My microtaper rant (last one) Negative post, sorry.

[[os...]]

I need to get this off my chest and that's it from me, no more vents or negative posts.

 

I first came to drop the equivalent of 2 mgs from my original dose (let's do this as Valium, it's easier) and that was a doctor error, I was ill 2 weeks later and he told me he should have advised 1 mg reduction (this was intended as a head start to my taper).

 

The withdrawals that hit me after that drop 14 days later was not pretty at all, I felt like I had suffered a stroke, this was when I first found out just how hard it would be to get off this stuff, I knew there had to be a better way.

 

I found Jana Hill online and God bless her, if it was not for her I would not be where I am at now, yet one thing I cannot possibly agree on is that the microtaper method is faster in all cases, from memory, I believe Jana tapered off her Valium in 7 months or something like that, this gave me the impression that my own taper should not take more than a year and so I started and despite being ill from the very start, I forged ahead and managed to endure many horrible symptoms on the way down, it was Hell but it was tolerable in as much as I did not die and when things started to get really hard I adjusted my cut rate and made it smaller.... and smaller.... and kept on going...

 

Since the very start, for 7.5 months I did not use a single days hold... I just carried on tapering and adjusting cuts as I got lower.

 

At approximately 4 mgs Valium (where even Jana admitted things changed for her also) I got hit with anxiety that was pretty much terror, I got some hydroxyzine and magnesium and altered my cut and carried on and that was when I was hit with the worst withdrawals ever, huge back cramps, sweats, terror and panic that was just unbelievable, I thought I was going crazy. This is what can happen if you do not use holds at all for long periods of time, do not make this mistake, holds are NECESSARY and it is BAD advice to be told otherwise, I could have ended up in hospital.

 

I made a small updose after that and waited it out but for a week I awoke every morning to electricity surging through my body, the impending doom feeling came on the second I opened my eyes, it was so bad that every night I did not even want to go to sleep.

 

THIS IS WHY HOLDS ARE NEEDED EVEN WHEN MICRO TAPERING !!!!!!!!

 

So, there is a warning for you all, a week later and I was crying because I felt sane again and I started to stabilize, I was literally so bad I thought I was going to lose my mind and I was so out of it I could not even see it as just a severe panic episode and I had suffered a few panic attacks before but this one almost had me admitted to hospital and for days afterwards I could not be left alone for even 5 minutes as I did not feel like my mind was my own, it was very traumatic and I lost about 2 stone in weight over a very short space of time.

 

So, OK, the micro taper is better than cut and hold as far as severity of symptoms go, yet at what cost?

 

We see here on this site there are many, many people that taper slow and eventually get to the last few mgs yet in order to get free, most have to taper very, very slowly ad yet many are still ill and still have to battle to avoid getting hit with acute symptoms, often needing to make updoses...

 

So, what is going on here???

 

It seems to me that the verdict is pretty much in, whilst we *may* be able to somewhat limit the severity of symptoms through much trial and error, the very fact that many are getting slammed at 1 mg Valium or below is proof enough for me that we in fact do NOT heal until we are off the drug, the only person that tapered very slow that has had the courage to say as much has been Flip rain, as much as I resented hearing this, I read just now a post from another super slow taperer that the real healing does not really start until we are off the drug...

 

A few other members on this site, even some moderators that tapered Ashton style have chimed in and echoed the same sentiments... YES, I felt pretty great the past 3-4 months and yet now I am back to feeling bad again... so, in regard to being "ONLY" on 2 mg Valium, or 1 mg Valium or whatever, it doesn't matter... mtmimi on here got slammed at 0.4 mgs or something similar and she was not even a long term user of benzo's, just a few weeks I think and she tapered very, very carefully.

 

YES, if we do the Valium dance backwards and forwards, we often can get down to the lower doses with far less suffering than what a cut and hold method would offer and for that reason, it is preferable for the reason that at least we ARE getting lower in dose, HOWEVER.... MY argument is if we do not really heal at all by this method, then are we just delaying the inevitable or is it just a way of spreading out the acute phase... or do we still go through the acute phase post taper???

 

Ashton was a pioneer in this, the real deal and yes, even she admits that there is no such thing as too slow when it comes to withdrawal and yet I never had any idea this would take years to do and even then, with this slow method of tapering, there is no guarantee it will work.

 

Many on this site talk as if once we are free this is a done deal and it's OVER, so what's the deal here with people getting slammed at 0.3 mg Valium and so on???

 

I am starting to wish I had gone the Ashton route... I may have failed but at least I would have known long ago, this method, although less painful, is, in my opinion, a very slow and arduous affair that guarantees nothing and personally, I think it is just delaying the inevitable acute phase, which we either muscle through or we fail and reinstate.

