Expecting Recovery (Healing)?

[[...]]

Hey FG.  I find that sentence so metaphorical as to be meaningless.

 

I don't know what is metaphorical or meaningless about that statement. It's pretty straightforward- the only thing that has been proven to heal us is time. That doesn't mean that time heals 100%, that just means that it is generally accepted in the benzo community that time does heal and it is probably the only thing that every single person who has ever improved from benzo damage has had in common. So even though there are a few people here and there that claim that this or that has helped them (I'm not saying that nothing else can help, just that there isn't much evidence that says that it can) none of this will likely ever be proven because everyone has also had the benefit of time.

 

.....I don't know how to reply to that, maybe you can rephrase what you mean more literally.  Time brings all things to pass.  It can be our ally and our worst enemy and, depending on who's walking in those shoes of time, it can produce some very different outcomes. 

 

As far as a cure for "this".  What exactly is this "this" of which you speak?   You have your "this", I have mine and everyone else has their own unique "this".  There's no broad brush, it's extremely individual and it's also a moving target with a myriad of different pieces.

 

You're just talking in circles and throwing up a smokescreen. You know what "this" is. Our symptoms might manifest themselves a little differently with each person but you can't tell me that we aren't all suffering from the same illness. It might be tempting to look at the disease from a through the lens of the discombobulated manner in which the symptoms present themselves but the reality is that we are all suffering from the same thing.

 

Of course that doesn't mean that everyone will respond to "treatments" the same way, but you aren't going to convince me that it is a completely unique experience for everyone who goes through it.

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone has also had the benefit of time?  Umm but, oh, never mind. 

Here, Fi's not talking in circles and throwing up smokescreens.  Maybe you'd prefer to argue it out with him.

 

in my humble opinion it is reckless at best and bordering upon deception to suggest that people will 'heal with time' merely by the cessation from long-term benzodiazepine use. Many studies and this meta-analysis of multiple studies indicate the opposite is true. Hint, use it or lose it.

 

Hope and faith may be comforting for some and that may in the end be the best treatment for most but, it may be fatally harmful to misuse such emotions to plan one's future or to plan for the future of loved ones.

 

Promoting to most people the perception that symptoms caused by the use & cessation from long-term benzodiazepine use will be healed with time' may be as negligent and as harmful or more harmful for some as was the practice of prescribing benzodiazepines for long-term use in the first place.

 

The aforementioned studies statistically indicate that time alone does not heal the effects from using and stopping the use of benzodiazepines in the long-term (less than 42 months).

 

More aggressive treatment than 'time and healing' may be indicated for relief &/or rehabilitation from the symptoms of long-term benzodiazepine use. Those treatments may include the assistance of providers from  medical, spiritual, mental, physical, and other communities. Ultimately, it is up to us as individuals to decide what those treatments will be, from whom we will seek them and how, where & when we will utilize them.

 

 

 

LF, I was about to post and saw your comment.  As you well know, there are layers upon layers upon layers to "this", we're not talking about your everyday mosquito bite.  One more time I'll say it.  For people to go running around from pillar to post without any regard or interest in anyone's individual symptoms or (sometimes very complicated) backstory, and promoting to all and sundry that no matter what they may try to *DO* to help themselves, it is all for naught and a complete waste of their time and effort because their recovery is all in the lap of the Gods or the Universe or divine intervention.  That there is a travesty and completely beyond my realm of comprehension!!!

[[Lo...]]

I extend my appreciation to bb's & its members for promoting an ongoing discussion of the tragedy of long-term benzodiazepine use & cessation. best wishes!  

 

I understand, abcd, but Fi Addendum has clearly opened this thread as a discussion thread. Of course, I would feel beyond hopeless if my doctor had dropped my long term benzo dose to a 1/16th of the original over the course of 2 months. This is one of those situations where changing doctors (if at all possible) may be needed while a person actually still has the energy to do that.

