is a different version of "this" than "this" that you have,

you would see why what you are saying will not resonate with everyone you try to warn about "this".

 

And the way one "needs" to take their benzo,

as well as why one "needs" to take their benzo is exactly what leads (or doesn't lead) to different versions of "this"

 

:thumbsup:  well written  LorazepamFree2015

[Guest [bl...]]

 

If others believe that any psychiatric drugs will benefit them (other than extremely short indications and circumstances) than have at it but, if my anti-psychiatry and psych med stance based on my own experience stops one person from any or further harm then it has been more than worth being chastised for from the BB admin.

 

PSVT, I am sorry to hear you were misdiagnosed, shoddily treated and that your withdrawal was not recognized as one by doctors.

 

It still does not mean, a) a majority of patients put on benzos will suffer intolerable withdrawals, b) psychiatrists are intentionally prescribing benzos to harm patients.

 

What is good for Dick might not be good for Phil.

 

But I agree that "an informed consent" (as you got one for your surgery) in psychiatry is lacking and is sorely wanted, regardless of how small our  population of sufferers might be.

 

Sometimes you have to step beyond your personal experiences and appreciate the big picture.

 

I do not mean to exonerate psychiatric doctors by any means but I would desist from concluding that they are in a "conspiracy" to hurt and profiteer from it.

[Guest [bl...]]

 

I think it comes down to what abcd has communicated to you. There are very many versions of "this". If you opened your mind to the possibility that there is a different version of "this" than "this" that you have, you would see why what you are saying will not resonate with everyone you try to warn about "this".

 

 

Love this!

[[Fl...]]

Ok. But you've also mentioned that we (the ones severely harmed by benzos) are the outliers in one of your previous BB posts. The beliefs that you hold that nobody needs a benzo outside of saving their life and that we (the ones severely harmed by benzos) are the outliers are mutually contradictory. I don't think that general public or anyone reading this will actually be able to make sense of this. Apparently, if benzos are THAT dangerous that nobody should take them other than to save their own life, then it sends a message that benzodiazepine tranquilizers are dangerous drugs that anyone out there should avoid. Yet, saying that "we are the outliers" sends the message that there is something inherently wrong with us (those severely harmed by benzos) that is not present in the rest of the population. Therefore, the rest of the general population can go and take their benzos for their panic, insomnia, anxiety, social phobias, etc. without a whole lot of worry, because the people severely harmed by benzos are a tiny outlier minority who shouldn't be taken seriously. Or whatever problems benzos cause, they're rare and they won't happen to the person out there taking them for whatever reason.

 

What does the subject of needing a benzo have to do with the fact that benzos do not affect everyone the same way? I never said that no one should ever take them except to save their life. I simply said that most people don't need them.

 

Benzos ARE that dangerous to some people. And unfortunately the only way to know if you are one of those people is to roll the dice and take them. Something is wrong with us. We are different in some way and that makes our bodies unable to reverse whatever changes the benzos made.

 

I could definitely see why people in real life are ignoring your warnings and not taking you seriously. You know what you know, but the way you deliver your message sends conflicting information out there.

 

Please point out exactly how I have contradicted myself. What you pointed out above, one has nothing to do with the other.

 

I think it comes down to what abcd has communicated to you. There are very many versions of "this". If you opened your mind to the possibility that there is a different version of "this" than "this" that you have, you would see why what you are saying will not resonate with everyone you try to warn about "this".

 

And the way one "needs" to take their benzo, as well as why one "needs" to take their benzo is exactly what leads (or doesn't lead) to different versions of "this"

 

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here.

 

The idea that we are all suffering from a different illness is beyond ludicrous. Everyone suffers from  different patterns of symptoms but you can't honestly believe that the root cause of these symptoms is substantially different from one person to the next or that whatever effective treatment that we might find to exist would be substantially different.

 

I have had almost 8 years to develop theories on why certain people believe certain things about this illness and why they react to it the way they do. When people doubt that their symptoms are being caused by the benzo damage it is because of fear. When people start shoveling down supplements it is because they need to feel some sense of control. But I have absolutely no clue where this "there are unlimited versions of 'this'" comes from. It sounds like postmodern new age jibberish. The kind of nebulous circular logic that people come up with when they have no good evidence to back up their ideas but are desperate to convince themselves that their theories have merit.

 

 

[Guest [sa...]]

If you want to send people to hell through Benzo PAWS, by all means, do it. See if i care. Waste their money with these useless drugs and kook Psychiatrists.

[[Lo...]]

Benzos ARE that dangerous to some people. And unfortunately the only way to know if you are one of those people is to roll the dice and take them. Something is wrong with us. We are different in some way and that makes our bodies unable to reverse whatever changes the benzos made.

I am not so terribly convinced that people are so fundamentally different. Benzos are dangerous to anyone who is/was not warned about the real possibility of crippling dependence and worsening conditions/health on them. To be safe, a person has to be open minded enough about the extreme dangers of these drugs before taking them. Because it takes being very skeptical about them to really be open to the idea that they can be highly dangerous drugs to take and stop taking.

 

Please point out exactly how I have contradicted myself. What you pointed out above, one has nothing to do with the other.

 

I think the contradiction (confusion) that I see comes from the fact that it's not clear to me from your argument (that nobody needs a benzo) whether that comes from a personal belief (i.e. "benzos are comfort drugs. Taking them is cheating in some way, etc.") or if it comes from a medical belief (i.e. "I've seen in myself and many others what benzos can do. I'd read stories. I'd read studies, articles. I'd talked to people. I prefer people do not take them, because I've seen horrific consequences. No one needs these drugs if they can cause such harm"). Someone who is otherwise in good health and hadn't taken benzos long term can "cheat" in different ways (i.e. drink coffee to cover up for lack of sleep), yet the consequences of this would not be nearly as dire as taking benzos long term. So I get that point that people shouldn't take benzos if they can help it. It basically goes that chemical-free living is healthy, which it is. But there are plenty of people who will use mild drugs in their life (coffee, etc.) who don't live especially healthy lifestyles yet never have any significant problems. So that's not always a predictor.

 

I personally think that benzos are extremely dangerous because they are simply misunderstood drugs by many patients and doctors. Many doctors do not know how to prescribe them properly and many patients have not been taught how to take them in a way to minimize harm or know that such harm is even possible (i.e. if a doctor starts someone with "take one every 24 hours", and you'd never taken them in your life long term, please find another doctor), as they'd never been given some of the most basic information about the dangers of this drug class.

