Expecting Recovery (Healing)?

[[mo...]]

T1D, I do understand. 💗

[[...]]

For people to go running around from pillar to post without any regard or interest in anyone's individual symptoms or (sometimes very complicated) backstory, and promoting to all and sundry that no matter what they may try to *DO* to help themselves, it is all for naught and a complete waste of their time and effort because their recovery is all in the lap of the Gods or the Universe or divine intervention.  That there is a travesty and completely beyond my realm of comprehension!!!

 

Putting aside the implication that it is somehow possible to tailor a treatment for this based upon a person's health history or individual symptoms (I don't even know where someone could begin to argue this), I am not aware of anyone who preaches that it is impossible for anything but time to positively affect healing, only that time is the only thing that we know substantially affects healing. And the idea that recovery is in the hand of divine intervention? There is a huge difference between having faith in the body's ability to heal itself (which is a scientific fact) and believing that healing is in the hands of some divine being.

 

If I didn't know any better I would think that you are taking the position that what we are experiencing is nothing more than a pre-existing mental illness.

 

Okay, bear with me, I'm going to try and come back as I do want to try and really get my point across clearly once and for all.  So so frustrating being so physically compromised!  Plus, I also wish I had your mad writing skills, seriously, I've said it before, when it comes to being able to say so much, so clearly and so succinctly, in my book, you're top of the class!  Wish we were on the same page here so you could just say/type it out for me.

[[Lo...]]

For people to go running around from pillar to post without any regard or interest in anyone's individual symptoms or (sometimes very complicated) backstory, and promoting to all and sundry that no matter what they may try to *DO* to help themselves, it is all for naught and a complete waste of their time and effort because their recovery is all in the lap of the Gods or the Universe or divine intervention.  That there is a travesty and completely beyond my realm of comprehension!!!

 

Putting aside the implication that it is somehow possible to tailor a treatment for this based upon a person's health history or individual symptoms (I don't even know where someone could begin to argue this), I am not aware of anyone who preaches that it is impossible for anything but time to positively affect healing, only that time is the only thing that we know substantially affects healing. And the idea that recovery is in the hand of divine intervention? There is a huge difference between having faith in the body's ability to heal itself (which is a scientific fact) and believing that healing is in the hands of some divine being.

 

If I didn't know any better I would think that you are taking the position that what we are experiencing is nothing more than a pre-existing mental illness.

 

Okay, bear with me, I'm going to try and come back as I do want to try and really get my point across clearly once and for all.  So so frustrating being so physically compromised!  Plus, I also wish I had your mad writing skills, seriously, I've said it before, when it comes to being able to say so much, so clearly and so succinctly, in my book, you're top of the class!  Wish we were on the same page here so you could just say/type it out for me.

 

"Riding the wave of affirming micro-distractions back to health, happiness and vitality" by - abcd. abcd press, 2018 

 

[[mo...]]

abcd’s right and it is hard to put to words. I was really wrong, and it is incredibly challenging to put to words, but I think time is going to be a factor... but I just got proven wrong by something.

[[La...]]

By what, mon pilote?

[[mo...]]

Well, I still want to look at the article but back to this soon. I may take a little time too, but just one example is somone who’s CT’d and could be better going back on. I don’t know, I’m just seeing some other things— like all kinds of different points came together in my thoughts last night with one case here in particular.

 

I guess, ultimately the answer is that time will also heal the person who reinstates, bit it does make sense that this isn’t always maybe necessarily the very best advice for everyone all the time just on this one point in particular.

 

It’s a little difficult to to put together all the thoughts and feelings I had about this last night/this morning. I read an article, too which influenced me to consider more nuance.

 

Generally, time is what it ends up being, but I guess there is more to it the longer I think on it. But yes, in general it’s going to mostly come down to time... I just think that abcd, Saga and Skyblue are also right now... and I think there is much more to it than just “use it or loose it,” I think that it’s complicated.

[[Fi...]]