 

Yes, in Fi Addendum case, there's a better healer than time, and that is finding a doctor who knows what reasonable taper is or who will maintain the benzo script at the level before the taper if Fi Addendum chooses to stay on them.

 

If I were being pushed in such fast tapers by a doctor, I would not really rely on any internet boards and would find another doctor who is more knowledgeable about benzodiazepines, or a doctor who is not under the gun (for whatever reason) to stop prescribing them.

[[Te...]]

in my humble opinion it is reckless at best and bordering upon deception to suggest that people will 'heal with time'

merely by the cessation from long-term benzodiazepine use.

 

I am more and more convinced that how one goes about ceasing long-term benzodiazepine use is an extremely important topic that gets very little attention. There is a lot of awareness about the long-term dangers of benzo use, but I don't seem to notice any kind of agreement anywhere as far to how these drugs should be stopped, should anyone decide to stop taking them in the first place. Apparently some people think that tapering too long is prolonging the agony and would rather get off of these meds ASAP, while others claim that doing it slowly and steadily is the only tried & true way to succeed. I have not seen any sort of consensus on this. Apparently, each person is very much on their own. Up the creek without a paddle.

 

I absolutely agree with you that how one goes about ceasing benzo use is an extremely important topic that hasn't gotten coverage at all. I think a person should be mindful of this even if they've only been on them 10 days. I think one must start out SLOWLY at first to see what their CNS can take, make an assessment, and then proceed from there. I have read posts again and again saying that getting off these meds quickly is going to heal them faster. Unfortunately, that's NOT the case. We are talking about nerves here, which we all know take a long time to heal. Something that takes a long time to heal isn't going to respond well to being yanked off a drug. But some people can take it faster. I still think, however, that they should start out very slow just to see what they can take.

 

For those who have had no problem getting off the drug once or a number of times, they should know that a benzo can never be trusted and to not be rash.

 

Of course, all of this is more easily said than done. People who are in dire straits or feeling tolerance issues tend to make quick decisions that may not be good ones. There needs to be a manual on this so that doctors won't tell their patients "it's such a low dose. Just stop taking it." BAD advice.

 

 

[[Te...]]

I extend my appreciation to bb's & its members for promoting an ongoing discussion of the tragedy of long-term benzodiazepine use & cessation. best wishes!  

 

I understand, abcd, but Fi Addendum has clearly opened this thread as a discussion thread. Of course, I would feel beyond hopeless if my doctor had dropped my long term benzo dose to a 1/16th of the original over the course of 2 months. This is one of those situations where changing doctors (if at all possible) may be needed while a person actually still has the energy to do that.

 

Yes, in Fi Addendum case, there's a better healer than time, and that is finding a doctor who knows what reasonable taper is or who will maintain the benzo script at the level before the taper if Fi Addendum chooses to stay on them.

 

If I were being pushed in such fast tapers by a doctor, I would not really rely on any internet boards and would find another doctor who is more knowledgeable about benzodiazepines, or a doctor who is not under the gun (for whatever reason) to stop prescribing them.

 

Do doctors even realize that nerves are at stake here??? I'm wondering...surely if they did, they wouldn't be so stupid to advise rapid tapers and c/ts. That's what I don't understand. Why are they giving such clueless advice???

[[mo...]]

I’m a bit baffled as to how anyone here over any length of time could really think it is anything else but the natural curative effects and internal processes inside us over time which heal damage by benzos. I agree that it’s not really going to be any other thing aside from a complete miracle from God if anyone is really able to heal by any other means.

 

What on earth are you all talking about here who are in outrage over this fact? Are you suggesting by some unknown until now miracle solution of “using it” that I could have gotten up, showered and gotten ready, made myself breakfast and gone out in my car looking for jobs while I was two months in to my rapid taper off Klonopin? Would I have made things happen more quickly going out in screaming pain and terror every day by “using it” and proceeding to go on with life as if nothing were happening, like a complete lunatic?

