What's up with the Remeron craze ?

[[...]]

Staffy, who says I am making generalisations ? If any generalisations have been made on this forum regarding Remeron, it's that it's a completely safe drug with virtually no side effects or withdrawals. 9 out of 10 times that's what I read, and I was worried that people here will believe that to be the absolute truth, only to become dissappointed later once they try this med or want to come off it and find themselves in a predicament.

 

I keep wondering why two other benzo support side explicitely warn against Remeron, calling it one of the worst AD to withdraw from. I wish I could find the links to those sites again so I could post them here. I'm sure others have read the same thing and they will support me when I say I'm not making this up.

 

My only intention with this tread was to focus on the downside of Remeron for once, which I'm perfectly allowed to do. I honestly don't see who I have attacked or what you mean by 'attack'. It's YOU who felt personally spoken to for no reason and then started attacking ME, saying that I was telling nonsense about Remeron and that I didn't have anything to back up my statements. I'm sorry to inform you that science is too on my side here. The receptor binding profile of Remeron is discussed in numerous online sources, and I'm pretty sure every single one of those sources will tell you Remeron targets more receptors than most other drugs, making it not a good choice, in my opinion, for someone whose CNS has already been sensitized enough by other medicines.

 

Regarding Remmie, a few days ago I replied to one of her threads on the insomnia board and told her it's up to her if she wants to take Remeron or not, but that it doesn't work for everyone including myself, and that she has other options that don't involve meds. I don't see what's wrong with saying that.

 

I am not - to use your words - 'attacking' - antipsychotics here because this thread is about Remeron, and antipsychotics don't get nearly as much praise on this site as Remeron does, so there's no real need to start a discussion about the negative side of antipsychotics. But if someone asks me about my experiences with antipsychotics I will tell you what I think of them, and in my book they are poison, just like Remeron is poison to me. Remeron might be the better of the two compared to antipsychotics, but better or not, poison is poison.

[[...]]

My previous post was also addressed to Builder. I mixed his posts up with Staffy's somehow. Anyway, both of them seem to have the same issues with me.

[[ja...]]

It's arguments and fights that put threads to an end. This has been my experience a few time on BB. This is sad because nothing positive comes out of it.

 

 

[[...]]

Here's a quote from one of the websites I mentioned (http://www.bcnc.org.uk/drugs.html):

 

Antidepressants

 

This class of medication is sometimes prescribed in recovery. Some people say they obtain benefit from these drugs however most people find that antidepressants don't help benzodiazepine withdrawal and they are left with yet another drug to taper off of. The mode of action of antidepressants is completely different from that of benzodiazepines and thus they are typically ineffective at alleviating benzodiazepine withdrawal effects. Sometimes they can actually worsen depression or anxiety in what is known as a paradoxical adverse effect. A benzodiazepine slow taper and benzodiazepine recovery time is the most effect treatment for alleviating benzodiazepine withdrawal effects.

 

As with almost all psychotropic drugs you can get withdrawal symptoms or what is sometimes called a discontinuation syndrome. Antidepressants should be gradually tapered instead of stopped suddenly to reduce the severity of any withdrawal symptoms. Generally speaking antidepressants usually do not cause as bad withdrawal symptoms as benzodiazepines.

 

From a personal point of view the only antidepressent that I would advise against is Mirtazapine (BRAND NAMES:- Zispin, Remeron, Avanza, Norset, Remergil, Mirtabene). I have noticed many people having horrendous symptoms, which seem to last an extremely long time after discontinuation of this drug. Whether this bad experience is because of people's past experience with benzo's or whether these bad reactions occur with everyone I am not sure as my points of contact have been mainly with people who were either addicted to or had a past history of being addicted to benzodiazepines.

[[pr...]]

aren't anti-depressants just as they state? stimulants? Anti-depressant hymmmmm? don't stimulants rev up the system?

[[...]]

There are so many different antidepressants and they all act on different receptors, so I guess some will be stimulating and others will be more sedating. The interesting thing with Remeron is that its receptor binding profile is so unique and complex that it can have both effects depending on how much you are taking. There appears to be a tendency for Remeron users to feel sedated on lower dosages, and from a certain dosage the stimulating effect wins over the sedative properties, although for some people it's the opposite. It's all described in the literature.

 

I swear that when I took Remeron it had both the stimulating and sedating effect AT THE SAME TIME, which is why I was never asleep and never truly awake, and I felt awful all the time.