 

I think it comes down to what abcd has communicated to you. There are very many versions of "this". If you opened your mind to the possibility that there is a different version of "this" than "this" that you have, you would see why what you are saying will not resonate with everyone you try to warn about "this".

 

And the way one "needs" to take their benzo, as well as why one "needs" to take their benzo is exactly what leads (or doesn't lead) to different versions of "this"

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here.

 

The idea that we are all suffering from a different illness is beyond ludicrous. Everyone suffers from  different patterns of symptoms but you can't honestly believe that the root cause of these symptoms is substantially different from one person to the next or that whatever effective treatment that we might find to exist would be substantially different.

 

I have had almost 8 years to develop theories on why certain people believe certain things about this illness and why they react to it the way they do. When people doubt that their symptoms are being caused by the benzo damage it is because of fear. When people start shoveling down supplements it is because they need to feel some sense of control. But I have absolutely no clue where this "there are unlimited versions of 'this'" comes from. It sounds like postmodern new age jibberish. The kind of nebulous circular logic that people come up with when they have no good evidence to back up their ideas but are desperate to convince themselves that their theories have merit.

 

Of course there are different versions of "this". How would you feel if you ended up with cognition that was pretty much intact, but ended up with such debilitating muscle paralysis and nerve pain issues that you couldn't get out of bed for 2 years? Because some people do suffer from that kind of benzo damage.

 

Or how about: the cognition and muscles are intact, but you are getting the worst panic attack in the world every minute and no breathing or relaxation technique or distraction puts a dent in it. Exercise makes panic 100 times worse. How would you deal with that one?

 

There's nothing new agey about this. People get cancer. It is a horrific disease. But that doesn't mean that they have the same kind, in the same form and the same intensity and with the same prognosis and that they should all approach it and treat it  in the exact same way. The treatment plan is going to be very different from one person to another. Otherwise, we'd all be eating the same foods , would be taking the same 2 vitamins or the same couple of supplements and the same CBT therapy and the same type of exercising routines. "But wait!". Some people in this are able to go for an occasional swim/run/jog while others can barely move from one room to another. Why is that? What is so circular about that logic that not everyone has been affected in the same way in the same areas with the same intensity? Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

 

I get what you are saying. Yes, the source (benzo) is the same for all of us. But when dealing with this for years, it is far too easy to generalize from self and assume that everyone else has the same collections of symptoms and suffering. Yet, there are people here that are dealing with symptoms you've most likely never experienced yourself, just as it is likely that there are people here that are dealing with symptoms that you would scratch your head about and say "Huh? That has nothing to do with the benzos!!" Only the stuff that I suffer from is benzo-related. What you have must be something else!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest [Sk...]]

Benzos ARE that dangerous to some people. And unfortunately the only way to know if you are one of those people is to roll the dice and take them. Something is wrong with us. We are different in some way and that makes our bodies unable to reverse whatever changes the benzos made.

I am not so terribly convinced that people are so fundamentally different. Benzos are dangerous to anyone who is/was not warned about the real possibility of crippling dependence and worsening conditions/health on them. To be safe, a person has to be open minded enough about the extreme dangers of these drugs before taking them. Because it takes being very skeptical about them to really be open to the idea that they can be highly dangerous drugs to take and stop taking.

 

Please point out exactly how I have contradicted myself. What you pointed out above, one has nothing to do with the other.

 

I think the contradiction (confusion) that I see comes from the fact that it's not clear to me from your argument (that nobody needs a benzo) whether that comes from a personal belief (i.e. "benzos are comfort drugs. Taking them is cheating in some way, etc.") or if it comes from a medical belief (i.e. "I've seen in myself and many others what benzos can do. I'd read stories. I'd read studies, articles. I'd talked to people. I prefer people do not take them, because I've seen horrific consequences. No one needs these drugs if they can cause such harm"). Someone who is otherwise in good health and hadn't taken benzos long term can "cheat" in different ways (i.e. drink coffee to cover up for lack of sleep), yet the consequences of this would not be nearly as dire as taking benzos long term. So I get that point that people shouldn't take benzos if they can help it. It basically goes that chemical-free living is healthy, which it is. But there are plenty of people who will use mild drugs in their life (coffee, etc.) who don't live especially healthy lifestyles yet never have any significant problems. So that's not always a predictor.

 

I personally think that benzos are extremely dangerous because they are simply misunderstood drugs by many patients and doctors. Many doctors do not know how to prescribe them properly and many patients have not been taught how to take them in a way to minimize harm or know that such harm is even possible (i.e. if a doctor starts someone with "take one every 24 hours", and you'd never taken them in your life long term, please find another doctor), as they'd never been given some of the most basic information about the dangers of this drug class.

 

I think it comes down to what abcd has communicated to you. There are very many versions of "this". If you opened your mind to the possibility that there is a different version of "this" than "this" that you have, you would see why what you are saying will not resonate with everyone you try to warn about "this".

 

And the way one "needs" to take their benzo, as well as why one "needs" to take their benzo is exactly what leads (or doesn't lead) to different versions of "this"

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here.

 

The idea that we are all suffering from a different illness is beyond ludicrous. Everyone suffers from  different patterns of symptoms but you can't honestly believe that the root cause of these symptoms is substantially different from one person to the next or that whatever effective treatment that we might find to exist would be substantially different.

 

I have had almost 8 years to develop theories on why certain people believe certain things about this illness and why they react to it the way they do. When people doubt that their symptoms are being caused by the benzo damage it is because of fear. When people start shoveling down supplements it is because they need to feel some sense of control. But I have absolutely no clue where this "there are unlimited versions of 'this'" comes from. It sounds like postmodern new age jibberish. The kind of nebulous circular logic that people come up with when they have no good evidence to back up their ideas but are desperate to convince themselves that their theories have merit.

 

Of course there are different versions of "this". How would you feel if you ended up with cognition that was pretty much intact, but ended up with such debilitating muscle paralysis and nerve pain issues that you couldn't get out of bed for 2 years? Because some people do suffer from that kind of benzo damage.

 

Or how about: the cognition and muscles are intact, but you are getting the worst panic attack in the world every minute and no breathing or relaxation technique or distraction puts a dent in it. Exercise makes panic 100 times worse. How would you deal with that one?

