Need help setting up LT Plan.. too much brain fog

[[In...]]

i know you can buy PG online but its "food grade" like for e-cigarettes. i went straight to the pharmacy and got pharmacy grade. told them i was using it to make lotion.

[[Sa...]]

Thanks Inkedgrrl!   

 

[[Sa...]]

SG57,  I need to get my 3 daily dose mg. equal again (my Dr. had 3 doses at .875mg , .75mg then .875mg ....and get used to liquid too. 

 

This (reply 5) was how you set it up when I used milk ... now will be using Vodka.

 

  Reply 5: What you could do is liquefy one of your .5mg pills to make a two-day supply of .25mg, then for each dose take .75mg dry and .083mg wet.  You could do this by putting the .5mg pill into 50ml liquid and split it in half and save 25ml for tomorrow.  Then take the remaining 25ml and split it evenly three ways, one for each dose.  The total for each dose would be .833mg K.

 

Prior was dosing 3x/day  75 mg. by pill ... and... 3x/day .083mg liquid

.....each dose totaled .833mg K

 

My question,  how much Vodka do I use to dissolve the .5mg K  before adding to the 50 ml of water?      Thanks!!

[[...]]

SG57,  I need to get my 3 daily dose mg. equal again (my Dr. had 3 doses at .875mg , .75mg then .875mg ....and get used to liquid too. 

 

This (reply 5) was how you set it up when I used milk ... now will be using Vodka.

 

  Reply 5: What you could do is liquefy one of your .5mg pills to make a two-day supply of .25mg, then for each dose take .75mg dry and .083mg wet.  You could do this by putting the .5mg pill into 50ml liquid and split it in half and save 25ml for tomorrow.  Then take the remaining 25ml and split it evenly three ways, one for each dose.  The total for each dose would be .833mg K.

 

Prior was dosing 3x/day  75 mg. by pill ... and... 3x/day .083mg liquid

.....each dose totaled .833mg K

 

My question,  how much Vodka do I use to dissolve the .5mg K  before adding to the 50 ml of water?      Thanks!!

 

It depends on the proof/ABV of the vodka.  If it is 80 proof/40% ABV then you would need 1ml bare minimum...but I would use 2ml or even 3ml.

[[Sa...]]

 

Yes, remove .6ml out of the total and toss it, then split what remains three ways.  On day 2 you remove an additional .6ml (so toss 1.2ml total).  Day 3 remove an additional .6ml (toss 1.8ml total), and so on.  I'd do this for at least two weeks or even longer.  The idea of starting here is to get used to tapering, gain confidence and have immediate success.

 

SG, The above reply back to me from you (reply 39)  where you state,  'I'd do this for at leat two weeks or longer' .....Where you meaning to hold for 2 weeks at a certain pull? 

 

Reason I'm asking as I had my Dr. visit and he's suggesting 10 day holds between pulls. Also gave me Incomplete directions for a taper. For the liquid portion hes wanting me to use .125 mg K and pull a 10th from that ... .0125.  the rest of dose will be in pill for.  I asked for  some more info, like math and how much liquid too use, how much each of my pill doses would be.....His reply, Is anyone In my family a math wizard? I've called him back, no reply yet.  From what little info I've provided, can you tell what % reduction he's making?  My daily total K is 2.5 mg  Also does this seems extremely slow taper.  Thanks.

[[...]]

 

Yes, remove .6ml out of the total and toss it, then split what remains three ways.  On day 2 you remove an additional .6ml (so toss 1.2ml total).  Day 3 remove an additional .6ml (toss 1.8ml total), and so on.  I'd do this for at least two weeks or even longer.  The idea of starting here is to get used to tapering, gain confidence and have immediate success.

 

SG, The above reply back to me from you (reply 39)  where you state,  'I'd do this for at leat two weeks or longer' .....Where you meaning to hold for 2 weeks at a certain pull? 

 

Reason I'm asking as I had my Dr. visit and he's suggesting 10 day holds between pulls. Also gave me Incomplete directions for a taper. For the liquid portion hes wanting me to use .125 mg K and pull a 10th from that ... .0125.  the rest of dose will be in pill for.  I asked for  some more info, like math and how much liquid too use, how much each of my pill doses would be.....His reply, Is anyone In my family a math wizard? I've called him back, no reply yet.  From what little info I've provided, can you tell what % reduction he's making?  My daily total K is 2.5 mg  Also does this seems extremely slow taper.  Thanks.