I'm especially saddened by the suffering of those on this board with major depressive disorders who may not find healing with time. Some have successfully withdrawn from benzodiazepines hoping that will stop their depressive disorders but, I seriously doubt time will heal all of them. History provides many examples of very talented & influential persons who had this disorder and time didn't or hasn't healed them either. Some of these people include Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Robin Williams, Issac Newton ... (see

List of people with major depressive disorder, wikipedia). Many of those in the article never used benzodiazepines, some did & stopped using, some never stopped. Most in that list learned to adapt but continued to suffer. Some in the list chose to catch the bus rather than living in torment. I don't know what exactly can effectively relieve those with major depressive disorders but, time didn't appear to do it for them. The antidepressants currently being prescribed may or may not be of much help, it is up to the individuals & the prescribers to make that determination. There are some alternative remedies, like certain mushrooms & non-approved pharmaceuticals which seem to work better for some people I know. But once again, for them time hasn't healed...

[[La...]]

Well, benzos should not be prescribed to people with MDD, since they're central nervous system depressants, like alcohol. There are non-pharmaceutical options, such as CBT and other talk therapies that can have good outcomes, though, as per the studies. I've posted a number of them in the News section. The SSRIs have major side effects and withdrawal effects that some of us (me included) have been hit hard by...very hard.

[[Fi...]]

Perhaps benzodiazepine & alcohol should not be prescribed for MDD, i believe that should be between the individuals & their doctor(s). However, prescribing "time" as their remedy isn't very effective either is it?

[[La...]]

I think the reference to time as the healer is all about certain symptoms of benzo withdrawal and not about treating MDD -- at least, around here. But benzos are anti-anxiety meds and are not indicated in the medical literature for depression.

[[Fi...]]

I think the reference to time as the healer is all about certain symptoms of benzo withdrawal and not about treating MDD -- at least, around here. But benzos are anti-anxiety meds and are not indicated in the medical literature for depression.

 

I'm not convinced of your use of the phrases 'time as the healer' & 'at least around here'. I regularly check newbie intros & almost all of the moderators reference time as the healer or similar mantras. Additionally, when responding to comments made by other bb members, many if not the majority of fellow members make reference to 'time as the healer' no matter what symptoms they are describing, including MDD. re: the prescribing of benzodiazepine for MDD, perhaps the protocol has changed in the last several years but, prescribing benzodiazepines on a continuing basis was common place not that long ago for MDD and many, many other lesser ailments  & conditions. I'm not trying to attack you but, these are my observations since I've joined the forum.

 

 

[[La...]]

No problem, Fi. Time heals some wounds, but others need treatment. I haven't used that phrase myself, so I don't want to be lumped in with everyone. I make my own decisions about what to do.

 

In terms of medical literature, benzos are usually indicated for anxiety and insomnia, as well as alcohol withdrawal and epilepsy and certain emergency situations. As far as depression goes, the usual pharmaceutical options are SSRIs and TCAs and, I believe, there are MAO inhibitors, but I'm not really familiar with meds other than the SSRIs. For many people, they're extremely problematic (major side effects) and can cause just as horrible a withdrawal syndrome as benzos.

 

For depression, there are non-pharmaceutical options, though, and I do think people should look into those, if they'd rather not deal with pharmaceuticals. Same goes for anxiety. Some examples are talk therapies, meditation, exercise, deep breathing, music, support from friends and family, artistic endeavours, faith/religion, etc. These are all things that can help people get through benzo withdrawal anyway.

 

Some people are trying CBD too, and you can probably find all kinds of threads on that around here. Flumazenil has been tried by some, but apparently, the outcomes are quite variable. Check out the threads on that, if you're interested.

 

And then there are the health-promoting things that everyone should be doing: eating healthy food, practising good sleep hygiene, exercising if possible (some are quite limited, of course), drinking enough water, etc.

 

 

[[...]]

I think the reference to time as the healer is all about certain symptoms of benzo withdrawal and not about treating MDD -- at least, around here. But benzos are anti-anxiety meds and are not indicated in the medical literature for depression.

 

I'm not convinced of your use of the phrases 'time as the healer' & 'at least around here'. I regularly check newbie intros & almost all of the moderators reference time as the healer or similar mantras. Additionally, when responding to comments made by other bb members, many if not the majority of fellow members make reference to 'time as the healer' no matter what symptoms they are describing, including MDD. re: the prescribing of benzodiazepine for MDD, perhaps the protocol has changed in the last several years but, prescribing benzodiazepines on a continuing basis was common place not that long ago for MDD and many, many other lesser ailments  & conditions. I'm not trying to attack you but, these are my observations since I've joined the forum.

 

*Exactly* that, Fi, spot on!