 

One thing that is glaringly obvious here is that we do not heal much as we taper down, if we did then symptoms would be milder under a certain dose and yet they are not, this pretty much confirms to me that the taper is in fact just stage one of this whole withdrawal process... for all I know I could taper for 5 years or more and STILL be in protracted recovery for more than 18 months.

 

So, sorry for the vent but I am pretty tired of everyone banging on about zero as if all of a sudden everything is peachy, I don't see that much of that on here... and it worries me that whilst my own taper may be very slow and at time bloody hard to manage, I worry that I am wasting my time here, I called a helpline last Summer and the advisor told me not to waste years to get to zero... obviously he knew something I did not and why do so many that get free still post on this site years later even after a slow taper, the answer is because they are still not healed yet, that is why.

 

Benzo's; the gift that keeps on giving. 

 

I am a recovering alcoholic and I will be amazed if this taper does not make me want to pick up a drink at some point... because this s**t is not easy.

 

Any long term benzo user that manages to get off and stay off benzo's has my utmost respect, personally, I am not sure if I am going to make it... even Ashton said that long term users should not be forced to withdraw yet a life on benzos? Not what I want at all but neither do I relish the rest of this taper that could take years and with no guarantee... and the chances of me pulling this off without starting some other medication is looking extremely slim at this point.

 

As a recovering alcoholic, I am starting to think that being alcohol free is enough, I did perfectly fine on my benzo for many, many years and now look at the mess I am in...

 

Sorry for the vent, it's the last one from me but this s**t gets so f**king old after all this time, I have been at this crap for 38 freaking months... it's bloody outrageous... no wonder many stay on their meds for life... I am almost beginning to envy them at this point.

 

 

[[os...]]

 

 

I have made a decision to taper VERY slow and use not 1 or 2 week holds but 3 - 4 week holds... this may afford me a better life but I will ONLY do this for another year and then see where I am at, my goal after that would be to crawl along further to 2 mgs as that is where some on this site reported a lifting of symptoms... and I am curious to know whether or not this will be the case for me also as by that point I will have been at this taper for 5 years.

 

My own doctor does not agree I should be in rehab to get off the last of this and FULLY supports me taking 2 years to get to 2 mgs, he has spoken with an addiction specialist and so this whole 5 years to get to 2 mgs business is not crazy after all otherwise he would say as much...

 

The way I see this now is that recovery from benzo's is probably a 5-6 year deal for many long term users... I must be chronically dependent... maybe as many CT cases heal at 4 years I will start to feel some improvements by next year if I just keep going but my only next real hope is that I turn a big corner at 2 mgs as far as the derealization and mental stuff goes... that is pretty much all I can hang onto and if this does not happen for me, I will have to decide at that point whether to reinstate, carry on tapering for more years or get my arse into a detox facility to take me off the last 2 mgs... I don't fancy the last option but if I have healed at all from all the other mgs, then a short taper off 2 mgs should not constitute a CT that should have me in protracted withdrawals... mind you, we are talking benzo's here, pretty much anything is possible.

 

I am sorry I ever doubted Polenta... for me to get my life back completely I am looking at a similar time frame also,.. I knew pretty much a year at this that as I had been on so many years and have had a very problematic recovery so far that I was going to be at this for a very, very long time.

 

[Guest [Fe...]]

oscar, I'm so sorry you're going through this, no one should ever have to suffer like that. 

 

I don't have any experience with getting down to a low dose by tapering.  I was on 1mg 3x per day a few years ago and tapered off the middle dose (1mg) by .125 every 2 weeks and had no problem, but I still had the 2mg per day keeping me going.  I'm still on 2mg/day.

I did have a Dr. years ago c/t me and it was pure HELL until I found a Dr. to reinstate me.  HE said it was TOO DETRIMENTAL for someone who had been on it as long as I was to try to come off of it.  He is now retired. 

 

I too am a recovering alcoholic (a little over 13.5 months) and am afraid what this will do to my sobriety.  I have thought about that a lot and it scares the hell out of me.  I haven't had any thoughts of drinking or any cravings, but I'm afraid that may happen.

 

I am one of the "fortunate" ones who has had no known detrimental effects from being on k, no tolerance issues (it still keeps my panic at bay, I have anxiety disorder), no i/d withdrawal and no paradoxical effects.  I've been on this for 15 years and am starting to think it would be best for me to stay on it.  I know that view isn't going to popular here (for good reason for a lot of people) but for me it just may be the best option.  I also have bipolar disorder and all the stress of withdrawal may just throw me into something worse than staying on it.  I agree with Ashton as far as long term users but I'm afraid I'll run into another Dr. that will want to do a fast taper.....but from what you have written here, and from what I have read, that may be the best option for some?

