Insomniac support group

[[me...]]

LL--I would take whatever precious sleep I could get! Our bodies are so fickle with it.

 

Well the estrogen experiment was a disaster. Even though I took just 1/4 of a very small dose of topical estrogen, I didn't sleep at all last night. Wired, heart palps, a bit of tinnitus, and my stomach is also in an uproar. Hopefully it wears off somewhat today.

 

It seems like everything I try to improve my sleep backfires, I'm just so done with trying anything. 

[[Lo...]]

Hi All, I am looking for your advice re napping.

 

I am currently traveling on the east coast of Canada after a wedding for my nephew yesterday. .The  travel and jet lag add to the challenge of getting off Zopiclone. Also my friend that I am traveling with snores!!! Big challenge!!!

 

I am certainly sleep deprived these days and find myself about to fall asleep @4 p.m or so and often again @8 p.m if I am not active. It is really hard to stay awake!!! Strange for me.

 

I typically go to sleep around midnight with some difficulty and sleep til 5 or 6 or 7. Should I allow myself to fall asleep during the earlier sleepy times or will this just detract from the night time quality and length of sleep?

 

I generally sleep 6-7 hours but less on this trip.

 

Thanks for any advice.  LL

 

 

Hi LL,

 

I don't have a lot to say about this other than, if it were me, I would try to stay awake, so I could sleep at night. Although, I have stayed awake and not slept at night, so Sorry I'm not much help.  CeCe   

 

That has always been my belief too. Again today I am fighting off going to sleep - 6:30 p.m. As well as earlier. I read a book on sleep where the researcher talked about sleep pressure building throughout the day. Very important to not lower that sleep pressure.

Meanwhile my friend is having a nap! She can fall asleep in a minute! Anywhere...anytime! LL

 

[[Lo...]]

LL--I would take whatever precious sleep I could get! Our bodies are so fickle with it.

 

Well the estrogen experiment was a disaster. Even though I took just 1/4 of a very small dose of topical estrogen, I didn't sleep at all last night. Wired, heart palps, a bit of tinnitus, and my stomach is also in an uproar. Hopefully it wears off somewhat today.

 

It seems like everything I try to improve my sleep backfires, I'm just so done with trying anything. 

Dear Meowie, I so sorry that the estrogen experiment was a disaster. I wonder what mechanism was at work here? Why would estrogen do that? Any chance it was from some other variable?

I hope that your nervous system settled down today.  LL

 

[[me...]]

Unfortunately I am absolutely sure it is the estrogen. I had the exact same reaction before (including the intestinal stuff), but I was able to "cover" the insomnia with sleep drugs, so it wasn't as obvious. Progesterone also gives me very bad insomnia now (it was a godsend before menopause). It's like my body is going "what the heck is this STUFF!" Apparently hormones are no longer an option.

 

The half-life of estradiol is only about 13 hours, so I am crossing my fingers that it is out of my system tonight. Laid down earlier and nothing, just more heart palps and hot flashes. I feel like I got run over with a garbage truck, backed up and run over again.

[[Ce...]]

Hi All, I am looking for your advice re napping.

 

I am currently traveling on the east coast of Canada after a wedding for my nephew yesterday. .The  travel and jet lag add to the challenge of getting off Zopiclone. Also my friend that I am traveling with snores!!! Big challenge!!!

 

I am certainly sleep deprived these days and find myself about to fall asleep @4 p.m or so and often again @8 p.m if I am not active. It is really hard to stay awake!!! Strange for me.

 

I typically go to sleep around midnight with some difficulty and sleep til 5 or 6 or 7. Should I allow myself to fall asleep during the earlier sleepy times or will this just detract from the night time quality and length of sleep?

 

I generally sleep 6-7 hours but less on this trip.

 

Thanks for any advice.  LL

 

 

Hi LL,

 

I don't have a lot to say about this other than, if it were me, I would try to stay awake, so I could sleep at night. Although, I have stayed awake and not slept at night, so Sorry I'm not much help.  CeCe   

 

That has always been my belief too. Again today I am fighting off going to sleep - 6:30 p.m. As well as earlier. I read a book on sleep where the researcher talked about sleep pressure building throughout the day. Very important to not lower that sleep pressure.

