Detox, please read

[[Ca...]]

Yeah, stability is certainly subjective. You’re all trying to help though.

 

There’s certainly more to my story, as there is with everyone.

I guess compared to my life previous, this is being disabled.

Gym out, martial arts out, coffe out, school online and minimal, volunteer at hospital and soup kitchen out, hiking out, search and rescue out etc.

 

I try for my sake to make it to baseball and a date with my wife, but damn it’s getting hard.

The thing is, I have nothing to compare this to.

I have zero previous knowledge of tolerance or an illness like this.

Normally, if I felt like this, I’d quit, like a job or relationship or drug. But I can’t.

In fact, I would tell a friend or family member to quit, like yesterday.

I know too much now, and feel really trapped. That’s when I get hopeless and or hostile.

Right now I’m both. Chained to a drug that I never wanted and pissed.

Slamming myself against glass prison walls that just throw me to the floor.

 

I want to slow taper but damn I just feel so ill.

The Thailand detox wants to do a liquid daily taper for 7-8 months.

Just. So. Lost

I Hope I didnt give offence to you, I should have removed your quote... sorry..

 

I would be pissed too.. -well I am, have been, and probably will be for a long time yet..

And I know exactly why I am here... -The car won...

What followed was, in hindsight, logical.. (asides how sensitive to meds I am)

 

But For you, where is the logic? Things dont seem to fit the same as they do for many of us here...

I dont have answers for you...

But I will tell you I feel you have the right attitude and resolve to fight your way out of this...

 

As a comparison, I would guess we were rather similar before ALL this. -physical activity and drive...

And when I am on the better side of a cut, Dates, weekends away, Dirt bikes, Farm stuff, Ski boat etc. are all possible, but they do take a toll.. But the motivation isnt there...  I sure was a lot worse, with months/years basicly in bed.. But its not a clear comparison the further we go back as other meds become the dominant factor... As was taper speed...

 

After a cut, well, its back to lounge, missing showers and meals, The odd trip to the shops... FATIGUE and GI cramping... and even less than no motivation...

 

I not sure how lucky I am that aside single parenting, I dont have pressure to perform... It is very easy to just not bother...

 

I am usually rather pro slow SX guided tapering, but I can usualy see a reason that is clear to ME...

-If you can make a small reduction and then slowly return to where you were before it, then its looking good, -no matter how small or how long... Then it becomes a matter of finding your particular speed.. For some it can be quite slow, but they get there...

But if your going to just get worse with each attempt... -Then..??

 

Hope this helped more..??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[ke...]]

I would never dream of going over seas for this kind of medical treatment. Only a fool would trust this.

 

I did mine at Hopkins and they took insurance and gave comprehensive mental health treatment.

[[fi...]]

I know you mean well, and I've read many of your posts which got me thinking of inpatient, but don't mention fool.

You hated the negativity yourself, don't spread it on my thread. I asked for collective responses, which I received and should have expected a few of these type of remarks. I am considering John Hopkins as well, they are at the top. I'm no fool. Quite the opposite. I respect you on this forum, thought if you could do it, maybe so could I. So, let's keep it about respect and helping each other. I, personally, would love to hear more about your time at John Hopkins. Would love a detailed response, or even a PM if you're willing?

 

[[...]]

I know you mean well, and I've read many of your posts which got me thinking of inpatient, but don't mention fool.

You hated the negativity yourself, don't spread it on my thread. I asked for collective responses, which I received and should have expected a few of these type of remarks. I am considering John Hopkins as well, they are at the top. I'm no fool. Quite the opposite. I respect you on this forum, thought if you could do it, maybe so could I. So, let's keep it about respect and helping each other. I, personally, would love to hear more about your time at John Hopkins. Would love a detailed response, or even a PM if you're willing?

 

HI Fishy... I'm so sorry you're suffering so much from these meds..I thought I would tell you my story , in brief, as there are some parallels , but not as extreme as you.