Especially if true healing doesn't begin until the drug is totally withdrawn!? 

 

The whole damn taper crap scares me to DEATH.   

 

Sorry to write so much about me on your thread, I just relate to a lot of what you say, and again, I'm so sorry you're going through this.  I'm glad you vented and let it out.  I hope things level out for you very soon. Thanks for the warning about holds during micro-tapering. 

 

[[be...]]

Oscar:

 

This is a good place to vent so vent away! I really feel your pain and have followed you thru this process and after 38 months you are still miserable. To the point of feeling such misery that it makes you want to stay on benzos. But I have to disagree the point you made that you cannot heal while still tapering. This is not true in my case. I am also 17 years sober from alcohol right now and frankly, it scares me that I will pick up a drink when push comes to shove. But I tapered 5% every two weeks from 10 mg of K, and at 3 mg my emotions have returned, most of my cog fog has gone away, and my memory is really beginning to come back. I'm sure I won't heal 100% until I am off the junk but my healing is taking place, while I taper. And other than some annoying insomnia issues, I am symptom free. So far at least. So you CAN heal while tapering. It happened to me so maybe it will happen to you to. And I don't know a lick about micro tapering and am too afraid to try it. Do what you think is best Oscar. ~~ Bets

[[os...]]

oscar, I'm so sorry you're going through this, no one should ever have to suffer like that. 

 

I don't have any experience with getting down to a low dose by tapering.  I was on 1mg 3x per day a few years ago and tapered off the middle dose (1mg) by .125 every 2 weeks and had no problem, but I still had the 2mg per day keeping me going.  I'm still on 2mg/day.

I did have a Dr. years ago c/t me and it was pure HELL until I found a Dr. to reinstate me.  HE said it was TOO DETRIMENTAL for someone who had been on it as long as I was to try to come off of it.  He is now retired. 

 

I too am a recovering alcoholic (a little over 13.5 months) and am afraid what this will do to my sobriety.  I have thought about that a lot and it scares the hell out of me.  I haven't had any thoughts of drinking or any cravings, but I'm afraid that may happen.

 

I am one of the "fortunate" ones who has had no known detrimental effects from being on k, no tolerance issues (it still keeps my panic at bay, I have anxiety disorder), no i/d withdrawal and no paradoxical effects.  I've been on this for 15 years and am starting to think it would be best for me to stay on it.  I know that view isn't going to popular here (for good reason for a lot of people) but for me it just may be the best option.  I also have bipolar disorder and all the stress of withdrawal may just throw me into something worse than staying on it.  I agree with Ashton as far as long term users but I'm afraid I'll run into another Dr. that will want to do a fast taper.....but from what you have written here, and from what I have read, that may be the best option for some?

Especially if true healing doesn't begin until the drug is totally withdrawn!? 

 

The whole damn taper crap scares me to DEATH.   

 

Sorry to write so much about me on your thread, I just relate to a lot of what you say, and again, I'm so sorry you're going through this.  I'm glad you vented and let it out.  I hope things level out for you very soon. Thanks for the warning about holds during micro-tapering.

 

Thank you Feline Lady. 

 

I am so sorry for the negative post, I do not mean to scare anyone with time frames but remember I have been on this for many, many years, I knew pretty soon after signing up here that I was deep in this given my duration of use and whilst I have had some smoother times in my taper, I have hardly made much progress in the last year alone.

 

I also had no tolerance issues with my benzo, which is Librium, I was on it for years and had no problems with it but I did feel it dulled my life a little in more recent years but as soon as I quit drinking 3.8 years ago, I felt better within 3 months and life was starting to get really good amd then I started tapering off this stuff and I have pretty much had no life ever since... I have been too ill to attend AA meetings so I have not even been able to celebrate my milestones... it's just ridiculous... the alcohol was a breeze compared to getting off this stuff (BTW, I only drank once a week and on that day I did not dose my benzo).

 

I wanted to be clean of this and able to attend AA clean as well as sober, I wanted to be HONEST with myself and was trying to do the RIGHT THING but I was on 30 mg Librium which is 12 mg Valium per day, for many years I was on 20 mgs Librium which is 8 g Valium, these doses are hardly those of abuse... and I have to say, the drug did help me live a better life in many ways in as much as I was able to go out and do stuff without being overly concious or panicky... mind you, much of that was nervousness from my drinking when I was younger, now I don't drink I am fine but unfortunately stuck with this hard dependency and I can't say getting totally free feels like it is the right thing to do any longer... this is not denial, it is simply because I am not sure I can suffer this for many years, life is too damn short and Lord knows many people need meds these days, either a benzo or an anti depressant, rightly or wrongly these drugs can help many, they may be toxic and bad but in many cases they actually do save lives also... I am not totally anti these meds,,, at one time I probably was and I disagree with them being prescribed as freely as they are but I also recognize that some people actually feel life is more tolerable with a med, it's no fun living with anxiety and a doctor I saw last year said I was possibly a little bipolar... maybe that's not accurate but how should I know?