Meanwhile my friend is having a nap! She can fall asleep in a minute! Anywhere...anytime! LL

 

 

I have a bf like that! I'm so jealous! I'd give anything to be able to just nod off anytime, anywhere....

[[wa...]]

So sorry, Meow -- that you have to go through this with the estrogen.  I'm experimenting, too, with it but nothing happening.  But I am still on the L -- And my scale broke!.  So I am guesstimating dose now.  Yikes.  Luckily -- I am slithering down and just gutting it out.  I think i am at just above 1mg now.  My guesstimate is on the low side so that i won't be updosing.  Weds I get my new scale.  Trying not to freak and take whatever sleep I can and accept it.  WBB

[[Co...]]

had again two awful nights in a row. (complicated with pelvis pain) this sucks.

[[Fa...]]

I got a form of total insomnia after taking an antibiotic (Levaquin) in April, and that's why I was put on Klonopin before (lost almost immediately its efficacy) and Trazodone and Klonopin later. I went totally sleepless for five days, and my psychiatrist just said 'That's impossible, you should be allucinating and you're incredibly lucid instead!'.

But well, it's exactly what happened.

 

I'm just afraid my old problem will come back as I go ahead with my tapering. I just can't get any sleep naturally.  My mind won't switch off nor relax.

 

I'm planning to try Seroquel for one single night tonight, to see if I can sporadically use it as sleep aid when Trazodone doesn't kick in. I hope this won't mess up with my taper, it's just a test with a tiny 12.5 mgs.

[[MT...]]

Yeah Fading, I was taught that same thing in school--that when folks go without that much sleep they hallucinate and look a certain way. In general that's been accurate but not for folks in benzo wd. I know some others going through it and have seen them sleepless for days and weeks at a time with no hallucinations and often even looking fine. I used to be puzzled by how normal I could look and act but usually felt like hell from the sleep deprivation. I did have some auditory hallucinations in the beginning (heard music, sound of people talking but couldn't make out words) some nights but since then I've gone without sleep for very long periods without any kind of hallucination. Getting over the dread of not sleeping is a huge part of the battle here. I save some activities I enjoy for night time when I'm not sleeping--books I particularly enjoy, fun reading on Imgur.com, etc. No work. I think work could be useful if it bores you into a restful state but that's not how my mind works--it makes it more agitated and alert when I try it at night.

 

Still, you can do this. You're stronger than you know.

[[Co...]]

Yeah Fading, I was taught that same thing in school--that when folks go without that much sleep they hallucinate and look a certain way. In general that's been accurate but not for folks in benzo wd. I know some others going through it and have seen them sleepless for days and weeks at a time with no hallucinations and often even looking fine. I used to be puzzled by how normal I could look and act but usually felt like hell from the sleep deprivation. I did have some auditory hallucinations in the beginning (heard music, sound of people talking but couldn't make out words) some nights but since then I've gone without sleep for very long periods without any kind of hallucination. Getting over the dread of not sleeping is a huge part of the battle here. I save some activities I enjoy for night time when I'm not sleeping--books I particularly enjoy, fun reading on Imgur.com, etc. No work. I think work could be useful if it bores you into a restful state but that's not how my mind works--it makes it more agitated and alert when I try it at night.

 

Still, you can do this. You're stronger than you know.

 

I think we get a super light type of sleep (if you manage to stay in bed of course) that keeps us a bit functional. And otherwise we get extra adrenal hormones that keep us functional maybe that's why we don't sleep?

I just noticed that sometimes I think I'm awake but my baby starts crying and it's like I shift from another reality so it's probably a super light type of sleep.

[[Lo...]]

Hi All, I am looking for your advice re napping.

 

I am currently traveling on the east coast of Canada after a wedding for my nephew yesterday. .The  travel and jet lag add to the challenge of getting off Zopiclone. Also my friend that I am traveling with snores!!! Big challenge!!!

 

I am certainly sleep deprived these days and find myself about to fall asleep @4 p.m or so and often again @8 p.m if I am not active. It is really hard to stay awake!!! Strange for me.

 

I typically go to sleep around midnight with some difficulty and sleep til 5 or 6 or 7. Should I allow myself to fall asleep during the earlier sleepy times or will this just detract from the night time quality and length of sleep?