[[Di...]]

Phew - all I can say is that I'm glad I've never taking Remeron, nor do I know anything about it. Therefore, I can't express an opinion or be accused of attacking anyone.

 

We are all perfectly entitled to express our opinions about things, but I don't think it's very helpful to take anyone's opinion personally, or to react angrily. That's the quickest way to get an informative thread closed down.

 

The only issue I have with this subject is that I wonder about the wisdom of substituting dependency on one drug for dependency on another. That's why I've been very thankful that I have found that magnesium has been very helpful for my sleep issues. However, I understand that not everyone is as lucky at that, and they need to find something to help them sleep.

 

I know what chronic insomnia is like, and I'm very grateful that it's not one of my problems at the moment. I feel great sympathy for anyone suffering from it.

[[pr...]]

i had the same exact experience on the remeron. it made so sedated but i was truly asleep. or deep asleep.

at first it did give me some crazy dreams thought--some were very lucid a quite awesome. i actually wanted to stay on it for that reason only. but thought that would be a good reason and may as well eat some peyote because that's what it was like.

i too understand the fear of transferring addictions one for another and fear i may be doing that with aspirin wight now.

it's taking away horrible headaches and also helping me sleep--i never knew it that kind of affect when i was on the benzo's but it's pretty strong relaxant for me. i am surprised--so i am kinda watching how much i take as i don't want to over due it.

[[ma...]]

There are so many different antidepressants and they all act on different receptors, so I guess some will be stimulating and others will be more sedating. The interesting thing with Remeron is that its receptor binding profile is so unique and complex that it can have both effects depending on how much you are taking. There appears to be a tendency for Remeron users to feel sedated on lower dosages, and from a certain dosage the stimulating effect wins over the sedative properties, although for some people it's the opposite. It's all described in the literature.

 

I swear that when I took Remeron it had both the stimulating and sedating effect AT THE SAME TIME, which is why I was never asleep and never truly awake, and I felt awful all the time.

 

Hi LC

 

If you have any evidence to back these claims, i am sure some of our members would like to see it

 

Magrita

[[...]]

I give up. Why won't all those people who doubt my statements go and read about Remeron themselves ? I haven't found any source yet that doesn't confirm that mirtazapine works as a sedative in lower dosages and as a stimulant in higher dosages. It's all over the antidepressant forums as well.

[[Wi...]]

I would like to start a thread regarding Remeron and they way it is often recommended here as a completely safe and reliable sleep aid during benzo withdrawal. How often have I read "take Remeron and you WILL sleep" ? And that "it has practically no side-effects or withdrawals" ? Hundreds of times. And that information is incorrect and misleading, as everyone responds differently to drugs, and each and every psychotropic drug comes with its own set of side-effects and withdrawal symptoms.

 

I took Remeron in all kinds of dosages and it did NOT put me to sleep. It did give me all kinds of side effects and it was a pain to get off of. I'm sure I'm not the only one who got into trouble with this particular med.

 

Please be careful with Remeron or other so-called "safe" sleep aids during benzo withdrawal. Why replace one psychotropic med with another one that sets you up for even more nasty symptoms and a lenghty withdrawal ? Surely this can't be the purpose of this forum.

 

I get that Remeron didn't work for you and in fact you feel it was detrimental to you.  You are not alone in this.  What I don't understand is why so much anger at this site for promoting it's use, which this site certainly doesn't.  And at the people who have found it beneficial.  Whether someone chooses to take adjunct drugs is entirely their choice, whether you agree with it or not.  Stating your opinion "Why replace one psychotropic med with another one that sets you up for even more nasty symptoms and a lenghty withdrawal ? Surely this can't be the purpose of this forum" after having also found the need to try that very thing, which ultimately did not work for you, is an unfair judgement on your part.  You are free to express yourself as you so choose. However, if you experience a backlash as a result, that is simply a consequense of the choice you made.

 

You are in fact correct, Remeron does have a paradoxical effect for many, based on dosage.  I wasn't aware that one could feel both a stimulating effect as well as a sedative effect at the same time, but I suppose anything is possible.  What I do know, in support of your argument about it's paradoxical effects is as follows:

 

Remeron (Mirtazepine) can cause less drowsiness at higher doses, but it could still cause some drowsiness. Everyone is affected differently. The reason for that seemingly paradoxical effect, of less drowsiness, as you increase the dose, is that Remeron affects different pathways in the brain.

