Are we telling people the wrong thing ?

[[Fl...]]

For these people, there is a true need to continue benzodiazepines or likely die or live an intolerable life until death.

 

This statement is full of assumptions. Who says that anyone will die or live an intolerable life until death? Everything you say is based on the assumption that you can't stop taking these drugs, but how do you know that?

 

You might believe that if you stop taking them you will die or you will have debilitating symptoms for the rest of your life, but this is 100% speculation. Some people who stop benzos may very well have benzo related symptoms indefinitely but all of the evidence I have seen points to the idea that there are very, very few people who suffer from severe symptoms after a certain period of time and there aren't too many people who end up dying.

[[Fi...]]

"...there aren't too many people who end up dying." I'm not referring to death by 'natural' causes eg. the chris cornell case. Additionally, cases can be made for those who can not lead normal lives after long-term benzo dependence. Reference again the cornell case, could he have continued to perform & earn a living as a performer if he had severe agoraphobia or stage fright? Among my personal acquaintances, I know of several who could not continue in their lines of work and support their families in the absence of maintenance prescriptions of benzodiazepines.

[Guest [Sk...]]

That same logic would also say no one ever needs an antibiotic (or a pain killer, or a sedative, or...)

 

I would argue that antibiotics could fall under the need category as this is a class of drug that can save your life, but the point is that the word "need" is thrown around very loosely and that can be a dangerous thing when it comes to psych drugs. Especially considering that the perceived "need" that is created by them is often not from an organic health issue but is a direct result of the drugs themselves.

 

FG, have you no concern of some who have been taking benzodiazepines for decades, have tried unsuccessfully to quit them but can't due to not being able to function or not being able to  maintain an adequate quality of life? For these people, there is a true need to continue benzodiazepines or likely die or live an intolerable life until death.

 

It's true that the need would not have existed if they had not been prescribed benzos initially or if they had only used them short-term. But, through no fault of their own, they have a true & legitimate need to continue with benzo treatments.

 

To say there is no need for benzos, it delegitimizes these injured people.

 

[[Lo...]]

"...there aren't too many people who end up dying." I'm not referring to death by 'natural' causes eg. the chris cornell case. Additionally, cases can be made for those who can not lead normal lives after long-term benzo dependence. Reference again the cornell case, could he have continued to perform & earn a living as a performer if he had severe agoraphobia or stage fright? Among my personal acquaintances, I know of several who could not continue in their lines of work and support their families in the absence of maintenance prescriptions of benzodiazepines.

 

I agree on this, Fi Addendum. The "...there aren't too many people who end up dying." is very similar to "very few people die from diabetes". Yes, sure, people very rarely die from diabetes alone, but they do often die from complications of diabetes, whether directly or indirectly.

 

I have quickly learned that benzo withdrawal is not just about avoiding seizures and avoiding death. The neurological and motor issues can be so intolerable that they preclude people from daily living. And the complete fatigue combined with crippling agoraphobia can make it impossible to keep going without significant help. Many people move in with friends and families because they can no longer live alone and live lives the way they used to. To see benzodiazepines as just another chemical dependence is an insult to the very people that need help the most. It is a horrible oversimplification of an extremely complex and disabling problem.

[[Lo...]]

That same logic would also say no one ever needs an antibiotic (or a pain killer, or a sedative, or...)

 

I would argue that antibiotics could fall under the need category as this is a class of drug that can save your life, but the point is that the word "need" is thrown around very loosely and that can be a dangerous thing when it comes to psych drugs. Especially considering that the perceived "need" that is created by them is often not from an organic health issue but is a direct result of the drugs themselves.

 

FG, have you no concern of some who have been taking benzodiazepines for decades, have tried unsuccessfully to quit them but can't due to not being able to function or not being able to  maintain an adequate quality of life? For these people, there is a true need to continue benzodiazepines or likely die or live an intolerable life until death.

 

It's true that the need would not have existed if they had not been prescribed benzos initially or if they had only used them short-term. But, through no fault of their own, they have a true & legitimate need to continue with benzo treatments.

 

To say there is no need for benzos, it delegitimizes these injured people.

 

 

I agree, too. I'd probably say it differently and say that there are much healther alternatives than benzos in those who have not been injured by them to the point that they cannot function without them. But then again, a lot of people have no idea that they are physically dependent on a benzo until they try to stop taking it.

[[Fl...]]

Nonsense. I am not delegitimizing anyone.

