Expecting Recovery (Healing)?

[[Rx...]]

And https://www.sciencealert.com/human-hippocampus-brain-continues-making-new-neurons-whole-life.

[[Fi...]]

"One thing that really bothers me about the attempt to tie benzo damage in with other things is that it puts us right back into "looking for a cure" mode, which in many cases means "looking for a quick fix". And that's what got a lot of us here in the first place."

 

I am not looking for a cure (I know that a cure has not scientifically been discovered) but I sure as hell don't want to cause further damage by removing a chemical that (as much as I hate it) is preventing or slowing further damage from glutamate which is apparently what happens when benzos are removed from our systems. If I were a betting person: 1) The study that showed  statistically significant damage for individuals who stopped using benzos 2) My personal decline in mental & physical health upon starting a taper and 3) The significant numbers of people on this board who also attest to suffering mental & physical health declines vs. the singing from a choir of everyone will be "cured with time" (of which I'm in short supply) and a few anonymous stories of 'being healed' is enough to convince me that I am not ready to 'jump' from benzos into the abyss of unknown torture ... if you don't mind, I'll continue to research & hold or up dose if necessary.

 

[[Fl...]]

If I were a betting person: 1) The study that showed  statistically significant damage for individuals who stopped using benzos 2) My personal decline in mental & physical health upon starting a taper and 3) The significant numbers of people on this board who also attest to suffering mental & physical health declines vs. the singing from a choir of everyone will be "cured with time" (of which I'm in short supply) and a few anonymous stories of 'being healed' is enough to convince me that I am not ready to 'jump' from benzos into the abyss of unknown torture ... if you don't mind, I'll continue to research & hold or up dose if necessary.

 

There isn't any way to know whether an individual is better off staying on these drugs or coming off of them. Even though I am still in a difficult situation almost 8 years after my last dose I still don't regret coming off of them. I do regret not having done a proper taper but knowing what I know about these drugs I don't see being on them long term as a viable solution to anything.

 

These drugs basically create a hole that they subsequently fill. In theory they might continue to cover that hole indefinitely with the drugs but it seems like with a fair number of people that hole eventually widens and you need more of the drug to fill it. What happens when/if you get to the maximum dose and it no linger does what it needs to do?

 

You are wise to be asking these questions but I would caution you to be careful not to let the horror stories cloud your judgment. Yes, these drugs can and do cause horrible suffering for some people, but you have to remember that the information you see here doesn't show the big picture- it skews heavily toward the bad.

 

 

[[se...]]

Following

[[Fi...]]

 

"These drugs basically create a hole that they subsequently fill. In theory they might continue to cover that hole indefinitely with the drugs but it seems like with a fair number of people that hole eventually widens and you need more of the drug to fill it. What happens when/if you get to the maximum dose and it no linger does what it needs to do?"

 

as the hole widens, i will likely have no choice but to continue pouring more material into it or go down with it. i am not aware of a 'maximum dose' .. there is no LD-50 associated with the benzo which i will likely have to use for the rest of my life.

[[ci...]]

"One thing that really bothers me about the attempt to tie benzo damage in with other things is that it puts us right back into "looking for a cure" mode, which in many cases means "looking for a quick fix". And that's what got a lot of us here in the first place."

 

I am not looking for a cure (I know that a cure has not scientifically been discovered) but I sure as hell don't want to cause further damage by removing a chemical that (as much as I hate it) is preventing or slowing further damage from glutamate which is apparently what happens when benzos are removed from our systems. If I were a betting person: 1) The study that showed  statistically significant damage for individuals who stopped using benzos 2) My personal decline in mental & physical health upon starting a taper and 3) The significant numbers of people on this board who also attest to suffering mental & physical health declines vs. the singing from a choir of everyone will be "cured with time" (of which I'm in short supply) and a few anonymous stories of 'being healed' is enough to convince me that I am not ready to 'jump' from benzos into the abyss of unknown torture ... if you don't mind, I'll continue to research & hold or up dose if necessary.

 

I will watch and listen to your conclusion

[[Rx...]]

as the hole widens, i will likely have no choice but to continue pouring more material into it or go down with it. i am not aware of a 'maximum dose' .. there is no LD-50 associated with the benzo which i will likely have to use for the rest of my life.