 

We can hate on doctors all we want and hate these meds also but in some cases some people actually do have conditions that would not warrant a good life without some form of medication... I do not just say this as I may reinstate or whatever later on, I hate that I am so dependant on this drug but the fact of the matter is that I am and to get off it after this many years is proving to be an ongoing nightmare and I am starting to think this is actually detrimental to my own well being, I know at this rate I will need to be prescribed an anti depressant to see me through this, this whole free of meds idea is not one that is going to be easily attained for me now... so in many ways I sometimes think I should make peace with that and take the damn pills and live as before but stay alcohol free....  if I put much more time into this I will have to know I am going to see this through eventually, or decide to reinstate and stay on for life... that would be a big decision and one that I will not be taking lightly but I honestly do not know if I can carry on like this for much longer...

[[al...]]

I, too, have read so many horror stories, time and time again, that I'm also thinking I should perhaps not micro-taper, or taper at all for that matter. Apologies for being so blunt but I simply have fear of things possibly becoming worse than they are now. And from experience, I've learned that no matter how bad one thinks one has it, there is always room for more misery. Again, sorry for the... 'negativity'.

Good luck to you, Oscar.

[[os...]]

 

 

I am truly sorry to be so negative here... yet I guess I have awakened to the fact that after 38 months, this is really not getting any easier, I am merely stating my own experience and telling it like it is... I have quite a bit of clarity of mind right now and yes, the whole duration of this thing is crazy and it is just starting to truly dawn on me how impossible this whole thing is and not only that, I am losing years of my life to this now and I don't call that recovery, all this seems to be is constant suffering all for the sake of getting off an ant anxiety pill... I don't honestly know many people that would put themselves through this... OK, I want my LIFE back but it's not looking as if I am going to be successful... I won't get these past 3 years back nor will I get the next 3 years back either... it's a HUGE sacrifice... and I need to make a decision and soon because I don't want to be at this for 5 years and then decide to reinstate, if I am going to do it, sooner would be better than later... at least that way I could save a couple of years of my life and start living again.

 

The truth of the matter is that millions of people take these drugs and anti depressants and stay on them for life... med free is a wonderful idea but the reality is that, for some of us, that is something that just is no longer an option without a long period of misery... as with anything in life, one has to weigh up the pros and cons and right now, carry on with this tapering lark is not exactly winning... if we truly did heal on the way down, then fair enough but when I see people suffering ar 1 mg Valium of even 0.5 mg Valium, it just makes me want to forget this whole thing... it really does, for now I am starting to truly grasp the fact that this misery goes on until the very end and so why even drag it out any longer?

 

Furthermore, what is to say I don't get protracted even after a long and miserable taper?

 

Where is the recovery in this?

 

I suppose no matter what I do, the last of this taper will probably be a white knuckle experience and that is why many jump as the last of the taper becomes unbearable....

 

I am amazed sometimes how people do this, I really am, even at 0.25 mg Valium I would be terrified to jump but I would do it in the knowledge that it is considered safe... I can't see how that could equate a CT... but then again, who knows, it just seems sometimes that there is little GOOD in all of this and that's the most discouraging thing for me.

 

 

[[al...]]

Oscar, may I ask, what is (or was) the initial reasoning behind not holding during a micro? I too have been taught not to hold and continue tapering, but I haven't actually started a real taper aside from testing the pill-to-liquid response in my body and two cuts (with 14 days of hold intervals).

[Guest [Fe...]]

oscar, I don't find your posts negative, you are being honest and trying to do what's best for you.  Only you can make that decision and I support you no matter what you decide.  I agree, some people have to be on meds.  Like I said, I have bipolar (diagnosed when I was sober, the alcohol abuse/addiction had no bearing on that diagnosis, I used alcohol to self medicate).  I take Depakote and I also take something for depression when needed. 

I consider myself sober even though I'm on a benzo.  I have never abused it, I've always taken it as prescribed.  I was sober 20 years before I relapsed and now I have heard from more and more people in AA who do take psychotropic meds, although I'm sure there are still those that are afraid to admit it, and really it's no one's business. 

 

I wish you the very best with whatever you decide. 

 

 

[[In...]]

My understanding of the daily taper with no holds is to find that "sweet spot" where a person can continuously upregulate each day because that "sweet spot" is a rate that fits well for that individual person.

 

And frankly, I wonder if people can upregulate each and every day at a particular rate. I mean, who says? Who made that rule anyway?