 

I generally sleep 6-7 hours but less on this trip.

 

Thanks for any advice.  LL

 

 

Hi LL,

 

I don't have a lot to say about this other than, if it were me, I would try to stay awake, so I could sleep at night. Although, I have stayed awake and not slept at night, so Sorry I'm not much help.  CeCe   

 

That has always been my belief too. Again today I am fighting off going to sleep - 6:30 p.m. As well as earlier. I read a book on sleep where the researcher talked about sleep pressure building throughout the day. Very important to not lower that sleep pressure.

Meanwhile my friend is having a nap! She can fall asleep in a minute! Anywhere...anytime! LL

Just as an encouragement to you fellow insomniacs...I have been sleeping very well the past few days. Touch wood! My travel companion did not snore as much and the past 3 days I have had my own room. I've been sleeping 7 1/2, 8 or more hours! Glorious! Still there are times in the daytime that I am fighting off sleep! Very unlike me.

As much as there are challenges with travel - time zones, snoring partner, lots of cracks of light etc - I find that I am more relaxed and therefore my sleep is much better. There are none of the usual concerns that I have at home. Nothing much demanding my attention.

 

I wish that some of you could just escape to a cabin by the lake and gear down. It takes awhile!

 

Now I am back home and about to gear up to have lots of company for the next 3 weeks and then its back into the fall routine. It will be interesting to see how this affects my sleep.

LL

[[MT...]]

I agree Corsair. It's amazing what the brain can do to keep us alive. It's not always pretty but it gets the job done. I notice that when the people around me miss sleep they suffer far more debilitating effects than I do--not that this isn't super difficult.

 

LL, so glad to hear you've gotten some good sleep and that your travels have gone well!

[[Lo...]]

I got a form of total insomnia after taking an antibiotic (Levaquin) in April, and that's why I was put on Klonopin before (lost almost immediately its efficacy) and Trazodone and Klonopin later. I went totally sleepless for five days, and my psychiatrist just said 'That's impossible, you should be hallucinating and you're incredibly lucid instead!'.

 

I've been thinking of your situation and the fact that Levaquin seems to have triggered the insomnia. I think that is very likely. I think the quinolones are very dangerous drugs especially for some people. It can depend on your genetics. My brother had a snapped achilles tendon from Cipro.

 

I suspect that the connection between the antibiotic and the sleeping difficulties is that the antibiotic has killed off some essential good bacteria in the gut. I suspect that you need to heal the gut and somehow repopulate with the missing bacteria. Eat to feed the good bacteria. Avoid junk food that feeds the bad. A naturopath may be able to help you. There are many articles on the microbiome now and its effect on many systems in the body. It has a huge influence. You may find some good information on phoenixrising.org although the science of the microbiome is in its infancy.

 

I find that when my gut is off - ie candida - that my sleep suffers greatly. I think it is the toxins that are released from the yeast. Same with bacteria. I need to really be careful with my diet. Hope this idea helps.  LL

[[Lo...]]

Just came across this as I sort through my emails. Talk only available today for free. Ad for it talks about sleep hormones being made in gut.

 

http://sleepsuccesssummit.com/

 

I missed all the lectures as I was traveling. However....

 

Today's talk is by Ben Lynch.

 

Ben Lynch, ND

Are Your Genes Affecting Your Ability to Sleep?

What You'll Learn -

 

    The MTHFR gene and sleep

    Genetics of fatigue and sleepiness

    Treating sleepiness with Vitamin B

 

 

[[me...]]

 

I think we get a super light type of sleep (if you manage to stay in bed of course) that keeps us a bit functional. And otherwise we get extra adrenal hormones that keep us functional maybe that's why we don't sleep?

I just noticed that sometimes I think I'm awake but my baby starts crying and it's like I shift from another reality so it's probably a super light type of sleep.

 

Yes, I like to think of this as "dolphin sleep"--sleep I'm sure I get even when it seems like I'm not sleeping at all. There has to be something going on that keeps me functional and it helps me to think of it this way.

 

Loveslife--great to hear that you got some good sleep on your vacation! Hopefully you are moving in a positive direction that will hold.

