My microtaper rant (last one) Negative post, sorry.

[[ke...]]

Yes I totally understand how you must be feeling Oscar. There is the possibility that this last part of your taper could still take some time. It took me about 9 months to taper the last 1mg of V, and I certainly didn’t have the tapering problems that you have had.

 

I wouldn’t normally suggest giving up to anyone, but you really do seem to have run out of puff now, so staying put with your dose for the foreseeable future might be a good thing for you. It will give you time to relax and just enjoy being normal for a while, then maybe after a nice long break of being stable you might summon the energy to try again.

 

On the other hand, maybe you might just need to taper really quickly off what’s left of your dose and just get it over with, but of course no one knows how you will feel doing that.

 

The other possibility of course if that this is one of your normal waves, and next week you will feel better and you will be more encouraged to keep going.

 

I’m sorry. I really wish I had some pearls of wisdom to give you.

 

Except that he is not enjoying being normal now. He is in tolerance with waxing and waning symptoms  anxiety, sweating etc. Not a happy guy. If he tapered 3 months to zero he will be jusy fine. No psychosis, Hell be able to eat. The DR and constitutionsl sumptoms will suck, but atleast he will be able to say Im off, feeling lousy but surviving and over the next few months (not years} he will gain strength and energy and he will become optimistic. And he will fine and that his new friends will be DR,which he will get used to,and annoying brain fog with its tricky frjend fstigue,bUYWG-WHICH REQUIRES

Buy he will accommodate by going out socially ND NEET THE CHAJJECGES OF THE SCENE, WHICH REQURIRES US TO DISSOCIATE AND NOT BE FAERFUL OF OTYHRH

[[Sm...]]

How can they have something called "daily" taper and then say a hold is needed? If daily is literally then the hold time is 23hrs 59 mins....this is very confusing and someone looking at changing to a daily dont understand?

 

When you are doing a daily taper you are cutting on a daily basis. If everything is going well, and you aren't getting any unmanageable symptoms, then you continue to cut daily. However, there will be times when those daily cuts may start to get too much, especially as your dose gets lower, and that's when you need to be listening to what your body is telling you and you may need to do a hold.

 

Sometimes just doing a hold for a few days is all you need to do, but sometimes you may also need to reassess how much you are cutting on a daily basis. I think a rule of thumb there is that if you seem to be holding more than you are cutting then it's time to reduce how much you are cutting each day.

 

It's really not confusing at all. The difference with a daily taper is that you need to tune into what your body is telling you more than you do with a cut and hold taper. That may not suit some people, and that's fine. Most people who daily taper usually work out what their "early warning signs" are and that gives them a clue as to what is happening. For me I knew that when I started to get afternoon headaches that was when I needed to check myself.

 

I taper daily (or in other words I micro-taper) then hold. I hold almost as long as I taper.

You do what works for you.

[[os...]]

 

 

I will try and forget about this for the next month and see if I get stable and if so, I will try and carry on down slow... I might have sensitized myself by working too hard, so, if that is/was the cause, I just need to get calm again and let my system regain some then I should be good to go.

 

Keagan, you might be right mister, it may come to that, fast taper off but that would be a last resort, reinstate or get this done.

 

 

[[Di...]]

I'm not sure if you saw the post I made the other day, but remember back a month or so ago when you were feeling really good, and you really felt like you had turned a corner? Try to remember how you felt then, because if you could feel that way before you will feel that way again.

[[On...]]

ME ME ME!!!!  I would taper 4-7 years but ONLY if it is what I had to do to get off the benzo.  I will never ever EVER accept staying on these poisons for life. They are in a classification all by themselves and the damage, tolerance, and withdrawal symptoms are pretty much a guarantee at some point in time. This is why so many long term users are working hard to get off.  There IS no good future on a benzo. Some people may need other replacement medications that are NOT in the benzo classification to manage certain problems but so many people learn to deal with pre-existing conditions without drugs that I've decided to maintain "positive expectations" first.

