so kindled and sick failed detox failed reinstatement

[Guest [CM...]]

Hi Chris

It sounds like you are posting from the hospital.

I hope they can keep you and do a long taper.

There has to be a neurologist and an addiction specialist there.

Can one of the doctors there reach out and call Matt Torrington or ken starr or any of the resources that Jackson and others posted about?

Maybe they can offer advice to the hospital doctor.

Praying they can help you there in the hospital.

 

[[De...]]

Hey chris , Your are saying that you have almost sure that you are having a paradoxical effect from benzos If so

 

  Im reading about paradoxical effects and what can you do for it. you should provide some of that information to the doctors

 

If you are in the hospital yet , explain to the doctor that you started to have a paradoxical effect from the sedatives

that you are taking, Tell the doctor that your feeling so bad, so agitated , with pain and so many phisical and mental symptoms that you are having homicidal and suicidal toughts, so they have to accept you there (Try not to use this as argument for beeing acepted in a hard way) just explaining why they should not let you go.

 

what Im saying is that you need to explain the situation in a point that the doctor will undertand and feel what is going on with you , And ask them to please provide the best that they can to help you in the right way because you are really nedding their help, And maybe you can show the following information, For them to take the right decisions in what to do to help you

 

 

There are several reports of patients who had a PR with one benzodiazepine, yet were able to tolerate a different benzodiazepine (Mancuso 2004).  However, for acute management it may be safest to avoid this class of drugs entirely."

 

Paradoxical effect from benzodiazepines And propofol

 

"Regardless, this is an important diagnosis to recognize because it requires specific management"

 

http://emcrit.org/pulmcrit/recognizing-and-managing-paradoxical-reactions-from-benzodiazepines-propofol/

 

Management of paradoxical reactions

.

•Treatment consists of discontinuing the offending agent and reversing it if possible (with flumazenil for PRs due to benzodiazepine).  If needed, non-GABA sedatives may be used (e.g. ketamine,opioids)

 

" maybe some buddies can add more options of non-gaba sedatives for you to habdle all that  ".

 

"there are other options but you should avoid antipsichotics because they can screw you more , so tell you have bad reactions to any antipsichotics the new and the old ones, tell them that it makes you worst"

 

•Failing to recognize and treat a PR might lead to a vicious cycle of ongoing agitation

 

Step 1:  Stop the offending agent

 

The most important aspect is recognizing the PR and discontinuing the causative medication.  Some early investigators felt that that PR might reflect “undersedation” which would respond to dose escalation, but this has proven to be counterproductive in an RCT and case reports involving benzodiazepines (Golparvar 2004, Fiset 1992).

 

Failure to diagnose that the patient is experiencing a PR may lead to progressive up-titration of sedative dose, leading to a vicious cycle:

.

Step #2:  Counteract residual drug: Flumazenil

 

Propofol will be rapidly metabolized, so residual drug is only an issue for benzodiazepines.  Flumazenil appears to be an excellent treatment if not contraindicated (e.g. by chronic benzodiazepine use).  About a dozen case reports describe flumazenil as being uniformly effective in rapidly terminating a PR due to a benzodiazepine.  Furthermore, flumazenil appears to terminate the PR while preserving amnesia and sedation, generally allowing completion of the procedure.

 

.

Step #3:  Add a non-GABA sedating medication

 

If the patient still requires sedation following the above steps, a sedative that doesn’t interact with GABA receptors may be added. 

 

There are several reports of patients who had a PR with one benzodiazepine, yet were able to tolerate a different benzodiazepine (Mancuso 2004). 

 

However, for acute management it may be safest to avoid this class of drugs entirely.

 

Non-GABA options include opioids,  dexmedetomidine, and ketamine.  There is little evidence to determine the best option

 

•Ketamine: One RCT of 24 children <6 YO with PRs due to midazolam found ketamine 0.5 mg/kg to be effective (Golparvar 2004). 