 

I just finished reading a book called Brain Maker by David Perlmutter, that is all about the gut microbiome, and how much it affects the brain. Really fascinating stuff! I pretty much follow the diet plan he recommends, but I need to work on incorporating probiotics and prebiotics on a very regular basis. This book and his earlier Grain Brain are both fantastic books, I highly recommend them to anyone interested in the subject.

[[Lo...]]

....I just finished reading a book called Brain Maker by David Perlmutter, that is all about the gut microbiome, and how much it affects the brain. Really fascinating stuff! I pretty much follow the diet plan he recommends, but I need to work on incorporating probiotics and prebiotics on a very regular basis. This book and his earlier Grain Brain are both fantastic books, I highly recommend them to anyone interested in the subject.

Thanks Meowie. I must re-read the Brain Maker. It is a great book. I have been working on my gut microbiome and slowly increasing probiotics and prebiotics. It is not good to increase too quickly. Caused brain fog in me! My Integrative doc says likely from some degree of SIBO.

 

I too hope this good sleeping "holds"! I will do what I can to positively influence it.  LL

[[Fa...]]

Yeah Fading, I was taught that same thing in school--that when folks go without that much sleep they hallucinate and look a certain way. In general that's been accurate but not for folks in benzo wd. I know some others going through it and have seen them sleepless for days and weeks at a time with no hallucinations and often even looking fine. I used to be puzzled by how normal I could look and act but usually felt like hell from the sleep deprivation. I did have some auditory hallucinations in the beginning (heard music, sound of people talking but couldn't make out words) some nights but since then I've gone without sleep for very long periods without any kind of hallucination. Getting over the dread of not sleeping is a huge part of the battle here. I save some activities I enjoy for night time when I'm not sleeping--books I particularly enjoy, fun reading on Imgur.com, etc. No work. I think work could be useful if it bores you into a restful state but that's not how my mind works--it makes it more agitated and alert when I try it at night.

 

Still, you can do this. You're stronger than you know.

 

Thanks for your words!

I'm still half-way in my tapering and just giving my body a chance to adapt to 0.5 mgs of Klonopin. I (still) can get 6 hours of sleep.

I hope I'll make it.

[[Fa...]]

Yeah Fading, I was taught that same thing in school--that when folks go without that much sleep they hallucinate and look a certain way. In general that's been accurate but not for folks in benzo wd. I know some others going through it and have seen them sleepless for days and weeks at a time with no hallucinations and often even looking fine. I used to be puzzled by how normal I could look and act but usually felt like hell from the sleep deprivation. I did have some auditory hallucinations in the beginning (heard music, sound of people talking but couldn't make out words) some nights but since then I've gone without sleep for very long periods without any kind of hallucination. Getting over the dread of not sleeping is a huge part of the battle here. I save some activities I enjoy for night time when I'm not sleeping--books I particularly enjoy, fun reading on Imgur.com, etc. No work. I think work could be useful if it bores you into a restful state but that's not how my mind works--it makes it more agitated and alert when I try it at night.

 

Still, you can do this. You're stronger than you know.

 

I think we get a super light type of sleep (if you manage to stay in bed of course) that keeps us a bit functional. And otherwise we get extra adrenal hormones that keep us functional maybe that's why we don't sleep?

I just noticed that sometimes I think I'm awake but my baby starts crying and it's like I shift from another reality so it's probably a super light type of sleep.

 

I was thinking the same.

 

I think it's also about glutamate, a lot. Since GABA receptors aren't so functional anymore, it just builds up. Taking a glutamate antagonist before bed makes me relax and it's really the only supplement I'm going to take anymore (L-theanine). It probably prevents its level from building up for a while.

 

Super-light sleep? Mine sometimes feels like not sleeping at all, but just a racing mind with involuntary thoughts. It's hard to say if they're dreams or thoughts. I know (my parents told me) I get microsleeps of 5-10 minutes and don't even realize it. They can tell by my breathing...it changes. To me, it just doesn't feel like I rested properly, it feels more like a crazy drug trip.

Fortunately it doesn't occur all nights. 

 

By the way, the experiment with quetiapine was a DISASTER! I didn't even feel sedated at the dose at which it's supposed to work as a strong antihistamine. 

And it's a drug supposed to knock out everyone...

[[Fa...]]