 

There's nothing new agey about this. People get cancer. It is a horrific disease. But that doesn't mean that they have the same kind, in the same form and the same intensity and with the same prognosis and that they should all approach it and treat it  in the exact same way. The treatment plan is going to be very different from one person to another. Otherwise, we'd all be eating the same foods , would be taking the same 2 vitamins or the same couple of supplements and the same CBT therapy and the same type of exercising routines. "But wait!". Some people in this are able to go for an occasional swim/run/jog while others can barely move from one room to another. Why is that? What is so circular about that logic that not everyone has been affected in the same way in the same areas with the same intensity? Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

 

I get what you are saying. Yes, the source (benzo) is the same for all of us. But when dealing with this for years, it is far too easy to generalize from self and assume that everyone else has the same collections of symptoms and suffering. Yet, there are people here that are dealing with symptoms you've most likely never experienced yourself, just as it is likely that there are people here that are dealing with symptoms that you would scratch your head about and say "Huh? That has nothing to do with the benzos!!" Only the stuff that I suffer from is benzo-related. What you have must be something else!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:thumbsup:  Great reply  :thumbsup:

[Guest [bl...]]

Benzos ARE that dangerous to some people. And unfortunately the only way to know if you are one of those people is to roll the dice and take them. Something is wrong with us. We are different in some way and that makes our bodies unable to reverse whatever changes the benzos made.

I am not so terribly convinced that people are so fundamentally different. Benzos are dangerous to anyone who is/was not warned about the real possibility of crippling dependence and worsening conditions/health on them. To be safe, a person has to be open minded enough about the extreme dangers of these drugs before taking them. Because it takes being very skeptical about them to really be open to the idea that they can be highly dangerous drugs to take and stop taking.

 

Please point out exactly how I have contradicted myself. What you pointed out above, one has nothing to do with the other.

 

I think the contradiction (confusion) that I see comes from the fact that it's not clear to me from your argument (that nobody needs a benzo) whether that comes from a personal belief (i.e. "benzos are comfort drugs. Taking them is cheating in some way, etc.") or if it comes from a medical belief (i.e. "I've seen in myself and many others what benzos can do. I'd read stories. I'd read studies, articles. I'd talked to people. I prefer people do not take them, because I've seen horrific consequences. No one needs these drugs if they can cause such harm"). Someone who is otherwise in good health and hadn't taken benzos long term can "cheat" in different ways (i.e. drink coffee to cover up for lack of sleep), yet the consequences of this would not be nearly as dire as taking benzos long term. So I get that point that people shouldn't take benzos if they can help it. It basically goes that chemical-free living is healthy, which it is. But there are plenty of people who will use mild drugs in their life (coffee, etc.) who don't live especially healthy lifestyles yet never have any significant problems. So that's not always a predictor.

 

I personally think that benzos are extremely dangerous because they are simply misunderstood drugs by many patients and doctors. Many doctors do not know how to prescribe them properly and many patients have not been taught how to take them in a way to minimize harm or know that such harm is even possible (i.e. if a doctor starts someone with "take one every 24 hours", and you'd never taken them in your life long term, please find another doctor), as they'd never been given some of the most basic information about the dangers of this drug class.

 

I think it comes down to what abcd has communicated to you. There are very many versions of "this". If you opened your mind to the possibility that there is a different version of "this" than "this" that you have, you would see why what you are saying will not resonate with everyone you try to warn about "this".

 

And the way one "needs" to take their benzo, as well as why one "needs" to take their benzo is exactly what leads (or doesn't lead) to different versions of "this"

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here.

 

The idea that we are all suffering from a different illness is beyond ludicrous. Everyone suffers from  different patterns of symptoms but you can't honestly believe that the root cause of these symptoms is substantially different from one person to the next or that whatever effective treatment that we might find to exist would be substantially different.

 

I have had almost 8 years to develop theories on why certain people believe certain things about this illness and why they react to it the way they do. When people doubt that their symptoms are being caused by the benzo damage it is because of fear. When people start shoveling down supplements it is because they need to feel some sense of control. But I have absolutely no clue where this "there are unlimited versions of 'this'" comes from. It sounds like postmodern new age jibberish. The kind of nebulous circular logic that people come up with when they have no good evidence to back up their ideas but are desperate to convince themselves that their theories have merit.

 

Of course there are different versions of "this". How would you feel if you ended up with cognition that was pretty much intact, but ended up with such debilitating muscle paralysis and nerve pain issues that you couldn't get out of bed for 2 years? Because some people do suffer from that kind of benzo damage.

 

Or how about: the cognition and muscles are intact, but you are getting the worst panic attack in the world every minute and no breathing or relaxation technique or distraction puts a dent in it. Exercise makes panic 100 times worse. How would you deal with that one?

 

There's nothing new agey about this. People get cancer. It is a horrific disease. But that doesn't mean that they have the same kind, in the same form and the same intensity and with the same prognosis and that they should all approach it and treat it  in the exact same way. The treatment plan is going to be very different from one person to another. Otherwise, we'd all be eating the same foods , would be taking the same 2 vitamins or the same couple of supplements and the same CBT therapy and the same type of exercising routines. "But wait!". Some people in this are able to go for an occasional swim/run/jog while others can barely move from one room to another. Why is that? What is so circular about that logic that not everyone has been affected in the same way in the same areas with the same intensity? Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

 

I get what you are saying. Yes, the source (benzo) is the same for all of us. But when dealing with this for years, it is far too easy to generalize from self and assume that everyone else has the same collections of symptoms and suffering. Yet, there are people here that are dealing with symptoms you've most likely never experienced yourself, just as it is likely that there are people here that are dealing with symptoms that you would scratch your head about and say "Huh? That has nothing to do with the benzos!!" Only the stuff that I suffer from is benzo-related. What you have must be something else!"

 

Awesome! Agree 100%

[[Al...]]

I agree that most likely it isn't an endless benzo withdrawal. However more drugs are irrelevant and probably the last thing these people need.  Most likely they have a veneral disease to treat such as  lyme disease, mercury, b12 deficiency, autoimmune disease, cancer, neurotoxicity, neuropathy etc. When I read people's list of protracted withdrawal symptoms it just screams neuropathy, not psychiatric issues. These people desperately need treatment. More poison would at best numb and distract them from getting the treatment they need, but it will probably make them worse, kindle their withdrawal issues, tax the liver, and advance the disease. All the psych drugs are neurotoxic and can only do harm - antidepressants aren't special. They are the last thing someone with chronic illness needs. This reminds of the horror movie where the girl is running from a killer and grabs the banana instead of the gun. Why do we have such a one tracked mind on that everything is psychiatry and drugs?

