Initial 5 or 10% Valium taper?

[[Bu...]]

Thank you so much, Jim. 

 

I called two pharmacies and they said they could create the .1 mg/ml dissolved with alcohol.  Does this look correct in terms of the numbers?  I've dropped to 9 mg. 

 

 

https://imgur.com/a/vFXlEDJ

 

https://imgur.com/a/oiAdEj7

[[Ji...]]

Hi Buddy8

 

It seems all OK to me.

 

One suggestion, from day 1 to day 88 during the taper of dose 1, take the second dose of 5 mg in tablet to save the liquid.

 

[[Ji...]]

Hi Buddy8

 

For the imgur pics to directly display in the post, do the following:

 

1. While on the pic to share, go to Share Options/Copy and click on the popping Get Share Links

 

2. Then click Copy on BBCODE (Forums) to save the link to clipboard

 

3. Paste the clipboard to your post.

 

 

[[Bu...]]

Thanks so much! 

[[Ly...]]

Thank you, Builder, I just saw your message.  Missed seeing it earlier.  Thanks for reassurance that I can add liquid dosage to other solution/etc. without affecting it adversely.  Thanks for all your help, too.  Sorry to have frustrated you with all my questions and difficulties.  Things are going more smoothly now.  Blessings to you, too.

[[Ji...]]

Hi LynnM

 

Things are going more smoothly now.

Wow! Happy to learn it! When you started to take the first liquid dose 3 weeks ago, you may not realize it but you are already halfway out with most hurdles cleared. Like many other buddies you will come out healed. Keep on reducing slow, gentle and don't try to rush!

 

[[Ly...]]

Thanks, Jim.  My doctor just told me the same thing today.  He was very surprised and PLEASED to see your taper chart.  I hope he considers it with other patients who may be having trouble, too.  My husband explained to him about the microliquidtapering using the syringes and he was intrigued.

 

I have SEVERE hyperacusis since tapering last Sept and that has complicated things a lot because the anxiety from the extreme pain and inability to play my instruments [i'm a multi-instrumentalist], watch TV, socialize, go ANYWHERE without pain and anxiety from it all, has made this extra hard.  But I am trying to relax through it all and hope that the hyperacusis calms down as the anxiety from the withdrawal smooths out.  Back to reading.  I was an avid reader, too. 

 

I really want off this stuff NOW, but am learning [difficult to do since I used to be very, very active] to be more patient.  Very hard when I know how bad the drug is for me, too, but going too fast has taught me lessons I won't forget.  Doctor thinks I may be going too fast since my hyperacusis is so severe.  I might need to slow it a bit since the hyperacusis makes me more anxious and that makes the whole process much more complicated and difficult.

 

Thanks so much for your encouragement!

[[Ji...]]

Hi Buddy8

 

I've started to notice my hair is falling out.  I've lost a lot of weight since May

If you have the chance like me to go around reading posts from different forums you will see that those symptoms are only too common. Actually many buddies have the same symptoms. Those symptoms will subside along the reduction of benzo in your body. It is a painful, slow process and everybody is tempted to accelerate it. The good point is that you will be back the person you were before you took benzo. But you need to not hurry.

 

I feel like the Valium is making me really sick

It actually makes sick a lot more people than you can imagine. Sometimes I wonder if users are allergic to a particular excipient that has nothing to do with the therapeutic action of benzo itself: binding materials, dyes, preservatives, flavoring agents... Given individual variations, one can have an allergic reaction to an inactive excipient in one generic and not another. I wonder:

- Is Valium the only benzo you have been taking so far?

- Have you by any chance switched from brand name to generic?

 

I don't know how to get through this.