 

No matter what symptoms ... no matter what stage of "withdrawal", whether still tapering or whether seven days or seven years off ... whether they're on other meds with their own side-effects ... whether on and on and on.  These details are inconsequential.  Merely by virtue of being a member of BB, so it becomes a simple "this" (as referenced earlier by FG), and time is the only healer for "this".  And very often, it's even accompanied by a little Gaba-Shmabba-Blabber lesson to add some "authority" I guess. 

 

I'm so glad that you've come along, Fi.   I swear I've been the lone ranger and the most vocal of members, challenging and trying to raise the red flag on this potentially extremely harmful mantra since the day I arrived here.  If it's being used as a platitude, there are other more benign there-theres to say to someone.  It is a completely meaningless mantra and open to interpretation.  Mainly I see it being interpreted as the belief that benzo "healing" takes place on a cellular/neuronal level and, therefore, nothing anyone does will be of any benefit.  No drug, no supplement, no therapy, no rehab, no coping/"curing" strategies will have any effect whatsoever until our Gaba receptors grow back ... something like that. 

 

Like you mentioned earlier, it's a very unpopular position to take and I get a lot of push back and, for the life of me, I genuinely cannot understand what it is that I'm saying that is perceived to be so provocative or controversial. 

 

 

[[La...]]

One need only go to the "Other Medications" and "Alternative Therapies and Supplements" sections to see all of the different things that people are trying.

[[Rx...]]

It does take time for the body to heal from serious physiological injury.  I think it goes without saying one must take as good care of yourself as you can while waiting for time to heal some things.

[[Fi...]]

As with all areas of study & the giving of advice, it is prudent that terms of use be well defined. How do you define "heal"?

"Medical Definition of healing. (Entry 1 of 2) 1 : the act or process of curing or of restoring to health. 2 : the process of getting well."

Using the medical definition, how can our bodies/brains be restored to health or get well from the chemical damage inflicted by benzodiazepines? Science has not found an antidote for benzodiazepines & further, it is now believed by some members of science (2018, see below) that unlike many other organisms used for testing (like mice, rats, monkey's, etc.) adult human brains don’t grow new neurons in the hippocampus, contrary to the prevailing view.

https://theconversation.com/adult-human-brains-dont-grow-new-neurons-in-hippocampus-contrary-to-prevailing-view-93123 and https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25975

[[Rx...]]

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/can-you-grow-new-brain-cells

[[Rx...]]

And https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00052/full.

[[Rx...]]

And https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/apr/05/humans-produce-new-brain-cells-throughout-their-lives-say-researchers.

[[Fi...]]

Reread the 2018 the scientific study on human brains that I posted. Your last reference from the Guardian is not in conflict with that study. Are you willing to gamble your & other's current quality of life that we will be restored to health/healed from chemical brain damage? I'm just a pilgram on a search for truth re: benzodiazepine damage & what I should do about it ... who knows?

[[Rx...]]

Reread the 2018 the scientific study on human brains that I posted. Your last reference from the Guardian is not in conflict with that study. Are you willing to gamble your & other's current quality of life that we will be restored to health/healed from chemical brain damage? I'm just a pilgram on a search for truth re: benzodiazepine damage & what I should do about it ... who knows?

 

Perhaps you should re-read my article you mention posted on human brains.  https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/apr/05/humans-produce-new-brain-cells-throughout-their-lives-say-researchers.  Nobody is arguing with you or wants to, but I can share too.

[[La...]]

If you spend any time reading PubMed and the many, many, many studies that come out, you'll see how often the studies conclude with "more study required". Is there a definitive answer on this issue at this point? What do you make of all of the Success Stories, where people have gotten better?

 

Here's a quote from that study:

 

https://theconversation.com/adult-human-brains-dont-grow-new-neurons-in-hippocampus-contrary-to-prevailing-view-93123

 

"Our study only pertains to the hippocampus; many other brain regions in the human brain – which is very big – have not been investigated and remain to be explored for the possible presence of new neurons. The development of better methods to directly study the human brain will help researchers understand more about how plasticity occurs in the human hippocampus. And future research can work to determine if there are ways to reignite the birth of new neurons in this region."

[[Rx...]]

And https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/eyes-the-brain/201101/how-grow-new-neurons-in-your-brain.  All articles I've cited thus far deal with the human brain.

[[Fl...]]