[[Fl...]]

So I get that point that people shouldn't take benzos if they can help it.

 

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. We agree on the idea that benzos should be avoided if possible, I just see too many people wanting to reserve the right to redefine what "need" actually means based on how they feel at any given time and that can turn into a slippery slope.

 

One person might need benzos to prevent seizures. That's a legitimate need. Another person might need benzos to allow them to taper safely from benzos. I get that. But then we start to get into murky waters. Someone could say that they "need" a benzo to prevent tolerance withdrawal. Ok, but if we assume that this person is "in trouble" and really should come off the drugs when does defining it as a need just turn into an excuse not to get off of them?

 

I understand Fi Addendum's point about there being no guarantees of completely healing after coming off of benzos, but despite his theories the general consensus seems to be that most people do heal up pretty good after coming off (most probably heal within a year or two) and knowing what we know about the damage these drugs can cause I firmly believe that most people would be better off getting off the drugs and staying as far away from them as possible.

 

So we can argue over the definition of "need" but the reality is that most people don't truly need these drugs, and when someone who is on them leaves a huge opening for themselves by using the definition of need loosely it isn't doing them any favors.

 

But there are plenty of people who will use mild drugs in their life (coffee, etc.) who don't live especially healthy lifestyles yet never have any significant problems. So that's not always a predictor.

 

Benzos are not a mild drug.

 

Of course there are different versions of "this". How would you feel if you ended up with cognition that was pretty much intact, but ended up with such debilitating muscle paralysis and nerve pain issues that you couldn't get out of bed for 2 years? Because some people do suffer from that kind of benzo damage.

 

That's like saying that there are different versions of gallstones because one person might have pain and another might have nausea and vomiting. No, both people have the same thing but their symptoms present themselves differently.

 

There's nothing new agey about this. People get cancer. It is a horrific disease. But that doesn't mean that they have the same kind, in the same form and the same intensity and with the same prognosis and that they should all approach it and treat it  in the exact same way. The treatment plan is going to be very different from one person to another.

 

Of course the treatment for one type of cancer may be different than it is for a different type of cancer. This is comparing apples to oranges. You are essentially trying to argue that each one of us has a different illness that was caused by the cessation of the same kind of drugs and that simply does not make sense.

 

If I had a stroke or someone hit me over the head with a 2x4 the symptoms might be similar to benzo damage but of course we wouldn't treat them the same way. Just because symptoms are different that doesn't mean the underlying cause is different, and just because the symptoms are similar or even the same, that doesn't mean that the illness is the same or that we should treat it the same way.

 

What is so circular about that logic that not everyone has been affected in the same way in the same areas with the same intensity? Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

 

No one is arguing that we aren't affected differently but that does not in any way prove that what we are suffering from is substantially different from one person to the next or that any potential treatment would be different.

 

This whole "we all have something different" argument was brought up in response to the idea that there is something other than time that substantially heals us. So if we are all suffering from a different illness, how do we go about defining that and what can each of us do to heal faster? All I see is a bunch of over complicated, convoluted, unproven theories. If it's as simple as you make it sound, where are the answers?

 

Yet, there are people here that are dealing with symptoms you've most likely never experienced yourself, just as it is likely that there are people here that are dealing with symptoms that you would scratch your head about and say "Huh? That has nothing to do with the benzos!!" Only the stuff that I suffer from is benzo-related. What you have must be something else!"

 

I have never said that anything "must be something else". Benzos cloud rational thinking and I believe that waves are often mis-attributed to outside influences when they are really just plain 'ole waves but I never put anything past benzos

[[of...]]

So I get that point that people shouldn't take benzos if they can help it.

 

 

I understand Fi Addendum's point about there being no guarantees of completely healing after coming off of benzos, but despite his theories the general consensus seems to be that most people do heal up pretty good after coming off (most probably heal within a year or two) and knowing what we know about the damage these drugs can cause I firmly believe that most people would be better off getting off the drugs and staying as far away from them as possible.

 

So we can argue over the definition of "need" but the reality is that most people don't truly need these drugs, and when someone who is on them leaves a huge opening for themselves by using the definition of need loosely it isn't doing them any favors.

 

I guess my point in starting this thread was, in essence, me seeking reassurance that I am doing the right thing by tapering off. No doctor has ever told me to come off of them. I decided I must have grown tolerant after doing basic research on the weird symptoms and decided to taper. I don’t trust my judgement right now about this because I feel completely crazy.

 

I haven’t been stable for years on them... but have had pretty productive, functional, and at least sometimes relatively enjoyable times.  I am someone who had pretty severe anxiety before taking them, but this is definitely the worst I’ve ever been.

 

So how do I know I don’t “need” them ? I’m terrified and non functional.  I fight every day to not ask the dr to switch me onto some combo that will make life better. Im tired. It seemed like a pretty sound question to me. Maybe “need” was a poor choice of words in terms of needs like food, water, shelter, etc.

 

I’m honestly not trying to be sarcastic or argumentative. I’m seeking advice from my peers in similar situations and those who have done a lot more in depth reasearch than me.

[Guest [Sk...]]

 

I guess my point in starting this thread was, in essence, me seeking reassurance that I am doing the right thing by tapering off. No doctor has ever told me to come off of them. I decided I must have grown tolerant after doing basic research on the weird symptoms and decided to taper. I don’t trust my judgement right now about this because I feel completely crazy.

 

I haven’t been stable for years on them... but have had pretty productive, functional, and at least sometimes relatively enjoyable times.  I am someone who had pretty severe anxiety before taking them, but this is definitely the worst I’ve ever been.

 

So how do I know I don’t “need” them ? I’m terrified and non functional.  I fight every day to not ask the dr to switch me onto some combo that will make life better. Im tired. It seemed like a pretty sound question to me. Maybe “need” was a poor choice of words in terms of needs like food, water, shelter, etc.

 

I’m honestly not trying to be sarcastic or argumentative. I’m seeking advice from my peers in similar situations and those who have done a lot more in depth reasearch than me.

