Z-Drug Support Group (Lunesta, Imovane, Zimovane, Ambien, Sonata, Zopiclone)

[[ja...]]

Hi - i hope i'm posting this right--it seems there is no way to post a new topic, or anyway, i don't see an option to do that. It just says Reply.  So hopefully this is OK.

 

i've been on Ambien/zolpidem for 20 years.  Right now, i'm taking 27mg per night in two separate doses.  At bedtime i take 10mg Ambien and 7mg Ambien CR (i break a 12.5mg tab in half). 5 hours later, because i wake up and can't go back to sleep (high tolerance) i take another 10mg around 4 or 5am.  Every night, for several months now.  i gradually worked my way up from lower doses.

 

i saw a doctor for the first time today,  a specialist in addiction medicine. I had a long consultation session.  He said what he would recommend would be stopping the Ambien, all of it, no taper, and switching to 10mg Valium at bedtime.  He recommended another 2.5mg during the day, which could be if i wake up and can't go back to sleep.  He is recommending a total of 12.5mg Valium to replace 26mg Ambien.  He is available by phone every day and night, and depending on the effects of this starting dosage, changes can be made. 

 

He said that usually it takes about 2 weeks to be completely off the Valium--stop the Ambien totally and start the 12.5mg Valium and when the Valium reaches 'steady state,' which is however many days it takes to build up in the circulation so that the body is getting the full effect of it, he said about 3 days, then start tapering off the Valium and usually it takes most people who do this 2 weeks. 

 

I was kind of surprised, i mean the idea of being off all sleep meds in two weeks is actually a breathtaking idea to me. i can't really grasp it.  I thought i would be micro tapering Ambien for a long long time, and was worried about this.  It was good to talk to someone who has experience doing exactly what i want to do, as well as helping people with pure benzo withdrawal, and he came highly recommended.

 

But after 20 years on Ambien, the idea of stopping it abruptly scares me.  I do think that if i was taking the whole 12.5mg or 15mg at bedtime of Valium, i would be more confident. But when i think of it, my bedtime dose of Ambien has been about 17mg, so taking 10mg Valium at bedtime is actually more than the approximate equivalence of 10mg Ambien = 5mg Valium, so i guess it makes sense, although my morning dose of 10mg would, based on equivalency, be replaced by 5mg, but my doctor is recommending 2.5mg.  I was asking questions about this and he was saying that in his experience, he believed this was the way to start off.

 

I would appreciate any feedback anyone here has on their own experiences or experiences of others they have heard about with this particular approach to stopping Z drugs, or things anyone has heard about doing this or not doing this.  Is this something that other people do?  Is it safe, is it doable?  Are there good reasons not to do this. 

 

I can't begin to say how good it sounds to me to just stop the Ambien, replace with Valium, and within a couple of weeks, or so, be off the Valium. I realize that i will not sleep well for a while. 

 

1993, before i started Ambien, i had been taking Valium for sleep for 20 years.  Right toward the end, i started getting tolerance and steeply increased my dose from 10-15mg to 25-30, in a couple of weeks time, and the more i increased, the less effect it had, and then on 10/1/1993, i went cold turkey off the Valium because there didn't seem to be any point in taking it, it wasn't helping me sleep anymore.  I was on a two week vacation from work so i just did it. I never even heard of tapering, i thought people just stop like in the movies.  It was not so bad.  the most intense days were the 3rd and 4th, and late on the 4th day, the worst of it subsided. Other than not so much sleep, the numerous withdrawal symptoms stopped and faded away. But i didn't sleep so good for months and then, my doctor suggested Ambien for sleep, and that's how it started, though i didn't take it often in the beginning, maybe 3 or 4 times a month.