 

•Occasionally benzodiazepines induce a paradoxical reaction marked by agitated delirium with emotional lability and restlessness. 

 

•Risk factors for paradoxical reactions include psychiatric comorbidity, extremes of age, and alcoholism.

 

•Treatment consists of discontinuing the offending agent and reversing it if possible (with flumazenil for PRs due to benzodiazepine).  If needed, non-GABA sedatives may be used (e.g. ketamine,  opioids).

 

•Failing to recognize and treat a PR might lead to a vicious cycle of ongoing agitation:

 

Related blogs: The paradoxical excitation response by ScanCrit

 

 

Stay tuned, this is the first of a series of two posts about GABA receptors run amok in critically ill patients. 

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

I dont know  what others buddies here think about what im saying ,after all im trying to help in what i can, but its hard for me to help because im feelling pretty screwed myself

But im feeling what is going on with you and must be very hard to be on your shoes mate

 

" i hope you can see this last post in time and if you still at the hospital,  provide that info to the doctors"

 

CONClUSION

 

 

AFTER ALL You should provide the informations Above to the doctors, explain that you started to have a paradoxical effect from the benzodiazepines that you take in high doses and maybe thats the case , and if thats the case, how can theu help you from there

 

 

And dont forget to tell them about the induced akhatisia, And see what anti-cholinergic medicaation fit best for you

[[li...]]

'homicidal and suicidal toughts' I don't know, that could cause inintended consequences ?

 

If if the benzo (it is really the benzo ? what about methadone?) causes paradoxical reactions, it may seem a simple solution to stop that drug. However, because of the physical dependency, the high dose, the time he has been on it you have to be very, very careful about that.

I don't see how you could replace that with ketamine or an opioid !

[[Hi...]]

Theres no addiction speacialist here... they are basic a just watching me

[[Ja...]]

Stay there as long as possible. You need to be watched. It will make you feel safer and calm the fears.

The other things mentioned were good ideas...

Like I said if it is paradoxical, you need someone like Matt Torrington to figure it out and help. Call and see if he can talk w the doctors there or something? idk.

The things mentioned to me are:

neurontin

ketamine

lamictal

The ketamine for a reset. You wouldnt be on it indefinitely.

and flumanezil was mentioned to me by Torrington only after you are off benzo. you cannot be on both.

The Coleman Institute does a flumanezil detox. Someone once posted here feeling recovered after/

i bet so many people do recover they just are not on BB.

So glad you are being watched!!!!! Stay there and tell them you are a harm to self/other if you leave.

They will keep you.

 

[[Be...]]

Chris, are you able to do some of your own research on the web and see if there are other ppl. who are in your same situation or have been and what they've done to get better?  Maybe there is a forum for those with your polydrug problems?  It sounds complicated and includes other drugs besides benzo's and most ppl. on this site are benzo's and Z-drugs.  Just trying to help. 

[[li...]]

I just see some dangerous advice.

 

Perhaps a moderator could step in ?

 

Neurontin=gabapentin. I believe this caused problems ?

 

Ketamine. Seems dangerous. Benefit at best dubious.

 

Lamictal ? Who knows ? Same goes for carbamazepine and oxcarbazepine.

 

For as far as I know, the Coleman institute stopped doing flumazenil detoxes. I could be wrong.

 

I'm not sure that 'just watching' is beneficial.

 

 

[[Ja...]]

Sorry I was trying to be helpful and just relay what my doctor told me regarding Akathesia

Obviously I am not a doctor and not giving medical advice at all.

Sorry to offend. Will stop posting.

[[ro...]]

Sorry I was trying to be helpful and just relay what my doctor told me regarding Akathesia

Obviously I am not a doctor and not giving medical advice at all.

Sorry to offend. Will stop posting.

 

No need to apologise mate. You're doing your level best to help someone out in need. Thats all we can do.

 

If we all knew the answer to situations like this... our world would be a better place

[[Hi...]]

