Need help setting up LT Plan.. too much brain fog

[[Sa...]]

Hi, I'm starting day 7 of adjusting to switching to LT (milk) of K.  Something I noticed while reading through posts, I've not seen anyone (yet) that uses both pill and liquid in the same dose. Doesn't or couldn't that create the liquid portion to absorb into system faster than the pill form, therefore not having an actual initial dose of ..083 in my system?  Right now is not causing a lot of interdose WD BUT later when cutting will I use both pill and liquid at each dose?  ANd too did you dose that way? How much longer do I need to hold at adjusting to the liquid K dosing before starting my cuts? (day 7)  Thank you! 

[[...]]

People do it both ways - it is a preference.  It really makes no difference if it is all liquid or part liquid.  I doubt there would be much difference in absorption rate as the pill breaks up pretty quickly when it gets wet in the mouth and stomach.  I dosed by liquifying one pill and keeping the others dry.

 

As for your adjustment period, it can take up to 10 days to two weeks for symptoms to show if they are going to, but usually they show before that.  I think beyond a week it is up to you to decide based on how you feel.  You are the best judge as to if you are ready to taper.

 

If you are getting interdose symptoms you may want to consider dividing your dose four ways and dosing every six hours instead of eight.

[[Sa...]]

Just double check, If I dose 4 x/day then each dose would be 6.2 ml?

 

Right now it's,

.833x3=2.499  2.499 divided by 3doses = 8.3 ml  SO 2.499 divided by 4doses = 6.2

 

 

Also by changing the times /day would I have to start the 10 days see what happens over?  I understand slow and watch/see what happens is best just eager to get going to get off K.  Than you!

[[...]]

That's right.  8.33mlx3=25ml.  Divide that into four and it is 6.25ml per dose, six hours apart.  You would not have to begin the waiting period over.  I'd just switch to four doses and continue on based on how you feel.

[[Sa...]]

Hi,  I need help setting up a taper plan. I take 2.5 mg K /day in 3 doses. @ 7a 3p 11p. Have .5mg tabs.               

 

I'm on day 10 of switching/adjusting to taking a 1/2 liquid (milk), half pill dose.

I'm think am ready to start a taper though have a question. Is anyone "totally" SX free during tapering? Right now they're is some tolerable skin burning off/on but had that before switching to partial liquid, some mild irritability. 

 

Something I forgot to tell, I'd been on .5 to 1 mg of K for 15 years and never going over that amount until Jan 3 this year. I was going to be out of my RX. 2 days before next refill date, so cut back 2 of days doses to .25/ day or (crumbs). Never had Sx before, could skip 2-3 days w/o taking any.  Not any more!!! Experienced my first pronounced SX ever. All anxiety, sweating, mouth tingling... headache, palps, nausea. Got Dr. to refill early. The Sx became more severe over the days , so I gradually increased dose until realizing now at 2.5mg. I know now should have just toughed it out until my reg. dose built back up in my system.

 

Since it's not been too long (26 days) with the added 1.5mg K can I WD the extra 1.5 off a bit quicker than usual?

 

Is it important to try and keep each of my 3 dose as close to being equal as possible?      Sorry so long , Thank you for the help with the math.

 

 

 

Since I've only been on the increased amount     

[[...]]

Totally symptom free?  This question gets asked a lot.  I'd think it would be very difficult to achieve.  But are there people who live normal lives and are not really affected much by the taper?  Yes, there are a lot.

 

Good question on your dose.  You spent 15 years at or below 1mg, then you cut to .25mg for a few days, and in response to symptoms you updosed to 2.5mg and have been there for 27 days.  Are you dependent on the extra 1.5mg now?  I don't know.  People can become dependent in a few weeks, but it does not always happen that quick.  The only way to know is to try.

 

Is it important to keep doses equal?  Really it is a question about interdose symptoms.  The more uneven it is the more you will be nudged toward interdose symptoms.  But if you really don't need three doses, or have lots of leeway, it won't matter.

