Cross-Over to Valium Support Thread

[[mr...]]

I know Overcomer, I just don't know.

A doctor can only make a more educated guess but can't tell the outcome.

I feel so angry with the doctors. They are in line to give me more ssri or refill my jar but no help.

Who knows when enough is enough?

I won't be off this for 4 years if I take 30 mgr.

Who can do this? When will it end.

 

I apologize to everyone in advance for the ugliness of my posts. If I can't put it out here, I Will lose my mind.

Mom,

Many start out at high dose and cut slowly until they feel better and then, they do bigger cuts.

Don't look at how long you will tape, but focus on your sx's.

 

[Guest [Mo...]]

E, I honestly don't remember anything what I say or said right now.

And I'm sure that on better days, I think I want to try to stick it out.

And on days like today, I would take 50 mgr if I had to.

 

I at least would try to updose to 20 to start with.

But I'm scared at the same time that I can keep updosing all I want, and that it will never be enough.

These drugs are designed to make us feel nothing. Anxiety etc.

But they also cut me off from all my feelings and ME.

I'm scared that I lose myself even more on more Valium. My head is already a dead hunk of nothing. I feel nothing for anybody. And all I can do is cry. I feel the Valium is making me more depressed.

 

I tried to find doctors. I'm sure if I would look even more there might be one NP to be willing. But what do they know? How do they know what ik supposed to be on?

Some say ride it out, others say 25 then some even 40.

 

I'm just not sure what to do anymore. I have only been on this stuff for 6 months.

I don't know anymore....I'm sorry if its confusing.

 

JJ, I know I'm " already" at 1000 posts and I have not even been here so long.

 

Most of my posts were questions , I needed to know all I could.

And many of them were reaching out to others too. I didn't just post this kind of crap like today all the time...

 

 

Either way, I'm stuck today. I just mentioned to maybe not post if it is annoying people.

Because I keep saying the same. I don't know....don't know what else to say to that.

 

Would a one time updose on days like this help or not?

 

Meo, I am trying not to think of the length but in a state like this, nothing is rational and the duration is what I think of. How will I do this for so long? How? Without a guarantee that updosing will be the right choice for SURE. I updosed with 5 mgr already and it didn't do anything.

[[mr...]]

Meo, I am trying not to think of the length but in a state like this, nothing is rational and the duration is what I think of. How will I do this for so long? How? Without a guarantee that updosing will be the right choice for SURE. I updosed with 5 mgr already and it didn't do anything.

Hi mom,

I don't understand what you are saying and I have no idea what dosing you are at.

[[On...]]

Mom, call every nurse practitioner within range of you. I found the better ones BY FAR are not specialists in psychiatry.  They have been taught the same baloney that psychiatrists have, which is what the benzo-makers want them to believe. Nurse practitioners, for the most part, LISTEN much better than MDs do and have more compassion. They also generally a lot more time per patient than MDs. If you or your husband know anyone in your community you can ask, ask around for a NP that is known for listening to patients. That is exactly how I found my best NP and my best MD. Other parents of children are generally good sources for that. Take any print literature you have with you, such as equivalency tables. Take your husband with you (as if I need to say that; I couldn't have made it to any of.my appointments without mine getting me there, getting me in, and getting me back).

 

In the long run, seeing a nurse practitioner is generally more kind on both your nerves and your wallet. You need someone who doesn't feel like they have.to control your every little move. It helps when they see you have a.concerned and responsible husband to help you.

 

Forgive all my periods in the text, still on phone I've never gotten accustomed to. Should never have switched while in the depths of benzo-brain.

 

Good luck. I hope you have success.

[Guest [Mo...]]

Thanks.

Yes, the only person who wanted to switch me to Valium, is my current doctor: she is a NP.

She doesn't mind to listen and takes time for our appointments.

I'm never going to see a psychiatrist again.

I really like my NP but the fact she doesn't want to give me more....that sucks.

She is really great on other stuff. And at least read the Ashton manual and all the stuff I printed out for her.