Jackson no dont stop posting! I have found your suggestions of things to ask doctors about and seeking stabilization to be of the greatest help so far i truly thank you from bottom of my hear.

 

So the gabapentin i am back on it and it is helping all the things i thought it was causing it was actually helping with i think it just stopped working and need a higher dose because i went back on it and feel a lot better.

 

So no i am not going to take lamictal or carbazepine or anything like that right now because my genetics test says i cant metabolize those correctly i thought i sslreadu posted about this. So what they want to do in the hospital starting today is since i have to getboff the ativan and my genetics test says i am a poor metabolizer for ativan. They want to do a direct crossover to klonopin. They are going to start me on 2mg 3x a day and see whst happens. I am very worriedabout this but its worth a shot to try to stabilize me?

 

If i can stabilize then i can start to taper off of it. I hope it doesn't make my akathisia worse ibknow its not good to do direct crossover but its the option i have and im in a safe place.

Im worried about everything thats going on for sure

 

There are other things happening to me as well. Like my blood platelet levels have dropped in half in a month to 127 which is pretty below normal i havent poopedin 7 days

my jointsand neck and head and back hurt so bad my pain iscat a 7 to ten regularly this all started two weeks ago. I feel so so tired and sedated but its not a good kind of sedation its just like my body has given up but then the akathisia and adrenaline spike ocasionally and dysphoria.

 

There amonia in my blood which is not good all these things are what landed me in the hospital but they are saying my blood tests are normal and not life threatening but if you look at the trends its bad. I still have that possitive screening for lyme band 41 which is antibody they wont look into and im scared of whats causing what obviously all this isnt from the meds

 

I dont think switchingto klonopin will sdolve all my problems but what do you guys think? Thesecare myboptions im in the hospital so im safe and something needs to happen i cant continue on the road ivbeen on too sick and kindling and i want help im in a safe place where i can get help although ghey do not know anything about detox or ashton or benxo or kindling but im tryingto educate and they are listening at least open minded if it mskes things worse we can switch back

 

What do other people think?

 

I need them to look into this physical health stuff but they are more focussed on the meds which is why i came here cuz i been litterally falling apart.

 

Im not sure how to get off the benzos at this pointbim so traumatized and will kindliing affect my ability to transfer benzos? I switched to kpin in psyche ward briefly a couple months ago at same time i ctd gabapentin so idk what was causing what but i felt like issues were more from stopping gabapentin and i was only on 4mg klonopin now this will be 6 to stsrt with and we can go up or down depending on whats happening.

 

I am scared the kpin could destabilize me further but i dont see how.

 

Any feedback please? I dont have luxury of how a lot of you are stable for most partcand battling tough symtoms tobget throgh this im having severe reactions and health decline from whatever is going on and my blood tests say its more thsn nust benzos. But hopefully the kpin will help since i am doing a direct crossover i will need to hold for a period of time right?

 

Please offer all support you can idknif if ill need to detox and go through the extreme torment or if they can help level me out i know lots of people here are against all medications i am too but sometimes other meds are needed to come off when you are in this bad of shape yes im terrified but i do need possitive feedback im open to things to look ot for too but not you just need to getboff everything i alreadybknow that and so far every single attempt to just get off everything has landed me in worse shape more kindled and i cant taper directly because my symptoms are too severe so thank you everyone... Jackson please stick close you are my rock on here right now. What do you think guys?

Can benzos cause like autoimmune disease? How do you test for that? It says on my genetics test that my body will metabolizeklonopin corectly. Gabapentin has to stay for now i will probably have to be on it for a very long time

 

What should i discuss with doctor my mental symptoms have died down a bit since going back on gaba

anyone have any guesses as to why these sudden decline in my health?

Ca besides benzos? Ya my liver and hep c arent that great

[[De...]]

Hey chris

 

There are several reports of patients who had a PR(paradoxical effects ) with one benzodiazepine, yet were able to tolerate a different benzodiazepine (Mancuso 2004). 