....I just finished reading a book called Brain Maker by David Perlmutter, that is all about the gut microbiome, and how much it affects the brain. Really fascinating stuff! I pretty much follow the diet plan he recommends, but I need to work on incorporating probiotics and prebiotics on a very regular basis. This book and his earlier Grain Brain are both fantastic books, I highly recommend them to anyone interested in the subject.

Thanks Meowie. I must re-read the Brain Maker. It is a great book. I have been working on my gut microbiome and slowly increasing probiotics and prebiotics. It is not good to increase too quickly. Caused brain fog in me! My Integrative doc says likely from some degree of SIBO.

 

I too hope this good sleeping "holds"! I will do what I can to positively influence it.  LL

 

I was diagnosed with a bad small gut dysbiosis too. 

[[Lo...]]

I was diagnosed with a bad small gut dysbiosis too. 

 

Have you treated it yet? Bad case would likely need antibiotics or lots of herbals. Mine likely avoidance of sugars and fermentables. LL

[[Fa...]]

I was diagnosed with a bad small gut dysbiosis too. 

 

Have you treated it yet? Bad case would likely need antibiotics or lots of herbals. Mine likely avoidance of sugars and fermentables. LL

 

Yes, I took Rifaximin before I started tapering. I don't really know if it worked, though. It's hard to tell apart GI symptoms from dysbiosis itself!

[[Lo...]]

Hi Fellow Insomniacs! Here is an interesting link re sleep. Have a look at the Can't Fall Asleep and Can't Stay Asleep videos.

 

https://seekinghealth.org/learning-center/

 

LL

[[Fa...]]

Hi Fellow Insomniacs! Here is an interesting link re sleep. Have a look at the Can't Fall Asleep and Can't Stay Asleep videos.

 

https://seekinghealth.org/learning-center/

 

LL

 

Good advice! But I have already tried most of them. 

[[Lo...]]

This is interesting too. We need to calm the nervous system! Greatly reduce flight or flight hormones.  LL

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-spector-md/a-lot-of-nerve-the-antido_b_11302272.html

THE BLOG

A Lot Of Nerve: The Antidote To Modern Life — Vagus Nerve Stimulation

08/02/2016 11:30 am ET | Updated Aug 02, 2016

 

Paul Spector, M.D. Founder, Pantheon; Certified health and fitness specialist

 

2016-08-02-1470140063-2912108-meditation.jpg

 

Most people have never heard of the Vagus Nerve. That won’t be true for long. Vagus nerve stimulation (VNS) has already been approved for refractory epilepsy and depression. But the therapeutic reach of this cranial nerve covers a roster of stress-related maladies such as hypertension, insomnia, anxiety, obesity, and the destructive domain of inflammation.

 

The aptly named vagus, latin for wandering, extends from brain to colon and modulates autonomic, cardiac, respiratory, gastrointestinal, immune and endocrine function. Like an unconscious brain, it integrates feelings from the body and regulates essential functions including heart rate, blood pressure and respiration. Even feeding behavior is calibrated by the vagus, initiating digestion and providing the gut-brain signaling pathway.

 

This vast neural network maintains psychophysiological balance. The vagus provides the main communication lines for the parasympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system (ANS). To quickly review, the ANS regulates organ function. It is called autonomic because it is automatic or involuntary. The two branches of the ANS, sympathetic and parasympathetic, control the fight or flight and rest and digest responses, respectively.

 

The sympathetic and parasympathetic systems are a sort of yin and yang. Health requires their balance. Unfortunately modern life makes that quite difficult. Constant stress of one kind or another tips the balance toward excessive sympathetic (fight or flight) tone. This promotes inflammation, hypertension, anxiety, insomnia, immune dysfunction, obesity and accelerated aging.

 

How can we promote increased parasympathetic tone in order to regain balance?

 

Stimulation of the vagus nerve lights up the parasympathetic system and elicits a relaxation response. Until recently VNS required the implantation of a device to deliver an electrical impulse to the nerve. This surgical procedure is complicated and costly. A gathering body of research suggests that the same results can be obtained without surgery. It so happens that the path of a part of the vagus nerve passes very close to the skin in the ear. This makes it possible to provide an electrical impulse through an ear bud and achieve comparable results to the implant at a fraction of the risk and cost. This is a game changer.