 

I have "positive expectation" that I will successfully taper down to zero, however long that might take. I am down to 1.87 now, daily tapering made this possible, and even if I could never successfully get any lower than this, no way in hell would I "reinstate" at a HIGHER level than my body has now adapted to.  If my mind ever talks to me with "give up and take MORE benzo" I will absolutely 100% know that is the benzo talking and not my true authentic self. That is the "addiction" beast within talking. I'm fine where I am now so why would I want to throw that all away?  There will never be any "going back up" again for me, ever, unless it is a very small temporary correction.

 

I DID choose to take an adjunct medication NOT in the benzo class to help with sleep, gut problems, and depression. It has worked perfectly for me, just a tiny 3.75 mg of mirtazipine. When the time comes, I will gladly taper off of it. And if I absolutely HAD to keep taking it, even the rest of my life, I would do that hands down over ANY benzo.  But I believe that my "POSITIVE EXPECTATION" that I will NOT need it forever GREATLY increases my odds that I will not.  And, happily, much research shows that to be statistically true.

 

My daily mantra "no mo' benzo, no mo' benzo".  Just my 2 cents worth.   

[[os...]]

I'm not sure if you saw the post I made the other day, but remember back a month or so ago when you were feeling really good, and you really felt like you had turned a corner? Try to remember how you felt then, because if you could feel that way before you will feel that way again.

 

Yep, I felt pretty much free of most symptoms... which was why I cleaned my whole house on a 90F day... (stupid or what?)

 

The thing is, this taper may or may not get harder now... some say that it gets harder the lower you go.

 

Diaz-Pam, you may not want to jinx your recovery but I am curious as to when you really started to feel the mental stuff lift as you got lower, it always strikes me as odd that so many that slow taper never actually say when things started to get better?

 

I did notice River Wolf say that it took him a year and a half post taper to start feeling good... which kind of is expected really, I am starting to think that even after a slow taper, it takes up to a year to feel better and a year after that to fell 100% recovered.

 

That's kind of not so great when doing a super slow taper... it just adds more years in my case... Keagan is probably right, I actually think dragging out the last mgs is probably prolonging this but that said, it depends on how one feels going slow... for me it's starting to feel as if maintaining some degree of wellness may be almost impossible, in which case a faster taper off may be the answer... but could also prove disastrous.

 

The whole thing is a conundrum really, I actually think staying on this taper much longer might just drives me nuts eventually... I mean, there is having patience but that is all well and good if feeling OK some of the time but the prolonged uncertainty of this is starting to take it's toll on me now... if I were off and suffering, at least i would know it will start to get better eventually but it's the getting off and the acute phase which, quite frankly, terrify me.

 

For me, I would rather slow taper with the chance of getting stable every so often, with a rapid taper off, once you are in lala land, there is no way out, I would imagine that is hard going... you know, to me it's like signing up for brain damage and then waiting out a healing time... if I thought I could hack it, I would have done it by now but reversing 25 years of benzo use is a hard thing to do, trying to do it faster could be a trip through Hell for a long time to come.

 

I honestly don't even know how people make it through the acute phase as I hear that can be like 3 months??? Jeez, not looking forward to that part at all... dreading it if I do have to get off faster.

 

 

[[Di...]]

 

Yep, I felt pretty much free of most symptoms... which was why I cleaned my whole house on a 90F day... (stupid or what?)

 

The thing is, this taper may or may not get harder now... some say that it gets harder the lower you go.

 

Diaz-Pam, you may not want to jinx your recovery but I am curious as to when you really started to feel the mental stuff lift as you got lower, it always strikes me as odd that so many that slow taper never actually say when things started to get better?

 

I did notice River Wolf say that it took him a year and a half post taper to start feeling good... which kind of is expected really, I am starting to think that even after a slow taper, it takes up to a year to feel better and a year after that to fell 100% recovered.

