Large batch made with OraPlus

[[pe...]]

All right then, we have a starting point once all of my supplies are in - they have been ordered.  Lord, I never in my life felt like a junkie  , but......this?  Well, it's kind of funny.  Perhaps I should watch Breaking Bad - lol.

 

So, if I ever stabilize on 1 mg in 6 daily doses, what kind of cuts can I make.

 

FYI:  20 mg Valium daily for 5 years was my regular dose.  Due to various misunderstandings  between my doctor, the pharmacy and myself, I eventually found myself on 1 mg Valium per day divided into 6 doses.

 

Yes, an extremely idiotic and rapid taper, but day 14 and I am hanging in.  The whole withdrawal actually started on December 7th/2017.

My doctor had put me on 1MG Ativan 3x per day instead of Valium.  I felt awful and she quickly bumped me to 2MG Ativan 3x per day.

Still felt horrendous.  Put me back on Valium, thinking I had been on 10 mg per day (when actually was 20 mg per day).  I didn't notice, because my brain was essentially fried.  I guess I started having withdrawal symptoms, but I thought it was a paradoxical reaction.  So, I decided, in my infinite wisdom (NOT!) to get off and do it fast!!

 

So, I chose 1MG Valium (6 doses daily divided) as my starting point.  Needless to say, it's been a nightmare.  However, having survived this 14 days of pure unadulterated hell I do not want to increase my dose.  Symptoms still present, but definitely diminishing in intensity.  So that must be a good thing?

 

Point is (sorry for rambling) once I stabilize, what would my taper look like?

I would like to go real slow.  I do not want to enter the twilight zone again.

Any suggestions?  And thank you so very much - you are truly a life saver.

So you were taking 20 mg of Valium per day on December 7 and you are now at 1 mg per day and have been for 14 days? Wow that is quite a ride! You should probably hold until you feel comfortable which might be a just a few days or a few weeks. After that you may want to switch to a daily micro-taper. I was on 1 mg/day on November 6 and have been tapering 1/300 mg per day. I am now at 0.8 mg. If I can hold to that schedule I will be at 0.5 mg on April 8th (that 1/300 mg is an every increasing percentage of my daily dose). At that point I might discontinue (jump off) but for now it is one day at a time. Given what you have gone through in the last month, it sounds like you may be able to taper more quickly. Good luck with your taper!

[[bu...]]

 

@builder, thank you for your input.  I agree that two doses would make my crappy (temporarily) life better, but if I take too large a dose at once, my heart will literally jump out of it's well-endowed chest!!!!  The pounding is insane!  So, that I have figured out.

 

 

 

Because of the cumulative character of diazepam mentioned by Bella, it's unlikely you would note any effect of switching to 2 "large" doses.*  I jumped at .5mg and had zero problems.

 

Based on an average half-life of just 100 hours, if you took a dose at 8 AM, you blood concentration will still be at 96% 4 hours later, and even 88% 12 hours later.

 

* 1mg really isn't even a therapeutic dose.

 

 

[[Mi...]]

Unlikely indeed.  But not impossible.  Right now, I am scared to death to change anything.  As it is, I feel like I am walking a tightrope blindfolded.

 

Having said that, I do agree with your logic.  I will wait a bit, until I feel brave enough.

 

At the moment things are just too precarious and I don’t want to upset the barely balanced apple cart.

[[Be...]]

Well.  Symptoms.  Trembling hands, jelly legs, insomnia, pounding heart, rapid heart beat, high blood pressure, splitting headache, lack of appetite, sometimes a little (or a LOT) speedy - like I suppose one took methamphetamine which I never have, but can imagine and have seen on tv.  Silly rambling sentences - like this one.  talking too fast.  Feel like I drank 20 cups of double espresso black, but body feels like it's been run over by a mack truck and doesn't want to do anything.

 

Also embarrassing things: alternating diarrhea and constipation.  Mood swings.  Feel hot and sweaty then freezing cold regardless of room temperature or activity level.  STILL....can't go out to even do groceries - overstimulates my senses.  Too loud, too bright, too many things on the shelves......ugh!

 

Excruciating back pain caused by complete muscle freeze or tension or whatever.  That, however, is my guideline.  When back pain is improving, as it is now, I know I am on the right track - choo!choo!