 

Although no such device is yet available by prescription, an enterprising company now provides a preview of things to come. Avoiding the tortuous path to FDA approval, Nervana promises a unique listening experience through a headset that delivers both music and vagus nerve stimulation. Their tag line, “Nervana allows you to feel music like never before.”

 

If you’re saying to yourself, “there are simpler ways to relax”, you’re right. In fact, we have been practicing VNS for millennia. Repetitive prayer, chanting, meditation, yoga, Tai Chi, Qi Gong and diaphragmatic breathing all stimulate the vagus nerve. That is why they all decrease heart rate, blood pressure, and inflammation, and increase the secretion of anti-stress hormones such as acetylcholine, prolactin, vasopressin, oxytocin and growth hormone.

 

So whether you assume the lotus position, breath through your belly or apply the magical headset, vagus nerve stimulation is the answer.

 

Can you say Ommmmmm?

[[al...]]

This is interesting too. We need to calm the nervous system! Greatly reduce flight or flight hormones.  LL

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-spector-md/a-lot-of-nerve-the-antido_b_11302272.html

THE BLOG

A Lot Of Nerve: The Antidote To Modern Life — Vagus Nerve Stimulation

08/02/2016 11:30 am ET | Updated Aug 02, 2016

 

Paul Spector, M.D. Founder, Pantheon; Certified health and fitness specialist

 

2016-08-02-1470140063-2912108-meditation.jpg

 

Most people have never heard of the Vagus Nerve. That won’t be true for long. Vagus nerve stimulation (VNS) has already been approved for refractory epilepsy and depression. But the therapeutic reach of this cranial nerve covers a roster of stress-related maladies such as hypertension, insomnia, anxiety, obesity, and the destructive domain of inflammation.

 

The aptly named vagus, latin for wandering, extends from brain to colon and modulates autonomic, cardiac, respiratory, gastrointestinal, immune and endocrine function. Like an unconscious brain, it integrates feelings from the body and regulates essential functions including heart rate, blood pressure and respiration. Even feeding behavior is calibrated by the vagus, initiating digestion and providing the gut-brain signaling pathway.

 

This vast neural network maintains psychophysiological balance. The vagus provides the main communication lines for the parasympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system (ANS). To quickly review, the ANS regulates organ function. It is called autonomic because it is automatic or involuntary. The two branches of the ANS, sympathetic and parasympathetic, control the fight or flight and rest and digest responses, respectively.

 

The sympathetic and parasympathetic systems are a sort of yin and yang. Health requires their balance. Unfortunately modern life makes that quite difficult. Constant stress of one kind or another tips the balance toward excessive sympathetic (fight or flight) tone. This promotes inflammation, hypertension, anxiety, insomnia, immune dysfunction, obesity and accelerated aging.

 

Stimulation of the vagus nerve lights up the parasympathetic system and elicits a relaxation response. Until recently VNS required How can we promote increased parasympathetic tone in order to regain balance?

 

the implantation of a device to deliver an electrical impulse to the nerve. This surgical procedure is complicated and costly. A gathering body of research suggests that the same results can be obtained without surgery. It so happens that the path of a part of the vagus nerve passes very close to the skin in the ear. This makes it possible to provide an electrical impulse through an ear bud and achieve comparable results to the implant at a fraction of the risk and cost. This is a game changer.

 

Although no such device is yet available by prescription, an enterprising company now provides a preview of things to come. Avoiding the tortuous path to FDA approval, Nervana promises a unique listening experience through a headset that delivers both music and vagus nerve stimulation. Their tag line, “Nervana allows you to feel music like never before.”

 

If you’re saying to yourself, “there are simpler ways to relax”, you’re right. In fact, we have been practicing VNS for millennia. Repetitive prayer, chanting, meditation, yoga, Tai Chi, Qi Gong and diaphragmatic breathing all stimulate the vagus nerve. That is why they all decrease heart rate, blood pressure, and inflammation, and increase the secretion of anti-stress hormones such as acetylcholine, prolactin, vasopressin, oxytocin and growth hormone.

 

So whether you assume the lotus position, breath through your belly or apply the magical headset, vagus nerve stimulation is the answer.

 

Can you say Ommmmmm?

 

Can you say Yin yoga and restorative yoga?