 

Obviously some people choose to define "need" differently than I do. In my eyes, need implies no other alternative. I need air, food and water to survive. If I get a life threatening staph infection, I might need an antibiotic to survive. No one has ever needed a benzo to survive in that sense.

 

I also think some of you are missing my point. The point being that these drugs do not cure anything. I repeat, they do. not. cure. anything. They are at best a stopgap measure, and everyone here should know by now that they can cause years of untold suffering. So when someone says "I need a benzo" my reply will always be "are you absolutely sure need it, and if the answer to that is yes, are you aware of the possible negative consequences of making that decision?"

 

I have been dealing with this for 8 long years, I think I can speak with some authority.

[Guest [bl...]]

Nonsense. I am not delegitimizing anyone.

 

Obviously some people choose to define "need" differently than I do. In my eyes, need implies no other alternative. I need air, food and water to survive. If I get a life threatening staph infection, I might need an antibiotic to survive. No one has ever needed a benzo to survive in that sense.

 

I also think some of you are missing my point. The point being that these drugs do not cure anything. I repeat, they do. not. cure. anything.

 

What, in your opinion, did paxil do to this guy?

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=170210.0

(HEADS UP – Here’s where success story my story differs from others, but I want to be honest and include it)

 

    Around June, 2015, I was still suffering greatly. There was hardly a time when my anxiety level was not through the roof. My new psychologist had another idea. He proposed that I begin a dose of Paxil to try to offset the symptoms I had from coming off the Benzos. (Yes, I know it sounds stupid). He said it would be easier to wean off Paxil than it was to wean off Klonopin, although I had been off Klonopin for over a year. I was so desperate that I tried it. And lo and behold, it worked. Around June 2015, through the fall, I worked my way up to about 60 MG of Paxil (yes a large dose), and then began weaning off January 2016. By July 2016, I was completely off and almost all my symptoms EXCEPT for Tinnitus and occasional muscle twitching in my legs are gone. I am 95% healed. No more constant anxiety, no more headaches. No more dread. No more fear, no more constant worry. In fact, Im now back to doing all things I once enjoyed before benzos and antidepressants took my life. (And yes, for those years of hell I really believe they took my life – especially the year and a half after coming off Klonopin).

[[Lo...]]

Nonsense. I am not delegitimizing anyone.

 

Obviously some people choose to define "need" differently than I do. In my eyes, need implies no other alternative. I need air, food and water to survive. If I get a life threatening staph infection, I might need an antibiotic to survive. No one has ever needed a benzo to survive in that sense.

 

I also think some of you are missing my point. The point being that these drugs do not cure anything. I repeat, they do. not. cure. anything. They are at best a stopgap measure, and everyone here should know by now that they can cause years of untold suffering. So when someone says "I need a benzo" my reply will always be "are you absolutely sure need it, and if the answer to that is yes, are you aware of the possible negative consequences of making that decision?"

 

I have been dealing with this for 8 long years, I think I can speak with some authority.

 

I think that it is a given that benzos do not cure anything. I don't think that most people are that naive, thinking they have found a miracle drug that will suddenly cure their condition. I think most people (myself included) will agree that benzos do not cure anything. They do treat anxiety by temporarily lowering the fear threshold. Then the threshold goes back up, sometimes higher than where it was previously. But after a while the threshold gets frozen and people get stuck in an anxiety/insomnia/etc. trap with seemingly no way out. But that's not the worst. The worst is the long-term health complications and their compounding disabling effects causing years of prolonged suffering and sickness in some.

 

So, yes, they do not cure anything. But an average person out there goes to the doctor with the expectation that a drug from this class will not make them 1000 times worse than they were before taking it. That's the shock factor part that most people are not able to grasp. To be left much worse off after taking these benzos for a while. Most people don't really understand drugs very well. They usually go by what they heard from doctors, friends, family, etc. which is not an awful lot.

 

Most people don't want to let go. I've talked to many, and when I mentioned how damaging benzos can be, I've gotten pushback and disbelief and skepticism from many. People want to feel like there's something they can take if goings get really rough, and that whatever that is won't disable the heck out of them. Unfortunately, the dangers of benzos are not universally accepted and a lot of people still believe in them. It's something I've made peace with.

 

I don't believe in them anymore. I think they're cheaty and sneaky drugs, but I can't change minds of those that still do believe in them.

 

 

[[...]]