 

Maybe theres a day or two or three during this daily taper when no upregulation happens? That sounds completely plausible to me.

 

And it also sounds completely plausible that there are people who can daily taper with no holds and do ok. Did someone forget that this is an individual process, and that it's not "a one size fits all" thing going on here?

 

And also I think the term "sweet spot" sounds actually kind of dumb. I don't think it exists for everyone, I do think that HOLDS ARE NECESSARY for many, many people during a microtaper, and once again, this "sweet spot" sounds really kind of stupid, so if that kind of term "needs" to be used, isn't there something else that means something similar that could be used?

[[os...]]

Oscar, may I ask, what is (or was) the initial reasoning behind not holding during a micro? I too have been taught not to hold and continue tapering, but I haven't actually started a real taper aside from testing the pill-to-liquid response in my body.

 

I was advised to make my cut smaller when things became difficult and carry on down, I must admit, for a time it worked although I probably had way more symptoms that I should have had for a "slow" taper...

 

The cuts ended up building up and I obviously shot past my own ability to heal and I got slammed big time... so in that regard, not using holds is bad advice as the brain simply does not have time to adjust,.. even making small daily cuts, it is still unwise to just carry on, holds are an important part of recovery as they give the brain a chance to catch up and match the withdrawal rate closely.

 

If I were to do this again, instead of thinking of a year I would be thinking more along the lines of 7 years but I am loathe to go back now as no matter how slow I taper, I don't think any of it would have been painless... in some ways I am glad I got the higher doses out the way but having said that, I might have averted a bad slam had I gone slower and had it not been for that slam, I would probably almost be off by now.

 

 

[[os...]]

My understanding of the daily taper with no holds is to find that "sweet spot" where a person can continuously upregulate each day because that "sweet spot" is a rate that fits well for that individual person.

 

And frankly, I wonder if people can upregulate each and every day at a particular rate. I mean, who says? Who made that rule anyway?

 

Maybe theres a day or two or three during this daily taper when no upregulation hapans? That sounds completely plausible to me.

 

And it also sounds completely plausible that there are people who can daily taper with no holds and do ok. Did someone forget that this is an individual process, and that it's not "a one size fits all" thing going on here?

 

And also I think the term "sweet spot" sounds actually kind of dumb. I don't think it exists for everyone, I do think that HOLDS ARE NECESSARY for many, many people during a microtaper, and once again, this "sweet spot" sounds really kind of stupid, so if that kind of term "needs" to be used, isn't there something else that means something similar that could be used?

 

 

Without holds we ultimately run the risk of crashing... cuts accumulate and most know this by experience... the downside to daily tapering is that you never truly know where you are at as far as lag time goes and so it is very easy to over taper and get hit with symptoms, the answer to this problem is to use holds as Ashton and TRAP describe... I think Ashton said more recently something about longer holds or am I mistaken?

 

TRAP advises 3-4 week holds for a slow Valium taper from 2 mg to 0 mg, the slow schedule is 17 months... which is quite slow... I am going twice as slow but maybe I need to being as I was on so many years...

 

In a way, it IS good to know that TRAP have this slow taper plan, Ashton says there is no such thing as too slow and my doctor supports this slow taper also... even if it is "a bit excessive" he admits I can't argue with my body, he knows I am doing my best here, I have not been faffing about with this for 38 months for the fun of it.

 

Lastly, an Australian neuro doc said that holds of 4-6 weeks is necessary for some to avoid suffering... he said some can taper in 1-2 years, some 2-3 years but he said that, sadly, some individuals need to taper for 6 years... it's a long time but he said it minimizes the suffering and said that we did not have to suffer as much as we do if we taper slow enough and use good holds... he also said that if we did not get stable after 2 weeks and started to feel worse, then to go BACK as the brain simply wasn't ready for another cut... sometimes it isn't... I guess this is what we call a "wall".

 

Seems to me that my own key to not only freedom and a somewhat happy life is to taper small and use 3 week holds and taper small again... sometimes using 6 week holds...

 

I am sure there is a way out of this and a way to live life whilst reducing also but the downside is that it takes years and years.

 

I suppose to be free of this crap at the end of it all would be an almighty victory... but it has to be said, the thought of reinstating and getting on with life seems far, far better at times... then again, what's a few more years in the grand scheme of things?

 

 

 

 

[[la...]]

I have talked to many people about micro tapering and I have never been told to not hold. With that being said I have been doing this for over a year and have improved in many many areas and feel so much better. But then again we are all different, I never drank and was not on any other medications, I never crossed over and have only dealt with klonopin. who knows what our differences in chemistry and medication uses affects our tapers and CNS.

 

I tired to cut and hold and it did not work, had to go back and start over and it is more than a year later and I have reduced past my failed level of before plus feeling so much better and lost many of my symptoms. You just never know, we are all different and not one method should be looked down on because it didn't work for someone.