Now, I might just see her for regular stuff and I am going to talk to a doctor on Tuesday over the phone. He is hours away but people say he knows his Ashton manual....

 

So...hope you all sleep well.

My son is at his very first sleep over tonight.

Im happy for him. He needs some positivity. Usually, I have to pick him up at 9 but no call so far.

So I count this as the first.

[[Sm...]]

Maybe leave out the bit about tapering the ativan as much as you have.

Drs are warier of agreeing to updosing than they are about agreeing to an ashton C/O.

I'd be saying I was on the ativan dose you were on a few months ago and was crossed over to only 15mg and it is making you very sick.

I'm so naughty 

 

P.S I've never actually lied to a Dr yet. I just seem to be advising you to only if you want of course. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

As for the endless question of updosing it is a very hard question to answer and I feel for you having to work it out. The max I've ever had to updose was 8mg when I first got into serious trouble and updosed to my original dose to begin again.

You probably will get relief at higher doses. But as you say there aren't guarantees and there is a long taper. Long tapers that are virtually sx free are a hell of a lot better than tapers you can't live with.

Valium does emotionally deaden you. It is something I've struggled to come to terms with. It does get less as you taper down.

You are clearly struggling with an understandable depression right now. Depression when life is this hard is understandable. I get depressed when I'm in w/d and thinking the future is bleak even with an SSRI.

Very hard mom... I wish there were easy answers for you...

[Guest [Mo...]]

Meo, I am trying not to think of the length but in a state like this, nothing is rational and the duration is what I think of. How will I do this for so long? How? Without a guarantee that updosing will be the right choice for SURE. I updosed with 5 mgr already and it didn't do anything.

Hi mom,

I don't understand what you are saying and I have no idea what dosing you are at.

 

I was referring to when you said about the dose. And when you said don't focus om the amount but in the xs...

3x 5 mgr.

[[Sm...]]

Just to answer a question Mom from before: one time updoses would help on days like today if you were close to your heal rate. If not they don't do much and can confuse things.

They are good for: finding out whether some updosing will help; knowing if you are close to stable; edging you closer to stable if you are; giving you a bump away from side effects when they pop up over 3 days.

 

Hope you have a better day tomorrow 

[[mr...]]

Meo, I am trying not to think of the length but in a state like this, nothing is rational and the duration is what I think of. How will I do this for so long? How? Without a guarantee that updosing will be the right choice for SURE. I updosed with 5 mgr already and it didn't do anything.

Hi mom,

I don't understand what you are saying and I have no idea what dosing you are at.

 

I was referring to when you said about the dose. And when you said don't focus om the amount but in the xs...

3x 5 mgr.

Hi mom,

I said don't look at the time it will take u to taper, but look at how u feel.

Cutting your dose while tapering is all about how u r feeling whether to cut or not.

 

[Guest [in...]]

Lainey, Im posting this link here as well as on the over 50 thread in case u need it. Its the .75mg c/0 to valium by dr peart

 

http://www.drregpeart.org/Dr%20Peart%20Sample%20Schedules%20with%20Notes%2022Sep06.pdf

[[la...]]

I have that but its so quick and that scares me, That is Dr. Pearts method and I must be an idiot because he says that you can cut .125mgs K with 2.5mg every other day if need be and that would take 16 days. Everytime I write this out I come out with either 12 or 14 days...can someone please write out his schedule with the .125mgsK every other day included in...I know I am a bozo

[Guest [in...]]

well, Im glad u at least could look at dr peart's sch to see what u thought of it. I was def scared to go too fast. How are u feeling about it all?

[[mr...]]

I have that but its so quick and that scares me, That is Dr. Pearts method and I must be an idiot because he says that you can cut .125mgs K with 2.5mg every other day if need be and that would take 16 days. Everytime I write this out I come out with either 12 or 14 days...can someone please write out his schedule with the .125mgsK every other day included in...I know I am a bozo

Hi Lainey,

Not sure exactly what you are asking for, but does this look like what u want?