 

One pathway ( blocking histamine receptors- like antihistamines do) causes drowsiness, and you only need a small amount of the drug to do this, and it reaches a point where more doesn't increase this effect (because the histamine receptors are already all completed blocked).

 

A second pathway is to increase the amount of brain chemicals- serotonin and noradrenaline (Norepinephrine) (by blocking the receptor that normally slows down their production). Having more of these chemicals in the brain, is what helps to reduce anxiety. They also help reduce depression and increase alertness. This pathway needs more of the drug to be affected significantly.

 

So as the dose of the drug increases, the effects of second pathway (increased alertness) starts to override the effects of the first pathway (drowsiness). Hence it makes you less tired, as the dose is increased.

 

So while I agree with your premise about the drug, I don't see that as a positive or negative and again, I'm not clear on the source of your anger. 

 

WWWI

[[Ho...]]

Great points, WWWI. I look forward to reading the replies to your questions. I often think, when members take such an intense view of something, that there is often a component of fear driving it. I might be wrong in this case, which is why I look forward to reading any comments regarding your very reasonable post/question.

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I am not angry. I just don't understand that whenever I state something negative about Remeron I get all kinds of replies that I have nothing to back up my statements and that I'm making things up. Obviously that is not the case.

 

It is not BenzoBuddies that is promoting the use of Remeron, but some people here are giving this med more credit than it deserves. My posts are not at all driven by anger, nor did I attack anyone. Just look at how Staffy came in and how much anger she brought into this because she felt personally spoken to, which was never my intention. I don't know Staffy, nor did I know she was taking Remeron, so how on earth could I have been attacking her ?

 

Also, I never took Remeron to deal with benzo withdrawals or to replace it. I was put on Remeron by several doctors and psychiatrists while I was still on the benzos because they thought my insomnia was a symptom of depression, which it was not. I didn't know about benzo dependence, tolerance and withdrawal at the time, and all my doctors ignored the problem. I would never have touched the Remeron if I knew I was ill from the benzos. So taking the Remeron was not a deliberate choice of mine to replace my benzos with another drug.

 

As for being driven by fear, I admit I have fears. I am afraid I will never get back to sleeping normally again, and that I will never recover from this. I have been medication-free for 17 months now and my sleep is still poor at best. Many nights my sleep is non existant. But one thing I know for sure: the more drugs you take, the worse your problem gets, and the more difficult it becomes to undo the damage. Every new pill that I took made my insomnia worse. And that is why I feel it is my duty to discourage others to switch from a benzo to another drug without at least considering the consequences. If you read on the insomnia board, you will have to agree that Remeron is far too often presented as a definite cure for insomnia. It does not deserve this honour.

[[Ho...]]

But one thing I know for sure: the more drugs you take, the worse your problem gets, and the more difficult it becomes to undo the damage.

 

I think part of the problem might be statements like the one above. This is a rather sweeping statement. I think if you were to instead, relay your personal experiences rather than draw conclusions like the above, it might make this discussion more easily understood.

 

I'm sorry for the problems you've had. I know how debilitating insomnia can be...and I understand that you've had bad experiences with one drug. However, that doesn't mean that everyone will. If you could keep your comments more about your experience and make it clear these are your opinions and not fact, all of this might be more understood by those who are posting and reading this thread.

[[bu...]]

But one thing I know for sure: the more drugs you take, the worse your problem gets, and the more difficult it becomes to undo the damage.

 

I think part of the problem might be statements like the one above. This is a rather sweeping statement. I think if you were to instead, relay your personal experiences rather than draw conclusions like the above, it might make this discussion more easily understood.

 

I'm sorry for the problems you've had. I know how debilitating insomnia can be...and I understand that you've had bad experiences with one drug. However, that doesn't mean that everyone will. If you could keep your comments more about your experience and make it clear these are your opinions and not fact, all of this might be more understood by those who are posting and reading this thread.

 

Excellent post, Hope!

[[Wi...]]

But one thing I know for sure: the more drugs you take, the worse your problem gets, and the more difficult it becomes to undo the damage.

 

I think part of the problem might be statements like the one above. This is a rather sweeping statement. I think if you were to instead, relay your personal experiences rather than draw conclusions like the above, it might make this discussion more easily understood.

 

I'm sorry for the problems you've had. I know how debilitating insomnia can be...and I understand that you've had bad experiences with one drug. However, that doesn't mean that everyone will. If you could keep your comments more about your experience and make it clear these are your opinions and not fact, all of this might be more understood by those who are posting and reading this thread.