 

When we make the switch to liquid it often happens that we need to adjust to it.  That is why I said to hold until you feel ready to taper.

 

There is no scripted taper rate.  It is about finding the fastest rate that your body is okay with and not exceeding it.  There are two things that matter: the overall taper rate and the amount you cut at a time.  Whether you cut big and hold for 10 days or cut small every day, you can end up with the same overall drop rate.  But that does not mean they affect you the same.  If you cut too big you may end up too short and that in itself can cause damage.  Cutting small is important.  I would not stray too far from a few days of recovery time.  Cutting daily is optimal.  It allows you to recover within 24 hours of the cut so you are never too far from the benzo dose needed to keep your brain/CNS functioning normally.

 

If your doctor is saying to cut .0125mg and hold 10 days that is EXTREMELY slow at your dose... 1.4% a month.  You can do much more than that and still feel well.  Even 5% a month is a snail's pace for most.

[[Sa...]]

I was thinking my Dr. plan was too slow also...but my math skills are not the best. As my dose drops I will probably need math adjustment help/ guidance throughout to slow my taper

 

  What are you actually meaning by 'I would not stray too far from a few days of recovery time'?

This whole process scares me as I dont want to mess up the taper and experience debilitating wd.  Thank you much for your answers and patience.

[[Sa...]]

Do you mean hold every 3 days between pulls?

Im sorry having a difficult time grasping micro tapering and this whole process of finding my optimal wd speed. Im assuming most of it is trial and error?

[[...]]

I was thinking my Dr. plan was too slow also...but my math skills are not the best. As my dose drops I will probably need math adjustment help/ guidance throughout to slow my taper

 

  What are you actually meaning by 'I would not stray too far from a few days of recovery time'?

This whole process scares me as I dont want to mess up the taper and experience debilitating wd.  Thank you much for your answers and patience.

 

I just meant that the more short we are the more intense the symptoms.  I don't think it is a good idea to need weeks to recover from a cut as this puts more stress on the nervous system, and that is unnecessary.  But some people would rather feel the symptoms rise and fall.

[[...]]

Do you mean hold every 3 days between pulls?

Im sorry having a difficult time grasping micro tapering and this whole process of finding my optimal wd speed. Im assuming most of it is trial and error?

 

Cut every day as you feel well enough.  If you don't feel well enough to cut, then don't do it.  You can begin small at a rate you can handle.  Yes, it definitely is trial and error.

[[Su...]]

Sarah sunshine going through the same concerns.  Not good with maths even with a calculator you need to know what your doing.  It is hard.  Seems the4e are some that have no problem with this.

Just started daily liquid titration and lost.  Though someone did say I should pull out so much for 10 or 14 days.  How that is calculated not a clue.  Your not alone on not wanting to mess up the taper.

[[Sa...]]

Surviving benzo taper,  Thanks!  You are so correct. I've been reading/ researching a lot before I decided how to start my taper. In fact had changed my mind several times on different styles, %,  Have read of so many jumping into this with both feet and get slammed. But too if never try , get started, I won't know...( most of this is through trial and error as we all respond differently. ) I do know if in a pinch, all I have to do is ask and someone on Benzo buddies is there with support and advice, that I'm grateful for.  SG has  helped me tremendously with a world of valuable information.  Esp the math!!!!   

Hope your taper is going smoothly without much sx ?

[[Su...]]

Lol. Daily taper going good.  Real slow now.  Never really understood it but I'm dropping 0.13 per day V.  I'm finding I'm less down less symptoms less fear.  Sleeping irratic.  The important thing I find is not to miss a dose or be late this seems to throw me off track I'm using milk.  Just getting used to doing it up at night.

 

Well that's true latest. Everybody hang in.

[[Sa...]]

SG57,  I'm totally confused and could use some advice. I had my appointment with my "benzo" wise Dr. yesterday and for most part he is. and I'm thankful I have  one who that to some degree I'm finding out follows Ashton manual.  My problem is, he is now saying my reducing 2.5mg K  at 5% could be at a faster rate . That I should, need to be farther along.  Is he correct? Could I or do most bezo users start faster taper and fine tune it according to the CNS Sx?