 

Day 0

.125mg K

.125mg K

.125mg K

Day 1

.125mg K

.125mg K

2.5mg V

Day 2

.125mg K

.125mg K

2.5mg V

Day 3

2.5mg V

.125mg K

2.5mg V

Day 4

2.5mg V

.125mg K

2.5mg V

Day 5

2.5mg V

2.5mg V

2.5mg V

 

 

[[la...]]

NOPE that's not it but thanks. You have to have .125mg K with 2.5mg V at each dose. If you read his schedule and then the note below that says you can slow it down by splitting the doses like this, but I can not come up with 16 days

[Guest [Mo...]]

For those who are interested in what my schedule looked like, here it is:

 

I added 2x 1.25 Valium 5 days prior to starting my c/o. I had to updose a bit, due to bad w/d, especially inter dose troubles. Because of the upcoming switch to Valium, I decided to so this updose with valium and not Ativan.

I started with 4x 0.25 Ativan.

Then added 1.25 Valium to my 11 am and also my 9:30 pm dose.

 

Day 0.          7 am.                      11 am.                    4 pm.                    9:30 pm

                  0.25 A                  0.25 A+ 1.25 V        0.25 Ativan.            0.25 A+ 1.25 V

 

Day 1.        0.25 A.                  0.25 A+ 1.25 V        0.25 A.                  0.125 A+ 2.5 V

Day 2.  Same as day 1

 

Day 3.        0.25 A.                  0.25 A+1.25 V          0.25 A.                    3 V

Day 4.  Same as day 3

 

Day 5.        0.25 A.                  0.125 A+ 2.5 V.        0.25 A.                    3 V

Day 6.  Same as day 5

 

Day 7.        0.25 A.                        3 V.                    0.25 A.                    3 V

day 8.  Same as day 7

 

Day 9.  0.125 A+1.25 V.                3 V.                    0.25 A.                    3 V

Day 10. Same as day 9

 

Day 11.      2 V.                              3 V.                    0.25 A.                    3 V

Day 12.  Same as day 11

 

Day 13.      2 V.                              3 V.                0.125 A+ 1.25 V.        3 V

Day 14  Same as day  13

 

Day 15.      2 V.                              3 V.                    2.5 V.                      3 V

 

No more Ativan!!!!

 

As you can see, I smuggled a bit with the doses. If I would have done the exact equivalents for all, I would have been taking 3.75 V for my 11 am and 9:30 doses. Which would have been 2.5 mgr valium for the 0.25 ativan PLUS the updose i did the previous day.

However, I felt so super sedated and felt that the V was covering for my Wd from Ativan so well, that I took 3 mgr instead and see how that went. I think the temporary updose before the cross over did the trick for me and I was able to drop that a bit while in the process.

 

I also did that for my 7 am dose. If done " correctly" I would have been taking 2.5 Valium which would be the equivalent for 0.25 Ativan.

Again, I felt I could try and fortunately, it worked. It was a bit of a gamble, because I'm very sensitive to any med an had a feeling I could do with a bit less. I don't recommend that to all, by the way. But listen to your body...

 

I'm planning to start a taper somewhere mid march and get stable first. I want to feel as okay as I can before descending the taper ladder. By now, it's clear to me that, how you feel when starting the taper, can determine for a large part how you will feel during the taper. If you take it easy.

 

My taper from 4 to 0.75 Mgr from August 2013 till January 2014 had been waaaay to quick. I was very sick and didn't know it was withdrawal. I just kept cutting away per doctors advice.

I could have save myself a whole lot of trouble. But well, here I am.

 

Good luck all.

 

Lainey this is how I did it. Pearth.

I don't know the equivalent for K to V.

[[mr...]]

NOPE that's not it but thanks. You have to have .125mg K with 2.5mg V at each dose. If you read his schedule and then the note below that says you can slow it down by splitting the doses like this, but I can not come up with 16 days

NOPE that's not it but thanks. You have to have .125mg K with 2.5mg V at each dose. If you read his schedule and then the note below that says you can slow it down by splitting the doses like this, but I can not come up with 16 days

 

Hi Lainey,

Does this look right?