 

Anyway, based on those experiences i kind of know what to expect, and although i don't welcome giving up the control over being able to go to sleep at night, i would rather get these meds out of my system and begin a process of healing from them.  I just didn't know how to do it, how to go off the Ambien. I was on Lunesta 3mg which is roughly 7.5 zopiclone, for a year and a half WITH the Ambien. I tapered off of that in a couple of months time, January and February of this year, and that was a great relief. Being on both of them was confusing.  Anyway, but i'm on way more Ambien than i was on Zopiclone, and i was using the Ambien to basically avoid withdrawal symptoms from the Lunesta, so i didn't lose any sleep during that process.  Now, i have been facing cutting down the Ambien without anything to ease the changes, but then i met this doctor today and he has recommended switching to Valium  and then tapering off the Valium.

 

Any info or thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.

[[Ca...]]

Jaw444

 

I can't grasp all of the details of the timeline but I do believe that a crossover is a good idea because of the leveling out of the dose from a short half life to a really long one

.

if I am understanding you correctly that once you crossover her wants to do a 2 week taper?

Then why bother crossing over at all. Something isn't adding up.

 

See my signature; I did a 3 week taper from zop. 21 mg.

That is not a taper it is a c/t basically .

I am 2 1/2 years off now and only just starting to be able to expect about 7 hours of broken sleep .

 

My unrealistic expectations of healing quickly stopped me from taking the Valium root.

I wish that I would have crossed over and done a taper.

 

Each person is unique , but I would have very serious misgivings about the proposed taper length. Did you possibly misunderstand something or maybe I am not getting something.

 

Other than that this sounds like a knowledgeable doctor. Rare to even find one.

 

Carol

[[ja...]]

Carol

thanks for the reply.

i too was surprised and confused by the recommendation of the doctor. Actually, he didn't recommend the two week taper from Valium.  He said "it usually takes two weeks."  And i asked for clarification, did he mean two weeks to taper off the Valium--because i had already clarified with him that he was not recommending tapering the Zolpidem, he was recommending just going off the zolpidem and onto the Valium, just switching. That confused me, i didn't expect that, so we got that clarified, that he did mean that, and that what usually takes two weeks, is tapering off the Valium.  By 'it usually takes two weeks,' i assumed he was implying that this is his clinical experience because he's an addiction medicine specialist and works with people who are withdrawing from meds a lot. 

 

I found him on a site called BenzoDocs, or Benzo Docs, it's a list of doctors who will help people withdraw from benzos, submitted by patients to the list for posting so that others can have the info. It's international.  This doctor happened to be in my area, a few miles from where i live, so i went to see him. That's all i know about him. He presented very well, caring, available for support, he said he's available 24/7 for phone calls.  He said a lot of the right things, like, "everybody's different" and "there's no rush" (to complete withdrawal).  He was just saying it usually takes two weeks. i don't know if he meant at any dose level, or if he was talking about the dose level i'm at. 

 

The substitution he recommended was 10mg Valium for my bed time dose, which is more than the equivalent dose for Zolpidem 17mg that i've been taking at bed time.  But, the morning dose substitution is only 2.5mg, which is less than the equivalent of my 10mg morning Zolpidem--the equivalent dose would be 5mg Valium.  Anyway, he didn't actually say that the 2.5mg was to be a morning dose. He just said to take it during the day, he said it was to help with withdrawal symptoms. 

 

In all the years i've been taking medication for sleep, 40 years, i've never taken anything during the day. It's only for sleep, not anxiety.  I took Valium for 20 years, ending in 1993, for sleep, but not during the day.  Since then, it's been Z drugs for sleep. 

 

So i am researching this now. I actually have another doctor to see next week, a psychiatrist that i was referred to by the psychologist i am seeing to work on my sleep issues and meds issues. He said that this psychiatrist works with people and helps them to get off of medications. So i will have two doctors to compare. 

 

There is so much information out there, on BenzoBuddies and on the web generally, it's overwhelming. It's impossible to digest. 