 

I’m a little freaking lost... was there some unknown cure I was f-ing missing? Was some genie of a professional or some miracle counter-effect drug out there that could have saved me all this time? What in the living hell is anyone in outrage over in regard to time being the one common factor for every last one of us? Did one person speed this sh*t along with diet or lullabies, professional massage?

 

Who the hell are these professionals and what are these super-treatments and cures you are all keeping secret, where is the magic wands you guys are alluding to? And what is there to be upset about? Did everyone else here miss something?

 

Of course, as a fully grown adult, I am perfectly stark, broad light-or-day aware that I will need to do something else apart from relying on time itself to now again have something resembling a functioning life after enough time in this mess. This is called the “no-crap I’m an adult and I may need to do a few things to take care of myself to have a tollerable life common sense approach to living and breathing.” I was also aware that, ideally, a slower taper would have been preferable, made sooner, but what professional would have done this for me— the answer folks, was none. Not one in my area, with my insurance. And they sure screwed it up for me a bunch a long the way, so that I felt forced into things playing out for me the way they did.

 

So yes; a “benzo-wise,” good enough Dr. was what I needed. I don’t know what you’d call the one I ended up with, I’d suppose you could call him that, but he wasn’t going to help me with my taper or switch me to Valium (thank God, actually for the second thing there.)

 

Sorry, I get firey again, but sorry and not altogether sorry because what other kind of advice is there apart from the basic stuff we know here already... which boiled down, comes down to— time!

 

 

What loving community, amazing miracle herbs, art therapy, magical exercise routine, etc., etc., are we talking about here? Which support groups or incantations have we left out? Was there a positive psychology book that was going to save my a** from this living nightmare on earth?

 

There is a sweet poster here or two who seem to be upset that the message “time heals ‘this’” is our best “cure,” would someone inform me as to what the freak else can help in our hideously unfortunate positions that no one has really talked about until “now”? What glorious wisdom have we all missed, that isn’t or shouldn’t be or isn’t already implicitly common-sense, grown adult knowledge?

 

Please, enlighten us and you refrain from talking in metaphors. What extra help and wisdom is out there that we are all so foolishly missing?

 

And I find myself again agreeing with LF, in that we are not all that different. We are comfortingly or disappointingly, all, very much basically alike... whichever way you want to look at it.

[[mo...]]

Also, I tend to agree in not censoring the facts, point aside... what on God’s green earth are we now talking about here is what I’m curious about discovering.

 

Yes, I personally prefer facts and the truth as a rule. I don’t think those things generally should be hidden from adults who need to make all manner of their own decisions in life and in so doing should try and be as informed as possible.

 

I’m not someone who loves gory media or to observe real life horrors on the news and such, that isn’t my thing at all, but this ridiculous censoring of things we have to work through and understand and “needing” to label every little thing with a “trigger warning,” in our society these days and baby everyone in every little thing... it’s obnoxious in my opinion.

[[...]]

Also, I tend to agree in not censoring the facts, point aside... what on God’s green earth are we now talking about here is what I’m curious about discovering.

 

Yes, I personally prefer facts and the truth as a rule. I don’t think those things generally should be hidden from adults who need to make all manner of their own decisions in life and in so doing should try and be as informed as possible.

 

I’m not someone who loves gory media or to observe real life horrors on the news and such, that isn’t my thing at all, but this ridiculous censoring of things we have to work through and understand and “needing” to label every little thing with a “trigger warning,” in our society these days and baby everyone in every little thing... it’s obnoxious in my opinion.

 

Benzobuddies isn’t a typical society, it’s a very unique collective community full of individuals with for the most part extremely compromised nervous systems. A “trigger warning” can both midigate the potential melt downs that those individuals would have, while also allowing you to make your informed decisions.

 

 

[[La...]]

Hi All,

Going back to the study here:

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321856301_The_Residual_Medium_and_Long-term_Cognitive_Effects_of_Benzodiazepine_Use_An_Updated_Meta-analysis 

 

Check Table 2. What do you think the line that's second to the bottom refers to, i.e. "Length of abstinence at follow-up", and how does it differ from "Time since withdrawal (months)"?

 

I'm re-posting my question here, just in case anyone has the time and inclination to take a look at the study and weigh in on what I've asked. I'd really appreciate it.

 

 

[[Fi...]]

I'm only guessing but, "Nineteen studies were included in this meta-analysis.";  "Table 2 presents the summary statistics for all studies." :. 6 of the studies presented "Time since withdrawal" of "0.5 - 42 Months"; 2 of the studies presented "Length of Abstinence at follow up" "6-10" (The meta-analysis doesn't present but, it may be 6-10 months).

 

The meta-analysis appears to combine studies which measured & presented data using different variables to arrive at its conclusion. As you stated, it would be more useful to view the underlying studies and arrive at one's own conclusion(s). ... Just my guess?

[[Lo...]]

Is it better for individuals to withdraw from these drugs & suffer life-long physical & mental distress or is it better for them to remain on the drugs for as long as they are providing some comfort? I know, it's different for everyone. If that's true, why are governments, doctors & others suggesting, persuading & coercing most patients to withdraw? Is it in the best interest of the patients? I can more easily prepare for the future when I learn the facts of the past & present. The mantra of "you will heal in time" does not appear to be supported by facts.

 

Those are some pretty good questions, actually. I suppose that there may be two groups of people who have found themselves here.

 

1) People who have developed distressing to severe problems on their benzodiazepines and are looking for help.

2) People who have managed ok enough on their long-term prescription and have been forced into a taper by their doctor,

    which put them in an unstable situation.

 

So, if people in #2 do not wish to withdraw, I certainly understand why. They should  have a right to stay on their prescription and decide for themselves what to do.

 

#1 is more complicated, because many in this group may already be very visibly suffering with interdose withdrawal, relative withdrawal, and other very disturbing symptoms that the solution isn't clear.

 

In, either case, both #1 and #2 should be allowed repeat prescriptions and the ability to decide how to keep living.

 

 

[[La...]]

I'm only guessing but, "Nineteen studies were included in this meta-analysis.";  "Table 2 presents the summary statistics for all studies." :. 6 of the studies presented "Time since withdrawal" of "0.5 - 42 Months"; 2 of the studies presented "Length of Abstinence at follow up" "6-10" (The meta-analysis doesn't present but, it may be 6-10 months).

 

The meta-analysis appears to combine studies which measured & presented data using different variables to arrive at its conclusion. As you stated, it would be more useful to view the underlying studies and arrive at one's own conclusion(s). ... Just my guess?

 

Thanks, Fi. It's just that the two phrases sound quite similar to me. In any case, the bottom line seems to be that 42 is the maximum anyone was followed, but 7.7 months is the mean. There's a huge gulf between those two numbers when it comes to benzo withdrawal follow-up.

 

The other thing is that most of the people currently taking benzos had cognitive issues. Staying on them longer wouldn't make that better.

[[mo...]]

Also, I tend to agree in not censoring the facts, point aside... what on God’s green earth are we now talking about here is what I’m curious about discovering.

 

Yes, I personally prefer facts and the truth as a rule. I don’t think those things generally should be hidden from adults who need to make all manner of their own decisions in life and in so doing should try and be as informed as possible.

 

I’m not someone who loves gory media or to observe real life horrors on the news and such, that isn’t my thing at all, but this ridiculous censoring of things we have to work through and understand and “needing” to label every little thing with a “trigger warning,” in our society these days and baby everyone in every little thing... it’s obnoxious in my opinion.

 

Benzobuddies isn’t a typical society, it’s a very unique collective community full of individuals with for the most part extremely compromised nervous systems. A “trigger warning” can both midigate the potential melt downs that those individuals would have, while also allowing you to make your informed decisions.

 

That’s fair, I guess I have some internal issues coming up right now (again.) I see your point, thanks for saying this in a kind way to me. Sorry about being harsh, it does make sense.

[[Fl...]]

For people to go running around from pillar to post without any regard or interest in anyone's individual symptoms or (sometimes very complicated) backstory, and promoting to all and sundry that no matter what they may try to *DO* to help themselves, it is all for naught and a complete waste of their time and effort because their recovery is all in the lap of the Gods or the Universe or divine intervention.  That there is a travesty and completely beyond my realm of comprehension!!!

 

Putting aside the implication that it is somehow possible to tailor a treatment for this based upon a person's health history or individual symptoms (I don't even know where someone could begin to argue this), I am not aware of anyone who preaches that it is impossible for anything but time to positively affect healing, only that time is the only thing that we know substantially affects healing. And the idea that recovery is in the hand of divine intervention? There is a huge difference between having faith in the body's ability to heal itself (which is a scientific fact) and believing that healing is in the hands of some divine being.

 

If I didn't know any better I would think that you are taking the position that what we are experiencing is nothing more than a pre-existing mental illness.

[[Fi...]]

Lapis2, "The other thing is that most of the people currently taking benzos had cognitive issues. Staying on them longer wouldn't make that better." I agree with you there however, discontinuing benzos may make that worse. That is the main concern that I have & was the reason I initially started this thread. LorazepamFree2015 nicely summarized things:

 

"I suppose that there may be two groups of people who have found themselves here.

 

1) People who have developed distressing to severe problems on their benzodiazepines and are looking for help.

2) People who have managed ok enough on their long-term prescription and have been forced into a taper by their doctor,

    which put them in an unstable situation.

 

So, if people in #2 do not wish to withdraw, I certainly understand why. They should  have a right to stay on their prescription and decide for themselves what to do.

 

#1 is more complicated, because many in this group may already be very visibly suffering with interdose withdrawal, relative withdrawal, and other very disturbing symptoms that the solution isn't clear.

 

In, either case, both #1 and #2 should be allowed repeat prescriptions and the ability to decide how to keep living."

 

Thank you & I'm sorry for causing anyone grief. 

 

[[Fi...]]

However, I still think it's naive or disingenuous to suggest that people will heal by simply discontinuing benzos & having faith in time or whatever. It would be more accurate to say people may heal (or at least adjust) to discontinuing benzos in time.

[[Fl...]]

I’m a bit baffled as to how anyone here over any length of time could really think it is anything else but the natural curative effects and internal processes inside us over time which heal damage by benzos.

 

I think that people take other positions out of fear or simply because of their personality type. I am the kind of person who takes comfort in understanding and accepting the facts (or at least the facts as I interpret them with the information I have available) but some folks seem to have the need to feel a greater sense of control, even if that means ignoring the information that is in front of them.

 

This fear, desperation or need for control is what is responsible for the theory that you can help yourself heal if you just find the treatment that is right for YOU. There may be some kind of undiscovered cure out there and maybe certain things do help certain people to an extent but I haven't seen any convincing evidence that would make me want to pursue that path.

 

I don't blame anyone for going down that road. Early on I tried a couple of supplements myself in the hope that I might find some relief, but of course nothing really provided any relief and eventually reality set in and I couldn't ignore the fact that people on BB were trying everything under the sun and there simply wasn't any kind of consensus as to what might work. I think at some point everyone realizes that utilizing anything but common sense health practices to help heal is fighting a losing fight. It just takes some people longer than others to reach that conclusion.

 

The great thing is that time is everyone's friend, and it doesn't care what you believe, it will continue to work it's miracles regardless of what we believe.

 

What on earth are you all talking about here who are in outrage over this fact? Are you suggesting by some unknown until now miracle solution of “using it” that I could have gotten up, showered and gotten ready, made myself breakfast and gone out in my car looking for jobs while I was two months in to my rapid taper off Klonopin? Would I have made things happen more quickly going out in screaming pain and terror every day by “using it” and proceeding to go on with life as if nothing were happening, like a complete lunatic?

 

Early on I actually had BB's suggest that if I wasn't willing to shovel down handfulls of supplements that I wasn't really trying to help myself. I was suffering just as much as they were but for some reason I wanted to be sick or I just wasn't willing to put the effort into trying to fix myself. That is what made me realize that some people just think differently than I do and they have to take their own path on this journey.

 

Of course, as a fully grown adult, I am perfectly stark, broad light-or-day aware that I will need to do something else apart from relying on time itself to now again have something resembling a functioning life after enough time in this mess. This is called the “no-crap I’m an adult and I may need to do a few things to take care of myself to have a tollerable life common sense approach to living and breathing.”

 

Some folks don't seem to understand that it isn't an all or nothing deal. I don't believe in the mad scramble to find a cure but I do advocate common sense health and life practices. Eating right, getting the best sleep possible, staying active, being social and pushing yourself forward as best you can will help anyone.

 

 

[[Fl...]]

However, I still think it's naive or disingenuous to suggest that people will heal by simply discontinuing benzos & having faith in time or whatever. It would be more accurate to say people may heal (or at least adjust) to discontinuing benzos in time.

 

True, but it is important to keep in mind that it is impossible to know what these drugs are really doing to us while we are on them. So while we might seem to be doing better on the drugs than off if you look at a snapshot in time, it isn't always that simple to determine what is helping and what is hurting you. This needs to be factored in when someone makes a decision about whether to start taking or to continue using these drugs.

[[La...]]

Responding to your earlier post, Fi (but I see that many replies have intervened while I was writing!):

 

Yes, true, Fi. I was in position #1, and I'm guessing you're in position #2 now. If you're comfortable, and your feeling is that things will not necessarily get worse, then staying on the meds is obviously a viable option for you. You can always make the decision to get off at some later date.

 

And you never know...maybe more info will become available that will affect that decision! That is, perhaps there will be a better understanding of who will have a decent withdrawal and who won't, or perhaps we'll have better knowledge about how best to withdraw (e.g. which taper method) or even how to speed up the healing after withdrawal.

 

How are you feeling at this stage of the game?

[[Fi...]]

However, I still think it's naive or disingenuous to suggest that people will heal by simply discontinuing benzos & having faith in time or whatever. It would be more accurate to say people may heal (or at least adjust) to discontinuing benzos in time.

 

True, but it is important to keep in mind that it is impossible to know what these drugs are really doing to us while we are on them. So while we might seem to be doing better on the drugs than off if you look at a snapshot in time, it isn't always that simple to determine what is helping and what is hurting you. This needs to be factored in when someone makes a decision about whether to start taking or to continue using these drugs.

 

It is not impossible to know some of the things these drugs are doing to us. Simple cognitive & neurological tests & examinations can identify some of the extent of the damages. A simple physical/cognitive examination by a doctor performed prior to a tapering process compared with one during the tapering process compared with one post taper will easily identify the types of symptoms and their severity. A conscientious doctor could then adjust or even halt cessation if that is in the best interests of the patient & society. Perhaps these simple examinations should be standard operating procedures for doctors before they initiate a taper, during a taper & post taper?

[[mo...]]

Thanks FG, I guess one of the responses here just seemed oddly dramatic to me, and nonsensical. But maybe I am just feeling irritable and it was judgmental of me.

 

I hope that you find your way in this Fi, you didn’t really cause me any grief by posting, personally... and I don’t think that probably matters so much anyway. Maybe I was simply unclear on what it was you and others were trying to say. You come off as fairly  polite and diplomatic to me, in your expression.

 

It seems possible to veer off on a point or some points and return to the OP, that doesn’t seem like such a crazy thing to me or like the original poster needs extra help or defending in this. If I make a thread I am happy to have it go off track a little, usually it’s just nice to have the ‘contact’ of others since this whole experience can be so lonely— but again, that’s just me.

[[La...]]

However, I still think it's naive or disingenuous to suggest that people will heal by simply discontinuing benzos & having faith in time or whatever. It would be more accurate to say people may heal (or at least adjust) to discontinuing benzos in time.

 

True, but it is important to keep in mind that it is impossible to know what these drugs are really doing to us while we are on them. So while we might seem to be doing better on the drugs than off if you look at a snapshot in time, it isn't always that simple to determine what is helping and what is hurting you. This needs to be factored in when someone makes a decision about whether to start taking or to continue using these drugs.

 

It is not impossible to know some of the things these drugs are doing to us. Simple cognitive & neurological tests & examinations can identify some of the extent of the damages. A simple physical/cognitive examination by a doctor performed prior to a tapering process compared with one during the tapering process compared with one post taper will easily identify the types of symptoms and their severity. A conscientious doctor could then adjust or even halt cessation if that is in the best interests of the patient & society. Perhaps these simple examinations should be standard operating procedures for doctors before they initiate a taper, during a taper & post taper?

 

Great points, Fi! If we had before, during and after tests for each individual, then we could learn a lot more. However, that would mean that doctors acknowledge the possible damage caused by benzos, and I'm not sure we're there yet. Most of us weren't given enough information before starting the meds, so we weren't in a position to give proper informed consent that yes, indeed, we wanted to take the risks that we did. I'd like to see tests such as CT scans and MRIs (and other appropriate tests) of brains, but I know it won't happen. This is the kind of information that we require, though, in order to really be able to say what happens to an individual when s/he takes a benzo long term.

[[Lo...]]

 

I think that people take other positions out of fear or simply because of their personality type. I am the kind of person who takes comfort in understanding and accepting the facts (or at least the facts as I interpret them with the information I have available) but some folks seem to have the need to feel a greater sense of control, even if that means ignoring the information that is in front of them.

 

This fear, desperation or need for control is what is responsible for the theory that you can help yourself heal if you just find the treatment that is right for YOU. There may be some kind of undiscovered cure out there and maybe certain things do help certain people to an extent but I haven't seen any convincing evidence that would make me want to pursue that path.

 

I don't blame anyone for going down that road. Early on I tried a couple of supplements myself in the hope that I might find some relief, but of course nothing really provided any relief and eventually reality set in and I couldn't ignore the fact that people on BB were trying everything under the sun and there simply wasn't any kind of consensus as to what might work. I think at some point everyone realizes that utilizing anything but common sense health practices to help heal is fighting a losing fight. It just takes some people longer than others to reach that conclusion.

 

These are some very astute observations, FG. I have often wondered what thinking led me from here to there and back, and yes, I think that personality types and wanting to have some sense of control is a huge part of this.

 

But yes, I notice that "righ treatment for YOU" approach a lot in the mental health system in general. I always remember this belief of being on right kind of medication, getting the right kind of therapy....finding whatever works for you, me, etc.

 

And then, when things go haywire, then it also becomes "doing the right thing for you, finding the right doctor, right mix of medication, right dosage, right supplements, therapies, exercises, etc."

 

So, yes. One may be able to do well enough with this mental health "empower" model for quite a while, but when dealing with disempowering and downright dangerous consequeneces of psychiatric drugs, this model started to ring very hollow to me.

 

I suppose that listening to some relaxing and affirming distraction audio may help a bit with this, but it's not a cure. I think some people do accept that "train the brain, act like all this is psychological" simply as a survival mechanism, and I certainly and completely understand why they would do it if it helps them. But if the suffering is very profoundly physiological in nature, the CBT and distraction audio may help a tiny bit, but are far from any concrete solution for this.

 

So at best, the mental health system is a means to an end, meaning that some therapy or/and very short-course of some kind of a psych drug could help a person initially in getting through rough periods in their lives, but, as the time goes and the problems mount, these approaches will certainly show their severe limitations and at some point could cause more harm than good.

 

At worst, the mental health system is also means to an end in a sense that one has to stay in it to have any quality of life or to slowly disengage from it, hoping for the better future outside of it.

[[ci...]]

However, I still think it's naive or disingenuous to suggest that people will heal by simply discontinuing benzos & having faith in time or whatever. It would be more accurate to say people may heal (or at least adjust) to discontinuing benzos in time.

 

True, but it is important to keep in mind that it is impossible to know what these drugs are really doing to us while we are on them. So while we might seem to be doing better on the drugs than off if you look at a snapshot in time, it isn't always that simple to determine what is helping and what is hurting you. This needs to be factored in when someone makes a decision about whether to start taking or to continue using these drugs.

 

It is not impossible to know some of the things these drugs are doing to us. Simple cognitive & neurological tests & examinations can identify some of the extent of the damages. A simple physical/cognitive examination by a doctor performed prior to a tapering process compared with one during the tapering process compared with one post taper will easily identify the types of symptoms and their severity. A conscientious doctor could then adjust or even halt cessation if that is in the best interests of the patient & society. Perhaps these simple examinations should be standard operating procedures for doctors before they initiate a taper, during a taper & post taper?

 

Great points, Fi! If we had before, during and after tests for each individual, then we could learn a lot more. However, that would mean that doctors acknowledge the possible damage caused by benzos, and I'm not sure we're there yet. Most of us weren't given enough information before starting the meds, so we weren't in a position to give proper informed consent that yes, indeed, we wanted to take the risks that we did. I'd like to see tests such as CT scans and MRIs (and other appropriate tests) of brains, but I know it won't happen. This is the kind of information that we require, though, in order to really be able to say what happens to an individual when s/he takes a benzo long term.

 

The thing is that you cannot isolate the change as cause and effect from benzos.  Someone may have onset of dementia or Alzheimer’s happening concurrently.  How to control for the change?  That is why there is ever the loophole that says benzos may be correlated but not necessarily causal relationship.

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True. And that's why the study that we've been looking at in this thread also has to be understood to have limitations. There can always be confounding factors involved. There ARE some things that are known about benzodiazepines and their side effects, but genetics play a big role, as do other factors, like concurrent medications, age, health issues, alcohol and cigarette use, etc.

 

The thing with studies, though, is that they add to the body of knowledge, and if we had before, during and after testing, we could learn a fair amount. Science moves forward gradually, over time, with puzzle pieces gradually added to the overall picture.

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Also, I tend to agree in not censoring the facts, point aside... what on God’s green earth are we now talking about here is what I’m curious about discovering.

 

Yes, I personally prefer facts and the truth as a rule. I don’t think those things generally should be hidden from adults who need to make all manner of their own decisions in life and in so doing should try and be as informed as possible.

 

I’m not someone who loves gory media or to observe real life horrors on the news and such, that isn’t my thing at all, but this ridiculous censoring of things we have to work through and understand and “needing” to label every little thing with a “trigger warning,” in our society these days and baby everyone in every little thing... it’s obnoxious in my opinion.

 

Benzobuddies isn’t a typical society, it’s a very unique collective community full of individuals with for the most part extremely compromised nervous systems. A “trigger warning” can both midigate the potential melt downs that those individuals would have, while also allowing you to make your informed decisions.

 

That’s fair, I guess I have some internal issues coming up right now (again.) I see your point, thanks for saying this in a kind way to me. Sorry about being harsh, it does make sense.

 

No problem at all 👍 I’ve been a bit harsh myself...whoever myself is at the moment 😶