 

as you can see here on this thread,

there are many and varied opinions,

and many  posts that  can create even more doubt.  :'(

 

We are all different and are left with differing symptoms,

plus are differing in ages,

differing time on or off them,

differing  life circumstances, etc etc

so we have to listen to our own bodies

and do our best based on our own needs. 

 

maybe success stories that you can relate to

by people whom have healed, I find are perhaps

better for me, and are more reassuring for me 

 

[[...]]

 

There's nothing new agey about this. People get cancer. It is a horrific disease. But that doesn't mean that they have the same kind, in the same form and the same intensity and with the same prognosis and that they should all approach it and treat it  in the exact same way. The treatment plan is going to be very different from one person to another.

 

Of course the treatment for one type of cancer may be different than it is for a different type of cancer. This is comparing apples to oranges. You are essentially trying to argue that each one of us has a different illness that was caused by the cessation of the same kind of drugs and that simply does not make sense.

 

If I had a stroke or someone hit me over the head with a 2x4 the symptoms might be similar to benzo damage but of course we wouldn't treat them the same way. Just because symptoms are different that doesn't mean the underlying cause is different, and just because the symptoms are similar or even the same, that doesn't mean that the illness is the same or that we should treat it the same way.

 

What is so circular about that logic that not everyone has been affected in the same way in the same areas with the same intensity? Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

 

No one is arguing that we aren't affected differently but that does not in any way prove that what we are suffering from is substantially different from one person to the next or that any potential treatment would be different.

 

This whole "we all have something different" argument was brought up in response to the idea that there is something other than time that substantially heals us. So if we are all suffering from a different illness, how do we go about defining that and what can each of us do to heal faster? All I see is a bunch of over complicated, convoluted, unproven theories. If it's as simple as you make it sound, where are the answers?

 

FG, you're making me wonder whether, perhaps at this stage of the game, you're now just too closed off to your own ideas and theories and aren't willing to apply big picture thinking.  Otherwise maybe you're having some fun with us and are being deliberately argumentative and obtuse.  Are you?  

 

LF did a fantastic job of articulating and, for the life of me, I also am unable to understand why it's so difficult for you to grasp that we've all incurred different injuries - which, by the way, is a much more appropriate word than "illness" IMO - and, hence, require different individualized treatments on an individual case by case basis. 

 

Just one last example for you to ponder.

 

How about we take a pair of young teenage twin brothers.  They're on their skateboards and collide into one another.  They both break their right arms.  I'm sure you fully appreciate that even in this simple, simple scenario - a fractured arm - that it is entirely possible/probable that each brother will have sustained different injuries - within the realm of orthopedics - and, depending on the complexity of their *INDIVIDUAL* fractures, they will require different treatment, i.e. surgical procedure with EITHER pins OR plates OR rods, OR perhaps no surgery but EITHER a splint OR a cast OR a brace OR xyz. 

 

I can only assume you can also grasp that - depending on the technicalities of each of their unique fractures, they may heal within different time frames and may require different physical therapy exercises *tailored* to their individual needs?

 

So then!  How is it that anyone can argue how this "benzo withdrawal" phenomenon is - in reality - so incredibly individualistic and complex and multi-faceted?  You say: No one is arguing that we aren't affected differently but that does not in any way prove that what we are suffering from is substantially different from one person to the next or that any potential treatment would be different".  

 

Meaning, from your perspective it's inconsequential that:

 

a)  Pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics.  Meaning, not only the effect these drugs have on the body, but the way our individual bodies absorb, distribute, metabolise and excrete these chemicals.

b)  We all have our own unique neurochemical environments (which includes a variety of other drugs - psychotropics and/or non-psychotropics - in the system)

c)  We all have different genetic predispositions, both physical and psychological

d)  We all took different benzos with different mechanisms of action, different doses, different lengths of time

e)  We all underwent different tapering methods, including some who cold turkeyed and/or reinstated

f)  We all have our own mix of a possible 3281 different symptoms ranging from panic attacks to insomnia to contracted muscles to dizziness to burning/prickling pain to bloating/constipation ... as in, symptoms affecting every body system

g, h, i, j, k ....)  And on, and on, and on, and on, and on ...

 

How in the world can you claim that we have NOT all been injured in different ways and that what we are suffering from is NOT substantially different from one person to the next or that any potential treatment would be different?!!!  How in the world could you NOT treat panic attacks differently from bloating/constipation?

 

You're dead-set that there's a one-size-fits-all solution.  And your solution? ...

 

Do nothing!!!  Everyone must do NOTHING.  No matter what ails you!  Only TIME will cure you ... meaning just get older, that's all we have to do, just breathe oxygen and stay alive.

[Guest [Sk...]]

 

There's nothing new agey about this. People get cancer. It is a horrific disease. But that doesn't mean that they have the same kind, in the same form and the same intensity and with the same prognosis and that they should all approach it and treat it  in the exact same way. The treatment plan is going to be very different from one person to another.

 

Of course the treatment for one type of cancer may be different than it is for a different type of cancer. This is comparing apples to oranges. You are essentially trying to argue that each one of us has a different illness that was caused by the cessation of the same kind of drugs and that simply does not make sense.

 

If I had a stroke or someone hit me over the head with a 2x4 the symptoms might be similar to benzo damage but of course we wouldn't treat them the same way. Just because symptoms are different that doesn't mean the underlying cause is different, and just because the symptoms are similar or even the same, that doesn't mean that the illness is the same or that we should treat it the same way.

 

What is so circular about that logic that not everyone has been affected in the same way in the same areas with the same intensity? Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

 

No one is arguing that we aren't affected differently but that does not in any way prove that what we are suffering from is substantially different from one person to the next or that any potential treatment would be different.

 

This whole "we all have something different" argument was brought up in response to the idea that there is something other than time that substantially heals us. So if we are all suffering from a different illness, how do we go about defining that and what can each of us do to heal faster? All I see is a bunch of over complicated, convoluted, unproven theories. If it's as simple as you make it sound, where are the answers?

 

FG, you're making me wonder whether, perhaps at this stage of the game, you're now just too closed off to your own ideas and theories and aren't willing to apply big picture thinking.  Otherwise maybe you're having some fun with us and are being deliberately argumentative and obtuse.  Are you?  