 

Excellent post, Hope!

 

I agree!

[[Ho...]]

But one thing I know for sure: the more drugs you take, the worse your problem gets, and the more difficult it becomes to undo the damage.

 

I think part of the problem might be statements like the one above. This is a rather sweeping statement. I think if you were to instead, relay your personal experiences rather than draw conclusions like the above, it might make this discussion more easily understood.

 

I'm sorry for the problems you've had. I know how debilitating insomnia can be...and I understand that you've had bad experiences with one drug. However, that doesn't mean that everyone will. If you could keep your comments more about your experience and make it clear these are your opinions and not fact, all of this might be more understood by those who are posting and reading this thread.

 

Excellent post, Hope!

 

I agree!

 

Thank you builder and WWWI. 

 

[[ja...]]

LC,

 

 

You are probably right that remeron is poison like all other AD's and Benzos. The fact of the matter is that I have been on 15mg's of remeron for one year (same time tapering K) and I have dropped from 4.5 mg's of K down to 2.3125mg's all along I have been getting anywhere from 6-7 hours of sleep every night. At this moment I feel like crapp, anxious, loss of sleep, heart palpitations, shaky etc. Quite honestly I dont need this at this moment and should be concentrating on continuing my K taper. For this reason I have decided not to play hero and re-instate back to 15mg's of remeron.Hopefully I can stabilze in a few days and return to my objective of K taper. As for remeron taper, I will cross that bridge when I get to it.

[[Ho...]]

LC,

 

 

You are probably right that remeron is poison like all other AD's and Benzos. The fact of the matter is that I have been on 15mg's of remeron for one year (same time tapering K) and I have dropped from 4.5 mg's of K down to 2.3125mg's all along I have been getting anywhere from 6-7 hours of sleep every night. At this moment I feel like crapp, anxious, loss of sleep, heart palpitations, shaky etc. Quite honestly I dont need this at this moment and should be concentrating on continuing my K taper. For this reason I have decided not to play hero and re-instate back to 15mg's of remeron.Hopefully I can stabilze in a few days and return to my objective of K taper. As for remeron taper, I will cross that bridge when I get to it.

 

I'm sorry your taper is so difficult for you. I hope these symptoms get better for you soon. I've had all those symptoms at one time and I know how unnerving all of this can be.

 

I would like to point out; as I mentioned to LC, I think sweeping, generalized statements like this aren't necessarily helpful. I would also caution from using the word "poison". As you know this forum is not an anti-benzo/medication site and I don't want it to be perceived as such. Also, new members reading such labels could become needlessly alarmed.

[[ja...]]

GOT IT

[[...]]

Funny thing, I was thinking the exact same thing about sweeping statements and generalisations when I decided to start this thread, only those sweeping statements and generalisations were about Remeron's alleged superpowers and universal effectiveness, as some want to attribute to this med. My thread was merely a reaction to earlier generalisations from other members. I thought this was clear from my original post.

 

I also assumed that adding more and more drugs during benzo withdrawal almost universally compounds the problem, and it never crossed my mind that people on this forum would have a problem with reading such a statement. I can see how some of us are helped with certain additional medication or supplements, but I'm almost certain they are in a minority.

 

Now I'm asked to talk about personal experiences with Remeron, but once I mention the word Remeron in a any negative way, everyone wants to hear facts and scientific data to back up my case. Which have been provided, and still I am misunderstood.

 

I also want to make clear that Remeron is not the only med I had a bad reaction to. I reacted badly to all medications, and to me they are in fact poisonous. You can't expect someone to avoid the word 'poison' when these pills have ruined your entire life.

 

I'm sorry if some of you feel attacked or read things in my posts that were never intended.

[[...]]

I have read my original post over and over again and I can't find anything wrong with it. It is exactly what I explained that it is: a reaction to other threads and posts on this forum where the effectiveness of Remeron for sleep during benzo withdrawal is almost guaranteed, and so is the absence of side-effects and withdrawal symptoms. I wrote that it is wrong to make such statements because there are no guarantees, with any drug. And now I'm being told it is wrong to make generalisations and sweeping statements ? Go figure.

 

There is nothing even remotely similar to an 'attack' in that first post, nor in any other post of mine, nor did I say that you should not take Remeron or you will die. In my first post, I briefly mention my personal experiences with this medication, which happened to be very bad. And I end with: "Please be careful with Remeron during benzo withdrawal", as you are switching to another med that is almost certainly creating some sort of physical dependency and subsequent withdrawals, even if it DOES work for you, which it might not. I honestly don't see how a sentence like "please be careful" could be offensive to anyone.