 

That said , i hope you do better on clonazepam ,as your doing on xanax .

 

You are back on gabapetin , thats ok , if u feeling more stabilized , then for now you should stick on it

 

After all that , If u get stable and i hope you get , you should wait a little things to settle down inside of you (brain . etc)

 

You got to get stable to do anything bro , when u feel stable after a while you start to think about tapering methadone first ?

 

Probably on the hospital they will discover any organic problem of yours. ( ? )

 

The worst case scenario is that if your started to have a paradoxical effect from the benzodiazepines . And if this the case , you will have to get a whole new strategy .

 

  some cases of paradoxical effect from benzos, Maybe a crossover from xanax to clonazepam can solve the problem

 

waiting for more insights of others here .

[[Hi...]]

Thanks deniz im hoping so too. Im scared

[[Po...]]

Haven't posted to you in awhile, but  I have been reading.  Life is so bad for me right now I don't want to take you down any farther.

 

Know that I pray for you.  It is all I can do.

 

Patti

[[Be...]]

Chris, when I was on the benzo's and Z-drugs, I had a positive ANA antibody test with a homogenous pattern, the lab report said.  Then the neurologist sent me to a Rheumatologist and they did more tests and found out I have an anti-phospholipid antibody and am prone to bleeding.  They tried to diagnose me with Lupus but then I went to a Hematologist who looked over my labs and diagnosed me with Thrombophilia, at risk of stroke and heart attack.  My platelets were borderline low, too.  My SED rate was low at 2, my phosphatase blood level was borderline low and protein was low.  Maybe they can run some antibody tests and see if anything shows up?  That would show an auto-immune response in your body.  I think drugs can cause auto-immune responses.  I was healthy otherwise at the time with no Lyme, etc. and still working.  Praying for you.   

[[Ja...]]

Hi Chris

Glad you are a bit better

I say the crossover will be ok.. Were u on Ativan? They didn't want to cross to Valium?

Whatever it is it will be better than it was

I don't think neurontin is that big of a deal but that is me.. I would much prefer to taper off gabapentin over time than a benzo. Much more innocuous I think....

If it is working great.

I just had an hour long conversation w Richard Mesteyar the md psychiatrist who does NAD. Lovely man. Makes no promises. He said benzos are a mystery as to why some ppl are in this kind of hell and others not. I think when your body goes into shock lots of immune of adrenal things can happen. Look, I am a hypochondriac. Always have been. And I have real issues which have given me PTSD like my interstitial cystitis. But I go to the worst case scenario. It really is a form of self harm the negativistic thinking I have had my whole life. I think my issues are coming to s head bc the universe or whatever is saying you can't go on thinking and fearing life as much as I have... Hard life lesson. Someone said here that their benzo experience helped them get over their fear of death. I can relate to that!!

The best thing right now I think is to not try to think for the doctors and they will be looking for autoimmune markers such as the Ana etc. it is a pretty vague marker. Mine is 40 on the border.. Whatever I have who knows and maybe you will never know what you have. I can say that the amount of stress and w/d hell you have been in would likely disrupt your body and immune system but once you get stable it will calm down. So they can do ANA test and you can ask for rheumatology to see you and evaluate your situation.

The doc I talked to said in the past cogentin was used for Akathesia. But he was honest in the lack of understanding of why some ppl like the ppl on these boards have these acute horrifying experiences. He told me while NAD helps, it is primarily used for opioids and alcohol. He said the ppl he has worked with are better.. Was it a magic bullet no but with the help of other meds like gabapentin and calming herbs ( he mentioned some amino acids I forget) and an NAD nasal spray to start with we can see how I do...

It's crazy expensive and in Louisiana and not a quick fix but the guy Kenn Starr does it in San Louis obispo. Something to think about somewhere down the road possibly.

It's all about finding what can reset the neurotransmitters.

I really don't think u habe Lyme.

I have those markers too. It's the diagnosis of the day these days.