 

Just fyi.  Fatality attributed to overdose of a benzodiazepine only here:  https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/benzodiazepine-overdose

[[Fl...]]

as the hole widens, i will likely have no choice but to continue pouring more material into it or go down with it. i am not aware of a 'maximum dose' .. there is no LD-50 associated with the benzo which i will likely have to use for the rest of my life.

 

Maximum dose as in maximum amount a doctor is willing to prescribe.

[[La...]]

"One thing that really bothers me about the attempt to tie benzo damage in with other things is that it puts us right back into "looking for a cure" mode, which in many cases means "looking for a quick fix". And that's what got a lot of us here in the first place."

 

I am not looking for a cure (I know that a cure has not scientifically been discovered) but I sure as hell don't want to cause further damage by removing a chemical that (as much as I hate it) is preventing or slowing further damage from glutamate which is apparently what happens when benzos are removed from our systems. If I were a betting person: 1) The study that showed  statistically significant damage for individuals who stopped using benzos 2) My personal decline in mental & physical health upon starting a taper and 3) The significant numbers of people on this board who also attest to suffering mental & physical health declines vs. the singing from a choir of everyone will be "cured with time" (of which I'm in short supply) and a few anonymous stories of 'being healed' is enough to convince me that I am not ready to 'jump' from benzos into the abyss of unknown torture ... if you don't mind, I'll continue to research & hold or up dose if necessary.

 

Just to clarify, Fi: The study that you original posted about does not say that the people were damaged by stopping their benzos. They were already cognitively impaired by taking benzos, since cognitive problems are a well known side effect of taking such meds. The study was following them (for a mean of 7.7 months after withdrawal) to see if they were doing better yet. For some, yes. For others, no. It's not black and white.

 

Anyway, it's a good idea to read, think and reflect. You need to be at peace with whatever decision you make. If you choose to stay on the meds, and you feel that that decision suits you, so be it. But keep reading. You may change your mind as you learn more.

 

 

[[Fi...]]

"One thing that really bothers me about the attempt to tie benzo damage in with other things is that it puts us right back into "looking for a cure" mode, which in many cases means "looking for a quick fix". And that's what got a lot of us here in the first place."

 

I am not looking for a cure (I know that a cure has not scientifically been discovered) but I sure as hell don't want to cause further damage by removing a chemical that (as much as I hate it) is preventing or slowing further damage from glutamate which is apparently what happens when benzos are removed from our systems. If I were a betting person: 1) The study that showed  statistically significant damage for individuals who stopped using benzos 2) My personal decline in mental & physical health upon starting a taper and 3) The significant numbers of people on this board who also attest to suffering mental & physical health declines vs. the singing from a choir of everyone will be "cured with time" (of which I'm in short supply) and a few anonymous stories of 'being healed' is enough to convince me that I am not ready to 'jump' from benzos into the abyss of unknown torture ... if you don't mind, I'll continue to research & hold or up dose if necessary.

 

Just to clarify, Fi: The study that you original posted about does not say that the people were damaged by stopping their benzos. They were already cognitively impaired by taking benzos, since cognitive problems are a well known side effect of taking such meds. The study was following them (for a mean of 7.7 months after withdrawal) to see if they were doing better yet. For some, yes. For others, no. It's not black and white.

 

Anyway, it's a good idea to read, think and reflect. You need to be at peace with whatever decision you make. If you choose to stay on the meds, and you feel that that decision suits you, so be it. But keep reading. You may change your mind as you learn more.

 

Lapis, no matter how you care to spin the OP study results, it is a far cry from "you will heal with time"!

 

“The results of this meta-analytic study are important in that they corroborate the mounting evidence that a range of neuropsychological functions are impaired as a result of long-term benzodiazepine use, and that these are likely to persist even following withdrawal,”

[[La...]]

And it doesn't say the impairments will continue FOREVER. It just followed people for a mean of 7.7 months.  And yes, people are "impaired" from taking benzos. Taking MORE benzos won't make that better. It may well make it worse.

 

 

[[se...]]

The study is not suggesting that it's healthier for you to be on a benzo.  It isn't THE counter-argument to the "you will heal with time" statement either.  It's weak evidence.  It's not an RCT, sample sizes are small, it doesn't address other areas of health and functioning, and it contradicts previous evidence including the authors' own previous work.  If you're distraught over the idea that you may not improve cognitively, then you might consider staying on.  That distress too may have consequences that outweigh the benefits of getting off.  The decision and the idea that time will heal are much more complex than what is addressed by the study.

 

 

 

[[Rx...]]