 

LF did a fantastic job of articulating and, for the life of me, I also am unable to understand why it's so difficult for you to grasp that we've all incurred different injuries - which, by the way, is a much more appropriate word than "illness" IMO - and, hence, require different individualized treatments on an individual case by case basis. 

 

Just one last example for you to ponder.

 

How about we take a pair of young teenage twin brothers.  They're on their skateboards and collide into one another.  They both break their right arms.  I'm sure you fully appreciate that even in this simple, simple scenario - a fractured arm - that it is entirely possible/probable that each brother will have sustained different injuries - within the realm of orthopedics - and, depending on the complexity of their *INDIVIDUAL* fractures, they will require different treatment, i.e. surgical procedure with EITHER pins OR plates OR rods, OR perhaps no surgery but EITHER a splint OR a cast OR a brace OR xyz. 

 

I can only assume you can also grasp that - depending on the technicalities of each of their unique fractures, they may heal within different time frames and may require different physical therapy exercises *tailored* to their individual needs?

 

So then!  How is it that anyone can argue how this "benzo withdrawal" phenomenon is - in reality - so incredibly individualistic and complex and multi-faceted?  You say: No one is arguing that we aren't affected differently but that does not in any way prove that what we are suffering from is substantially different from one person to the next or that any potential treatment would be different".  

 

Meaning, from your perspective it's inconsequential that:

 

a)  Pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics.  Meaning, not only the effect these drugs have on the body, but the way our individual bodies absorb, distribute, metabolise and excrete these chemicals.

b)  We all have our own unique neurochemical environments (which includes a variety of other drugs - psychotropics and/or non-psychotropics - in the system)

c)  We all have different genetic predispositions, both physical and psychological

d)  We all took different benzos with different mechanisms of action, different doses, different lengths of time

e)  We all underwent different tapering methods, including some who cold turkeyed and/or reinstated

f)  We all have our own mix of a possible 3281 different symptoms ranging from panic attacks to insomnia to contracted muscles to dizziness to burning/prickling pain to bloating/constipation ... as in, symptoms affecting every body system

g, h, i, j, k ....)  And on, and on, and on, and on, and on ...

 

How in the world can you claim that we have NOT all been injured in different ways and that what we are suffering from is NOT substantially different from one person to the next or that any potential treatment would be different?!!!  How in the world could you NOT treat panic attacks differently from bloating/constipation?

 

You're dead-set that there's a one-size-fits-all solution.  And your solution? ...

 

Do nothing!!!  Everyone must do NOTHING.  No matter what ails you!  Only TIME will cure you ... meaning just get older, that's all we have to do, just breathe oxygen and stay alive.

 

:clap:   had hoped you would come along. Your posts often say what I cant  Thanks abcd 

[[Al...]]

Do nothing!!!  Everyone must do NOTHING.  No matter what ails you!  Only TIME will cure you ... meaning just get older, that's all we have to do, just breathe oxygen and stay alive.

I agree, I hate this attitude around here. If you've just gotten worse and worse and have ten times more symptoms than you had in acute, then you have a disease. If you haven't healed after 2 years then it's time to see the doctor, and you should probably be proactive and continuously see doctors the whole time before then too.  This forum is dangerous, has harmed tens of thousands of people - It encourages disease by making people complacent about their health and the progression of a serious illness. Almost every amateur health community on the internet is guilty of this too - everything is about their disease and working strictly within their system of protocols whether that system deals with heavy metals, genetic mutations, tick borne illness, hormones, or psychiatric drugs/withdrawals. And worst of all they all seem to share the attitude that getting worse for indefinite amounts of time is acceptable or a sign of healing - there is no way out and method of undiagnosing yourself from their illness and their train of thought.

[[Lo...]]

Thanks, abcd. I concur. I recently kept thinking "geez, this forum used to be a more practically driven place where people used to share about their day-to-day struggles and actively exchange ideas how to help one another and so forth. Nowadays, I see many more theoretical meanderings and discussions along the lines of "benzos are bad for you. They are really bad for you. The 'need' for them needs to be carefully articulated, etc. etc. Nobody 'needs' them"

 

Fine. That's all good. But if nobody needs benzos, where are the tools here to help people achieve the status of not needing them? Lately, there's just so much theoretical talk with not enough practical advice as to how to help people achieve that goal of benzo freedom. What happened to sharing coping techniques and experiences with different situations, as well as help with practical tips to deal with anxiety, insomnia, depression, muscle issues, dizziness, etc. Dealing with grief, anger, sadness, isolation???

 

I would love to see this forum return to where it once was. A practically-minded place where people who feel unsupported can get support that they need. If people don't have the emotional support to get off their benzos in spite of their deepest wishes to do so, can one blame them for not wanting to get off completely? Also, for those who cold-turkey'd and/or tapered and are suffering months or years out, wouldn't it be better to also look into lifestyles, diets, coping skills, etc. instead of just talking about the dangers of what had already occurred in the past?

 

I am sad because I see so much inertia and stagnation. There are so many people suffering, and their needs are not being sufficiently met by this forum in the form that it exists in 2018. Something needs to change.

 

Now I need to get up and drink some cold water because I feel dehydrated and am realizing that TIME alone will not cure my need to drink water

 

....

....

 

And on the way back, I took a banana because it seems that my body needs potassium which TIME alone will not replenish.

[[pi...]]

 

I would love to see this forum return to where it once was. A practically-minded place where people who feel unsupported can get support that they need. If people don't have the emotional support to get off their benzos in spite of their deepest wishes to do so, can one blame them for not wanting to get off completely? Also, for those who cold-turkey'd and/or tapered and are suffering months or years out, wouldn't it be better to also look into lifestyles, diets, coping skills, etc. instead of just talking about the dangers of what had already occurred in the past?

 

 

LF,

 

I agree with your statement in part. I do think that there is still good support and encouragement going on here on the forum. However, there is now a lot of theoretical debate as well as members who wax philosophical instead of visiting the boards where they might be able to offer advice, help, encouragement.... all the things that a peer support forum is designed to do.

 

Frankly, LF, there is really a minority who is using the forum and the boards for their personal soapbox. If you only visit the Chewing the Fat Board, the Protracted Board and a couple of others, you don't see the day to day support that is ongoing. 

 

Many times I personally have urged people to move on from a particular subject and get back to the nitty gritty of BB, helping others. We have many members who do just this. Case in point, Jim Hawk, who on his own time developed a template for a taper as well as a tutorial video. He also responds quickly to anyone who has a question for him. 