Sorry for the ugly format.

 

Day         9am         3pm         Bedtime

Day 0 .25mg K .25mg K .25mg K

Day 1 .25mg K .25mg K .25mg K, 5mg V

Day 2 .25mg K .25mg K .25mg K, 5mg V

Day 3 .25mg K, 5mg V .25mg K .25mg K, 5mg V

Day 4 .25mg K, 5mg V .25mg K .25mg K, 5mg V

Day 5 .25mg K, 5mg V .25mg K, 5mg V .25mg K, 5mg V

Day 6 .25mg K, 5mg V .25mg K, 5mg V .25mg K, 5mg V

Day 7 .125mg K, 5mg V .125mg K, 5mg V .125mg K, 7.5mg V

Day 8 .125mg K, 5mg V .125mg K, 5mg V .125mg K, 7.5mg V

Day 9 .125mg K, 7.5mg V .125mg K, 5mg V .125mg K, 7.5mg V

Day 10 .125mg K, 7.5mg V .125mg K, 5mg V .125mg K, 7.5mg V

Day 11 .125mg K, 7.5mg V .125mg K, 7.5mg V .125mg K, 7.5mg V

Day 12 .125mg K, 7.5mg V .125mg K, 7.5mg V .125mg K, 7.5mg V

Day 13 .125mg K, 7.5mg V .125mg K, 7.5mg V 10mg V

Day 14 .125mg K, 7.5mg V .125mg K, 7.5mg V 10mg V

Day 15 10mg V .125mg K, 7.5mg V 10mg V

Day 16 10mg V .125mg K, 7.5mg V 10mg V

Day 17 10mg V 10mg V 10mg V

Day 18 10mg V 10mg V 10mg V

 

[[la...]]

NOPE.  still not right; heres what I have as per Ashton

 

week          am                      afternoon                          bedtime

 

  1            .25k                    .25k                                .125k/2.5V

 

  2            .25k                      .25k                                  5V

 

  3        .125k/2.5v                .25k                                  5v

 

  4            5v                        .25k                                  5v

 

  5              5v                    .125k/2.5v                            5v

 

  6            5v                          5v                                      5v

 

Then hold for several weeks before Taper

[[Fr...]]

Ok lainey, I'll give it a go.

 

Day 0: .25mg K | .25mg K | .25mg K

Day 1: .25mg K | .25mg K | .125mg K 2.5mg V

Day 2: Same as day 1

Day 3: Same as day 1

Day 4: .25mg K | .25mg K | 5mg V

Day 5: Same as day 4

Day 6: Same as day 4

Day 7: .125mg K 2.5mg V | .25mg K | 5mg V

Day 8: Same as day 7

Day 9: Same as day 7

Day 10: 5mg V | .25mg K | 5mg V

Day 11: Same as day 10

Day 12: Same as day 10

Day 13: 5mg V | .125mg K 2.5mg V | 5mg V

Day 14: Same as day 13

Day 15: Same as day 14

Day 16: 5mg V | 5mg V | 5mg V

 

Hope that's what you were looking for

[[la...]]

Approximate equivalence for crossover 1 mg K = 20 mg V – Prof. C. H. Ashton

Day 9am 3.pm Bedtime

Day 0 0.25mg K 0.25mg K 0.25mg K

Day 1 0.25mg K 0.25mg K 5mg of V

Day 2 Same as Day 1

Day 3 5mg of V 0.25mg K 5mg of V

Day 4 Same as Day 3

Day 5 5mg of V 5mg of V 5mg of V

Day 6 Same as Day 5

If sleep is a problem, try:

Day 7 4mg of V 4mg of V 7mg of V

(Alternately, in the above schedule, the person can split their Clonazepam into

parts as small as 0.125 mg and substitute each of those parts with 2.5mg Diazepam

every other day. The crossover would then take 16 days.)