[[In...]]

Well,

 

Laura, I'll agree with that. No one method of tapering should be "looked down" on over another.

 

And for sure, we are all so different. If we weren't, there would be one "surefire" way of doing this, and we'd all be doing it.

 

And I'll just add because I have first hand knowledge myself, it was a strongly endorsed practice on the former benzodetoxtecovery site to regularly disdain and discourage "the hold" as unnecessary because the receptors could supposedly upregulate daily if people could just find the right amount to microtaper daily.

 

But I myself have not heard that either here on BB. Which I do not think Oscar was referring to. My opinion of course, but I've been on that site myself, and while "no holds" may work for some, it doesn't seem they work for everyone.

[[os...]]

 

 

The whole notion of finding a "sweet spot" is ridiculous in as much as this changes all the time as we get lower and lower in dose, the amount of times I heard "make your cut smaller" and you know, it pretty much works to a point but then when your daily cut is so small you cannot physically make it any smaller, then there is nowhere left to go when that tiny cut no longer works on a daily basis, the only thing that is left is using holds to try and stabilize.

 

Even if I could taper daily non stop now (which I couldn't as I would start to feel withdrawals at day 5 and 6) but if I could, I wouldn't because there is no way of knowing when you have gone past your ability to heal... then what happens is withdrawals start up and it can be quite a nasty experience and the only way (in my own experience) was to updose a little and wait it out.

 

At least with Ashton or making smaller cuts, you make the cut and wait it out... it takes all the guesswork out, although Ashton, unfortunately seems to be too harsh for most at the lower numbers although I am starting to feel that anything else is avoidance in many ways... it seems to be possible to taper the last mgs without too much suffering but it also seems to be hugely hit and miss with lots of walls at various stages... it's just a matter of when really... I don't believe there is any easy way off these drugs, a daily taper might mitigate a lot of suffering and when it works, it seems to work well but trying to time it in sync with the healing is very hard to do at times.

 

I would choose microtaper every time over Ashton BUT it's more than likely not going to save any time... I think we all have our own individual healing time frames and if your taper, whatever method you choose, is not close to your healing rate, then the post recovery may take awhile longer.

 

Example; if your own healing time frame is 3 years and you taper for 1.5 years, chances are there will be 1.5 years left to heal... that's my personal view, I could be wrong but this is pretty much what I think... this would explain why many on this site that took a year or two years to taper were not healed at zero... it seems to me that most get the healing going at 3-4 years... so, if a taper is anywhere near the 3-4 year mark for the longer term users, chances are a good portion of healing will have taken place during the taper, which, theoretically, should shorten the post withdrawal recovery... yet even so, it seems that post any taper, it more than likely takes 8-12 months to recover fully... so, a long and slow taper saves no time but merely makes the withdrawal just that little bit more bearable... as to the acute phase post a very slow taper to zero, who knows? One would need to ask Bart or Diaz-Pam about the dreaded acute phase and what happened or did not happen there... Jana Hill told me that we step off at zero well if we are feeling well when we get there... which kind of makes sense really.

 

 

[[da...]]

Oscar,

 

I am not a fan of miicrotaper as I think you never stabilise during one.

I posted on another topic some diagrams that I came up with calculating the alf time and concentration of the drug in your blood. For clonazepam someone reaches the current dose concentration after 10-12 days. Therefore a taper with holds of three weeks makes more sence. With a microtaper that will take a life time.

Look at my signature.

Last cut was 33% of the current dose and the symptoms were less than before what makes me think it was more the current dossage that was important. Since I kept holds of 16 days thiks got better. This weekend while haveing a road trip we realised that is the first time in two years that we are feer free. Both of us were relaxed and happy sign that thinks kept improving for quite a while.

[[al...]]

This post has made me realize just how utterly disoriented I am regarding how to remove these drugs from my system. I thought a micro would be the most humane/ less symptomatic course of action. Now I'm not so sure. Looking at my dose and length of time on it (1mg of that K was added this May during a hospital mishap), I'm probably looking at 6 years, if not more.

Please don't misconstrue what I say, I absolutely would take all the time in the world if I knew I wouldn't be in that much (relative) pain during the micro. The fact is nobody knows. K and all benzos are unpredictable and there is no guarantee. I am already in pain as it is due to chronic insomnia that began this May and will not vanish despite the consumption of any drug. Honestly, if I knew it was not tolerance based, I would simply continue with my life, especially at this point, where I'm on the verge of losing the roof over my head.

I can kiss my teaching career goodbye and what's worse, my depleted savings could have gone towards grad school. No family, all dead. And I'm supposed to go through more pain with w/d just to be able to function like a human being? I'm quite aware that this DOES sound negative and for that I apologize. But it certainly does not alter my reality.