There is no miracle remedy when it comes to benzo taper. Time and method are the most important elements but the other not less important thing is your state of mind. Do your best to keep your mood up (easy to say!). I once was volunteer in a pediatric hospital. That one-year period taught me a lot. I remember one little boy of about 5 who couldn't talk because his oesophagus was burnt by a caustic solution he thought was 7-Up. The amazing thing was his reaction when it comes to talk about his illness. He was NEVER KEEN TO TALK ABOUT HIS ILLNESS! He took it as an evident thing and never asked, like adults do, why those things happened to him. I still remember when I came for visit the little man never stopped to run all around me and pulling me, pushing me, whispering (could not talk) to me, loosing himself in things he happened to find under his hands to show me his achievements. Never once I heard him cry or complain. He's not a single case and with them children I've come to learn and most importantly accept that suffering is part of the human kind. It took me a long period to think like that.

 

but I desperately want to get off of it.  I feel like the longer I'm on it the more it's poisoning me.

The point is that would you accept to kick benzo quickly out of your body by paying the toll of long years of protracted symptoms long after the last dose? Many buddies WRONGLY believe that their benzo-related problem would end with the last dose of drug. While it could be true for certain buddies, for others symptoms simply continue in absence of benzo. Moreover for some reasons those symptoms seem to be new or even worse compared to when one was tapering and with no sign to subside. Hope I do not frighten you while trying to put you in the perspective. Need to say that this risk is very much reduced for people who taper slowly and gently where time target setting has no role to play in it.

 

We can see over and over again that a taper method can better suit than another. One method can create ordeal while another just fixes the problem. I would start to liquid taper with reduction on a daily basis and let's see how things may turn out in 2-3 week time. Until then all my best wishes for a smooth journey.

 

[[Bu...]]

Thanks for the response, Jim.  I haven't switched to a generic, but when this mess first started I took Klonopin for 2.5 weeks then was very wrongly switched over to Ativan for 6 weeks and now I'm on Valium, which has caused hair loss, oral thrush and a bacterial infection in my stomach.  I met with my doctor last night and he thinks the daily micro-dosing is too complicated.  He is open to dropping .1 mg every 2 days for 14 days without working with a compounding pharmacy.  He thinks I'm obsessed with the process, but it's because I'm trying to find the right path.  I'm also relocating to a less hectic environment to be closer to the family because I live in a large city and I can't do this on my own.  I'm hoping the stress-free environment will help my overall mood.  I'm still cutting pills every 14 days and hoping to speak with the doc again.  It is definitely important to keep up the mood and be appreciative of life even in this situation.  Thanks for sharing that story.  Any other words of wisdom you can share about how to get him on board with the daily micro-dosing would be very helpful.  I know the slow taper is the right path.  He also prescribed Seroquel and I've not taken it.           

[[Ji...]]

Hi Buddy8

 

I trusted in my neurologist and ended up closed in the benzo prison for 3.5 years. You trusted your doctor and ended up with unsettling symptoms you believe you've got from the switch. Now as the doctor (same?) asked you to taper the way he thinks then you are going to trust him once again. How many times I happened to read in the forum: "I wish I haven't done what my doctor asked!".

 

I'm by no means against doctors but, by my own experience and by so many posts read in here, when it comes to benzo taper prescribed by a doctor a warning flag automatically raises up in my mind. It accentuates in your case when I read "...He thinks I'm obsessed with the process...". It may indicate that he is not benzo aware enough. There are however precise reasons why many doctors remain benzo-uneducated. While the horror stories you see here are true, they do not happen to the majority of benzo users. Many people can get off from benzo with only mild symptoms while others can even stop their drug with no symptoms at all. Those lucky people do not come here to post. According to some authorities, this figure may be as high as 50% even after a year of chronic usage. This is why people with withdrawal problems are not seriously considered by doctors who wrongly think those are a few sporadic cases. Few months after my taper finished I had a chance to talk again with my GP. She confirmed to me that as many of her patients could get out cold turkey all right, she was going to propose me to do the same thing. I'm lucky she didn't.

 

Whatever you decide to do, have a smooth, eventless journey!

 

[[Bu...]]