[[Sa...]]

Lot's of leeway, not sure what you mean,  leeway in amount of pills I have? 

 

In January, when taking my 3 doses as  7a .75mg, 3p .75mg. then 11p 1mg , yes was beginning to have interdose WD, esp. between 11p and 7am dose. So guess I'd like to keep them as equal as possible

 

How difficult is it to set up a taper at 2.5 mg? the .5 seems to add an odd equation to the dividing or each taper will be changing. ?  I'm confused at visualizing this.

 

Will you help me with setting up (slow to start) a taper?  Still not sure how to. My SX are comfortable enough to try.   

[[...]]

Sure, I'll help.  Sometime the dosing and the pills don't work out just right, but there is always a way to do it.  For 2.5mg you could liquify 1mg pills and take 1.5mg dry or you could liquify .5mg and take 2mg dry, but the dry would be a little off.  Or you could even liquify everything.  The more you liquify the more liquid you need.  I think my choice would be to liquify 1mg and take 1.5mg dry.  I'd put 1mg into either 50 or 100ml liquid to make easy measurement on a 1ml syringe.

[[Sa...]]

Hi, Thanks!  I'll use 100ml milk.  Does it matter the amount of liquid I use alter the dose strength after the 1ml pull? or just more or less liquid to drink?

 

Also for the last 10 days we upped my 3 doses from .75mg, .75mg, and 1mg each to .833mg each to even them out (7a 3p 11p).  Prior to that I'd been dosing at the .75mg, .75mg, 1mg.  Now I'll be going back down to the lower doses (a .083 decrease) again following this new schedule, which along with a 1 ml pull has potential to cause interdose WD.  My ? should I readjust a few days to the 2 lowered doses .75mg, 7a.. .75mg,3p? 

 

Also when I start to pull do I pull 1 ml first day, then 2 ml second day and  so on and so on....  How much K is in each pull wasted?

 

Is a 1ml pull out of a 1mg. K in 100ml solution a small amount?    Thank you

 

[[Sa...]]

I need to make sure i understand....

 

If I use 1mg in 100ml it's .01mg/ml

and..... each ml will contain .01 K ?

[[...]]

I need to make sure i understand....

 

If I use 1mg in 100ml it's .01mg/ml

and..... each ml will contain .01 K ?

 

Yes, that's right.  I've lost track...how are you dosing now?  How many mgs in how much milk?

[[Sa...]]

Now I'm dosing 3x/day using a  .5mg in 50ml milk 

 

I dose 3x/day ... each dose is .75mg dry plus .083milk  equal .833 each dose.

 

if using the same mg K in a solution does the amount of liquid used/chosen change the potency? 

 

IOW  Is 1mg K in 50ml milk equal to the same amt. as 1mg K in 100ml milk? after withdrawing the 1ml out of both would the amount of K in the solution be the same? 

[[...]]

Now I'm dosing 3x/day using a  .5mg in 50ml milk 

 

I dose 3x/day ... each dose is .75mg dry plus .083milk  equal .833 each dose.

 

if using the same mg K in a solution does the amount of liquid used/chosen change the potency? 

 

IOW  Is 1mg K in 50ml milk equal to the same amt. as 1mg K in 100ml milk? after withdrawing the 1ml out of both would the amount of K in the solution be the same?

 

Okay, I see.  I was getting confused, but you are making a two day supply with the milk, right?  So you take 2.25mg dry and 25ml milk each day, both split three ways.  That's a good way to do it.  No need to change a thing.  Sorry, I was forgetting we had set it up this way, you are fine and do not need to change anything to begin cutting.

 

You liquid strength is .01mg/ml.  How do you want to begin?  7.5% a month would be "very careful."  A daily cut of .006mg (.6ml) would do this.  It is a place where you can get used to tapering and hopefully have immediate success.

[[Sa...]]

Yes I take 2.25mg dry and 25ml milk each day, both split three ways.