 

I just hope i can truly be off sleep meds in the near future.  when he said 2 weeks, i was in shock, i couldn't absorb the idea, but now it's sunk in--i do not want to go too fast, and as he said 'there's no rush.'  but the idea that it's a possibility does brighten the future a bit.

 

As far as healing goes, what you've experienced sounds right to me, realistic.  I went cold turkey off of a 20 year Valium habit in 1993 and the withdrawals were not that bad. i mean, they lasted about 4 days, and the 3rd and 4th day were pretty bad, pretty intense, and if that had gone on indefinitely, yeah, that would've been really bad, but it only lasted two days, so, that's what i mean by not bad.  The only thing that didn't become normal was sleep, it was like what you describe, it took about 2 years to have fairly reliable quantity and quality of sleep, although still broken into pieces, but that wasn't a problem, as long as i was getting enough.  i was supplementing with Zolpidem by then, but only maybe 4 or 5 times a month in those days. 

 

i had been taking Valium for 20 years so i didn't have very high expectations for sleep, but still, i did get frustrated when i had a few days in a row of  minimal sleep, and that's how i ended up taking Zolpdiem.

 

Anyway, so my expectations about sleep are not high.  I am hoping i can adapt to that and find various ways to get the most out of whatever sleep i get.  I hate being at the place i'm at right now where i haven't started the withdrawal yet, and i'm just very scared, scared of taking the step and giving up having control over falling asleep, for however short a time it may be.  But once the process gets started, i think i will feel better because i've waited so long to be getting off those poison meds. Maybe i will be able to remember things again.  And no more bizarre altered states of consciousness in the morning.  Those are some expectations i have for healing, but i am prepared for limited results, especially in the first year. 

[[Br...]]

The substitution he recommended was 10mg Valium for my bed time dose, which is more than the equivalent dose for Zolpidem 17mg that i've been taking at bed time. But, the morning dose substitution is only 2.5mg, which is less than the equivalent of my 10mg morning Zolpidem--the equivalent dose would be 5mg Valium. Anyway, he didn't actually say that the 2.5mg was to be a morning dose. He just said to take it during the day, he said it was to help with withdrawal symptoms.

 

In all the years i've been taking medication for sleep, 40 years, i've never taken anything during the day. It's only for sleep, not anxiety. I took Valium for 20 years, ending in 1993, for sleep, but not during the day. Since then, it's been Z drugs for sleep.

 

 

 

Hello Jaw.  My attention span is affected by benzo withdrawal so I haven't been able to read and retain everything in your detailed posts but I read the feedback from your your new addiction doc. 

 

If I was in your position I would be generally happy with that advice.

 

The proposed daytime dose is to prevent interdose withdrawal which is very common with z-drugs such as zolpidem.  IDW can increase your dependency and tolerance and give you more unpleasant symptoms, so any daytime dose (of diazepam or z-drug) is worth doing.  The "ideal" situation is multiple dosing of equally sized doses at evenly spaced intervals.  However that may be unattainable because you may end up getting too little benzo/z-drug at night for sleeping.  Therefore any daytime dose for a zolpidem user can be beneficial.

 

If I was in your position the only things I would note are:

 

(1) I would take 5mg diazepam in the daytime rather than 2.5mg because I prefer to cross over before reducing the total daily dose.

 

(2) If I wasn't feeling well as I crossed from zolpidem to diazepam then I would take longer than 2 weeks.  Diazepam needs time to build up.

 

 

[[Ca...]]

Jaw

 

With the long half life of Valium you shouldnt experience interdose withdrawal at all.

In fact it doesn't sound like you are even having interdose withdrawal now.

 

I had this so bad that I was splitting my doses up to take every 3 hours.

It was a huge nightmare.

 

The very first symptom that I got from zopiclone was the poor brain function cog fog.

I had no idea that it was being caused by it and I went to the doctor and was told that I was depressed.

So started 2 years of a downhill slide until I figured out wha was truly wrong with me."withdrawal"

 

Braban , this doctor wants to do a 2 week taper! Not crossover.