 

This whole taper thing boggles my mind.... How does one decide where, what amt. to start tapering at?  The only thing I know is no more than 10% of daily total per month s recommended.  Is there no magic formula , just pick a % , start taper then go from there ? 

 

Originally you did suggest a 7.5% reduction  to start with.  My Dr. Wants me to now try reducing at  .006 for a month then if feel ok , try .007mg. And so forth ....but pay attention to SX.  Is that a resonable request from him ? Is this how most benzo users taper?  Sounds like he's  trying to find that balance between fast enough but without causing CNS damage.....  Thank you for any advice , input

[[Sa...]]

And  too, how much , how many SX should one tapering experience.... (if any) before saying,  ok I need to hold, or cut back.

 

Guess I'm re asking the same ? .... is, should  tapering be sx free. And are any sx a sign of CNS suffering, damage?  After I told the Dr. I'm fairing well , am moderately functional with the minimal sx is when he suggested to taper at the .006 instead of .004

[[...]]

SG57,  I'm totally confused and could use some advice. I had my appointment with my "benzo" wise Dr. yesterday and for most part he is. and I'm thankful I have  one who that to some degree I'm finding out follows Ashton manual.  My problem is, he is now saying my reducing 2.5mg K  at 5% could be at a faster rate . That I should, need to be farther along.  Is he correct? Could I or do most bezo users start faster taper and fine tune it according to the CNS Sx?

 

This whole taper thing boggles my mind.... How does one decide where, what amt. to start tapering at?  The only thing I know is no more than 10% of daily total per month s recommended.  Is there no magic formula , just pick a % , start taper then go from there ? 

 

Originally you did suggest a 7.5% reduction  to start with.  My Dr. Wants me to now try reducing at  .006 for a month then if feel ok , try .007mg. And so forth ....but pay attention to SX.  Is that a resonable request from him ? Is this how most benzo users taper?  Sounds like he's  trying to find that balance between fast enough but without causing CNS damage.....  Thank you for any advice , input

 

And  too, how much , how many SX should one tapering experience.... (if any) before saying,  ok I need to hold, or cut back.

 

Guess I'm re asking the same ? .... is, should  tapering be sx free. And are any sx a sign of CNS suffering, damage?  After I told the Dr. I'm fairing well , am moderately functional with the minimal sx is when he suggested to taper at the .006 instead of .004

 

That's great news about your doctor.  Wow, a doctor who advises a symptom-based taper.  It is so refreshing to hear a doctor say those things and to be aware of the problem and how to taper.  He is mostly on target with his comments.  The patient should be in control and not be forced and it sounds like he is doing that.  It sounds like he sees you can go faster and is urging you, but not forcing you.

 

I'm also glad you feel well.  The taper is yours, not his, so I would resist complying to the doctors wishes, or anyone elses, unless you agree.  As for how much to cut per month, there is no number.  The amount you cut is up to your body - it will tell you.  It could be any amount, but between 5-20% a month is common.  Some here on BB are below and above that range.

 

If you don't know where to start searching, I usually suggest trying 8% a month (I used to say 7.5%).  I forget how you settled on 5%.  Then, as the doctor suggested, you can test higher and higher rates until you feel it is too much.  OR...you can take the slow boat and not taper at the edge.  It is totally up to you.  It is your taper.

 

Some people want to try for staying near symptom-free.  Others want to get it over and are more willing to suffer a bit, but really they don't end up being done as those who reach zero still symptomatic need months or even years to finish recovering.  It can seem counter intuitive, but the fastest way to health is to go slow and avoid symptoms.  I think this is due to the fact that pushing causes a second type of more harsh and long-lasting damage involving the glutamate system, whereas tapering fixes the GABA system damage.  If you avoid this second type of damage you save a lot of time (and misery).

 

My opinion of symptoms is that they are a sign that the CNS/brain is struggling and not able to function normally, and that they should not be accepted beyond occasional mild symptoms.  I think being totally symptom free is a tall order and not worth trying to accomplish.  A better guide IMO is quality of life: if you can live a normal life with mild symptoms here and there, that is a successful taper.  Sorry for the book.