 

LF, if you wish the forum to 'return to where it once was', then everyone needs to contribute.

 

pianogirl

 

 

[[Fi...]]

 

I guess my point in starting this thread was, in essence, me seeking reassurance that I am doing the right thing by tapering off. No doctor has ever told me to come off of them. I decided I must have grown tolerant after doing basic research on the weird symptoms and decided to taper. I don’t trust my judgement right now about this because I feel completely crazy.

 

I haven’t been stable for years on them... but have had pretty productive, functional, and at least sometimes relatively enjoyable times.  I am someone who had pretty severe anxiety before taking them, but this is definitely the worst I’ve ever been.

 

So how do I know I don’t “need” them ? I’m terrified and non functional.  I fight every day to not ask the dr to switch me onto some combo that will make life better. Im tired. It seemed like a pretty sound question to me. Maybe “need” was a poor choice of words in terms of needs like food, water, shelter, etc.

 

I’m honestly not trying to be sarcastic or argumentative. I’m seeking advice from my peers in similar situations and those who have done a lot more in depth reasearch than me.

 

as you can see here on this thread,

there are many and varied opinions,

and many  posts that  can create even more doubt.  :'(

 

We are all different and are left with differing symptoms,

plus are differing in ages,

differing time on or off them,

differing  life circumstances, etc etc

so we have to listen to our own bodies

and do our best based on our own needs. 

 

maybe success stories that you can relate to

by people whom have healed, I find are perhaps

better for me, and are more reassuring for me 

 

 

If you've made your decision to cease utilizing benzodiazepines to help relieve your symptoms and now you are simply looking for reassurance to continue down the path of that decision, then you will find reassurances nestled among the 'success stories' and among the mantras repeated among some bb members who are following down similar paths.

 

If you are uncertain whether your decision to cease benzodiazepines is in your best interests and whether your quality of life will be improved or preserved, I suggest you look for verifiable documented evidence. You won't find verifiable documented evidence among anonymous postings on an internet forum.

 

Some may ask, where can one find verifiable documented evidence? imo, the scientific community and the scientific method may be better sources for such evidence than anonymous postings. However, based upon my searches, there are few scientific studies that compare the quality of lives of those who continue maintenance doses of benzodiazepines with the quality of lives of those who cease the use of benzodiazepines.

 

The results from the best published studies I've found is shared here:

 

https://sci-hub.tw/10.1093/arclin/acx120

 

"Abstract

 

Objective: This study presents an updated meta-analysis of the effects of benzodiazepines on cognitive functioning in long-term, current

users of these agents, those who have recently withdrawn and on those who have successfully abstained following withdrawal. The study represents

an update of the previous meta-analyses published by our group.

 

Method: A comprehensive search of the computerized databases Medline and PsycINFO was undertaken to identify studies that assessed

the cognitive effects of benzodiazepines published up to 28 November 2016 (the date of the last update). Nineteen studies (eight studies

published since the previous meta-analyses and 11 studies included in the previous studies) were included.

 

Results: The results of the analysis for current users revealed statistically significant, negative effects for the cognitive domains of working

memory, processing speed, divided attention, visuoconstruction, recent memory, and expressive language. For those who had withdrawn

and successfully abstained following withdrawal, deficits were observed for the domains of recent memory, processing speed, visuoconstruction,

divided attention, working memory, and sustained attention.

 

Conclusions: The results of the study are important in that they corroborate the mounting evidence that a range of neuropsychological

functions are impaired as a result of long-term benzodiazepine use, and that these are likely to persist even following withdrawal. The findings

highlight the residual neurocognitive compromise associated with long-term benzodiazepine therapy as well as the important clinical

implications of these results.

 

Keywords: Benzodiazepines; Meta-analysis; Cognitive effects; Sleep disorders; Anxiety disorders"

 

best wishes

[[Ca...]]

 

I guess my point in starting this thread was, in essence, me seeking reassurance that I am doing the right thing by tapering off. No doctor has ever told me to come off of them. I decided I must have grown tolerant after doing basic research on the weird symptoms and decided to taper. I don’t trust my judgement right now about this because I feel completely crazy.

 

I haven’t been stable for years on them... but have had pretty productive, functional, and at least sometimes relatively enjoyable times.  I am someone who had pretty severe anxiety before taking them, but this is definitely the worst I’ve ever been.

 

So how do I know I don’t “need” them ? I’m terrified and non functional.  I fight every day to not ask the dr to switch me onto some combo that will make life better. Im tired. It seemed like a pretty sound question to me. Maybe “need” was a poor choice of words in terms of needs like food, water, shelter, etc.

 

I’m honestly not trying to be sarcastic or argumentative. I’m seeking advice from my peers in similar situations and those who have done a lot more in depth reasearch than me.

 

as you can see here on this thread,

there are many and varied opinions,

and many  posts that  can create even more doubt.  :'(

 

We are all different and are left with differing symptoms,

plus are differing in ages,

differing time on or off them,

differing  life circumstances, etc etc

so we have to listen to our own bodies

and do our best based on our own needs. 

 

maybe success stories that you can relate to

by people whom have healed, I find are perhaps

better for me, and are more reassuring for me 

 

 

If you've made your decision to cease utilizing benzodiazepines to help relieve your symptoms and now you are simply looking for reassurance to continue down the path of that decision, then you will find reassurances nestled among the 'success stories' and among the mantras repeated among some bb members who are following down similar paths.

 

If you are uncertain whether your decision to cease benzodiazepines is in your best interests and whether your quality of life will be improved or preserved, I suggest you look for verifiable documented evidence. You won't find verifiable documented evidence among anonymous postings on an internet forum.

 

Some may ask, where can one find verifiable documented evidence? imo, the scientific community and the scientific method may be better sources for such evidence than anonymous postings. However, based upon my searches, there are few scientific studies that compare the quality of lives of those who continue maintenance doses of benzodiazepines with the quality of lives of those who cease the use of benzodiazepines.

 

The results from the best published studies I've found is shared here:

 

https://sci-hub.tw/10.1093/arclin/acx120

 

"Abstract

 

Objective: This study presents an updated meta-analysis of the effects of benzodiazepines on cognitive functioning in long-term, current

users of these agents, those who have recently withdrawn and on those who have successfully abstained following withdrawal. The study represents

an update of the previous meta-analyses published by our group.