Download insight timer app on your phone.

Calm your mind, tell yourself I am getting better this is going to work and I am going to make it thru this. It will be a long hard road but you will get there.

You can do this. Don't cold turkey anything anymore. I think that is where ppl really get in trouble. Stay the course, listen to your gut and the doctor and take direction and put one foot in front of the other as you have been doing. I can only imagine the hell u have been thru. It's beyond words. I felt it too and have no words to describe it. But like everything it is impermanent, feelings and sensations change and pass...... Thinking of you and keep us posted on your recovery and crossover

I didn't even know crossing over was a big deal so I just switched to Valium from Ativan several mos ago. Someone I just talked to just switched too and is feeling better. Tell yourself this is going to work. Nothing fast, just slow and steady....

Hang in there.

[[Hi...]]

I think im having a paradoxical reaction to kpin i was absolutely fine really untill i took it at 2pm and hour later i was jumpy agitated restless photophobia clenching jaw akathisia ive been so calm the last two days after restarting the gaba thus started as soon as i took the kpin. And then it died down a bit and now im marching in place nred to escape my boduy

 

Yes im in the hospital but the doctors here say they dontknow anything about benzos they tried to ct me and say i could take ativan for breakthrough anxiety and i said no thats not how this works then suggested the kpin my idea a psych came in today and said he wants me to think about starting zyprexa or seroquel and effexor to help stabilizer me i saud all drugs make me worse i have akathisia im not going to start an antipsychotic

 

Yes about the ana i will ask idk whats going on with my joints and the pain onlybthese last couple weks massive doses of ibuprofen do nothing

 

My platlets scaring me they said they want to stabilize me and find another facility detox psych ward for me to go to..... thsts not going to help nothing is going to help. Im in so much agony

 

I know ken stsr now who you are talking about my friend rex went there for benzo detox they gave him valium for 5 days and sent him home he was having seizures in frontbof hospital readmited him for nad and made his seizures worse thats one case but they would not readmit him after that left him in the park in massive wd

 

I know im in hospital so im being monitored for safety idk if it takes a while to stabilize on klonopin if it would be worse for a bit or if its paradoxical im crying in pain and they wont give me anything cuz they just gave ibuprofen but its not doing anything

 

This hospital is going to send me to a detox..  oh god i dont deserve this im trying so hard

[[Hi...]]

Im sorry dude i having a reaction to the kpin like jumpy and brain zaps severe agitation and violent severe restlessness and weird shit drowning it only happens right after i take the pins its scary man i dont want to go back to ativan but its like electrical brain shocks like when you quit antidepressants but it happens from taking the kpin idk if i need to stickblonger i have sonmsny other health problems

[[Hi...]]

the doctor said that they arent doing anything for any of my health problems that they are looking to send me to a psych facility and they sre starting effecor and zyprexa even though i told them thst ive been on them before and they dont help make things worseThey wont look into any more physical stuff they said that thats secondary to mental they wont chech immune system or ana the case manager is looking to send me to psych facility and he sais hillmont is only one in county they wont check whats wrong with my joints i said this is brand new i asked for doctor to call you my lymph nodes if they send me to psych facility it has to have addiction speacialist...dont other meds make things worse? I already have liver problems and they want to start meds that hurt my liver they say my platlets are from hep c but they dropped to dangers levels in 2 weeks also they want to put me back on the ativan ohhhhh god help me anyone?

[[Se...]]

Jackson,

 

"Download insight timer app on your phone."

 

This is a TERRIFC app. I would recommend it to everyone on this forum.

 

Thanks so much for introducing us to this wonderful place. 👍🏻

 

[[li...]]

This pain thing. You're still on methadone ? I'm not sure what giving you another opiate would do.

 

Gabapentin and Lyrica may work for neuropathic pain, but you're already on gabapentin. Certain antidepressants may help, but I wouldn't recommend them.