 

this is Pearts plan now how does splitting the dose to .125mg/2.5mg V every other day come out to 16 days???? I can not figure this out

[Guest [in...]]

I know, Lainey, I read that and reread that, and I don't know either. 

[[mr...]]

Hi Lainey,

Sorry, for all the wrong translations.

I am trying one last time.

Is this right?

 

  Day          9am                  3pm                        Bedtime

Day 0  .25mg K                  .25mg K                    .25mg K

Day 1  .25mg K                  .25mg K                    .25mg K, 2.5mg V

Day 2  .25mg K                  .25mg K                    .25mg K, 2.5mg V

Day 3  .25mg K, 2.5mg V      .25mg K                    .25mg K, 2.5mg V

Day 4  .25mg K, 2.5mg V      .25mg K                    .25mg K, 2.5mg V

Day 5  .25mg K, 2.5mg V      .25mg K, 2.5mg V      .25mg K, 2.5mg V

Day 6  .25mg K, 2.5mg V      .25mg K, 2.5mg V      .25mg K, 2.5mg V

Day 7  .25mg K, 2.5mg V      .25mg K, 2.5mg V      .125mg K, 5mg V

Day 8  .25mg K, 2.5mg V      .25mg K, 2.5mg V      .125mg K, 5mg V

Day 9  .125mg K, 5mg V    .25mg K, 2.5mg V    .125mg K, 5mg V

Day 10  .125mg K, 5mg V  .25mg K, 2.5mg V    .125mg K, 5mg V

Day 11  .125mg K, 5mg V  .125mg K, 5mg V  .125mg K, 5mg V

Day 12  .125mg K, 5mg V  .125mg K, 5mg V  .125mg K, 5mg V

Day 13  .125mg K, 5mg V  .125mg K, 5mg V  5mg V

Day 14  .125mg K, 5mg V  .125mg K, 5mg V  5mg V

Day 15  5mg V                      .125mg K, 5mg V  5mg V

Day 16  5mg V                      .125mg K, 5mg V  5mg V

Day 17  5mg V                      5mg V                      5mg V

 

 

 

[[Fr...]]

Lainey I really don't think it matters that much. I did fine on an 11 day crossover. The ones being outlined for you are FINE. If you want a faster crossover approach, the ones Mrmteo or I have written out should work out fine provided that you're stable when you start them. . . You could just be looking at a typo.

 

You really won't know what's gonna happen til you try.

[Guest [in...]]

Lainey I really don't think it matters that much. I did fine on an 11 day crossover. The ones being outlined for you are FINE. If you want a faster crossover approach, the ones Mrmteo or I have written out should work out fine provided that you're stable when you start them. . . You could just be looking at a typo.

 

You really won't know what's gonna happen til you try.

You know, that is sooo true. Just get on over to the valium! I think you will feel better, I really do!

[[la...]]

so the quicker the better is what you are saying, as far as the c/o is concerned?

 

I guess I will ride out the .125k w/2.5v at bedtime for the rest of the week and then next week when I go to all 5mgs at bedtime I might c/o one of the other doses to .125k w/ 2.5mg V at the same time

 

I just hate feeling like total crap all day long.

 

mrmeo, thank for the good old American try but you weren't getting that I take .25mg K 3xs a day. so when I cross over I can't take .25mg K along with 5mg V at the same time. 5mg V = .25mg K.... So I either just reduce the K to .125k and add 2.5V =.25mg k  at a dose at a time or I just substitute one dose of .25k with 5 v. 

 

I get scared because I think it was Mom who c/o to fast and look at how shes doing now

[Guest [Mo...]]

Lainey, don't forget that I was in severe Wd before crossing over amd that I did not cross over to the right amount of Valium for ME.

Frotob was able to do so, because he was not experiencing Wd xs to the point where he could not function...I did.

So, don't take me as a example for the Perth  method, because I did not do it correctly.

 

If you want to do this, just go by his schedule.