 

Jaw

Well, I would certainly watch for withdrawal symptoms besides lack of sleep.

 

maybe you will be one of the lucky ones, since you are not having many of the symptoms of withdrawal.

 

Good luck

Carol

[[Br...]]

Jaw

 

With the long half life of Valium you shouldnt experience interdose withdrawal at all.

In fact it doesn't sound like you are even having interdose withdrawal now.

 

I had this so bad that I was splitting my doses up to take every 3 hours.

It was a huge nightmare.

 

The very first symptom that I got from zopiclone was the poor brain function cog fog.

I had no idea that it was being caused by it and I went to the doctor and was told that I was depressed.

So started 2 years of a downhill slide until I figured out wha was truly wrong with me."withdrawal"

 

Braban , this doctor wants to do a 2 week taper! Not crossover.

 

Jaw

Well, I would certainly watch for withdrawal symptoms besides lack of sleep.

 

maybe you will be one of the lucky ones, since you are not having many of the symptoms of withdrawal.

 

Good luck

Carol

 

Hiya Carol.  I re-read the bit in Jaw's post about "two weeks" a couple of times and have to admit that even now I'm less clear about what the doc said.  I assumed something which Jaw wrote about what her doc told her was a typo because it didn't seem sensible.  Now that I've checked, I'm still confused!    I thought the second reference to Valium (below) was a typo for zolpidem.  I blame benzos for causing cog fog!

 

 

Jaw wrote:  "i too was surprised and confused by the recommendation of the doctor. Actually, he didn't recommend the two week taper from Valium.  He said "it usually takes two weeks."  And i asked for clarification, did he mean two weeks to taper off the Valium--because i had already clarified with him that he was not recommending tapering the Zolpidem, he was recommending just going off the zolpidem and onto the Valium, just switching. That confused me, i didn't expect that, so we got that clarified, that he did mean that, and that what usually takes two weeks, is tapering off the Valium."

 

 

 

[[ci...]]

I am glad I found this post on Z Drugs. I was on ambien 10mg for 2 years. After 2 years, I had began to experience excruitiating back/thoracic, right shouler blade pain, numbness in limbs, intense body burning, vibrations sensation thru buttocks. Went to numerous doctors, had MRIs, CT Scans, blood work, all negative. Even had my gallbladder out, but the pain continued. Finally, thru my own research, I discovered ambien was the cause of my problems. I did not know I should taper, so I went cold turkey on 3/24/14, but the back pain went away w/i 4 days.

 

Now I am almost 7 weeks from cold turkey and suffering from horrible WD sxs: intense body burning, numbness, anxiety, and panic. I never had anxiety or panic issues until WD from Ambien. I am even afraid to be alone. My doctors do not believe ambien could cause these serious WD sxs. I went to a Psychiatrist not for meds but to learn how to cope with the anxiety. He did not believe my sxs were from ambien WD, and diagnosed me with Panic disorder and PTSD. For now, I am taking neurontin 900 mg for the neuropathis pain, I really don't know if it helps or not? I am so afraid, I feel so alone but have a very supportive husband. I just expected to see some lessening of the sxs, especially the burning.  My only resource for info is BB since doctors are clueless.

 

Here are a few questions, if someone would be so kind to respond?

1. Will the burning go away?

2. What is the average recovery time?

3. Does neurontin hinder the recovery process?

 

Any response would be appreciated. Thank you.

[[Ca...]]

The burning will go away. I still have it occasionally but not like it used to be.

For me it has been a long grueling fight back. ambien is the same as zopiclone. That is what I took. See my signature below.

 

Glad that you found us here.

Carol

[[ci...]]

Thanks, sometimes I just need reassurance, and BB is the only place I can get it.

[[Ca...]]

Cindy

I still have brain vibrations and ... Well... Still some anxiety and some depression. Sleep has gotten some better. I wake up every hour or so but I am at least sleeping on my own.