 

@builder, thank you for your input.  I agree that two doses would make my crappy (temporarily) life better, but if I take too large a dose at once, my heart will literally jump out of it's well-endowed chest!!!!  The pounding is insane!  So, that I have figured out.

 

So, I know I sound like a basket case, but really, I am not.  My brain is working fine, sense of humour intact and generally very happy to be alive  !

 

Yes, I have read that the metabolites of Valium can stay in the body for a very long time indeed.  Can still be detected in hair follicles 90 days after last dose, although will no longer be present in urine or blood.

 

I'm assuming that the rapid taper 20mg to 1mg will just require a longer adjustment period.  Kind of makes sense, you think?

 

Also I looked at the taper that is in this thread, and I reckon I could copy it, diving in at 1mg/day.  Then .8 for x amount of days.  Then maybe .7 for x amount of days.  Or maybe, I should go from 1mg to .9 instead of .8 - how many ml would I draw out at those rates?

 

You advised 1.66ml - 6 times a day as starting dose.  This makes perfects sense.  But my math skills are not superb, so I would have a hard time figuring out how many ml in .9mg, .8mg, .7mg etc.

 

But, I bet YOU know, lol.  I sure don't  .  Would you like to take a stab at it?  Would appreciate it very much.

 

I'm assuming that the rapid taper 20mg to 1mg will just require a longer adjustment period.  Kind of makes sense, you think?

 

Also I looked at the taper that is in this thread, and I reckon I could copy it, diving in at 1mg/day.  Then .8 for x amount of days.  Then maybe .7 for x amount of days.  Or maybe, I should go from 1mg to .9 instead of .8 - how many ml would I draw out at those rates?

 

You advised 1.66ml - 6 times a day as starting dose.  This makes perfects sense.  But my math skills are not superb, so I would have a hard time figuring out how many ml in .9mg, .8mg, .7mg etc.

 

Lordy girl....you been through a lot....

 

How does a 5% reduction every 15 days doing daily Micro taper reductions sound to you? There really is no advantage to 6 doses due to the long half life of Valium. I would do 2 or 3 tops. Just me tho...how many doses per day do you want in the detailed schedule? ok I just saw apple cart post I will go start detailed schedule unless you change your mind...

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

Lordy girl....you been through a lot....

 

How does a 5% reduction every 15 days doing daily Micro taper reductions sound to you? There really is no advantage to 6 doses due to the long half life of Valium. I would do 2 or 3 tops. Just me tho...how many doses per day do you want in the detailed schedule? ok I just saw apple cart post I will go start detailed schedule unless you change your mind...

 

:thumbsup:

[[Mi...]]

@[ B...]

 

How about 4 doses, but only if you haven’t started yet, or I will be guilt-wracked if you toss your time and work.

 

You are truly a kind and caring, generous soul!  What a wonder you are.  Re-affirms my faith in humanity

[[Be...]]

vous êtes le bienvenu MissD!

 

Here is a plan customized just for you for 2 weeks. Hopefully you can see the pattern & do the calculations for the rest of your taper. If not, just give a shout out & we can help you get it figured out. 

 

Formula:

 

1) Put 5- 2mg tablets in a small vial with10ml of ethanol

2) Put 50ml of Ora-plus+ 40ml of water in a 100ml graduating cylinder shake vigorously

3) Add the solvent solution to the Ora-plus suspension once tablets are dissolved. Shake vigorously

 

10ml=1mg

 

1mg/4x = .25mg  4x a day

 

Start dose= 1mg;  5% of 1mg=.05mg; .05mg/14days=.0035mg; roundedup .0035mg=.004mg =TOTAL Daily Reduction

 

Draw out 2.5ml 4x a day (10ml). This will be your starting dose.Then follow the chart.

 

  Cut % is rounded up              1x                        4x                  Total Daily

                      Cut                    Dose                    Dose                Reduction

Day#        5% (.05)                                 

Start          .004                    2.50ml                10.00ml                    0

1)                                          2.49ml                9.96ml                .004mg

2)                                          2.48ml                9.92ml                .008mg

3)                                          2.47ml                  9.88ml                .012mg

4)                                          2.46ml                  9.84ml                .016mg

5)                                          2.45ml                  9.80ml                .020mg

6)                                          2.44ml                  9.76ml                .024mg

7)                                          2.43ml                  9.72ml                .028mg

8}                                          2.42ml                  9.68ml                .032mg

9)                                          2.41ml                  9.64ml                .036mg

10)                                          2.40ml                  9.60ml                .040mg

11)                                          2.39ml                  9.56ml                .044mg

12)                                          2.38ml                  9.52ml                .048mg

13)                                          2.37ml                  9.48ml                .052mg

14)                                          2.36ml                  9.44ml                .056mg

 

 

[[Mi...]]

You are wonderful!  Magnificent!

I truly cannot thank you enough.  I have no way to express my gratitude to you, apart from words.  But I fear that my words are insufficient, not eloquent enough.  They will, however, have to do.

 

Thank you mystery guardian angel, for making such an enormous effort to better a total strangers’ life.  An act of selfless kindness!  How inspiring and how deeply grateful I am to you.

 

Your kind act will be paid forward, I assure you.

 

I would like to keep in touch, from time to time, if that suits you.  If only to let you know how  I am doing.

 

 

[[Be...]]

Awe... MissD... 

 

By all means pop in & keep us up to date with your progress.

 

Looking forward to reading your success story...

 

Why yes, please pay it forward... this is what we all do!

 

Wishing you a smooth taper & speedy recovery!

 

[[Mi...]]

Hey yo!!, Bella Amis and @Peter2017,

 

I have uno problemo!  Since my taper plan calls for start rate 1 mg V divided in 4 daily doses, today, I decided to do dry cut, in 4 doses.  So, 0.25 mg dry 4 times daily.  Well, the problem is, 0.25 is too large a dose for me at one time. I tried 2 times this way and just got THE worst banging, pounding heart, it was also irregular.  Additionally, a headache to end all and my appetite just disappeared for most of the day.  I have just returned from my wonderful doctor and she advised me to....ugh....sorry, but ask you....please to make up another plan.  Okay I said it. I know I’m silly, but right now I’m embarrassed and feel awful asking for help again.  But I don’t know where else to turn :'(.

 

Peter2017 is doing a Valium micro taper as well. I thought I could copy his, and not have to bother you, but that won’t work because I need to divide my 1 mg daily over 6 doses.  Peter doesn’t do 6 doses. Also, if you read his plan, you will see what his cuts are, don’t quote me, but, I think 1/300??

 

Also, when reading what we talked about he mentioned that as the dose got smaller, he was wondering if he would be able to maintain that cut rate.  I guess moving to lower doses, the percent cut should be smaller? Pretty sure I got that right!

 

So, what do you think? Any thoughts, opinions, suggestions?  I really hope that I am not imposing on your good will, but, I just can’t tolerate taking 0.25 mg at once. I lost so much weight during the first month and weigh only a scary 101 lbs.  maybe that’s why it hits me so hard??

 

I just don’t know.  Builder didn’t seem to think even 2 divided doses (.50 x 2) daily should pose a hardship, but I can’t even manage 0.25 x 4.  So, my only option is to stay at 6 doses.  So sorry 

It’s not a rush tho .  I sort of think I could start on Monday.  Also, Peter thought it would make my life easier if I got a bottle stopper and some kind of syringe that would measure very accurate amounts. But, I forget what size syringe and what the increments should be.

Oh wow.  I really am sorry. I feel like this liquid process is so complicated, but I know it’s not. I just can’t seem to think straight. 

Do you think you might have some time to help out a BB? The BB being me, MissD? See? That rhymes!  Can’t do math but can do silly rhymes. Not very useful.

Well, mull this ridiculous post over and see what you think. 

[[bu...]]

There are 2 kinds of 1ml syringes.  Some have 50 graduations, and can measure .02ml (2/100ths of a ml).  Some have 100 graduations, and can measure .01ml (1/100th of a ml).

 

If you are using a .1mg=1ml solution, that translates to .002 (2/1thousandths) of a mg, or .001 ( 1/1thousandth) of a mg.

[[pe...]]

I just saw you post.

 

If you are more comfortable with dividing your daily dose into 6 parts that is fine. Don't worry about it.

 

I recommend staying at 1 mg divided into six parts for another week at least while we get things sorted out with the liquid.  Are you using 2 mg tablets? Please tell me exactly how you are currently taking 1 mg a day in 6 divided doses. Please be as detailed as possible.

 

I will check back tomorrow morning and give you more feedback.

 

Also check with your pharmacy and see if you can get 1 ml oral syringes with 100 graduations, a compatible medicine bottle,  and a bottle stopper.

[[bu...]]

"Also, when reading what we talked about he mentioned that as the dose got smaller, he was wondering if he would be able to maintain that cut rate.  I guess moving to lower doses, the percent cut should be smaller? Pretty sure I got that right!"

 

You can probably say at the same percent cut.  As your dose gets smaller, a constant percent means your actual cuts get smaller.

 

And since a DMLT will not slam you with sxs like a C&H,  you can probably stay at the same cut rate unless you feel sxs emerging.  Then you can take corrective action, like lowering your cut rate.

[[Mi...]]

I just saw you post.

 

If you are more comfortable with dividing your daily dose into 6 parts that is fine. Don't worry about it.

 

I recommend staying at 1 mg divided into six parts for another week at least while we get things sorted out with the liquid.  Are you using 2 mg tablets? Please tell me exactly how you are currently taking 1 mg a day in 6 divided doses. Please be as detailed as possible.

 

I will check back tomorrow morning and give you more feedback.

 

Also check with your pharmacy and see if you can get 1 ml oral syringes with 100 graduations, a compatible medicine bottle,  and a bottle stopper.

 

 

 

Thanks so very very much!

Info:

 

I have 2 mg tablets, supply is fine.

 

I split a 2 mg tablet in half.  That covers a 2 day course of 1 mg per day.

I cut the 1 mg (1/2 of 2 mg tab) into 6 pieces.  Those 6 pcs. Are taken during one day. So, 1/6th of 1mg, 6 times daily. 

 

Will get syringe and compatible bottle shortly.

 

I am good to stay @ current dose of 1mg, until liquids are sorted out, no worries there!!!

 

Thank you from the bottom of my pounding, racing heart!  I really am deeply appreciative for your help.  I am well aware of the time and effort required in drawing up a plan. I’m sure it is an investment of your personal time.  I have only gratitude!!! 

 

[[pe...]]

Thank you for the detailed info. When you go to the pharmacy ask for 3 medicine bottles with 3 bottle stoppers to fit the bottles and the syringe. One of the things I did was to practice measurements using a medicine bottle containing just water. That helped me get practice without the pressure of doing the draw to take my dose. It took my a while to get the hang of how far to push the syringe into the bottle stopper and how to get rig of air bubble after inverting the bottle. It really isn't hard but practice makes perfect.

 

Have you received the OraPlus?

 

[[pe...]]

Here is a link to your taper plan adjusted to reflect six divide doses. Note that the 6th divided dose of the day is very slightly different from the first five so that the total dose for the day matches Bella's schedule exactly.

 

Please let me know if you are able to open and view this link. It might open in a separate window.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aPoUTHk4hoXI4bth003Y8LeM50vJ7U7_/view?usp=sharing

 

Once you get the syringe, etc. we can discuss how to practice. In the meantime I suggest you continue with your usual dry method.

[[Mi...]]

Amazing.  Thank you very very much Peter!

 

The file is perfect.  Nice clear instructions.  Definately can follow. You are so kind!

Will stay on current dose until I have rounded up syringe and bottle.

Then will contact you for practise lessons 

[[Mi...]]

OralPlus just received.  Have 5 syringes for now, but will get more.

No bottle stopper . Working on it.

 

Could I just not draw up the amount without bottle stopper?  Just wondering.  I will see if I can with water.

[[Mi...]]

I just tried with water and did not have any problems.

The final medicated liquid made with OraPlus might have a higher viscosity.

Don’t know if that will make an appreciable difference, tho.

 

I think I can get several uses from one syringe. Is that your experience?

[[bu...]]

I just tried with water and did not have any problems.

The final medicated liquid made with OraPlus might have a higher viscosity.

Don’t know if that will make an appreciable difference, tho.

It will.

 

I think I can get several uses from one syringe. Is that your experience?

I used the same syringes for 2 years.

[[Mi...]]

LOLLL !

[[pe...]]

The purpose of the bottle stopper is to allow you to get rid of air bubbles in the syringe and to make sure that the tip of the syringe is properly filled. Without it the dose may be significantly less than the intended dose. Also the bottle stopper must be compatible with the bottle and the syringe. I think that many people who have problems with switching to liquid have problems becuase they are not getting the correct dose.

 

Is your syringe 1 ml with 100 graduations?

 

 

[[Mi...]]

Right, I see where you are going with the air bubble problem.

All right, I will have to dig a little harder, but I want to get this right.

3 bottles and 3 stoppers. I’ll take a syringe with me to make sure it fits.

I wanted to ask you: does the liquid need refrigeration or protection from light?

You are a true life-saver. Thank you so very much!

[[pe...]]

If your medicine bottles are amber that should give light protection. I generally store my solution in a medicine chest. I wouldn't refrigerate your solution since it would probably become more viscous. Viscosity makes it more difficult to completely empty the syringe.

 

Are the syringes 1 ml capacity?

 

You need 1 ml syringes. The markings on some syringes wear off with use and need to be replaced frequently. Also some have a little rubber gasket at the end of the plunger which gets misshappen after a while making harder to "read" the dose. Those need to be replaced when that happens. They are designed for single use in a medical office setting but you can reuse them as long as the markings don't wear off and the gasket is okay. I wash mine out regularly.

 

I ml syringes have 10 numbers .1  .2  .3  .4  .5  .6  .7  .8  .9 1.0 (or 0.1  0.2  0.3  0.4  0.5  0.6  0.7  0.8  0.9  1.0) on the side and are a little thinner than an average pencil. Most have 4 little marks between the longer marks next to the numbers. If so then the marks are in increments of 0.02 ml. Builder indicated that there are some that have 100 graduations. I have not seen those but I am sure he is correct. Those would have 9 little marks between the longer marks next to the numbers. Either of these will work. Some have only the long marks next to the numbers with no little marks. Those will not work for you.

 

Your pharmacy should have bottle stoppers and matching amber medicine bottles.

 

The bottles should be at least 100 ml since you will be preparing 100ml batches of solution.

 

Although it is possble to remove a bottle stopper from an empty bottle and resuse it after you refill the bottle (I use a small thin nail file to pry it out). However the opening for the syringe tip can stretch over time causing leaking so it is a good idea to replace them now and then.

 

You may want to spend a week or so at 1 ml after you start using the liquid to you can get used to the idea before you add the taper. People sometimes have some extra anxiety whenever they switch anything about how they take their medicine. I know that happens to me! That may be what happened to you when swtiched from 6x to 4x a day using dry cut.

 

 

[[Mi...]]

Done. First batch made!

Went the extra mile to suss out proper supplies. To wit:

- 3 amber glass medicine bottles with 3 stoppers

- 10 1 ml syringes, identical to the ones you have. That is with 100 markings.

One problem that I encountered was that the Valium tablets were not dissolving in the ethanol. I had to pitch it.

Second try: crushed tablets with the back of a spoon on a mirror.  Used razor blade to chop away until I had a fine dust à la cocaine, I guess. Just copied technique seen in movies.  Felt like a bloody junkie!

 

So I will stay at 1 mg liquid for a few days. Yes, like you I do get anxious when making changes in how I take the Valium.  I hope the difference from dry to liquid will not be obvious.

 

I plan on beginning my taper on Monday, if the weekend proves to be uneventful in terms of switching from dry to liquid dose.

 

I am very impressed that you are able to calculate the remaining Valium in your body - active and metabolites!  No idea how you worked that out!

 

You have been a real treat Peter!  Your support, advise and knowledge have been invaluable in helping me reach the point where I am able to begin the last leg of this journey.  No doubt, it will take quite some time, but with such a precise and gentle taper plan, I am hoping that I will be successful.  Let’s stay in touch!  I’ll let you know how I handled the switch from dry to liquid.

You let me know how your steady ongoing process is unfolding.  1,000 thanks!