I was also put on steroids and they made me extremely sick . I was on them 9 months on high doses due to a misdiagnosis of addisons disease. I thought I w as going to die honestly . I was in the ER 4 times.... and was given ativan ,a nd xanax.

 

I got myself off the steroids as they had become such poison to me... I was sick every time I took even the smallest dose. I finally got myself off them in a short time and the withdrawals were terrible.

meanwhile I didn;t realize my body had become dependent on benzos , even though I took them intermitently.

 

Anyway... long story short... I crossed from Klonopin to valium in order to taper. Valium was ok for me for almost a year , though very hard to taper, and then I started having a bad reaction to it , I felt ill every dose, even the smallest amount I would crash and could barely get out of bed. plus I couldn't taper it ... even the tiniest cut made me even more sick.

My doc said cross back to klonopin. THis was horrible, I went through awful Valium withdrawals for several months.

But , in the end it was a good decision.

I am still pretty sick , but I am more stable than I was on the valium. I am now managing barely 1% microtaper a month , but I am tapering at least . And I able to do a few things from home that I couldn't do before , creative projects and things like that .

I have plenty of symptoms  , but it doesn;t feel impossible the way the valium ended up feeling for me.

 

Have you had your genetics tested for how you metabolize drugs? I turned out to be a rapid metabolizer of valium ... I don;t know if that's the reason it was so hard for me . Klonopin has a much simpler metabolic pathway , it uses the liver enzyme NAT2. Valium is a very complex drug and uses a lot of different pathways., breaking down in to all kinds of active metabolites.

 

I don't know if any of this is helpful for you , but I guess what I'm saying, bottom line is - could you get your genetics tested  for drug metabolism , and see which of the benzos might be best for you , and  then see if  a knowledgeable doctor could help you make  a switch  if one of them were a better 'fit' , if one dare to even say that about a benzo.

 

ONe other suggestion- have you looked in to NAD therapy? Some people have had success with that . It doesn;t stop withdrawals for  everyone, and for some people they still go through  severe wds from what I've heard , but it does help your body heal . And the reports that are out there( not too many unfortunately ) do seem to indicate that NAD can speed up healing . It's also called brain restoration therapy

 

The original clinic in the US is in Louisiana, and people that have researched it seem to think this is the best place for NAD IV therapy.

https://www.springfieldwellnesscenter.com/

 

I thought this place looked interesting too , it's pricey but not 70K

https://www.theholisticsanctuary.com/treatment/nad-iv

 

With the NAD they take you off  and give you NAD for 10 days or more , 8 hours a day. The cost is around $15,000.

 

Just some thoughts for you , given you are in such a difficult place. and as someone else commented, you are not on that high of a dose , it could be rough coming off , but perhaps for you it's worth considering the NAD or a switch in benzo?

 

I wish you all the best .  YOu will find a way out of this , keep looking.... our bodies have an amzing capacity to heal..

 

Sorry for all the typos, I can't see my keyboard at night!

 

MiYu

 

 

 

 

 

[[fi...]]

Hi MiYu,

 

Thanks for reaching out to me.

I'm not going to lie, I have followed your posts very closely due to the steroids issue.

I actually used your case and mine and convinced a whole panel of Dr's of the dangers,

which is crazy because all it takes is one google search. It's like benzos, they claim to be

in the dark on it, but I really do wonder if it's ignorance, or blind negligence.

Steroid psychosis is very real, as are steroid HPTA/CNS issues from addison treatments.

 

My body HATES valium. Every dose I'm sick, sweat, shake, and I faint now, which I never did before.

Dry mouth, dry eyes, cyclical nausea,zero energy, major low mood.

Fainted on the baseball field a week ago, and at my haircut today. So embarrassing.