[[Sa...]]

Hi SG, Thank you for taking your time to reply and for the information about CNS struggling and sx.  Yes I definitely want to stay closer to near sx free, functional as possible. Partly due to my remembering how being CT off of phenobarbital  after the birth of my last child in 1994 felt. I remember that horror only to well  and back then there were no( or only in UK) support groups as this. I had no idea for 9 months what was happening to me 3 days after delivery. I was fortunate to at 9 months find Dr. Breggins book, Toxic Psychiatry. A section mentioned, tranquilizers, and Dr. Ashton manual .....I finally had my answer. Took me 2 years to heal.

 

I'm concerned about my  Dr. this visit as he seemed " frustrated" said that if I'm  only having minimal sx told me my .004 was too slow.  Maybe it is?  He told me that it needs to and can be faster. He hasn't  formally  given  me a deadline for completion but now I have a fear he may. He did not ask me to wd at .006, I was told to (try) then if sx  okay, go to .007 ..... I'm  sure it is my remembering the severe CT that is  fueling the fear of sx.  Yes he wants me to pay attention to SX and if they increase then to hold until they're  tolerable.    You did recommend 7.5 %  I asked if I could try 5% , (fear) you said sure.

 

If I do go to .006 and the sx become to much, what does one do? Drop back to .004 or hold were they are until stable then resume? Too would my SX after increasing ever become minimal again? I know difficult to know for sure. I would love to get off of theses yesterday ....ASAP.  One thing I do not want to do is be all over the place with my taper.

 

Thanks again, for the time and willingness to share experience. As much as a benzo wise Dr. knows, they still do not know like one who has gone through this.  BLESSINGS to you.

[[...]]

He sounds like a good doctor, but I think you said it: he has never been through it.  If he had he would understand that trying to impose his will on you is not a good idea.  Don't let him push you around.  It is your taper and this is not about drug addiction or dependence.  There is no hurry and 5% will get you there.  People stay on these drugs for life, so what is his problem with a few more months?

 

Honestly, I suggested 7.5% as I felt it was a safe place to begin...almost certain to be okay.  And you probably can do more than that.  So I can see why he would try to coax you to do more.  But that is not the point.  The point is it is your taper.  You are the one who will pay.  He should be happy you feel well and are moving down.

 

Yes, if you run into symptoms, nip them in the bud by holding.  You're in a good position in that you are not in the weeds.  It can be trickier to get rid of symptoms if they are entrenched, but from where you are it is easier to manage things.  Simply don't allow symptoms.  You have control.

[[Sa...]]

SG, One more clarification,  If I do decide to go with .007 and once that amount started I run into " difficult" sx.. is going back down to .004 discouraged, off the table. That at that point would be up dosing? 

 

  So IOW I just hold at that particular dose until feeling stable then continue taperin at .007

 

      Thank you

[[...]]

You can go back to .004mg at any time.  Any cut below your highest cut is also a valid cut.  You can also hold at any time.  You can even throw in hold days or cut smaller just because you feel like it.  If you want to just stop and take some time off, that is also fine.  There is nothing rigid about any of this.  Restoring things back to normal is a slow process and the body likes having plenty of time to make the needed adjustments.  There is kind of this narrow range between holding and cutting too fast where the body is okay with what is going on.  The brain/CNS can function normally in this range while it also fixes the GABA system, yet does not trigger the awful glutamate problems.  You're in this range right now - you're removing the drug yet feeling well.  Your body is okay with it.

[[Sa...]]

Thank you SG, Its reassuring to have others to bounce these wd taper questions off of. I'm grateful for the time you give. 

......... Hope this finds you well. 

[[Su...]]

Hi everybody!  Hope your day is good.

Got a question ive hit a wall affter 18 days of tapering 0.13mg a day

I am holding there.  Wondering if the figures need to reworked.  I'm on 11.68mg.V..What could i try dropping next.

No I find the math boggling . Thanks to all who pass it on to people having trouble working it all out.

Yes I like the idea of being able to function.   

[[...]]

Hi everybody!  Hope your day is good.