 

If this thread got out of hand and turned into some kind of war between Remeron lovers and haters, that is not my fault, and I'm not going to take the blame for any of it.

[[pr...]]

 

i have to say when this post was started i was kinda glad as i didn't have enough nerve to start my own experience about the last time i took the remeron and how it made me feel. i have to say one thing... that i had never heard about remeron before i got to this forum and i have to say that it as due to everyone talking about this medication in particular that prompted me to try it. i had mixed feelings about whether or not to stay on it because i desperately needed sleep and weight and that was the two things i had heard this medication did.

but i did stop it because i had thought (and only for myself) that i could possibly interfere with the benzo healing if i added another med during this process. and also that it did make me feel too brain dead. but that's just my brain and what i am going through--and i don't expect anyone to even read this. i don't know how nor wish to be controversial. not clever enough

 

i can also understand the people who are on this medication and are having good results with it would feel a little "hey don't knock the med i am on". and feel sore about it-- i would feel that way too. i have also re-read this entire thread and i don't see where anyone is attacking anyone. i just see some people sore at the fact that some i guess generalizations are said.

 

but again, i have to say i would not have known about remeron if it wasn't for being on here and i am not in any way putting that down as i am so grateful to this forum and everyone it.  it's really up to the individual of what they need to do with their own healing and recovering. i did go to a few other "remeron forums" when i first started the remeron and i saw a lot of different views on there. just saying, and totally not getting involved with anything else

[[...]]

Thanks, prettydaisys. You know, the same discussion could be had about benzos themselves, as there are many people who feel perfectly fine on these pills and claim to have no side-effects or withdrawals. For them, this whole forum will seem utterly inappropriate and useless, and they will feel the same about not knocking on the meds they are on, as you put it so well. But that's just the thing: we are all here because we were affected badly by at least one class of psychoactive drugs and we want to get off and get our health back. That's why I don't understand why some people here get so sensitive when I start a discussion about the downside of another class of drugs which can lead to similar problems with dependency and withdrawals as the benzos have put us up with. Especially since the Remeron defenders - for lack of a better word - are equally stepping on other people's toes by ignoring the fact that these pills have proven to be so detrimental to others. This is not a forum in which we are trying to find the right drug for us, or at least I don't think that is the intention for coming here, unless I missed something. I realise that's not the same thing as saying nobody should ever take pills again, but telling people they can just take some Remeron and their insomnia will be over and done with by all odds, that is going a bit too far in the other direction if you ask me, and I refuse to go along with that.

[Guest [St...]]

Thanks, prettydaisys. You know, the same discussion could be had about benzos themselves, as there are many people who feel perfectly fine on these pills and claim to have no side-effects or withdrawals. For them, this whole forum will seem utterly inappropriate and useless, and they will feel the same about not knocking on the meds they are on, as you put it so well. But that's just the thing: we are all here because we were affected badly by at least one class of psychoactive drugs and we want to get off and get our health back. That's why I don't understand why some people here get so sensitive when I start a discussion about the downside of another class of drugs which can lead to similar problems with dependency and withdrawals as the benzos have put us up with. Especially since the Remeron defenders - for lack of a better word - are equally stepping on other people's toes by ignoring the fact that these pills have proven to be so detrimental to others. This is not a forum in which we are trying to find the right drug for us, or at least I don't think that is the intention for coming here, unless I missed something. I realise that's not the same thing as saying nobody should ever take pills again, but telling people they can just take some Remeron and their insomnia will be over and done with by all odds, that is going a bit too far in the other direction if you ask me, and I refuse to go along with that.

 

LC,

 

but telling people they can just take some Remeron and their insomnia will be over and done with by all odds, that is going a bit too far in the other direction if you ask me, and I refuse to go along with that.

 

I don't think I've ever seen or heard of anyone (myself included) giving advice such as that.  First off it would be considered 'Perscriptive' and inappropriate by the moderators. 

 

This is why people are getting 'defensive', we do not tell other members that taking Remeron will be a panacea, but for those of us that have had success we simply relay our experiences, that is not against any forum rule and is in fact the very reason the forum exists, for an exchange of information and individual experiences.

 

Why can you not let go of this issue?

 

Staffy.