 

That's kind of not so great when doing a super slow taper... it just adds more years in my case... Keagan is probably right, I actually think dragging out the last mgs is probably prolonging this but that said, it depends on how one feels going slow... for me it's starting to feel as if maintaining some degree of wellness may be almost impossible, in which case a faster taper off may be the answer... but could also prove disastrous.

 

The whole thing is a conundrum really, I actually think staying on this taper much longer might just drives me nuts eventually... I mean, there is having patience but that is all well and good if feeling OK some of the time but the prolonged uncertainty of this is starting to take it's toll on me now... if I were off and suffering, at least i would know it will start to get better eventually but it's the getting off and the acute phase which, quite frankly, terrify me.

 

For me, I would rather slow taper with the chance of getting stable every so often, with a rapid taper off, once you are in lala land, there is no way out, I would imagine that is hard going... you know, to me it's like signing up for brain damage and then waiting out a healing time... if I thought I could hack it, I would have done it by now but reversing 25 years of benzo use is a hard thing to do, trying to do it faster could be a trip through Hell for a long time to come.

 

I honestly don't even know how people make it through the acute phase as I hear that can be like 3 months??? Jeez, not looking forward to that part at all... dreading it if I do have to get off faster.

 

Provided I kept within the limits of how much I could cut each day, I would be okay. However, as soon as I began cutting too much, or needed a hold, my insomnia would almost become unbearable. Along with that I would get really bad depression, anxiety and headaches. Insomnia has always been my problem, ever since I became menopausal, and that was what got me onto valium in the first place. My insomnia, with associated depression and anxiety, made me suicidal, and had I not found BB I may not have been here today.

 

In fact the whole menopause thing made tapering more difficult for me because a lot of the time I didn’t know if what I was experiencing was because of my taper or because of hormonal issues. So it was always a process of elimination in working out what the problem was. I’m sure I probably could have tapered more quickly it if hadn’t been because of that.

 

So I honestly can’t tell you when things started to get better because things have always been up and down. There was never any point where I could say “ah yes – I’m getting better”. If I made the mistake of thinking that one day, and getting a bit complacent, I would probably pay for it the next day.  I could go from feeling really good one week, to feeling really bad the next – really a bit like what you are experiencing, although your symptoms are probably more extreme.

 

Even now that I’m more than a month past zero I am still having sleeping issues. They are getting better and I’m actually fairly confident that given another month things will be a lot better again. In the initial couple of week past zero I couldn’t sleep at all unless I took some doxy or an AD, but now I’m getting a good night’s sleep, without any meds, maybe a few times a week. The major difference now is that I don’t get the anxiety and depression anymore because I know that this is just a process I have to go through and things will get better with a bit of time. Given the half life of valium, and the number of half lives you need to eliminate the drug from your system, I should have the whole lot eliminated by the end of Sept.

 

I tended not to complain too much on the forum because I knew there were people who were far worse than me, so I prefered to just try to offer what help I could to others. However, the thing that was really good for me was to find a Buddie who was experiencing almost identical problems to me (including the menopause issue) and who was at the same dose as me. So we could PM each other almost daily to complain about whatever was ailing us on that particular day or to swap whatever information we had just found. For me, that was a huge godsend, and it's something I would recommend to everyone. I'm sure we will now be life-long friends.

 

For me I have no regrets in taking my last 1mg slowly and even tapering right off to zero. I think the length of time it takes you to start feeling good will totally depend on how you tapered and what dose you jumped from. Had I jumped from (let’s say) 0.5mg, that would have been 6 months before I did finish at zero. So would I have started to feel better sooner? Probably not. I probably would have needed those 6 months to get to the point that I’m at now, but the difference is that these last 6 months were probably a lot more comfortable for me than what they might have been if I had jumped at 0.5mg.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to make such a long winded post, but hopefully there's something in it that will help you.

[[os...]]

 

 

Thanks for that explanation Diaz-Pam. So you never really had the derealization then? I have had this a loooong time, pretty much since I started tapering... in a different world but with every few reductions now I get more clarity come back... so I can definitely say I am healing as I was bad...