Got a question ive hit a wall affter 18 days of tapering 0.13mg a day

I am holding there.  Wondering if the figures need to reworked.  I'm on 11.68mg.V..What could i try dropping next.

No I find the math boggling . Thanks to all who pass it on to people having trouble working it all out.

Yes I like the idea of being able to function. 

 

.13mg a day at your dose is quite a clip...33% a month.  How did you react to that?

[[Sa...]]

HI,  SG.... After mixing my liquid dose, I'm seeing sediment at the bottom of jar.

 

I mix my liquid portion, .5mg K with 3ml vodka, (let sit  8 + hours with lid in a dark cupboard) also tilt it so pill stays submerged. Then after 8hrs. + add my 47 ml water.  then, I shake, divide the 50 ml into 2- 25ml. doses. One of the jars always has more of the sediment in the bottom than the other one.

 

  Do you know ?  Does vodka completely disolve  the K, or is it still considered a suspension, just like using water?  Is sediment actual K ....or pill filler, or outer pill covering.  It's a bit concerning, if it's K as then one of the days I'm under dosed. Might not matter at lower pulls but at higher pulls, I'd think it would.

Would it help to crush the pill before adding the vodka?

 

Also, I've been reducing at 5% (pull .4ml) On day 9 now. Minimal sx just starting ( last 2 days) minor sx, skin burning 1-3 hour before next dose and slight tolerable anxierty. I'm wanting to increase my tapering  amount to 6% of 2.5mg. , which would be a pull of .5ml

I'm at a pull of 3.6ml today, (6-23) so tomorrow would I pull 4.1ml?  The 3.6ml I'm at now + .5 ml. 

 

Too,  since I've just started experiencing sx, the last 2 days, though minor ....would it be better to give it a few more days before increasing the taper amount, to give my CNS a chance to catch up or see if the sx resolve/ increase?  Unbelievable,  to be having sx when reducing sooo little.

 

 

        Thanks so much?

[[...]]

HI,  SG.... After mixing my liquid dose, I'm seeing sediment at the bottom of jar.

 

I mix my liquid portion, .5mg K with 3ml vodka, (let sit  8 + hours with lid in a dark cupboard) also tilt it so pill stays submerged. Then after 8hrs. + add my 47 ml water.  then, I shake, divide the 50 ml into 2- 25ml. doses. One of the jars always has more of the sediment in the bottom than the other one.

 

  Do you know ?  Does vodka completely disolve  the K, or is it still considered a suspension, just like using water?  Is sediment actual K ....or pill filler, or outer pill covering.  It's a bit concerning, if it's K as then one of the days I'm under dosed. Might not matter at lower pulls but at higher pulls, I'd think it would.

Would it help to crush the pill before adding the vodka?

 

Also, I've been reducing at 5% (pull .4ml) On day 9 now. Minimal sx just starting ( last 2 days) minor sx, skin burning 1-3 hour before next dose and slight tolerable anxierty. I'm wanting to increase my tapering  amount to 6% of 2.5mg. , which would be a pull of .5ml

I'm at a pull of 3.6ml today, (6-23) so tomorrow would I pull 4.1ml?  The 3.6ml I'm at now + .5 ml. 

 

Too,  since I've just started experiencing sx, the last 2 days, though minor ....would it be better to give it a few more days before increasing the taper amount, to give my CNS a chance to catch up or see if the sx resolve/ increase?  Unbelievable,  to be having sx when reducing sooo little.

 

 

        Thanks so much?

 

When the pill is in the vodka it should break apart into a zillion tiny pieces.  If this is happening the K is dissolving.  If this is not happening you'll need to crush the pill.  .5mg K pills are more than 99% filler so what you see is filler - the K is dissolving.

 

I'm surprised you feel symptoms already as you have only removed 1.5% of your dose and have had nine days to adjust.  I would not move up to 6% yet.  I think it is important to do at least a two week test, bare minimum, for each cut before moving higher...and three weeks or even a full month is a good idea.  Remember, the idea is to feel well, not get off, and it is important to preserve that at all costs.  This is too long of a haul to do otherwise.  Also, it is very important to stay out of the weeds!  Once you get into harsher symptoms it can be a frustrating struggle to unsnarl them.  It is best to never let them get started and nip them in the bud, only accepting mild occasional symptoms.