I completely agree with you, but he's not the doc who switched me from klonipin to ativan to valium so I have to be careful because he said we can do the Ashton Manual of cutting 5 to 10% every 2 weeks and then move to liquid at 5 mg.  I've been on Valium for 2.5 months and though I don't think it agrees with me, I'm not quite sure what to do at this point, but continue tapering off the Valium?  Switch to the original drug?  I'm seeing him again and will implore a micro daily cut with liquid.  This is almost 4 months into the process and two months of tapering.  I'm feeling better today and holding at 9 mg.  I appreciate your guidance and advice immensely.     

[[Bu...]]

Hey Jim,

 

I have a quick question.  I'm meeting with my doc again tomorrow.  I currently have a prescription for 285 ml of Roxanne liquid 1mg/1ml at the pharmacy which is exactly a 30 day supply.  I can only pick up liquid or pills not both and my doc prescribes me exactly 30 days worth of whatever dosage I'm currently with (60 - 2 mg pills and 30 - 5 mg pills) so I have very little reserve since I've been holding.  I also can't pick up the new script until exactly 30 days so there's no real buffer.  Should I ask for an increase of the script to cover me in case something happens? 

 

Also, could you go over one more time working with a compounding pharmacy vs. diluting the liquid myself?  The two methods and what's needed.  I have another person on board with this and we want to present both options tomorrow.  I'm sorry for so many questions.  This is just very nerve-racking and I really want to switch to liquid.

 

Also, instead of making a 10 to 12 day batch, could you just draw it up every day?  Thanks so much and again, apologies.   

[[Ji...]]

Hi Buddy8

 

Starting 23 sep 2018 you take 2 doses of Valium per day: 4 mg and 5 mg. If you just hold then the max benzo quantity required per month would be 31 x (4+5) = 279 mg.

 

I currently have a prescription for 285 ml of Roxanne liquid 1mg/1ml at the pharmacy which is exactly a 30 day supply.

If the doctor prescribes 285 ml of Roxanne liquid 1mg/1ml then it will be sufficient for one month including a small margin for error.

 

I can only pick up liquid or pills not both

Choose liquid.

 

Should I ask for an increase of the script to cover me in case something happens?

You don't need more. At one condition: The quantity from the above calculation supposes we don't discard anything. Leftover from the day before must be reused for today. Over the time and following daily reductions, leftover will increase in the recipient.

 

working with a compounding pharmacy

Ask pharmacist to provide alcohol-dissolved solution 0.1 mg/ml. This means in 1 ml of solution there is 0.1 mg of benzo. Renewal possibly every 10 days or 2 weeks, for one month. Ask for solution in glass recipient to minimize chemical contamination by toxins from plastic bottle.

 

vs. diluting the liquid myself

You can prepare your solution:

- once a day: 9 ml of Roxanne liquid + 81 ml water = 90 ml, 0.1 mg/ml

- or once a week. 7 x 9 ml of Roxanne liquid + 7 x 81 ml water = 7 x 90 ml, 0.1 mg/ml

 

Hope I answered your questions.

 

[[Bu...]]

Hi Buddy8

 

Starting 23 sep 2018 you take 2 doses of Valium per day: 4 mg and 5 mg. If you just hold then the max benzo quantity required per month would be 31 x (4+5) = 279 mg.

 

I currently have a prescription for 285 ml of Roxanne liquid 1mg/1ml at the pharmacy which is exactly a 30 day supply.

If the doctor prescribes 285 ml of Roxanne liquid 1mg/1ml then it will be sufficient for one month including a small margin for error.  - This was actually when I was taking 9.5 mg

 

I can only pick up liquid or pills not both

Choose liquid.

 

Should I ask for an increase of the script to cover me in case something happens?

You don't need more. At one condition: The quantity from the above calculation supposes we don't discard anything. Leftover from the day before must be reused for today. Over the time and following daily reductions, leftover will increase in the recipient.