 

'They wont look into any more physical stuff they said that thats secondary to mental '

That's a common mistake. You're in a psych hospital ? That's the downside of being inside such a place. They know very little about somatic health.

Can you get them to research akathisia ? Various drugs have been mentioned on this forum.

 

Oh, it seems I skipped some posts but I'm not going to rewrite this.

'Im sorry dude i having a reaction to the kpin like jumpy and brain zaps severe agitation and violent severe restlessness and weird shit drowning'

Not good. This drug can have nasty side effects. Maybe give it some time, or not.

 

Perhaps the joint pain is related to Klonopin ?

 

'also they want to put me back on the ativan' Whatever you do, make it clear it is a drug you can't just stop and start taking again !

 

[[Ja...]]

Have u tried Valium??

It's easier according to Ashton to taper

I crossed from Ativan to Valium

I wouldn't worry too much about autoimmune stuff. Your system is in a shock so first thing is to calm it down.

A couple of days ago the gaba was helping.. Not helpful to keep switching it's hard to say what will work

Typically when ppl are in a stress state xyprexa is used

My doc initially wanted me to take it but then I realized it was w/d. It can knock things out.

But like I said my doc mentioned these things; gabapentin, lamictal and lyrica and ketamine and this guy Mesteyar I talked w said cogentin but I don't know what kind of drug it is.

You need a guy like Torrington to step in and figure this out. Any money from the fund page?

You need someone smart and who can think out of the box.

Seroquel I took it when I was in Akathesia for a couple of days. Nothing touched it. It did nothing for me and I know it puts grown men out but I still felt like I was lit on fire

I just got a book by Baylis something about benzo recovery. It's been helpful. Maybe her name is bliss John? I forget..

Once u get the crossover settled on benzo then stable on gabapentin u can make a move from there

We are all rooting for you.

[[Be...]]

God, help you Chris.  I'm sorry you're suffering so much.  I wish the docs would have at least run the ANA antibody test.  I guess you can't have them do things they don't want.

[[Hi...]]

Its too late i has nasty nasy paradoxical reactions to kpin and no its a real hospital they are sending me to a psychfacility from here tomorrow or monday. They made me take 12mg of ativan today and its ganna rebound bad im really really scared i had to go back to ativan the kpin was way worse but no the joint pain must be from twd cuz i didnt have it today. Idk what they ganna do at psych ward..... they want to give me zyprexa and effexor i said no but i could not refuse the ativan because its all or nothing idk why i tried to explain im going to go back down tomorrow but its already going to have kindled me further please help they are making me worse i feel ok right now but once they come out of system and i go back to tolerance omg its insane idk what to do....

[[Hi...]]

Not sure whar to do they made me take 12 mg ativan yesterday i got it fixed so back to 2.5 3x a day but i only here fore a day or two then they sending me to a psych facility. I need help gettingboff this stuff but the symptoms are too kindled severe. Ther just want to stabilize me on other mrds which doesnt help benzo wd or tolerance .... i need to know what to do a psych facility will take all control away but probably make poly drugging worse but i need to get offthis stuff iinpatient theres no question about that.

 

How do you taper if you are indeed in severe tolerance withdrawl. That seems impossible

[[Co...]]

Not sure whar to do they made me take 12 mg ativan yesterday i got it fixed so back to 2.5 3x a day but i only here fore a day or two then they sending me to a psych facility. I need help gettingboff this stuff but the symptoms are too kindled severe. Ther just want to stabilize me on other mrds which doesnt help benzo wd or tolerance .... i need to know what to do a psych facility will take all control away but probably make poly drugging worse but i need to get offthis stuff iinpatient theres no question about that.

 

How do you taper if you are indeed in severe tolerance withdrawl. That seems impossible

 

I was switched to another benzo (flurazepam which has similar half life like valium) and seroquel. It did make the sx go away. I cannot say if i it was a great idea or not. I just now I could not taper from the xanax directly. You are way worse than me so I don't know.

Sending you positive vibes