 

Thank you, Oscar, and again, apologies for momentarily appropriating your space.

[[os...]]

 

Hi alizarin,

 

Post away, that's what the site is for, I vent on here plenty because this is not at all easy at times. I agree, the time frame is ridiculous but I have got to the stage now where I am simply too scared to cut bigger to get off... OK, I might stabilize if I took a bigger cut but then again, I might wind up in such severe withdrawal that I need to back up or worse, go to hospital... I don't want to be a burden on my friend that looks after things at home... I am more functional now but any attempt to speed my taper up would probably be disastrous.

 

The time frame kills me at times and yet, sometimes I am able to reel it in and live in the present, at least doing it this way I am able to maintain some semblance of a life sometimes... that is why I think holds are important, to allow the brain to not just catch up but to have a breather also but everyone has to choose their own path getting off this crud.

 

The thing that irritates me is the vagueness of whether or not we do much healing whilst tapering, seems to me that people have differing opinions on this but regardless, I am sure if one tapers slowly to zero, this is pretty much over... no taper can last forever I suppose and if we can maintain some quality of life whilst doing so, I guess it's worth it... the thing is, if we are sensitive, chances are that if we got "free" sooner, we would still have quite a ways to go to heal anyway, I don't think there is a short cut in this crappy journey...

 

I am sorry you are finding life hard, I guess many of us do and yes, the time frame doing this is crazy but we will get our lives back and not be chained to this stuff any longer... I have had a full window and life sure felt better than being on this stuff, there is a lot to gain from doing this also, better hearing, better vision, a happier life, more energy, clearer eyes, more health, more clarity, more emotion... it's worth the fight to be human again in this life as opposed to being a chemically dependant zombie... although even I admit, there are times when I want to take the easy route out but then I tell myself I will never be able to look at myself and know I am free of all drugs and that is something I want so bad it hurts... to wake up one day healed from this will feel like heaven on Earth... I think it will be worth it, they say it is anyway.

 

 

[[os...]]

Oscar,

 

I am not a fan of miicrotaper as I think you never stabilise during one.

I posted on another topic some diagrams that I came up with calculating the alf time and concentration of the drug in your blood. For clonazepam someone reaches the current dose concentration after 10-12 days. Therefore a taper with holds of three weeks makes more sence. With a microtaper that will take a life time.

Look at my signature.

Last cut was 33% of the current dose and the symptoms were less than before what makes me think it was more the current dossage that was important. Since I kept holds of 16 days thiks got better. This weekend while haveing a road trip we realised that is the first time in two years that we are feer free. Both of us were relaxed and happy sign that thinks kept improving for quite a while.

 

I agree on the above points that I highlighted in bold.

 

I don't think one is ever stable in a microtaper either, not really stable... I have had good stretches in my taper but I think holds are important to get stable for sure... I have held 4 weeks only once and I must admit, I thought I was stable-ish at 3 weeks after a rough time but I hung on and a week later, I was like "whoa, a bit of peace, this is what stable should feel like!!!"

 

A crazy part of me still finds holds a pain in some ways though as there is always the inclination to get moving on down, sometimes just being stuck on a taper can cause some anxiety... have to let that stuff go though and learn acceptance and patience... and more patience.

 

I don't have the courage to make a substantial cut now... so I use a few days micro cuts and then I hold... I seem to even feel them these days... but I know I would feel a lot worse if I cut x5 more...

 

Like I said earlier in a post on here, I am going to set up a chart in my kitchen where I make my doses and count the days as follows:

 

CUT DAY:

DAYS FEELING THE CUT THE MOST:

DAYS TO FEEL IMPROVEMENT:

DAYS TO FEEL STABLE:

 

I will fill this in religiously and get a real picture of each taper and how long I am feeling it for, how long it takes to start to feel better and how much longer until I stabilize... this will give me a visual as my worst fear is when in withdrawal mode, I fear I won't come out of it again... I think this is common with many of us, I thought if I had a visual chart which is proof that I DO come out then it may calm some of those fears, just telling myself doesn't seem to work... every time I think "this is it for me"...

 

I think if I could learn not to be so afraid I would make slightly bigger cuts, more suffering maybe but it seems most get stable after awhile, if we did not get stable, nobody would ever get off this stuff would they?

 

 

[[be...]]

personally, i love the microtaper and i especially enjoy being in the 'sweet spot.' when i was tapering .054 mgs. of valium per day my symptoms were constant sternum pressure and constant muscle rigidity. but nothing truly incapacitating and nothing  i couldn't 'tuff' out to make it to the next day. now that i have backed off a little to tapering .046 mgs. per day, i have ZERO symptoms. 'sweeeeeet spot' to be in....