 

So I reduce .6ml out of the 25 ml jar then split the remainder between the 3 jars/doses?

 

So do I the second day reduce by the same .6ml ?  And if so how long at .6ml 2 weeks or play it by how I feel?  OR Is the second day reduction 1.2 ml, the third day 1.8ml, so on.  Thank you!  :-)

[[...]]

Yes I take 2.25mg dry and 25ml milk each day, both split three ways.

 

So I reduce .6ml out of the 25 ml jar then split the remainder between the 3 jars/doses?

 

So do I the second day reduce by the same .6ml ?  And if so how long at .6ml 2 weeks or play it by how I feel?  OR Is the second day reduction 1.2 ml, the third day 1.8ml, so on.  Thank you!  :-)

 

Yes, remove .6ml out of the total and toss it, then split what remains three ways.  On day 2 you remove an additional .6ml (so toss 1.2ml total).  Day 3 remove an additional .6ml (toss 1.8ml total), and so on.  I'd do this for at least two weeks or even longer.  The idea of starting here is to get used to tapering, gain confidence and have immediate success.

[[Sa...]]

Okay, I see.  I was getting confused, but you are making a two day supply with the milk, right?  So you take 2.25mg dry and 25ml milk each day, both split three ways.  That's a good way to do it.  No need to change a thing.  Sorry, I was forgetting we had set it up this way, you are fine and do not need to change anything to begin cutting.

 

You liquid strength is .01mg/ml.  How do you want to begin?  7.5% a month would be "very careful."  A daily cut of .006mg (.6ml) would do this.  It is a place where you can get used to tapering and hopefully have immediate success.

 

Could you show me at 7.5% a month how you came up with a daily cut of.006 (.6ml)

 

Would you figure out a 5% cut for me ?  5% to start and if in 5 days all okay I'll move it to 7.5% ?  A bit scared, but I'm going to do this!!!

[[...]]

Could you show me at 7.5% a month how you came up with a daily cut of.006 (.6ml)

 

Would you figure out a 5% cut for me ?  5% to start and if in 5 days all okay I'll move it to 7.5% ?  A bit scared, but I'm going to do this!!!

 

You don't have to start at 7.5%.  5% is fine...even more careful.  Here's how I got these, two cuts...

 

7.5%/month: 7.5% of 2.5mg is .1875mg (.075 x 2.5) divided by 30 days in a month = .00625mg/day, round down to .006mg (.6ml/day)

 

5%/month: 5% of 2.5mg is .125mg (.05 x 2.5) divided by 30 days in a month = .00417mg/day, round down to .004mg (.4ml/day)

[[Sa...]]

Thank you for the explanations.  Is the taper I'm doing considered "micro" tapering?

All of the different ways to taper and terminology can boggle one's brain.

[[...]]

Yes, some would call it a microtaper.  Others would call it a daily taper, and still other would call it a daily microtaper...all the same thing.  You're just cutting small enough to recover from the cut within the same day the cut is made so you keep in step with healing.

[[Sa...]]

Hi, I've been doing some calculating and w/d at 5% is going to take 4-5 years?  or way longer than I want. I understand it's not about what I want but how my system responds to cuts. I want to be safe but not drag it out unnecessarily.

 

What is the highest % I can taper at a time, 10?  Would 10 % be to much for me to start with or should I go with the 5% for 10 days , see how goes, then progress gradually until I'm at 10% cuts? If it's okay to enquire, How were you able to cut 4mg K in 30 months?

 

Is there a way to figure how much of the K is in .4ml pull?  Is it miniscule?

 

I' not sure my Dr. is going to go along with this slow cut, He wants me back down to my original of .50mg, 1mg dose/day but he's done it by cutting off .5mg in one cut, by writing my Rx. for only enough pills for 2 mg /day plus 30 for leeway. I'm not going to cut that way obviously, explained to him I'd like to be functional while cutting... and that I want off completely. He stated, I'll never be able to stop them completely. That's when I shut up came home and reviewed and looking for Dr.'s that do understand slow taper. Not many!!    Thank you.