I'm in talks with The Holistic Sanctuary, Alternative to Meds, John Hopkins, the Cabin Chiang Mai, and Lanna Rehab Chiang Mai so far. My family has put their foot down. I have to go somewhere within the next month, which is terrifying. They don't care for how long, they just want me off. Yikes

 

[[Gr...]]

Miyu has a really good point.  Maybe crossing over to Klonopin would really help you.  7.5 mg of valium would be .375mg of Klonopin, I believe.  Not as easy to make small cuts, you would probably want to do a liquid titration, but if the valium is making you that sick, this might help.

[[...]]

Hi MiYu,

 

Thanks for reaching out to me.

I'm not going to lie, I have followed your posts very closely due to the steroids issue.

I actually used your case and mine and convinced a whole panel of Dr's of the dangers,

which is crazy because all it takes is one google search. It's like benzos, they claim to be

in the dark on it, but I really do wonder if it's ignorance, or blind negligence.

Steroid psychosis is very real, as are steroid HPTA/CNS issues from addison treatments.

 

My body HATES valium. Every dose I'm sick, sweat, shake, and I faint now, which I never did before.

Dry mouth, dry eyes, cyclical nausea,zero energy, major low mood.

Fainted on the baseball field a week ago, and at my haircut today. So embarrassing.

I'm in talks with The Holistic Sanctuary, Alternative to Meds, John Hopkins, the Cabin Chiang Mai, and Lanna Rehab Chiang Mai so far. My family has put their foot down. I have to go somewhere within the next month, which is terrifying. They don't care for how long, they just want me off. Yikes

 

i don't mind you following my posts at all fishy...

I'm glad you a re considering your options, I know it's terrifying , but you will make it . It might be good to be in the hands of some professionals . Most of us don;t choose rapid detox because , well we know why, but i believe you would be safe, as long as you can prepare as much as you can emotionally , and have a support system at home who would understand what you a re going through. They need to be educated for your sake.

THere are some online sites I think that offer support to friends and family, Baylissa fredericks for one, and there is another one that I can't remember the name of.

 

you'll survive this , just keep telling yourself that ..... you will....

it's horrible I know , but the prognosis is very good for us for healing.

 

please keep in touch and use the forum here for support too.

MiYu

 

 

 

[[fi...]]

Well I have until August 1st to make a decision.

Terrified and very ill.

My family was around me at my wedding anniversary vacation last week and was horrified.

They could not believe the state I was in, and I didn’t hold back honestly. I tried at first.

Puking, BP spikes, sweating, fainted, crying. We all sat down and the gavel was struck.

I don’t know how I’ll ever come back from this. So damn ill and stay in bed all day.

Right now it’s Kenn Starr or Dr. Milgrim NAD+ center, John Hopkins, or Thailand.

Alternative to meds from Arizona was an option but they don’t return calls or emails and just heard from someone who went there, nice place, but ripped him off 6 mg of k and lost it and $60k.

Any magical thoughts buddies?

 

[[...]]

Well I have until August 1st to make a decision.

Terrified and very ill.

My family was around me at my wedding anniversary vacation last week and was horrified.

They could not believe the state I was in, and I didn’t hold back honestly. I tried at first.

Puking, BP spikes, sweating, fainted, crying. We all sat down and the gavel was struck.

I don’t know how I’ll ever come back from this. So damn ill and stay in bed all day.

Right now it’s Kenn Starr or Dr. Milgrim NAD+ center, John Hopkins, or Thailand.

Alternative to meds from Arizona was an option but they don’t return calls or emails and just heard from someone who went there, nice place, but ripped him off 6 mg of k and lost it and $60k.

 

 

Any magical thoughts buddies?

 

HI Fishy, I wish I knew what the best choice would be for you , I'm so sorry , It sounds so dreadful. Did you not have this reaction to the Ativan?

At any rate, it does sound like you need off the valium asap, whichever place you choose. I don;t know much about the johns hopkins option, I would be a bi t nervous to say the least about travelling to thailand in the state you are in.