[[da...]]

Oscar,

 

I used to keep a daily diary last year and making diagrams with variation of symptoms over time. It did not really help me to draw any conclusions besides the obvious ones after each cut.

What I observed this year that the whole game changed under 2mg valium equivalent combined with lots of sun during the summer and lots of physical exercise. Right now my husband is doing so well that I am scared what he will think in case of a wave.

I do not want to push you to cut too much but I was really afraid about the end of the taper and it is going amazingly well in our case.

[[os...]]

Oscar,

 

I used to keep a daily diary last year and making diagrams with variation of symptoms over time. It did not really help me to draw any conclusions besides the obvious ones after each cut.

What I observed this year that the whole game changed under 2mg valium equivalent combined with lots of sun during the summer and lots of physical exercise. Right now my husband is doing so well that I am scared what he will think in case of a wave.

I do not want to push you to cut too much but I was really afraid about the end of the taper and it is going amazingly well in our case.

 

I don't know... I have a feeling things will start to get better at 2 mgs but right now, knowing how the derealization and anxiety gets me at the moment, I fear a bigger cut would have me freaking out and in panic... I know it won't kill me but even the thought of a bigger cuts scares the hell out of me.

 

I can just about do bad anxiety but I don't want to do the terror stuff again, it really was bad when I got slammed that time... OK, it did not kill me but I was really traumatized by that...

 

I think if I were to cut bigger I would have terror and a panic attack for sure, then I would be buzzing all over for weeks... I could talk myself into doing it but when feeling like that it's hard to cope.

 

 

[[da...]]

The cut on Aug 7 was 25% of the current dose. As I wrote on another topic I am keeping the same amount for the cut recently so now going lower the percentage increases. It was a hard one. Few nights with little sleep and increased anxiety. My husband had already planned to go camping with his brother for an extended weekend and also to have two nights in another camping with old Friends that are doing every year a party for craft beer lovers. It was the first time when he was going somewhere without me. I was scared to death but tried not to show. His brother do not know anything about wd.

When he left he was not feeling well at all. I gave him to have for emergency e Valerian to take at night.He took it for the first two nights and after that combined with being outside, biking, sun, he started feeling better. We spoke on the phone every night. First days multiple times, last ones less.

He came back feeling well and more confident.

Last cut we made it was 33% percent out of current dose and he almost had no symptoms.

I realise he is not fully cured as he still has sleep problems, stress sensitivity, but he seems to improve constantly.

I also think that at the low dosage the cuts depend of ones sensitivity to the drug.

Keep fingers crossed for the next one which will be 50% of the current dose. Even if I would want to slow it down I cannot because, for the first time during a year my husband became very interested about the taper and dosage (until now it was just me playing the drug dealer crushing pills and making doses per day) He is really excited being off by mid September.

[[os...]]

 

That is fantastic Dark Shadow.

 

I hope the next cut is kind also.

[[de...]]

well I have read through all this thread..and not sure what to say or think..I was on 4mg of k for 28 yrs...i am now 55 yrs old..started my taper in June and as of my next cut i will be at 3.25 mg..would that be call a micro taper? I have been tapering 4% and holding for 2 weeks..the only real side effect so far that i have had is my eyes..like looking through a fish bowl..but i have been sick the whole time i have been on k..i was misdiagnosed and put on xanax for 5 yrs then they crossed me over to k not sure why..but i didnt have the anxiety, palps, fuzzy head, dizziness ect until i was on the med..so i would have to ask have i been in withdrawals all these years..and will i ever heal..and will it be easier for me to get off cause of being sick anyway..i am totally functional as i guess i am on autopilot..run many hours a week..but i do notice that with the tapering i am awake more like i dont fall asleep like i did..its normal now..i can sit down and watch something on tv and actually not fall asleep..i have had been tested for everything..and was told i had ptsd, anxiety disorder with lots of phobias, chronic fatigue syndrome, lyme disease and all i really have is a small heart murmur not the dangerous kind, regurg small of a small valve in my heart..also nothing significant..and thats it..and they always told me you have beautiful blood..

but after reading your posts is there hope for full recovery after all these years??? could i go faster??? how do you find your sweet spot for tapering and whats enough and not to much to keep functional??

when i first read your original post it scared me..more than just a little..it almost made me say what chance do i have..with the struggles i see on here with people on like .50 of k..and just for a short time...i wish i just had some answers ..i know theres no rhyme nor reason to any of this getting off of it..but somedays i need more than just hope..i dont plan on switching over to v or anything else as why would i put another drug in my body to then have to get off of that..

so will keep watching this thread to see what everyone has to say..and thanks for starting this thread what you say does make sense.

 

deep