[[...]]

It is so frustrating and dangerous that doctors don't realize that these drugs can cause damage when removed too quickly.  Psych drugs are not like other drugs.  It is much more than temporary discomfort like typical drug withdrawal.  It is damage and it needs to be reversed slowly or the damage gets much worse.

 

You put .5mg into 50ml, right?  That mean each 1ml=.010mg, so .4ml=.004mg.

 

Forget about percentages.  That is just a way to give and idea of how much to cut.  Think about it: you will not taper too slow since you can choose to go faster if you feel well.  You will not go too fast because you can choose to go slower or hold if you feel sick.  You are going to taper at the rate your body heals at and that is already determined and you do not have a say in it.  You can only find it and not exceed it.  It is not hard to do.

 

I've suggested a starting point of 7.5% a month.  That is all that it is - a starting point.  A place to get you going and hopefully give you confidence in the process and immediate success, which I think is important.  From there you can adjust upwards, and that likely will happen.  This will not take you 4-5 years.  Three years is a very long taper and it is likely you will come in between 2-3 years, but no one knows for sure.  You might finish in less than two years or it could take four.  IMO taper length is determined by two things: your level of dependency (what percentage of receptors need to be reversed) and how fast a healer you are (how fast you can reverse them).

 

For example, let's say of your 100% GABAa receptors you need to reverse 60% of them.  If you heal at 2% a month that would be a 30 month taper (since 2% x 30 = 60%).  But if you can do 4% a month it would only take 15 months (since 4% x 15 = 60%).

 

OTOH, if you are a slow healer, but not heavily dependent, you might only be able to manage 2% a month, but only have to reverse 30% of your receptors.  In this case you would be done in 15 months (since 2% x 15 = 30%).

[[Sa...]]

I follow you.  But do the receptors even start healing while tapering? because they are still being dosed with Benzos. I thought (likely misunderstood) they didn't heal until completely off?  Thank you again, A lot of information to grasp, but thankfully so many on BB, Yourself included that give time and explanations. Very grateful!

 

I started the 5% taper this morning. 

 

 

[[bu...]]

When you take a benzo, it potentiates the GABA response.  Because of the body's natural homeostasis, the body responds by down-regulating the GABA receptors.  The more benzo you add, the more the body down-regulates the receptors.

 

When you begin to decrease your benzo dose, the body responds (homeostasis again) by up-regulating, or restoring the GABA receptor system.  Again the homeostasis will continously re-balance the receptor system to more closely match the effect of the current level of benzo.

 

This is the whole logic behind tapering any drug...the body slowly responds the declining level of a drug.    It seems like folks tend to get hung up on the term "heal".  But the simple fact is the body does adjust to the change benzo level as your tapering...the GABA system begins to up-regulate, or restore itself.  I guess your definition of "healing" whether that's the same thing.

[[...]]

I follow you.  But do the receptors even start healing while tapering? because they are still being dosed with Benzos. I thought (likely misunderstood) they didn't heal until completely off?  Thank you again, A lot of information to grasp, but thankfully so many on BB, Yourself included that give time and explanations. Very grateful!

 

I started the 5% taper this morning.

 

I'll just reinforce builder's answer by saying YES! they do heal as you go.  Not only do they heal, if you do it right you can follow the healing down and not feel much in the way of symptoms.  It is often said that symptoms are a sign of healing.  I could not disagree more.  Symptoms are a sign that you CNS is struggling.  OTOH, having no symptoms at a lower dose IS absolutely a sign of healing.  Your CNS is functioning normally on less drug...that's healing and is the goal of a taper.

[[Sa...]]

Hi builder, Yes up-regulate is what I was meaning by healing. THank you to both you and SG57 for the excellent explanations.  I'll pay attention to what my body, brain is telling me about my taper and not a calendar.