Additionally, when responding to comments made by other bb members, many if not the majority of fellow members make reference to 'time as the healer' no matter what symptoms they are describing, including MDD.

 

*Exactly* that, Fi, spot on!

 

No matter what symptoms ... no matter what stage of "withdrawal", whether still tapering or whether seven days or seven years off ... whether they're on other meds with their own side-effects ... whether on and on and on.  These details are inconsequential.  Merely by virtue of being a member of BB, so it becomes a simple "this" (as referenced earlier by FG), and time is the only healer for "this". And very often, it's even accompanied by a little Gaba-Shmabba-Blabber lesson to add some "authority" I guess.

 

Now we are getting somewhere. When did this turn into a general health discussion? The "Time heals" mantra assumes that we are talking about damage caused by benzos or other psych drugs.

 

I realize it's hard to tease out what's what and for some people it might even be impossible given their particular situation. But there is only one common theme here on BB, and we are all adults here and unless otherwise stated we should be able to assume that we are talking about the damage that was caused by benzos. Anything else is a totally different conversation.

 

One thing that really bothers me about the attempt to tie benzo damage in with other things is that it puts us right back into "looking for a cure" mode, which in many cases means "looking for a quick fix". And that's what got a lot of us here in the first place.

 

I am not implying that everything should be labeled as benzo damage, but when answers regarding benzos are in short supply it's really tempting to try to find another label, one that comes with actionable "treatments" or "cures". Anyone who has been around this stuff for a coupe of years or more should understand that when it comes to benzo damage specifically, time is really the only thing we know of that provides substantial healing.

 

But if I can just find a different diagnosis maybe there is a something I can actively do so I don't just have to just sit here waiting and hoping...... And were does that often lead? Back to the very drugs that are the one thing all of us here have in common.

 

This discussion and the mention of depression reminded me of this video that was posted on the protracted board a few days ago. Gotzsche makes the same case Robert Whitaker makes- that psych drugs cause the very issues that they are supposed to treat if taken long term. Beginning at about 5:45 he mentions that in the old days depression was looked at as a self limiting disease, but now it is something that has become chronic and that is result of the drugs that are used to supposedly treat it.

 

In other words once you are on psych meds, all bets are off and it becomes nearly impossible to tell what is an effect or after effect of the drug and what is pre-existing or organic. So a lot of what we see as mental illness today is likely a direct result of psych drugs. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how all of this comes together to form a dangerous web.

 

So is the person who finds themselves here on BB really depressed, or is it just another symptom of drug damage? Hearing that time is the only thing that will cure it might be a tough pill to swallow (no pun intended) but when the alternative may lead them back to these insidious, poorly understood neurotoxins that masquerade as cures, it might be wise to ask yourself if your resistance to the idea that time heals is going to help you or hurt you.

[Guest [Sk...]]

 

No matter what symptoms ... no matter what stage of "withdrawal", whether still tapering or whether seven days or seven years off ... whether they're on other meds with their own side-effects ... whether on and on and on.  These details are inconsequential.  Merely by virtue of being a member of BB, so it becomes a simple "this" (as referenced earlier by FG), and time is the only healer for "this".  And very often, it's even accompanied by a little Gaba-Shmabba-Blabber lesson to add some "authority" I guess. 

 

I'm so glad that you've come along, Fi.   I swear I've been the lone ranger and the most vocal of members, challenging and trying to raise the red flag on this potentially extremely harmful mantra since the day I arrived here.  If it's being used as a platitude, there are other more benign there-theres to say to someone.  It is a completely meaningless mantra and open to interpretation.  Mainly I see it being interpreted as the belief that benzo "healing" takes place on a cellular/neuronal level and, therefore, nothing anyone does will be of any benefit.  No drug, no supplement, no therapy, no rehab, no coping/"curing" strategies will have any effect whatsoever until our Gaba receptors grow back ... something like that. 

 

Like you mentioned earlier, it's a very unpopular position to take and I get a lot of push back and, for the life of me, I genuinely cannot understand what it is that I'm saying that is perceived to be so provocative or controversial.

 

well said

 

and Im sure many whom dont post or lurk here are pleased you say this abcd.

 

Some people just dont have the words to express differing opinions like this

or cant handle the forceful push backs that happen again and again,

on many threads I have witnessed and happen  if you express

differing opinions, even on this thread, that is evident  :'(

 

So thank you abcd