NAd is a good option in my opionion, but I don't believe it will be a magic bullet and save you from withdrawals. I don't know that you could be any worse off than you are now though.

there are some people her on BB who did that , and feel it shortened their recovery considerably.

There is another person who had a pretty rough time coming off valium after doing it too , but he was on a higher dose than you and had been tapering quite rapidly,

 

Is it possible that some of your symptoms are actually withdrawals?

 

just please keep remembering , you WILL heal from this. MAny people have been through nightmare wds with these drugs and have healed . It never feels like we will, but we do.

YOu sound like you are quite young still, you'll be ok . I hope you have some good support and that your wife is understanding.

 

You also seem to have your mental faculties working ,which is good.

 

 

Keep us posted on your decision, is anyone else helping you decide what would be the best choice? Will someone go with you ?

YOu will need some one there for you ,

 

I wish you all the best , you can do this .

MiYu

 

 

 

 

[[fi...]]

Thanks for the feedback.

Couldn’t tell you what this is. I’m assuming tolerance or withdrawals.

Friends on reddit say to updose then taper. Went up to 8mg and it did not help and actually felt worse. I have family who will fly out with me wherever I go but won’t stay obviously.

At the time Ativan was strong and worked but quickly wore off and interdose occurred.

Valium upon switch has been and stayed sedating and made me ill and super depressed about 2 months on it until now. So it’s been a lose lose situation. When I look back to last year I think to myself wow I was in a bad spot then yet I was much more productive than now and now I’m in worse of a spot. Will there even be a next year? My family doesn’t think so if I stay on.

So my gut says to get off but how I’m not sure.

I haven’t a clue other than get off before it kills me. Was actually told that I needed to get before it killed me by a Dr. not too long ago.

Goes back to how? How can I long taper this ill?

Two days ago I thought NAD was the answer, looked up previous buddies who did it.

Now I’m not sure.

But I know that inaction will lead to my demise.

That I am sure of.

[[ma...]]

you don't want detox center.... then they control your taper and it might not be right for you. Plus they are used to detoxing addicts and your problem is benzo's..different.  just my opinion and I'm new here... Somebody suggested a vacation ... do that .. do the taper yourself .. buy a small rebounder and bounce or jump .. just bouncing moves the lymph system and helps.  a week or two makes all the difference once you are on the right med to get stable.  For me it has been the valium.  and  you need people around you. 

[[ea...]]

Most detox centers havent a clue what benzo withdrawal can mean. I am an RN of many years and worked ON a detox unit for quite a while. Benzo withdrawal was treated exactly like narcotic or alcohol withdrawal: COLD TURKEY with meds to treat symptoms like a beta blocker for a high blood pressure. Tapers were UNHEARD of.

 

When I was forced to go CT I was also forced to enter a detox unit. They hadnt a clue what I might be going through and not a single person ever even asked me how I was feeling! I had to BEG to be given Clonidine for a dangerously high blood pressure. I was treated like "AN ADDICT" and dismissed as "low life trash." Well, I am none of those things. I am a woman who unfortunately used and abused benzos for many years, because of long standing problems with insomnia. (History of childhood abuse-). I never took benzos to get high...only to sleep. And I slowly became badly addicted. I think I thought I was somehow immune, because I AM a professional nurse! LOL! I am no different from anyone else in this.

 

The only good thing about detox units is that staff IS there to observe - and if you started having seizures, they would send you off to the ER for treatment. But know this - ER's in the USA are no better at understanding benzo withdrawal. They may save your life, but your withdrawal will NOT be helped a bit.

 

Please carefully consider your options and do what you think will help you the best.

east

[[fi...]]

Thanks for the reply(s).

 

I am fully aware of the dangers that detox centers present. I do appreciate all of you looking out for me though.

You all are the most lifelines I have had since starting this ordeal 18 months ago.

 

I would not be going to a traditional detox.