 

Honestly I don't think a lot of people understand that like benzos, AD's don't cure anything, they can be every bit as dangerous as benzos and when you take them you are taking a big risk with your health

 

 

Bingo...end of discussion

[[...]]

There isn't a person on the face of the earth that "needs" an AD. It isn't air or food or water.

 

 

 

That same logic would also say no one ever needs an antibiotic (or a pain killer, or a sedative, or...)

 

Not the same logic at all......

 

Anti biotic cures illness

Psych meds create further illness

[[...]]

Among my personal acquaintances, I know of several who could not continue in their lines of work and support their families in the absence of maintenance prescriptions of benzodiazepines.

 

And how will they continue in their lines of work and support their families when the toxic chemicals turn south on them?

 

AKA......tolerance withdrawal.

[[...]]

Nonsense. I am not delegitimizing anyone.

 

Obviously some people choose to define "need" differently than I do. In my eyes, need implies no other alternative. I need air, food and water to survive. If I get a life threatening staph infection, I might need an antibiotic to survive. No one has ever needed a benzo to survive in that sense.

 

I also think some of you are missing my point. The point being that these drugs do not cure anything. I repeat, they do. not. cure. anything.

 

 

 

What, in your opinion, did paxil do to this guy?

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=170210.0

(HEADS UP – Here’s where success story my story differs from others, but I want to be honest and include it)

 

    Around June, 2015, I was still suffering greatly. There was hardly a time when my anxiety level was not through the roof. My new psychologist had another idea. He proposed that I begin a dose of Paxil to try to offset the symptoms I had from coming off the Benzos. (Yes, I know it sounds stupid). He said it would be easier to wean off Paxil than it was to wean off Klonopin, although I had been off Klonopin for over a year. I was so desperate that I tried it. And lo and behold, it worked. Around June 2015, through the fall, I worked my way up to about 60 MG of Paxil (yes a large dose), and then began weaning off January 2016. By July 2016, I was completely off and almost all my symptoms EXCEPT for Tinnitus and occasional muscle twitching in my legs are gone. I am 95% healed. No more constant anxiety, no more headaches. No more dread. No more fear, no more constant worry. In fact, Im now back to doing all things I once enjoyed before benzos and antidepressants took my life. (And yes, for those years of hell I really believe they took my life – especially the year and a half after coming off Klonopin).

 

No one knows, they threw a dart at the diagnosis dartboard and took a wild guess with some toxic drugs and they "assumed" it worked and it wasn't a coincidence!

 

As you can see and which is a common theme all his problems started from AD's and were exacerbated by benzos. Need this point be further elaborated on?

[Guest [bl...]]

No one knows, they threw a dart at the diagnosis dartboard and took a wild guess with some toxic drugs and they "assumed" it worked and it wasn't a coincidence!

 

Patient sick ---> tries AD --> more sick ---> diagnosis = AD made him sick

Patient sick ---> tries AD --> healed ---> diagnosis = AD made him sick & coincidence made him better

 

^ Asymmetrical judgements skewed by personal biases trying to pass as objective fact .

 

As you can see and which is a common theme all his problems started from AD's and were exacerbated by benzos. Need this point be further elaborated on?

 

Where did you read that his problems started with ADs?

[[St...]]

Well said bluewaters 👍

[[...]]

No one knows, they threw a dart at the diagnosis dartboard and took a wild guess with some toxic drugs and they "assumed" it worked and it wasn't a coincidence!

 

Patient sick ---> tries AD --> more sick ---> diagnosis = AD made him sick

Patient sick ---> tries AD --> healed ---> diagnosis = AD made him sick & coincidence made him better

 

^ Asymmetrical judgements skewed by personal biases trying to pass as objective fact .

 

As you can see and which is a common theme all his problems started from AD's and were exacerbated by benzos. Need this point be further elaborated on?

 

Where did you read that his problems started with ADs?

 

Firstly, touché, those big words, although redundant do make you sound smarter.....

 

Secondly, you have zero fact that proves that the Paxil worked in any way whatsoever and neither does the author or his doctor.

 

Thirdly, I never said coincidence made him better but, it could be coincidental to the timing of The introduction of the Paxil and the natural course of homeostasis.

 

And fourthly, if you looked past the nose on your face instead of trying to look smart and you read the success story you will see he mentioned that the AD' s didn't work and actually added to his symptoms. "I truly believe that these anti-depressant meds GAVE ME anxiety" Enter Benzos.