 

I guess not everyone knows that disconnected surreal feeling, I have not been on this planet since 01st July 2011... nor have I had a full window in all that time apart from one... the good news is the semi windows are happening more this year... and the derealization is gradually getting better and better, I don't have fog much now either and lots of other stuff is better at this dose also.. I am waking up slowly... not sure you can relate but I am sure others might...

 

It's not easy being in a derealized state for this long... this is primarily why I struggle... I am still in another land... a place that time forgot... or whatever...

 

I am hopeful this gets better over the course of the next year, it seems to get better every few months now... but the waves suck if I get ahead of myself much like you.

 

I was so bad, I guess I can explain my improvements better... they are happening now, much has gotten better which is why I think I will be more present by 2 mgs, 90% back to feeling normal would be good for me... the rest, not that bothered... I can handle being 90% better as far as the derealization and mental stuff goes... I just don't want to live in this dream state much longer... thank God it's better than it used to be and I have had semi windows also.

 

I don't believe we don't heal as we taper, I have felt myself start to come back... no doubt that will carry on as I get lower... I can't say I am the same now as I was at even 4 mg Valium equivalent... and I am definitely not the same as I was higher than that... so my brain is waking up in parts... it's just a slow process... but maybe it needs to be, I don't really want to take the lid off 24 years quickly... that would be uncomfortable physically and emotionally...

 

If I make it to 2 mg, I will make it off this stuff, the downside is it will take me a long time to get to that dose... but I am not about to quit just yet... but I have to learn to accept this is taking far, far longer than I ever anticipated... but if I don't make it to 2 mgs, I will never know if this stuff will truly start to shift and I would like to get there just to see for myself, I think I will turn a big corner at that dose, I can't see this getting worse at that point and down... but like you I may have to take it slow till the very end... so a long road ahead for me for sure and that's something I need to think about.

 

 

[[Di...]]

I think the fact that you are definitely experiencing improvements is a good sign that things are getting better. Sadly it probably won't happen quickly for you, but I think the alternative options of not continuing with your taper, or doing a quick taper to zero, probably aren't good options. Your tone today is sounding a little better so hopefully you are coming out of this current wave and you will start to feel better about everything. At least I hope so.

[[jo...]]

Hi Oscar

 

I came on this thread to offer my support.

I really respect you having the patience to go at your own speed.

I know it's hard but try not to focus on how bad you might feel.

This is so easy to do in wd.

Also, the idea of a buddie, as Diaz-pam suggested is a great one.

She was my buddie and helped me more than she will ever know, as she first introduced me to the idea of perimenopause.

We were able to taper together almost and it was a huge source of support.

You can always pm me, I am really happy to hear from you and hate to hear you suffering.

You seem to be doing all the right things though.

It's all about being as well as possible as we taper and arriving at 0mg in the best shape we can, even if some sx remain, all we can do is take as much care as possible while tapering, which is what you are doing.

I know you will do it, I have every confidence in you.

You posess enormous patience which is invaluable in benzo tapers.

You also posess great strength, which will see you through your taper.

 

[[Mo...]]

I agree that you are doing great Oscar and have much more paitience and options than I currently do.  I'm At 100 mg now and have lost a lot my home up north my husbands burnt out the doctors in the county Im in don't RX benzos so I have to get some insurance fast and Ive hit tolerance again.  The problem I'm facing is they have no people in the county that taper people from benzos cause they don't RX them.  Bit of a canundrum i am in. If I don't get some private insurance fast I will be forced to CT off of 100 mgs of librium.  It's crazy I know but you are the only buddie I know on Librium and would greatly appreciate your input. Best- Mo2

[[mr...]]

Hi Oscar,

Just stopped by to see how you are doing.

I see you haven't posted since Sept.

Hope all is well and have a great christmas and new years.

 

[[Mo...]]

How are you doing oscar?