 

it will get better.

 

Carol

[[ci...]]

Thanks, Carol. I will keep you in my prayers. It is so difficult at times. I pray for healing, peace and patience.

[[ci...]]

Monolith81, how are yo doing today with the burning sensation? I am 7 weeks from cold turkey ambien and still have intense body burning.

[[bi...]]

Got up to 20 mg of Ambien (down to 13 now)...trying to taper off right now and having WICKED withdrawal symptoms.    The worst of the symptoms is IBS but I'm also struggling with confusion, blurred vision and a racing mind.  My restless leg syndrome has returned and the IBS is hell on my work and travel schedule.  I'm looking for advice on tapering and help on the WD symptoms.  I'm one of you and trying to get better (10 days into the fight).  I found this site googling Ambien withdrawal symptoms.  Lastly I might have been drinking a little too much booze while on the Ambien... :0(...  I haven't had a drink in 10 days and I think this has exacerbated my withdrawals. 

 

The reason I started the taper was the panic attacks.  I hit a wall and my body went into total panic mode which has never happened before.  I've never come close to having a panic attack and the symptoms were unreal.  It started off with shortness of breath and over the course of two weeks grew into a full blown panic attack that crippled me Thursday before Memorial Day.  I thought I was having a heart attack, I had no idea what was going on other than I thought I was going to die.  At that point I knew I had to get off the medicine, the panic attacks were happening early in the afternoon when the initial DAILY WD symptoms kicked in (daily being the daily WD from Ambien which everyone suffers).  That's the kicker...there are daily (from too much consumption) withdrawals and then TAPERING withdrawals which are intended to help fix the DAILY'S.  I'm suffering through BOTH!  My daily (9am-2pm) symptoms (panic, anxiety, depression) have subsided somewhat because I've cut out all alcohol and dropped my ambien to 13 mg's but the TAPERING symptoms have been awful.  IBS, confusion, blurred vision, memory loss, ringing in my ears, racing mind and restless leg syndrome.  This BLOWS!  The IBS actually started at the same time as the panic attacks.  I assume they're related but I haven't been able to get a handle on the IBS like I did the panic attacks.  While I'll occasionally have a panic attack in the morning, I have IBS almost daily.  Bloating, diarrhea, stomach pains, cramps, etc...

 

I'm a chronic bad sleeper and have decided I'll live with bad sleep; it's better than this hell.  My issue is going down to sleep...once I'm down (which can take hours) I sleep pretty well.  Ambien was a god send at first but it was very addictive and I have a history with addiction.  The Ambien was prescribed to help me sleep as I came off of Hydrocodone and Methadone.

 

I'm ready to be PILL FREE.  The hell with this...

[[Ca...]]

Bigtex

 

You found the right place now BB.  If you take a look at my signature below you will see that I went through what you have just begun.

Everything that  you are going through I had. It has been a long hard recovery back. 

If I could do it over I would try to get on a small amount of Valium and taper off of it.  It is a long act anxiolitic instead of the short acting.  As you have already experienced the interior withdrawals are horrific. I am here to support you and so are many others.

I became so Ill that I was non functional.

Truly non functional. The list of symptoms included ibs. I could not eat and lost 30 lbs. The diarhea was horrific.

I could only sleep for a few minutes and my body would Jerk me awake.

I don't feel up to listing everything right now but just  so you know, what you are experiencing is all withdrawal.  It sucks. The choice of staying on the stuff is not an option because it turned on you and continuing doesn't even help.  Been there and tried it.

Hopefully a cross over or plain old substitution to Valium can be done.

I am here for you

Carol

 

[[bi...]]

Thanks Carol...please tell me your IBS eventually went away as you felt better.

 

Yes...my body has turned on me and now I have to pay the price.  I've been exhausted all day even though I slept 6 hours last night.

[[Ca...]]