 

Lastly, personal biases have not skewed my judgement in the slightest. You know less than zero about me so who is making judgements really?

[Guest [bl...]]

 

Secondly, you have zero fact that proves that the Paxil worked in any way whatsoever and neither does the author or his doctor.

 

i have as much "fact" that the paxil healed him as much as i have that an AD made him sick.

 

unless you have some fact that proves that the paxil did not help him heal, what are you arguing about?

 

Thirdly, I never said coincidence made him better but, it could be coincidental to the timing of The introduction of the Paxil and the natural course of homeostasis.

 

If the author thought it better in his judgement to include the paxil-incident and let it modify the ending of his "success story," then NO, i would not call it coincidence.

 

And fourthly, if you looked past the nose on your face instead of trying to look smart and you read the success story you will see he mentioned that the AD' s didn't work and actually added to his symptoms. "I truly believe that these anti-depressant meds GAVE ME anxiety" Enter Benzos.

 

Please be civil in your response!

 

Yes, an AD gave him anxiety. It is true and I believe him.

The same AD rescued him from endless anxiety. It is true and I believe him.

 

Both incidents can happen to the same person. ADs are mysterious. They do not have a 100% success rate. When they are not successful, they can be stopped without long term damage (with exceptions).

 

Your saying that his problems started with an AD is a careless misreading of his story.

 

This is the correct flowchart:

 

He had a problem --> he tried a benzo, then AD, stopped both, tried AD, stopped AD ---> he no longer has a problem

 

differing conclusions can be drawn from the above flowchart. But, "his problems started because he tried an AD" is certainly not one of them!

 

Lastly, personal biases have not skewed my judgement in the slightest.

 

I will take your word for it.

[[Fl...]]

What, in your opinion, did paxil do to this guy?

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=170210.0

 

I have never claimed that AD's haven't helped anyone. They have probably even saved lives. But it's a lot easier to credit a drug when it does something that it should do as opposed to blaming the drug when it creates its own illness. So how many lives have been saved by these drugs vs lives that have been ruined? How can anyone know whether they will be helped or hurt by the drugs unless they put themselves in harms way testing it?

 

Not to mention the fact that someone claims to have been helped by these drugs doesn't prove that anyone "needed" anything.

[[Fl...]]

Yes, an AD gave him anxiety. It is true and I believe him.

The same AD rescued him from endless anxiety. It is true and I believe him.

 

A drug that both cures and creates an illness in the same person? Sounds perfectly safe to me!

 

 

 

 

[Guest [bl...]]

 

A drug that both cures and creates an illness in the same person? Sounds perfectly safe to me!

 

The AD did not "create" his illness

[[Su...]]

My doc put me on Lexapro in the beggining of my wd... oh my God it was horror movie for me! When I quit Lexapro I was experiance sinus issues and I cant talk normal I was thinking and when I was trying to say something I was stopping without any reason! AD are EVIL too not like benzos but they are!

 

SamSmitty is completely right! They will not helping even to people without benzo w/d!

 

 

Ive seen many people in person helped by AD’s when nothing else would. People who are functioning and living. I can’t say all ad’s are evil.

 

I’m just don’t understand how it is still withdrawal after that far out. I guess I should look at it like an injury that is still healing.

:thumbsup:

Me Too!

[[Lo...]]

Among my personal acquaintances, I know of several who could not continue in their lines of work and support their families in the absence of maintenance prescriptions of benzodiazepines.

 

And how will they continue in their lines of work and support their families when the toxic chemicals turn south on them?

 

AKA......tolerance withdrawal.

 

And why did the benzodiazepines turn on them? Because nobody taught them how to discontinue them safely in the first place. Perhaps, they may have even heard the "benzos are bad" rhetoric and they tried to quit too quickly and suffering horrific problems as a result. Funny how the anti-drug proponents never talk about stopping the medications safely so that there isn't prolonged, miserable suffering months and years out. Anti psychiatry movement = a bunch of unqualified people with very little knowledge of how these drugs even work, trying to get everyone to quit no matter how much it hurts or if it kills them in the process, all the while looking the other way while people are complaining about horrific withdrawal symptoms. To me, the anti psychiatry radicals are no better than the medication happy medical providers who reach for a prescription pad at the first appointment.

 

"Drugs are bad m'kay!"

"But I got a seizure when I stopped my Ativan cold/turkey"

"Well, look at the bright side. At least you don't have to take it anymore!"

[[go...]]

From reading this I don't think he suggesting anyone immediately cold turkeying off anything?