 

Method: A comprehensive search of the computerized databases Medline and PsycINFO was undertaken to identify studies that assessed

the cognitive effects of benzodiazepines published up to 28 November 2016 (the date of the last update). Nineteen studies (eight studies

published since the previous meta-analyses and 11 studies included in the previous studies) were included.

 

Results: The results of the analysis for current users revealed statistically significant, negative effects for the cognitive domains of working

memory, processing speed, divided attention, visuoconstruction, recent memory, and expressive language. For those who had withdrawn

and successfully abstained following withdrawal, deficits were observed for the domains of recent memory, processing speed, visuoconstruction,

divided attention, working memory, and sustained attention.

 

Conclusions: The results of the study are important in that they corroborate the mounting evidence that a range of neuropsychological

functions are impaired as a result of long-term benzodiazepine use, and that these are likely to persist even following withdrawal. The findings

highlight the residual neurocognitive compromise associated with long-term benzodiazepine therapy as well as the important clinical

implications of these results.

 

Keywords: Benzodiazepines; Meta-analysis; Cognitive effects; Sleep disorders; Anxiety disorders"

 

best wishes

....And YET here we ALL are... Collectively voices that matter... On a Benzodiazipam WITHDRAWAL SUPPORT forum...

 

Just saying...

 

 

[[Fi...]]

"....And YET here we ALL are... Collectively voices that matter... On a Benzodiazipam WITHDRAWAL SUPPORT forum...

 

Just saying..."

 

There are not many alternative resources from which we can objectively compare our symptoms & choices of actions with others.

 

[[pi...]]

Do nothing!!!  Everyone must do NOTHING.  No matter what ails you!  Only TIME will cure you ... meaning just get older, that's all we have to do, just breathe oxygen and stay alive.

I agree, I hate this attitude around here. If you've just gotten worse and worse and have ten times more symptoms than you had in acute, then you have a disease. If you haven't healed after 2 years then it's time to see the doctor, and you should probably be proactive and continuously see doctors the whole time before then too.  This forum is dangerous, has harmed tens of thousands of people - It encourages disease by making people complacent about their health and the progression of a serious illness. Almost every amateur health community on the internet is guilty of this too - everything is about their disease and working strictly within their system of protocols whether that system deals with heavy metals, genetic mutations, tick borne illness, hormones, or psychiatric drugs/withdrawals. And worst of all they all seem to share the attitude that getting worse for indefinite amounts of time is acceptable or a sign of healing - there is no way out and method of undiagnosing yourself from their illness and their train of thought.

 

This statement is not true.  Over the years BB has helped many people, people who have had no where to turn for information and support because they wish to stop taking benzodiazepines. Often, they are given no practical, viable information to do this in a safe manner.  I've been here a lot of years and continue to be here because the need is still there.

 

BB was instrumental to my recovery.  I was healthy before being given benzos and I am healthy now. Had I not found this forum and learned a lot, being inspired to learn by members like perseverence, there might not be a healthy me today. 

 

Certainly in a forum this large and diverse you might find some people who avoid medical care.  In some cases I don't blame them.  After undergoing many medical tests myself, some fairly invasive, I know that it can be discouraging to see normal results but still feel sick.  However, I am glad that I had the tests because it validated that what I was feeling was due to withdrawal. My doctor also agreed.

 

Withdrawal taught me to be proactive about my health and everything I put in my body.  This was a decision I made. Each person needs to make their own choices about their health and wellbeing. 

 

BB is not for everyone and that is fine.  Each person will use the forum in a manner that best suits their needs. Some just read, some search for pertinent information, some post a little while others post a lot.

 

If you take the time to read some of the Success Stories, you will read how many people found BB to be a safe oasis during a very difficult time. A place to find those who understand the withdrawal process and are willing to give of themselves to help others, all the while going through withdrawal themselves.

 

pianogirl

 

[[lo...]]

Do nothing!!!  Everyone must do NOTHING.  No matter what ails you!  Only TIME will cure you ... meaning just get older, that's all we have to do, just breathe oxygen and stay alive.

I agree, I hate this attitude around here. If you've just gotten worse and worse and have ten times more symptoms than you had in acute, then you have a disease. If you haven't healed after 2 years then it's time to see the doctor, and you should probably be proactive and continuously see doctors the whole time before then too.  This forum is dangerous, has harmed tens of thousands of people - It encourages disease by making people complacent about their health and the progression of a serious illness. Almost every amateur health community on the internet is guilty of this too - everything is about their disease and working strictly within their system of protocols whether that system deals with heavy metals, genetic mutations, tick borne illness, hormones, or psychiatric drugs/withdrawals. And worst of all they all seem to share the attitude that getting worse for indefinite amounts of time is acceptable or a sign of healing - there is no way out and method of undiagnosing yourself from their illness and their train of thought.

 

Unfortunately the medical profession offers nothing at least that is my experience in the UK, have seen 4 specialists, seeing 5th one next week,  one has to have money to explore other avenues.  My symptoms are the result of benzo withdrawal, there is no doubt about it but of course this has caused high levels of toxicity in my body.  GP controls access to specialists, long waiting lists.  Benzos Buddies has been hugely valuable to me and to many others.  I was too unwell for 3 years to even keep medical appointments, I can do that now but I have been offered nothing of note to help me recover.  There is a wide range of advice and opinions here,  I would say however that those of us with severe cognitive impairment are at a huge disadvantage in trying to make sense of much of this advice.  I still cannot read very much and have to pick up what I can as best I can.

 

I think it was probably a mistake that I came off benzos at all, I am not sure a slow taper would have been better, but have no way of knowing.  I also think I made a mistake in tapering off Effexor ... I had no idea how very ill I was due to disassociation of the mind for 3 years, and I was not really in a fit state to make such a decision.  But it is what I did and I cannot change it.  Our decisions are being made sometimes when very unwell and they may not be the correct ones.  I was influenced by the idea that one needed to be off all drugs to recover, that may be true, but the second withdrawal may have damaged me further. If the medical profession took its responsibilities seriously these forums would not be so necessary.  They would still have a complementary role though, a very valuable one at that.

 

 

[[Rx...]]

Lest anyone forget many helpful tips for healing are passed along in pms in BB as well.  If one adopts the mentality of shopping around to look for what is helpful to one personally here, I think that should help anyone frustrated.