Bigrex

Most of my ibs problems were before I got off of it.  Once off it slowly improved.  I can't remember exactly but I think that I started to be able to eat small amounts of food after a few weeks. It took about 6 months to be able to eat normally with no problems. I still  get a burning feeling when I am stressed.

It has taken me at least 2 years to get 6 hours of sleep. Good that you got it.

This whole thing really sucks.

Carol

[[Wo...]]

Hey bigtex,

 

I drank everyday while I was on zopiclone (very similar to Ambien) for 8 months. I have no doubt that the combination made things much worse.

 

I too suffer from IBS but I have actually had it most of my life so I can't blame the z-drug on this.

[[...]]

I've been on Ambien for about 4 yrs. would like advise on getting off, tapering schedules, etc. What can I expect? I don't think I can deal with 1-2 hrs sleep like I've read.

[[Wo...]]

I've been on Ambien for about 4 yrs. would like advise on getting off, tapering schedules, etc. What can I expect? I don't think I can deal with 1-2 hrs sleep like I've read.

 

Hi Jwl,

 

I was only on z-drugs for 8 months. I was able to effectively taper over the course of 1 month. For you it might be longer given your longer use. I was actually one of the lucky ones as I had about 7 months of really good sleep once I started my taper. I don't really know why I started sleeping well. Sadly, I'm going through a rough patch now but I take solace in knowing that I am capable of sleeping well.

 

Keep us posted on your progress.

[[8d...]]

Thought I would get in on this.

 

I started using Zopiclone in January. Stayed on it for 4 months. I started at 2.5mg, and then gradually ended up at 7.5mg. As it stopped working, I would sometimes double up with 1mg Lorazepam or 0.5mg Clonazepam.

 

At the end of April I was so desperate to quit. I hated living like this. I was either anxious about not knowing how to get off, or I genuinely had tolerance WD. Either way, I woke up every morning in fear. Crying. Depressed. I constantly obsessed about ending my life.

 

I quit CT on May 4, and one May 5 my pdoc put me on Seroquel. I got some sleep, but not great. After a couple of weeks, I started to get intense burning in my body at night. Then I would wake up in a pool of sweat.

 

That stopped after a couple of weeks. Then I had about 3 weeks of significantly lowered anxiety. The sleep got a bit better and I tapered from 50mg to 30mg. Then I tried to go to 25mg, and the anxiety hit again. That was about a week ago. I went back up to 37.50, and now I'm down to 35. Going to try getting to 32.50 again this week.

 

I've tried missing nights of taking the meds, and I don't sleep even for a minute. I worry that e even if I taper the Seroquel more, when it's time to get off, I won't be able to sleep.

 

These drugs are shit!

[[Ca...]]

8damien8

 

Right now Pinkee is going through a seroquil taper.

She has been through quite a bit.  I thought that maybe I could direct you to her.  She is having a hard time with it.

Wish you well

Carol

[[ci...]]

Does anyone know if recovery from z-drugs is the same time period as benzos? Some say it can last longer?  I see little research regarding ambien (z-drug) WDs. Most of the research references insomnia as the major WD sxs............if they only knew. Neuropathic pain, muscle twitches/pain, tinntitus, anxiety, panic..........and the lists goes on.

 

 

[[Wo...]]

Does anyone know if recovery from z-drugs is the same time period as benzos? Some say it can last longer?  I see little research regarding ambien (z-drug) WDs. Most of the research references insomnia as the major WD sxs............if they only knew. Neuropathic pain, muscle twitches/pain, tinntitus, anxiety, panic..........and the lists goes on.

 

I suspect that z-drugs are similar to short acting benzos like xanax.

[[Ca...]]

I am 2 years 9 months off.  Doing good in some areas but still not healed. My experience is that they are similar time frame as benzos.

There are so many other variables within each person's experience.

I sure went through hell.

Carol

[[Wo...]]

I am a year off Ambien, no problems to speak of.