[[Lo...]]

I don't know. I have read the "nobody needs a benzo" sentiment in this thread. Someone could take those words literally. There may be a doctor out there reading this and thinking "Hmmm, maybe my patient doesn't need these anymore." Many people on benzos might be confused and may be lacking proper judgment needed as far as their situations. Some of them could interpret the "nobody needs a benzo" statement as, "I should get off of it right now!". That's what I meant.

 

Basically, it's replacing informed consent with value judgment, and that could be medically dangerous if one acts on emotions and impulse alone. And people on long-term benzos (long term: over 4 weeks) can become very impulsive/emotionally reactive, and there have been studies to prove this.

 

Benzobuddies members do need to work with their medical providers, including doctors who prescribe benzos to them for taper purposes. Plenty of people come here completely crashed down from cold turkeys and such and are reminded that this a support forum only and that they need to see an actual doctor regarding their own medical situation.

[[...]]

 

Secondly, you have zero fact that proves that the Paxil worked in any way whatsoever and neither does the author or his doctor.

 

i have as much "fact" that the paxil healed him as much as i have that an AD made him sick.

 

unless you have some fact that proves that the paxil did not help him heal, what are you arguing about?

 

Thirdly, I never said coincidence made him better but, it could be coincidental to the timing of The introduction of the Paxil and the natural course of homeostasis.

 

If the author thought it better in his judgement to include the paxil-incident and let it modify the ending of his "success story," then NO, i would not call it coincidence.

 

And fourthly, if you looked past the nose on your face instead of trying to look smart and you read the success story you will see he mentioned that the AD' s didn't work and actually added to his symptoms. "I truly believe that these anti-depressant meds GAVE ME anxiety" Enter Benzos.

 

Please be civil in your response!

 

Yes, an AD gave him anxiety. It is true and I believe him.

The same AD rescued him from endless anxiety. It is true and I believe him.

 

Both incidents can happen to the same person. ADs are mysterious. They do not have a 100% success rate. When they are not successful, they can be stopped without long term damage (with exceptions).

 

Your saying that his problems started with an AD is a careless misreading of his story.

 

This is the correct flowchart:

 

He had a problem --> he tried a benzo, then AD, stopped both, tried AD, stopped AD ---> he no longer has a problem

 

differing conclusions can be drawn from the above flowchart. But, "his problems started because he tried an AD" is certainly not one of them!

 

Lastly, personal biases have not skewed my judgement in the slightest.

 

I will take your word for it.

 

Hey bluewaters

 

You're funny ay......you and your flow charts, if nothing else, do provide me with a chuckle at least.

 

Not sure if you read the correct success story? If you did read the correct one it is obvious it was not me that misread it.

 

You may need to go back and redo your recent flowchart, I know how much you like them.....

 

".......I couldn’t take it so, my brilliant doctor, instead of encouraging me to go back on Paxil and taper slowly, put me on Klonopin. (This is now about 7 years after initially beginning Zoloft back in 2004)......"

 

"Careless misreading of his story". Hahaha that was a good one.......

 

Anyway, no hard feelings, and wishing us both speedy healing and recovery.

 

[[li...]]

I don't know. I have read the "nobody needs a benzo" sentiment in this thread. Someone could take those words literally. There may be a doctor out there reading this and thinking "Hmmm, maybe my patient doesn't need these anymore." Many people on benzos might be confused and may be lacking proper judgment needed as far as their situations. Some of them could interpret the "nobody needs a benzo" statement as, "I should get off of it right now!". That's what I meant.

 

Basically, it's replacing informed consent with value judgment, and that could be medically dangerous if one acts on emotions and impulse alone. And people on long-term benzos (long term: over 4 weeks) can become very impulsive/emotionally reactive, and there have been studies to prove this.

 

Benzobuddies members do need to work with their medical providers, including doctors who prescribe benzos to them for taper purposes. Plenty of people come here completely crashed down from cold turkeys and such and are reminded that this a support forum only and that they need to see an actual doctor regarding their own medical situation.

 

LPF, I really don't want to be argumentative. I know you're having a hard time.

 

'

Benzobuddies members do need to work with their medical providers, including doctors who prescribe benzos to them for taper purposes. Plenty of people come here completely crashed down from cold turkeys and such and are reminded that this a support forum only and that they need to see an actual doctor regarding their own medical situation.'

 

The one time I tried that it got me into this catastrophic mess.