Maximum dose as in maximum amount a doctor is willing to prescribe.

 

I figured.  But too much apparently can be deadly according to what I cited above and that is LD-50.  Having had a doctor prescribe too high a dosage of another med that nearly killed me indicates it is possible for a doctor to prescribe too much.  An Rx which was an overdose in and of itself.

[[Rx...]]

Maximum dose as in maximum amount a doctor is willing to prescribe.

 

I figured.  But too much apparently can be deadly according to what I cited above and that is LD-50.  Having had a doctor prescribe too high a dosage of another med that nearly killed me indicates it is possible for a doctor to prescribe too much.  An Rx which was an overdose in and of itself.

 

Pardon me, that's LD50.  And could be LD50 (lethal enough to kill 50% of the population).  I wonder how many of those who decide to remain on for life are on huge amounts and it is written off as death by old age instead of prescribed overdose quite frankly.  Seeing as our suffering is swept under the rug as much as it is makes me wonder how many deaths related to benzodiazepines are swept under the rug.

[[Te...]]

And it doesn't say the impairments will continue FOREVER. It just followed people for a mean of 7.7 months.  And yes, people are "impaired" from taking benzos. Taking MORE benzos won't make that better. It may well make it worse.

 

I have to agree with Lapis. 7.7 months isn't long at all to study the benzo effect on people. It's very short, in fact, when a lot of people feel healed at 18 months and were absolutely in despair at 7 months. I wish the researchers understood this!! They come out with a pronouncement, get everyone upset because they believe it, and leave them without hope. Researchers aren't getting the whole picture. it's very short-sighted.

 

 

[[Fi...]]

Maximum dose as in maximum amount a doctor is willing to prescribe.

 

I figured.  But too much apparently can be deadly according to what I cited above and that is LD-50.  Having had a doctor prescribe too high a dosage of another med that nearly killed me indicates it is possible for a doctor to prescribe too much.  An Rx which was an overdose in and of itself.

 

Pardon me, that's LD50.  And could be LD50 (lethal enough to kill 50% of the population).  I wonder how many of those who decide to remain on for life are on huge amounts and it is written off as death by old age instead of prescribed overdose quite frankly.  Seeing as our suffering is swept under the rug as much as it is makes me wonder how many deaths related to benzodiazepines are swept under the rug.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but, you are not a medical professional. I have never read a death certificate that says death from old age & I do not know any doctors who 'write off' deaths caused by old age. There are medical reasons for death, and old age is not one of them.

[[Fi...]]

And it doesn't say the impairments will continue FOREVER. It just followed people for a mean of 7.7 months.  And yes, people are "impaired" from taking benzos. Taking MORE benzos won't make that better. It may well make it worse.

 

I have to agree with Lapis. 7.7 months isn't long at all to study the benzo effect on people. It's very short, in fact, when a lot of people feel healed at 18 months and were absolutely in despair at 7 months. I wish the researchers understood this!! They come out with a pronouncement, get everyone upset because they believe it, and leave them without hope. Researchers aren't getting the whole picture. it's very short-sighted.

 

Lapis correctly stated that 7.7 months was the Mean of the statistical analysis it was NOT the greatest amount of time after cessation. The greatest amount of time after cessation was 42 months if remember correctly. You may say that you agree with Lapis but you apparently do not sufficiently understand the conclusions of the study.

[[Rx...]]

Maximum dose as in maximum amount a doctor is willing to prescribe.

 

I figured.  But too much apparently can be deadly according to what I cited above and that is LD-50.  Having had a doctor prescribe too high a dosage of another med that nearly killed me indicates it is possible for a doctor to prescribe too much.  An Rx which was an overdose in and of itself.

 

Pardon me, that's LD50.  And could be LD50 (lethal enough to kill 50% of the population).  I wonder how many of those who decide to remain on for life are on huge amounts and it is written off as death by old age instead of prescribed overdose quite frankly.  Seeing as our suffering is swept under the rug as much as it is makes me wonder how many deaths related to benzodiazepines are swept under the rug.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but, you are not a medical professional. I have never read a death certificate that says death from old age & I do not know any doctors who 'write off' deaths caused by old age. There are medical reasons for death, and old age is not one of them.

 

No, I'm a legal professional.  Would you prefer death by natural cause?  You appeared upset when I was providing hippocampus hope prior on the thread.  Again, I'm not arguing with anyone nor do I want to, but again, I can share here too.

[[Te...]]