 

working with a compounding pharmacy

Ask pharmacist to provide alcohol-dissolved solution 0.1 mg/ml. This means in 1 ml of solution there is 0.1 mg of benzo. Renewal possibly every 10 days or 2 weeks, for one month. Ask for solution in glass recipient to minimize chemical contamination by toxins from plastic bottle.  - I will def only be able to get it every 30 days and not sure about the plastic bottle. 

 

vs. diluting the liquid myself

You can prepare your solution:

- once a day: 9 ml of Roxanne liquid + 81 ml water = 90 ml, 0.1 mg/ml  - Then if I'm dividing it up between 4 and 5 mg reducing at .05 it would be 39.5 ml for the first dose and 50 ml for the second dose? and i would keep the rest of the contents? 

 

- or once a week. 7 x 9 ml of Roxanne liquid + 7 x 81 ml water = 7 x 90 ml, 0.1 mg/ml

 

Hope I answered your questions.

 

[[Bu...]]

Also, do I shake the jar after I make the mixture for one day or one week?

[[Bu...]]

The pharmacist across the street is saying I can measure .05 ml with the syringe they special ordered for me and the Roxanne liquid without diluting it.  Is that accurate? 

[[Bu...]]

sorry, the imgur wouldn't give me options in the copy section - https://imgur.com/a/20Q318E

[[Ji...]]

Hi Buddy8

 

The pharmacist across the street is saying I can measure .05 ml with the syringe they special ordered for me and the Roxanne liquid without diluting it.  Is that accurate?

The following is an example of your taper plan based on solution 1 mg/ml

 

When you have to draw up for instance 3.73 ml, this can be thought as 3 ml + 0.70 ml + 0.03 ml. A syringe that can measure down to 0.05 ml will not have enough accuracy for the last 0.03 ml.

 

Besides that, dilution reduces errors. If you make a 0.1 ml error while measuring 3 ml which is quite possible, then it is a 3.33% error.  The same error of 0.1 ml by measuring 0.3 ml will result in a 33.3% error.

 

[[bu...]]

Besides that, dilution reduces errors. If you make a 0.1 ml error while measuring 3 ml which is quite possible, then it is a 3.33% error.  The same error of 0.1 ml by measuring 0.3 ml will result in a 33.3% error.

 

 

:thumbsup:

[[Bu...]]

Got it. Headed to discuss now. Thanks very much.

[[Bu...]]

He will only agree to .1 mg drops using an insulin syringe every two days or until sxs get bad. 

[[Bu...]]

I guess I will try this.  You said it could possibly work, Jim? Without the dilution.

 

 

I would be happier if your doctor asked you, instead of reducing 0.1 mg each 2 days, to reduce 0.05 mg which is half quantity each single day. It would help minimizing the inter-dose withdrawal although Valium is known to have a very long elimination half-life. A small number of buddies in here actually take Valium twice a day to address this inter-dose issue. Your doctor could not do that because that would come to ask you to dilute the liquid Rx as you can't physically draw up 0.05 ml from the undiluted Rx even by using a 1 ml insulin syringe. But in a certain way it could work for you provided your inter-dose withdrawal symptoms, if any, remain manageable.

 

From a reduction quantity viewpoint it is 0.7 mg (0.1 x 7) reduction over 9.5 mg every 14 days. It's a 7.4% reduction every 14 days and it could work too.

 

Hope I answered your question.

[[Bu...]]

What do you think, Jim? 

[[Ji...]]

Hi Buddy8

 

I fear I repeat myself but with whatever syringe you use, you would have trouble to draw up 0.05 ml of solution (1 mg/ml) for your daily dose. Although from a mere dose viewpoint it could work.

 

[[bu...]]

Hi Buddy8

 

I fear I repeat myself but with whatever syringe you use, you would have trouble to draw up 0.05 ml of solution (1 mg/ml) for your daily dose. Although from a mere dose viewpoint it could work.

 

 

:thumbsup: