I got my sleep study results

[[ne...]]

Oh my,  you've got a lot on your plate, do you. It seems like you are doing the best that you possibly can, under those circumstances. Also, sounds like a sleep lab in there! 

 

I wish you a speedy recovery!

Xoxo

[[Sw...]]

Following

 

[[So...]]

Hi Thomas: It seems you are doing better than most of us. Seven hours of sleep is great! I, however, have broken sleep since I started my DLMT on January of this year. Wake one of two times during the night; I am able to go back to sleep but not right away. I have to meditate, meditate, and meditate. I have been able to function this way so far, but I know it is not good. So I have also been trying to experiment with changing my supper time and adding more carbs. My holistic psychiatrist has encouraged me to add Tryptophan to my cocktail. I also have added magnesium, potassium, and coconut oil at night. I believe I also need more sleep pressure. I slept better last night. I do take Melatonin 1mg. My doc says 3mg is way too much. However I wonder whether I should increase it. I would like to ask you why do you take Melatonin with dinner? Isn't it better fight before bedtime?

[[Th...]]

Hi Solyluna, well I had 7 hrs sleep when I tapered and took Elavil as well but novadays it is something like 4 hours and then need to wait before having some more sleep so my sleep is very similar what you describe.

 

I take melatonin about 1.5 hrs before bed at the time of dinner as I have late dinner. My sleep doc adviced me to do it but I never asked why. I assumed melatonin needs some time before it effects but not sure. I have tried trypthophan as well, according my understanding it converts to melatonin as well in the evening but haven't verified it.

[[Gl...]]

Oh, boy.  My insomnia is what got me on this horrible trip.  My first attempt at a sleep study, I got almost zero sleep, even with their Sonata pill so they could not do the study.  The second time I took my Temazepam and got enough for them to study.  Of course, they found nothing other than insomnia.  I then had my cortisol levels tested and that told the real story - levels high when I should be sleeping, especially in the early am. 

 

I am a long term insomniac so have tried everything under the sun.  Melatonin at a low dose works for a night or two but gives me horrible nightmares.  I tried several cortisol manager natural remedies with scant results but may have to try that again since I just started my taper and already having sleep issues. 

 

I'm sure they told you about the whole sleep hygiene thing - no tv in room, keep room dark, etc.  I do all those things.  I see that one doc suggested eating larger meal late.  I have always been told to eat my evening meal early, so that's what I've been doing.  I'll reinstate my carb snack before bed to see if that helps. 

 

Good luck to all of us!

[[Re...]]

Oh, boy.  My insomnia is what got me on this horrible trip.  My first attempt at a sleep study, I got almost zero sleep, even with their Sonata pill so they could not do the study.  The second time I took my Temazepam and got enough for them to study.  Of course, they found nothing other than insomnia.  I then had my cortisol levels tested and that told the real story - levels high when I should be sleeping, especially in the early am. 

 

I am a long term insomniac so have tried everything under the sun.  Melatonin at a low dose works for a night or two but gives me horrible nightmares.  I tried several cortisol manager natural remedies with scant results but may have to try that again since I just started my taper and already having sleep issues. 

 

I'm sure they told you about the whole sleep hygiene thing - no tv in room, keep room dark, etc.  I do all those things.  I see that one doc suggested eating larger meal late.  I have always been told to eat my evening meal early, so that's what I've been doing.  I'll reinstate my carb snack before bed to see if that helps. 

 

Good luck to all of us!

 

Insomnia got me on this crazy train ride, too.  Now, it's but one of a multitude of symptoms.  I am down to 100mg of gabapentin per day in two doses; 50mg am and 50mg pm. It's not much but I'm actually in quite a bit of agony with my symptoms.  No fun.  I wonder if dry cutting is now causing me to be less than accurate as I don't know if the gabapentin medication is evenly distributed in the powder within the capsule.  You wouldn't notice it so much when removing a small amount from the powder, but now I'm consuming only half the powder from a 50mg capsule, so what is filler and what is actual gabapentin medicine?  This might require water titration to get a more accurate dosage as I go lower.  I don't know.  It's all so darned crazy.

 

-RST

[[Gl...]]

I just started and agree that splitting the powder in capsules is not very 'scientific'.  I am thinking of trying something else but have heard from a pharmacist the benzos are not water soluble.  Hmmm

[[Re...]]

I just talked to two compounding pharmacists and they say that the powder is uniformly mixed.  That is to say that if you were to remove half the powder, then you'd remove 50% of the gabapentin.  That gives me quite a bit more comfort.  However, they informed me of another issue:  there is variability in the amount of gabapentin in each capsule.  These pharmacists informed me that the precision in these capsules is + or - 5%.  That sucks if one is trying to do a controlled micro-taper.  So, a 100mg capsule could contain as much as 105mg or as little as 95mg of gabapentin. 

 

For those of us who are super sensitive, this requires a different approach, something to minimize the effect of this variability.  I'm going to establish a standard weight and then match each tablet to that weight by adding or substracting a the difference.  For example, the average weight of 100mgs of gabapentin powder is 0.131grams.  Therefore, That is the weight I will use and when I open a tablet, I'll remove any more than 0.131 grams from my starting volume, or add from extra powder to get to .131 grams as my starting powder weight.  Then, I'll remove from that standardized sample whatever I intend to cut on that day.  This will help minimize the inherent variability and hopefully lead to a smoother taper.

 

As far as I know, benzos are not soluble in water.  Gabapentin is supposed to be although some pharmacists have said the powder from capsules may not allow the gabapentin to dissolve into a solution and rather produce a suspension.  I know lots of people water titrate gabapentin.  I tried to but didn't have luck with that method and that's why I went to dry cutting with a high quality gram scale.

 

No fun...... waaaah.

 

-RST

[[Gl...]]

Great info, thanks. 

[[Su...]]

I just started and agree that splitting the powder in capsules is not very 'scientific'.  I am thinking of trying something else but have heard from a pharmacist the benzos are not water soluble.  Hmmm

Hi there Globalone,

BenZos are not water soluble and need to be mixed with alcohol, propylene glycol or milk (some use nut milks)  water alone won't do it. 

there's lots of information on titration methods on the Daily Liquid Micro Taper thread and others.....

I find it super helpful-  the liquid thingey....

 

Or some use jewellers scales to do a dry cut....

Wishing you the best

SS

[[me...]]

Hi there Globalone,

BenZos are not water soluble and need to be mixed with alcohol, propylene glycol or milk (some use nut milks)  water alone won't do it.

there's lots of information on titration methods on the Daily Liquid Micro Taper thread and others.....

I find it super helpful-  the liquid thingey....

 

Or some use jewellers scales to do a dry cut....

Wishing you the best

SS

 

It is true that most benzos are not very soluble in water, but it is not always necessary to have a true solution, a good suspension will also work just fine, and many benzos will form a good suspension. They can be agitated just before dosing (but many times it is filler that is most visible).

 

Gabapentin is not a benzo, and it is very soluble in water. I happen to have some (hated the stuff), and checked it out. The stuff that is visible is probably filler, and is easy to suspend anyways with a bit of agitation. Water titration should work very well with Gabapentin. If variation between capsules is a concern, you could empty a few capsules into a set amount of water, and divide the total amount to get the right dosage. This would give you a good average amount.

[[Th...]]

Hi, I just want to check in here and report how this goes. So my sleep status is following:

 

During the tapering: 7 hours broken sleep, did not feel it is an issue.

M1: 4 hours in average, waking up 3-5 times... well, study said I woke up more than 30 times.

M2: 4-5 hours sleep, waking up maybe 2-4 times

M3: 4-5 hours sleep, waking up maybe 2-3 times

M4: 6 hours sleep, waking up couple of times and be able to sleep additional 1hr or so in the morning, 1-2 wake ups in the middle of 6 hrs sleep.

 

 

M1 I had problem of falling a sleep so it took something like 0.5-1 hrs to knock out but it has improved so novadays I fall a sleep typically in 5-10 minutes. Melatonin is only aid at the moment. I take 3mg every evening. I try to avoid all strong drugs in order to allow natural sleep return.

 

So sleep improves slowly over time which is great! My most scary symptoms like cramps and inner vibration occurs during the night and they have lessened materially as well so need to be happy about it. Well, I do not consider insomnia as a major isssue anymore but taking nap is still a problem. Despite of feeling tired during the day I can not take nap or if I sometimes suceed then I get vibrations which spoils my day. Hopefully this is just benzo driven crazy thing.

 

Good news is an improvment so this confirms what Ashton says about insomnia.

 

Hopefully you have seen sleep improvements as well! T.

[[sc...]]

Hiya

I just posted about my sleep study. Doc mentioned Elavil. Im gonna try chem free relaxatiin techniques first but im interested in your experience. Have u ever just taken elavil by itself?

[[Th...]]

Hi, yes I took Elavil at the time I tapered and it increased my sleep amount. I quit Elavil one week before my jump. Reason to do it was my wish to get natural sleep back so I decided rater suffering about less sleep than take drug and hope that I have quite good natural sleep one day. Well, last night I slept first 4.5 hours, woke up and slept maybe 1.5 hours more so total sleep was roughly 6 hours - not great but so bad either. Novadays I take 1.6mg melatonin every evening.

[[sc...]]

Thanks for he reply.

Im loathe to take more chemicals but after another night of waking at 330am a pill seems like the easiest relief. 20months and still busted sleep arrrgh! Psychologist says its cortisol that wakes us up. really interesting about the carb at night. Im with a few people and try to avoid late eaing at night. Not tonight. Bowl of pasta before bed. Great and informative thread . Did your Sleep doc talk about brain alpha wave intusions preventing deep sleep?

[[Th...]]

Hi, I hadn't any discussion about alpha wave so I need to ask when I'll see him. Two questions: in one of your post you said your inner vibes have gone. What do you mean?  I have inner vibrations in my head at nights and when I wake up. Did you had someting similar? Other question: did pasta bowl worked? Take care! T.

[[sc...]]

Hi there,

Yeah its like a shaking feeling inside . I had it in my head and body. like leaning agaist a clotgws 2asher in spin. Only when super tired and they dont worry me. Pasta did nothing for sleep but i enjoyed it. Still up at 330.

[[Ba...]]

Hello and glad to find this thread!!

 

So far in this thread have read eat carbs before bed (cereal, pasta, bread?)... and I know about the hygiene but I don't do it.

 

I suppose should start new thread but... sleep was big prob before benzos.  I inherited screwed up circadian rhythm (mostly up at night)  but then it fractured to non 24.  I was put on benzos decades ago and they worked well for me.  Please note I cannot take antihistamines, ADs, most anything else.  Was told was on them for life.

 

But they weren't really working, 3 3or 4 decades later,  so I was tapering.  Then tried mirtazapine for 6 weeks, low dose (see sig)-- totally ruined me.  Very very sick on, and then worse off.  And yeah, basically CT

 

At that point general drs. said take bunch of valium and lyrica but since they did not believe mirtazapine could do this, I didn't trust them.

 

I listened to a FB person said to taper benzos.  Stupid of me to listen; did not know mirtz withdrawal same as benzo and should have allowed way more time.    I tried to switch to valium... about 100% valium now, not that it an improvement.  And usually ambien or part of one.  I sleep terribly and vibrating symptoms...  not much functional at all.

 

Any thoughts??

 

Oh, yeah and can't take melatonin tho occasionally I try to take like .5 mg.  Once in a while it is ok but if I take more get depression.

 

Can't take phenergan-- dries me out.

Nor propranalol-- also dries me out.

 

I am a mess and a very tough non-sleep case.

 

Went to Stanford U sleep lab when I was like 18 or so...  they told me I did not fall asleep, which I already knew.

 

I assume no point doing more sleep stuff now?  Do they do anything differently?

 

thx so much.  sorry to complain I am just suffering.

[[do...]]

Following. Great info on carbs late at night 

[[Th...]]

I update my insomnia status now when I'm 6 months off. My sleep went down to 4 hrs at the time I jumped and also quit elavil.  As per my doc advice I started taking 20mg propranolol in the evening in order to drive BP and internal tremor down. In addition to this I took 3mg melatonin in the evening.

 

During the last 6 months my sleep has improved from 4 hrs. to 6.5-7 hrs. Typically I go to the bed at 9.30 pm and stay there until 5 am. So total time in the bed is 7.5 hrs but I wake up 1-3 times a night so total sleep is less. I stoped taking melatonin but still continue taking propranolol in order to keep BP and internal tremor away. My internal tremor mainly in head when I wake up is maybe 97% gone away which is big victory.

 

I still follow my sleep doc's advices as written in my original post but I have start taking naps. I could not take naps at all during last 8-10 months due to internal tremor. I was not able to fall a sleep during the day and was afraid to do so. Also felt like crap after the naps so they were like toxic naps.

Now I have been able to take naps maybe during the last 2 weeks and I took somehting like 45 minutes nap yesterday and today without feeling bad afterwards. In the othr words naps seems to work now and they do dot disturb my night sleep anymore. I take my ability to take a nap as a sign of healing and continue taking them as it removes my daytime tiredness.

 

I want to update here in order to tell that sleep becomes better over the time as written in the Ashton Manual.

[[ni...]]

These have been interesting posts. I'm learning a lot and perhaps more than I ever wanted to know before the benzo train pulled into my station.

One important thing I learned was that even though I sleep now and then, but still feel horrible the next day, I am probably not getting a good sleep. This helps explain why I don't feel like I have slept.

When I go to bed, I fall quickly to sleep, but 99% of the time, I wake up an hour later and may or may not go back to sleep. My sleep is broken all night long and rarely do I sleep more than an hour or two straight.

I'll keep following these posts and wish everyone the best with recovery and sleep.

[[Th...]]

These have been interesting posts. I'm learning a lot and perhaps more than I ever wanted to know before the benzo train pulled into my station.

One important thing I learned was that even though I sleep now and then, but still feel horrible the next day, I am probably not getting a good sleep. This helps explain why I don't feel like I have slept.

When I go to bed, I fall quickly to sleep, but 99% of the time, I wake up an hour later and may or may not go back to sleep. My sleep is broken all night long and rarely do I sleep more than an hour or two straight.

I'll keep following these posts and wish everyone the best with recovery and sleep.

 

The broken sleep pattern you describe is VERY COMMON and what most people go through during WD.  It slowly gets better.  I still have broken sleep at 20 months off.  Sometimes I wake up about 5-10 times per night but still manage 5-8 hours of sleep most nights.  It will get better.

[[Th...]]

I had overnight sleep study 2 weeks ago and got result from the doc today. Study was done by wiring me 25 sensors measuring EKG, EEG, BP, heart rate, oxygen in blood, breathing etc.

 

Study result was the following:

Sleep amount was good (7.5 hrs) but quality was bad. My BP did not drop at all but stayed the same it was during the wake. Oxygen level was little bit too low and some other issues. Bottomline was that despite of the sleep my sympathetic nervous system / brains stayed overactive during the whole night causing issues and bad quality sleep. I think that this can be well accepted result as typically CNS is overactive during the benzo withdrawal period.

 

I also got very good and simple instructions how to cool down my sympathetic nervous system and increase my sleep quality:

 

Main thing is to increase your sleep pressure towards evening

- Do not get sleepy during the day by eating light breakfast and lunch + 3-4 snacks during the day.

- Forget naps during the day and in case you become sleepy start doing something or go outside and exercise a little; walk, gym etc.

- Eat your main meal late in the evening 1.5 hrs. before bedtime. Add some carbohydrate type of stuff to you meal like pasta, rice etc. - all this makes you sleepy afterwards.

- When you became sleepy, go to the bed withing 15 minutes after the sleepy feeling.

In addition to this doc asked me to take melatonin. He said it does not have huge impact but might increase sleep quality 5-10%. He said it might be the necessary trigger to get to get better sleep in addition of increasing sleep pressure. Melatonin need to be taken immediately after the main evening meal.

 

Doc said that he has seen many patients, who have followed instructions above and sleep quality has materially increased. He also said that following the instructions given cools down sympathetic nervous system in couple of months. We agreed that i will meet him on October and we will review the results and agree if followup study is necessary or not.

 

Well I believed my doc as he has over 15 years experience of doing this and he consults lot of athletes including Olympic team. Decided start as per his instructions already today... Let's see how it goes.

 

I am not sure I would trust a doctor's advice regarding Melatonin.  It is a hormone that is sold OTC in the US.  Anytime you introduce a hormone, especially every night, you run the risk that your body will stop making it?  Maybe a few times per week, especially if it only provides 5-10% sleep improvement.  Doctors in the US LOVE to immediately put people on Rx drugs that often do nothing to correct the underlying condition.  That is pretty much Western Medicine in a nutshell.  Go to doctor.  Give doctor your list of symptoms.  Doctor writes Rx script.  You take Rx drugs.  Drugs "mask" symptoms.  You are cured!  LOL!

[[Th...]]

These have been interesting posts. I'm learning a lot and perhaps more than I ever wanted to know before the benzo train pulled into my station.

One important thing I learned was that even though I sleep now and then, but still feel horrible the next day, I am probably not getting a good sleep. This helps explain why I don't feel like I have slept.

When I go to bed, I fall quickly to sleep, but 99% of the time, I wake up an hour later and may or may not go back to sleep. My sleep is broken all night long and rarely do I sleep more than an hour or two straight.

I'll keep following these posts and wish everyone the best with recovery and sleep.

 

You descibed well what has been my case as well. Well, it still is but maybe my first straight sleep is longer than an hour. Sometimes maybe 3 hours. However my sleep was exactly the same what you described so it is benzos doing it because this seems to be common.

[[Th...]]

Theway2, I agree your melatonin comments and try to manage as little drugs as possible. So I have managed now almost a week without melatonin. Did not notice any change in my sleep when came of the melatonin so one drug less 😊😊😊