Fi, can you please supply the exact language, as it is stated in the study, concerning 42 months? Thank you.

 

I'm at 54 months. I can say that I have made great strides in my cognitive function. Of course I take bp pills, and I don't know how much of my brain/body is being compromised by those. But, nevertheless, I still remain optimistic. I had so many symptoms that have either disappeared or come back only for brief appearances.

[[Fi...]]

Terry, if I remember correctly 42 months is mentioned in table 2 & a paragraph or 2 before that, you can do a 'find' search on the document to be sure.

[[Fi...]]

Fi, can you please supply the exact language, as it is stated in the study, concerning 42 months? Thank you.

 

I'm at 54 months. I can say that I have made great strides in my cognitive function. Of course I take bp pills, and I don't know how much of my brain/body is being compromised by those. But, nevertheless, I still remain optimistic. I had so many symptoms that have either disappeared or come back only for brief appearances.

 

"When benzodiazepine users were followed up after withdrawal (i.e., a maximum of 42 months post-withdrawal), cognitive deficits persisted as indicated by the statistically significant negative effect sizes being found for all cognitive domains except for the domain of sustained attention (Table 6)." 

 

 

[[Lo...]]

Maximum dose as in maximum amount a doctor is willing to prescribe.

 

I figured.  But too much apparently can be deadly according to what I cited above and that is LD-50.  Having had a doctor prescribe too high a dosage of another med that nearly killed me indicates it is possible for a doctor to prescribe too much.  An Rx which was an overdose in and of itself.

 

Pardon me, that's LD50.  And could be LD50 (lethal enough to kill 50% of the population).  I wonder how many of those who decide to remain on for life are on huge amounts and it is written off as death by old age instead of prescribed overdose quite frankly.  Seeing as our suffering is swept under the rug as much as it is makes me wonder how many deaths related to benzodiazepines are swept under the rug.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but, you are not a medical professional. I have never read a death certificate that says death from old age & I do not know any doctors who 'write off' deaths caused by old age. There are medical reasons for death, and old age is not one of them.

 

Fi Addendum, have you considered talking to your doctor regarding your concerns over your long term benzodiazepine use and the pros and cons of continuing them (original dose, reduced dose) or discontinuing them completely? Are you planning to take the article on this thread to your doctor and discuss what you want to do?

 

Whatever you decide to do, good luck to you.

[[Fi...]]

Maximum dose as in maximum amount a doctor is willing to prescribe.

 

I figured.  But too much apparently can be deadly according to what I cited above and that is LD-50.  Having had a doctor prescribe too high a dosage of another med that nearly killed me indicates it is possible for a doctor to prescribe too much.  An Rx which was an overdose in and of itself.

 

Pardon me, that's LD50.  And could be LD50 (lethal enough to kill 50% of the population).  I wonder how many of those who decide to remain on for life are on huge amounts and it is written off as death by old age instead of prescribed overdose quite frankly.  Seeing as our suffering is swept under the rug as much as it is makes me wonder how many deaths related to benzodiazepines are swept under the rug.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but, you are not a medical professional. I have never read a death certificate that says death from old age & I do not know any doctors who 'write off' deaths caused by old age. There are medical reasons for death, and old age is not one of them.

 

Fi Addendum, have you considered talking to your doctor regarding your concerns over your long term benzodiazepine use and the pros and cons of continuing them (original dose, reduced dose) or discontinuing them completely? Are you planning to take the article on this thread to your doctor and discuss what you want to do?

 

Whatever you decide to do, good luck to you.

 

Thank you and yes I have & will continue to consult with my doctor.

[[lo...]]

Fi, can you please supply the exact language, as it is stated in the study, concerning 42 months? Thank you.

 

I'm at 54 months. I can say that I have made great strides in my cognitive function. Of course I take bp pills, and I don't know how much of my brain/body is being compromised by those. But, nevertheless, I still remain optimistic. I had so many symptoms that have either disappeared or come back only for brief appearances.

 

"When benzodiazepine users were followed up after withdrawal (i.e., a maximum of 42 months post-withdrawal), cognitive deficits persisted as indicated by the statistically significant negative effect sizes being found for all cognitive domains except for the domain of sustained attention (Table 6)."

 

Thanks for the quote.  I am now at 5.5 years and have serious cognitive impairment. 

[[Rx...]]

No cog fog here.  I was lucky in experiencing very little cog fog throughout this ordeal.  Little over a year off.  Just to give hope.