I also have little choice but to go. Family put down the gavel.

 

Nothing I do would be fast, unless it's John Hopkins.

 

 

 

[[ea...]]

Hmmm. a fast detox will never be a good thing. Or safe. I dont know how Johns Hopkins handles benzo wd, but I doubt it is any better than other detox places.

If you are being pushed into this (like I was) you need to consider the philosophy of the center. Try to get a feel of how teach place sees benzo withdrawal, and figure out which place might help you in more ways than others. My own experience with detox places is quite negative. But nor are they current. I detoxed 6 years ago. Maybe things are better now...? I sort of doubt that.

east

[[Wi...]]

If it were me taking 7,5 mg of valium for five months and experiencing the symptoms you are i would taper for a month then stop. You are doing 1.5 yellow valiums per day which is a relatively low dose yet you are experiencing horrendous effects. It makes me believe something else may be going on and you are possibly allergic to benzos. Your wd symptoms mimic those of someone ct-ing a high dose long term benzo hence me recommending a months taper to see where you are at after that. If i were you i would cease the valium all together for one day just to see how you react. It literally seems like it is the valium that is effecting you so badly vs. the wd itself. U arent alone. Good luck

[[ea...]]

Windwalker, I seriously doubt he is allergic to benzos. No one can know how benzos are going to affect someone. NO ONE. Seems that each person reacts differently to these drugs - and others. I honestly think Fishy needs to focus on being in withdrawal and not started worrying about being "allergic" to benzos. You are not a physician, nor am I. I go by what I know about benzos - which is a lot but NOR do I know everything!

 

I have been active on this site for many years now. I have seen all sorts of people come here to find help. It seems many of us share certain symptoms of withdrawal, but there are always going to be exceptions!!! Always. The human body is complicated, and most of us share most chemical reactions and physiology. But ow a particular drug is going to affect you - or someone else- may differ a lot.

 

Fishy - what have you decided to do? Do you still plan to go to a detox? If this is being forced onto you, make the best of it. No matter what! There could be some detox places that have a better idea of benzo withdrawal and I hope you find such a place. I understand being forced into this...I was, too.

 

Please keep me informed. I am concerned about you.

east

[[fi...]]

Hey all,

 

Nice to have such support. I definitely need it right now.

 

I don't know if I'm allergic or not, but I know my body, mind, and soul are NOT happy.

Slow, sluggish, BP spikes, throwing up daily, cog fog, sleep like 12-13 hours and still dead tired, depressed from all of the physical crap.

I notice that eating sugar at night really makes the next day sluggish and hell.

With the remeron though, it coaxes one out of sleep to eat.

I'm just fed up honestly. I know many have walked this walk before me, but I'm over it, and have been over it since month 1, now it's month 18.

 

Yes, I'm going off somewhere to get off the meds. It's not so much a forcing, but a loving you gotta go type of deal.

Yes, I'm an adult, but I think they are right.

One place wants to work with me on the taper, the other is 4 months, the other is 3 weeks.

My histamine is going nuts, and as an asthmatic it's brutal. Almost the worst symptom.

Taking claritin helps minimally.

Trying some anti histamine probiotics. Quercitin too.

 

 

[[Gr...]]

Can you just go and stay with an understanding relative or friend?  I am really curious as to what you end up doing and how that works out.  I also doubt that you are allergic to benzos.  I think you are suffering because of the previous cuts you made as well as the cross over from ativan.   

[[Wi...]]

