Expecting Recovery (Healing)?

[[...]]

Lapis, FG, I can understand your point of view a little better now that I’ve had time to step back and think about it. Maybe a “trigger warning” or something might have helped on the post? I dunno, I think all of us have made some valid points here. Sorry if I came of brash.

[[La...]]

Hi T1D,

No problem at all! I think we all understand the fears and anxieties that come along with benzo withdrawal. My best solution for that is to read Success Stories, because they show us that yes, people do indeed heal and go back to the land of the living.

 

Thanks for that post, T1D. I've been thinking about all of this a lot over the last couple of days, so I'm really pleased that things are okay with you.

[Guest [Sk...]]

Lapis, FG, I can understand your point of view a little better now that I’ve had time to step back and think about it. Maybe a “trigger warning” or something might have helped on the post? I dunno, I think all of us have made some valid points here. Sorry if I came of brash.

 

:thumbsup:

 

well said TID     

 

I think you speak for many readers (and lurkers)  :thumbsup:

[[Su...]]

Was off-line for a few days...

I for one, who is still in the trenches. Want news and science articles.

For me it helps me make informed decisions about all this— well as informed as we can be anyway.

And I get your wanting to protect people TID.

Thanks all

SS

[[Se...]]

I read the study that Lapsis kindly provided the link to. I’m more concerned about the fact that this particular “meta analysis” study included studies from as far back as 2004 that apparently pointed out cognition problems in long term benzo users and that prescribers of benzos are just now deciding that people should not be on these long term. And, there were studies before 2004 that pointed to the same conclusions that were not included in this study.

 

On the positive side, it appears to me that the “time since withdrawal” when the cognitive tests were given in the studies analyzed was a mean of 7.7 months with a range of .5-45 months. That seems like a rather short time off benzos with little time to heal. I’d like to see studies that only use participants who have been off benzos for 24 months minimum.

 

 

[[La...]]

I read the study that Lapsis kindly provided the link to. I’m more concerned about the fact that this particular “meta analysis” study included studies from as far back as 2004 that apparently pointed out cognition problems in long term benzo users and that prescribers of benzos are just now deciding that people should not be on these long term. And, there were studies before 2004 that pointed to the same conclusions that were not included in this study.

 

On the positive side, it appears to me that the “time since withdrawal” when the cognitive tests were given in the studies analyzed was a mean of 7.7 months with a range of .5-45 months. That seems like a rather short time off benzos with little time to heal. I’d like to see studies that only use participants who have been off benzos for 24 months minimum.

 

Hey Serenitee,

Great points! Would you be able to share where you found those details about the "time since withdrawal"? Was it in one of the tables? I want to look at the study again this week, since I think those details really, really affect what conclusions we can draw from this meta-analysis. Thanks!

[[Se...]]

I read the study that Lapsis kindly provided the link to. I’m more concerned about the fact that this particular “meta analysis” study included studies from as far back as 2004 that apparently pointed out cognition problems in long term benzo users and that prescribers of benzos are just now deciding that people should not be on these long term. And, there were studies before 2004 that pointed to the same conclusions that were not included in this study.

 

On the positive side, it appears to me that the “time since withdrawal” when the cognitive tests were given in the studies analyzed was a mean of 7.7 months with a range of .5-45 months. That seems like a rather short time off benzos with little time to heal. I’d like to see studies that only use participants who have been off benzos for 24 months minimum.

 

Hey Serenitee,

Great points! Would you be able to share where you found those details about the "time since withdrawal"? Was it in one of the tables? I want to look at the study again this week, since I think those details really, really affect what conclusions we can draw from this meta-analysis. Thanks!

 

Yes Lapsis, I was basing my comments on Table 2 primarily. I am not a “statistics” guy so I may be wrong. Let me know what you think.

 

Ironically, the fact that I can even read something like that and make sense of it (I think) makes the argument that ones cognition does get better since I would never of been able to read and comprehend this study back when I was in the thick of it.

[[La...]]

Darn right! You have excellent cognition! I see the line you're referring to and yes, it's saying that the mean amount of time off is 7.7 months, with a standard deviation of 16.8 months and a range of .5 to 42 months, based on 6 studies. So, it's not as if 11 studies followed people for 3.5 years or anything like that AT ALL. There's another line called "length of abstinence", so that has to be looked at too. I'd like to have clarification on that one.

 

 

[[Fi...]]

Symptom Warning: My analysis & opinion will not likely be well received. I'm not a licensed medical doctor nor a statistician but, in my humble opinion it is reckless at best and bordering upon deception to suggest that people will 'heal with time' merely by the cessation from long-term benzodiazepine use. Many studies and this meta-analysis of multiple studies indicate the opposite is true. Hint, use it or lose it. Hope and faith may be comforting for some and that may in the end be the best treatment for most but, it may be fatally harmful to misuse such emotions to plan one's future or to plan for the future of loved ones. Promoting to most people the perception that symptoms caused by the use & cessation from long-term benzodiazepine use will be 'healed with time' may be as negligent and as harmful or more harmful for some as was the practice of prescribing benzodiazepines for long-term use in the first place. The aforementioned studies statistically indicate that time alone does not heal the effects from using and stopping the use of benzodiazepines in the long-term (less than 42 months). More aggressive treatment than 'time and healing' may be indicated for relief &/or rehabilitation from the symptoms of long-term benzodiazepine use. Those treatments may include the assistance of providers from  medical, spiritual, mental, physical, and other communities. Ultimately, it is up to us as individuals to decide what those treatments will be, from whom we will seek them and how, where & when we will utilize them. I extend my appreciation to bb's & its members for promoting an ongoing discussion of the tragedy of long-term benzodiazepine use & cessation. best wishes!   

[[...]]

Very well said, Fi, I agree with your viewpoint 100%!  I'll also add to your strong words that, in my opinion, those of the "Time and ONLY Time is the Healer" brigade have blood on their hands.  To my mind, it's an extremely harmful and negligent indoctrination.

[[La...]]

One thing that's very clear is the wide variety of experiences and outcomes. For some, there is absolutely no withdrawal at all, and of course, they are not represented around here at all. For others, it's completely the opposite -- that is, they suffer greatly.

 

As I believe Dr. Malcolm Lader stated in one of those videos that was widely shared around here, it would be extremely helpful to be able to determine which people will be affected badly and which ones won't. He and Dr. Ashton wanted to do research way back in the 80s, but were denied the appropriate funding. It's heartening to see that there ARE, indeed, relatively recent studies on how people fare after taking benzos for a long-term period. We need more, and their results need to be widely disseminated so that people can make appropriate decisions about medications.

[[Su...]]

One thing that's very clear is the wide variety of experiences and outcomes. For some, there is absolutely no withdrawal at all, and of course, they are not represented around here at all. For others, it's completely the opposite -- that is, they suffer greatly.

 

As I believe Dr. Malcolm Lader stated in one of those videos that was widely shared around here, it would be extremely helpful to be able to determine which people will be affected badly and which ones won't. He and Dr. Ashton wanted to do research way back in the 80s, but were denied the appropriate funding. It's heartening to see that there ARE, indeed, relatively recent studies on how people fare after taking benzos for a long-term period. We need more, and their results need to be widely disseminated so that people can make appropriate decisions about medications.

:thumbsup:

SS

[[Fl...]]

Very well said, Fi, I agree with your viewpoint 100%!  I'll also add to your strong words that, in my opinion, those of the "Time and ONLY Time is the Healer" brigade have blood on their hands.  To my mind, it's an extremely harmful and negligent indoctrination.

 

The thing is, as of today time IS the only thing that has been 100% proven to heal. And I personally do not believe that everyone heals 100% but I do believe that the long term prognosis is good. So it is indeed irresponsible to tell people that everyone does heal 100% but it is also important to point out that all of the signs point to the idea that given enough time, most people do improve substantially.

 

If someone wants to try to find a cure for this that is their business but the reality is that there has been a lot of $#!t thrown against the wall to see what sticks but I haven't seen convincing proof that anything really helps. That makes a pretty good case for holding out for some kind of cure being "false hope". I personally would much rather hang my hat on something more solid.

[Guest [Sk...]]

Very well said, Fi, I agree with your viewpoint 100%!  I'll also add to your strong words that, in my opinion, those of the "Time and ONLY Time is the Healer" brigade have blood on their hands.  To my mind, it's an extremely harmful and negligent indoctrination.

 

500%  abcd      :thumbsup:

 

:highfive:

 

False hope,

 

by us and our  Drs

 

lead us to these drugs and look where that got us.

 

Reality and our own individual needs which are vastly different need to be addressed too.

 

  Now that is a reality and a solid solution too

 

 

 

 

That makes a pretty good case for holding out for some kind of cure being "false hope".

 

I personally would much rather hang my hat on something more solid.

[[Lo...]]

This is why Dr. Peter Breggin in his book "Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal" mentions the 10% rule and that psychiatric drugs should not be withdrawn at a rate faster than 10% reductions. And for people who have been on benzodiazepines for years, even 10% can be too fast.

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/803-dr-peter-breggins-10-taper-method/

 

It is not realistic to be on daily benzodiazepines for years and expect to be off in 6 months. Some people may be able to do it. Many other may not.

[[ci...]]

This is why Dr. Peter Breggin in his book "Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal" mentions the 10% rule and that psychiatric drugs should not be withdrawn at a rate faster than 10% reductions. And for people who have been on benzodiazepines for years, even 10% can be too fast.

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/803-dr-peter-breggins-10-taper-method/

 

It is not realistic to be on daily benzodiazepines for years and expect to be off in 6 months. Some people may be able to do it. Many other may not.

 

It seems Breggin does not “recalculate” the 10% from the new reduced dose.  So the actual % keeps going up.

[[Lo...]]

This is why Dr. Peter Breggin in his book "Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal" mentions the 10% rule and that psychiatric drugs should not be withdrawn at a rate faster than 10% reductions. And for people who have been on benzodiazepines for years, even 10% can be too fast.

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/803-dr-peter-breggins-10-taper-method/

 

It is not realistic to be on daily benzodiazepines for years and expect to be off in 6 months. Some people may be able to do it. Many other may not.

 

It seems Breggin does not “recalculate” the 10% from the new reduced dose.  So the actual % keeps going up.

 

No, he does not recalculate. There was a whole discussion on that on the SA forum. Perhaps, this is why some doctors I ran into may have thought that, once I reached lower doses, that coming off of those low amounts might actually be a lot easier. But, in reality, it may end up being much harder.

[[La...]]

Hi All,

Going back to the study here:

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321856301_The_Residual_Medium_and_Long-term_Cognitive_Effects_of_Benzodiazepine_Use_An_Updated_Meta-analysis 

 

Check Table 2. What do you think the line that's second to the bottom refers to, i.e. "Length of abstinence at follow-up", and how does it differ from "Time since withdrawal (months)"?

 

 

[[Sa...]]

Symptom Warning: My analysis & opinion will not likely be well received. I'm not a licensed medical doctor nor a statistician but, in my humble opinion it is reckless at best and bordering upon deception to suggest that people will 'heal with time' merely by the cessation from long-term benzodiazepine use. Many studies and this meta-analysis of multiple studies indicate the opposite is true. Hint, use it or lose it. Hope and faith may be comforting for some and that may in the end be the best treatment for most but, it may be fatally harmful to misuse such emotions to plan one's future or to plan for the future of loved ones. Promoting to most people the perception that symptoms caused by the use & cessation from long-term benzodiazepine use will be 'healed with time' may be as negligent and as harmful or more harmful for some as was the practice of prescribing benzodiazepines for long-term use in the first place. The aforementioned studies statistically indicate that time alone does not heal the effects from using and stopping the use of benzodiazepines in the long-term (less than 42 months). More aggressive treatment than 'time and healing' may be indicated for relief &/or rehabilitation from the symptoms of long-term benzodiazepine use. Those treatments may include the assistance of providers from  medical, spiritual, mental, physical, and other communities. Ultimately, it is up to us as individuals to decide what those treatments will be, from whom we will seek them and how, where & when we will utilize them. I extend my appreciation to bb's & its members for promoting an ongoing discussion of the tragedy of long-term benzodiazepine use & cessation. best wishes! 

 

This.

[[...]]

Very well said, Fi, I agree with your viewpoint 100%!  I'll also add to your strong words that, in my opinion, those of the "Time and ONLY Time is the Healer" brigade have blood on their hands.  To my mind, it's an extremely harmful and negligent indoctrination.

 

The thing is, as of today time IS the only thing that has been 100% proven to heal. And I personally do not believe that everyone heals 100% but I do believe that the long term prognosis is good. So it is indeed irresponsible to tell people that everyone does heal 100% but it is also important to point out that all of the signs point to the idea that given enough time, most people do improve substantially.

 

If someone wants to try to find a cure for this that is their business but the reality is that there has been a lot of $#!t thrown against the wall to see what sticks but I haven't seen convincing proof that anything really helps. That makes a pretty good case for holding out for some kind of cure being "false hope". I personally would much rather hang my hat on something more solid.

 

 

Hey FG.  I find that sentence so metaphorical as to be meaningless.  I don't know how to reply to that, maybe you can rephrase what you mean more literally.  Time brings all things to pass.  It can be our ally and our worst enemy and, depending on who's walking in those shoes of time, it can produce some very different outcomes. 

 

As far as a cure for "this".  What exactly is this "this" of which you speak?   You have your "this", I have mine and everyone else has their own unique "this".  There's no broad brush, it's extremely individual and it's also a moving target with a myriad of different pieces.

 

Re-read Fi's post, he's encapsulated everything I've been trying to say for the longest time.

[Guest [Sk...]]

Symptom Warning: My analysis & opinion will not likely be well received. I'm not a licensed medical doctor nor a statistician but,

 

in my humble opinion it is reckless at best and bordering upon deception to suggest that people will 'heal with time'

merely by the cessation from long-term benzodiazepine use.

Many studies and this meta-analysis of multiple studies indicate the opposite is true.

Hint, use it or lose it.

 

Hope and faith may be comforting for some and that may in the end be the best treatment for most but,

it may be fatally harmful to misuse such emotions to plan one's future or to plan for the future of loved ones.

 

Promoting to most people the perception that symptoms caused by the use & cessation from long-term benzodiazepine use will be 'healed with time'

 

may be as negligent and as harmful or more harmful for some as was the practice of prescribing benzodiazepines for long-term use in the first place.

 

The aforementioned studies statistically indicate that time alone does not heal the effects from using and stopping the use of benzodiazepines in the long-term (less than 42 months).

 

More aggressive treatment than 'time and healing' may be indicated for relief &/or rehabilitation from the symptoms of long-term benzodiazepine use.

 

Those treatments may include the assistance of providers from  medical, spiritual, mental, physical, and other communities.

 

Ultimately, it is up to us as individuals to decide what those treatments will be,

 

from whom we will seek them and how, where & when we will utilize them.

 

I extend my appreciation to bb's & its members for promoting an ongoing discussion of the tragedy of long-term benzodiazepine use & cessation. best wishes! 

 

:thumbsup:

 

excellent Post. 

as abcd suggested went back and re read it

 

Thanks to you both      :thumbsup:

 

[[Lo...]]

in my humble opinion it is reckless at best and bordering upon deception to suggest that people will 'heal with time'

merely by the cessation from long-term benzodiazepine use.

 

I am more and more convinced that how one goes about ceasing long-term benzodiazepine use is an extremely important topic that gets very little attention. There is a lot of awareness about the long-term dangers of benzo use, but I don't seem to notice any kind of agreement anywhere as far to how these drugs should be stopped, should anyone decide to stop taking them in the first place. Apparently some people think that tapering too long is prolonging the agony and would rather get off of these meds ASAP, while others claim that doing it slowly and steadily is the only tried & true way to succeed. I have not seen any sort of consensus on this. Apparently, each person is very much on their own. Up the creek without a paddle.

[[Fl...]]

Hey FG.  I find that sentence so metaphorical as to be meaningless.

 

I don't know what is metaphorical or meaningless about that statement. It's pretty straightforward- the only thing that has been proven to heal us is time. That doesn't mean that time heals 100%, that just means that it is generally accepted in the benzo community that time does heal and it is probably the only thing that every single person who has ever improved from benzo damage has had in common. So even though there are a few people here and there that claim that this or that has helped them (I'm not saying that nothing else can help, just that there isn't much evidence that says that it can) none of this will likely ever be proven because everyone has also had the benefit of time.

 

.....I don't know how to reply to that, maybe you can rephrase what you mean more literally.  Time brings all things to pass.  It can be our ally and our worst enemy and, depending on who's walking in those shoes of time, it can produce some very different outcomes. 

 

As far as a cure for "this".  What exactly is this "this" of which you speak?   You have your "this", I have mine and everyone else has their own unique "this".  There's no broad brush, it's extremely individual and it's also a moving target with a myriad of different pieces.

 

You're just talking in circles and throwing up a smokescreen. You know what "this" is. Our symptoms might manifest themselves a little differently with each person but you can't tell me that we aren't all suffering from the same illness. It might be tempting to look at the disease through the lens of the discombobulated manner in which the symptoms present themselves but the reality is that we are all suffering from the same thing.

 

Of course that doesn't mean that everyone will respond to "treatments" the same way, but you aren't going to convince me that it is a completely unique experience for everyone who goes through it.

 

 

 

[[Fl...]]

I am more and more convinced that how one goes about ceasing long-term benzodiazepine use is an extremely important topic that gets very little attention. There is a lot of awareness about the long-term dangers of benzo use, but I don't seem to notice any kind of agreement anywhere as far to how these drugs should be stopped, should anyone decide to stop taking them in the first place. Apparently some people think that tapering too long is prolonging the agony and would rather get off of these meds ASAP, while others claim that doing it slowly and steadily is the only tried & true way to succeed. I have not seen any sort of consensus on this. Apparently, each person is very much on their own. Up the creek without a paddle.

 

I agree, and if anyone asks for my opinion I will tell them that if they have been on benzos for any length of time, they shouldn't be in a hurry to get off the drugs. If I made a mistake it was certainly not researching how to taper these drugs before I ripped myself off of them.

[[Lo...]]

Hey FG.  I find that sentence so metaphorical as to be meaningless.

 

I don't know what is metaphorical or meaningless about that statement. It's pretty straightforward- the only thing that has been proven to heal us is time. That doesn't mean that time heals 100%, that just means that it is generally accepted in the benzo community that time does heal and it is probably the only thing that every single person who has ever improved from benzo damage has had in common. So even though there are a few people here and there that claim that this or that has helped them (I'm not saying that nothing else can help, just that there isn't much evidence that says that it can) none of this will likely ever be proven because everyone has also had the benefit of time.

 

.....I don't know how to reply to that, maybe you can rephrase what you mean more literally.  Time brings all things to pass.  It can be our ally and our worst enemy and, depending on who's walking in those shoes of time, it can produce some very different outcomes. 

 

As far as a cure for "this".  What exactly is this "this" of which you speak?   You have your "this", I have mine and everyone else has their own unique "this".  There's no broad brush, it's extremely individual and it's also a moving target with a myriad of different pieces.

 

You're just talking in circles and throwing up a smokescreen. You know what "this" is. Our symptoms might manifest themselves a little differently with each person but you can't tell me that we aren't all suffering from the same illness. It might be tempting to look at the disease from a through the lens of the discombobulated manner in which the symptoms present themselves but the reality is that we are all suffering from the same thing.

 

Of course that doesn't mean that everyone will respond to "treatments" the same way, but you aren't going to convince me that it is a completely unique experience for everyone who goes through it.

 

It is pretty clear to me also what "this" is, too. It has happened to many people over the last 60 years and there is hardly much uniqueness about the experience itself. Everyone is different of course, but we are all H. Sapiens Sapiens, and will react in a very similar way after being on benzos long-term. Both brain and body will react in very similar, predictable ways. And how this has been happening for 60 years in plain sight is beyond my comprehension. I suppose that most people that managed to live through this are just too exhausted to be able to spread awareness, and even if they did, the experience is so raw-to-the-bones horrific that most people would dismiss it as impossible, anyway.