Its irrelavant how long youve been on this site ec given MOST people kick benzos without getting on this site because they dont have near the difficulty that people on this site have so they have no need to get on this site. Ive known several people who have kicked benzos without near the problem of the people on this site. Maybe you didnt read all of Fishs posts.  He said “my body hates valium” and “every dose i take i get sick.” Then he states: “it feels like poison to me-like my body is rejecting it.”-then he says: “ive felt for a long time i ve had a paradoxical effect.” He continues after he began his  valium taper:“the valium made me ill” even “up dosing to 8 mg made me feel worse”-So even he thinks he is having a paradoxical effect that updosing doesnt help but rather is actually making worse. Ive NEVER heard of someone who updosed and then actually felt worse. Have you?  I have just as much “experience” with benzos as you do-probably more so- as you so proficiently point out. 45 years with every benzo out there. You? But this isnt a contest. Im simply trying to help the guy and i stand by my original post. I know a girl who easily kicked a ten year 30 mg valium habit with a 60 day rehab stay and she came out feeling great with no ill effects. People on this site are people having serious problems kicking. Theres thousands more who dont have near the problem as we do and hopefully fish is one of them.  No need to attack me simply because you disagree.

[[Ca...]]

Windwalker, I seriously doubt he is allergic to benzos. No one can know how benzos are going to affect someone. NO ONE. Seems that each person reacts differently to these drugs - and others. I honestly think Fishy needs to focus on being in withdrawal and not started worrying about being "allergic" to benzos. You are not a physician, nor am I. I go by what I know about benzos - which is a lot but NOR do I know everything!

 

I have been active on this site for many years now. I have seen all sorts of people come here to find help. It seems many of us share certain symptoms of withdrawal, but there are always going to be exceptions!!! Always. The human body is complicated, and most of us share most chemical reactions and physiology. But ow a particular drug is going to affect you - or someone else- may differ a lot.

 

Fishy - what have you decided to do? Do you still plan to go to a detox? If this is being forced onto you, make the best of it. No matter what! There could be some detox places that have a better idea of benzo withdrawal and I hope you find such a place. I understand being forced into this...I was, too.

 

Please keep me informed. I am concerned about you.

east

It might Help if you read Fishes previous posting history prior to this thread..

-Well, it did for me..

Sadly, due to Drs lack of medical awareness of BWS and related conditions/reactions, Much time has passed for Fishy..

 

Gods speed in getting off safe Fishy.. However you decide...

 

[[Gr...]]

Yeah I actually thought he was having more a problem with the valium, which is not uncommon.  I was thinking crossing over to klonopin or just back to ativan would be better for him. 

[[Ca...]]

As we've seen, here and elsewhere, each individual is unique. I did a rapid detox - 30 days. That was 2 years ago. Still a freaking nightmare - depression, anxiety, intrusive thoughts, burning sensation in the head, limited sleep, hypersensitivity to stress etc. But the disclaimer should always be: But that's just in my particular case. I cannot say how things would have turned out, had I taken a different route. Advise: Avoid stress like the plague!

[[Wi...]]

As we've seen, here and elsewhere, each individual is unique. I did a rapid detox - 30 days. That was 2 years ago. Still a freaking nightmare - depression, anxiety, intrusive thoughts, burning sensation in the head, limited sleep, hypersensitivity to stress etc. But the disclaimer should always be: But that's just in my particular case. I cannot say how things would have turned out, had I taken a different route. Advise: Avoid stress like the plague!

 

 

Wow catto

We have a similar timeline and usage. Im not healed but im much much better then i was. Thats not a statement of how great i feel now, rather its a statement how bad it was before. You must be feeling a bit better catto. Right? Go thru your timeline and see if it isnt true. I needed to reply because of our similarities. Good luck!

[[Lo...]]

I would tend to go with a conservative assessment, that he might be struggling because he is below 10mg Valium. I think a number of people start really "feeling it" once they are below 10mg of Valium. My advice would be just to hold the current dose. A number of people feel worse when they get to lower doses, and it is important to remember.

[[Lo...]]

Can you just go and stay with an understanding relative or friend?  I am really curious as to what you end up doing and how that works out.  I also doubt that you are allergic to benzos.  I think you are suffering because of the previous cuts you made as well as the cross over from ativan. 

 

I tend to agree with this, as well.