Please clarify "Kindling"

[[sa...]]

I am a little confused on the whole kindling term. I have read that it only has to do with epilepsy and I have read that it could mean worse or longer healing for someone who has withdrew a few times. This is my 3rd c/t. I took it off and on for a year, then off for a year and a half, took it off and on for 2 weeks, then off for 6 months, then off and of for about 6 weeks. The only reason I reinstated the two times was for the awful belly pain that kept coming back. Now, it is so much worse then what I took it for. Does this mean I could suffer longer and more intense symptoms. I know the first time I withdrew, I felt a little better by month 4, but definitely better by month 6, but it took a whole year to feel almost like myself, but I don't think I ever totally healed. Of course, the first time I withdrew, I was not sure it was withdraws, all the docs told me it wasn't, now I know for sure it was. Please tell me what your thoughts are!!

[[...]]

  I dont know much about Kindling but i tried to look it up and this is what i got  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindling_(sedative-hypnotic_withdrawal)  sounds like it can be worse 2nd and 3rd time around i think i have read stories on here of repeat users maybe they can help better with this question, dont know if i read it would take longer, i sure hope not..

  Feel better soon xx Moe

[[...]]

Well that link didnt work, i will try to figure it out with my banzo brain... sorry

[[...]]

Kindling due to substance withdrawal, refers to the neurological condition which results from repeated withdrawal episodes from sedative-hypnotic drugs such as alcohol or benzodiazepines. Each withdrawal leads to more severe withdrawal symptoms than the first withdrawal syndrome. Individuals who have had more withdrawal episodes are at an increased risk of very severe withdrawal symptoms, up to and including seizures. Withdrawal from GABAergic acting sedative-hypnotic drugs causes acute GABA-under-activity as well as glutamate over-activity which can lead to sensitization and hyper-excitability of the central nervous system, excito-neurotoxicity and increasingly profound neuroadaptions.

[[sa...]]

I had more symptoms than the first time, now I only have the belly pain again. Do you think that means it means it will last longer?

[[...]]

  Well i wouldnt say that you will have a longer withdrawal, as it says your chances increase you will have an increased RISK of worse withdrawal, it never really say anything about longer, in my opinion nothing is predictable in benzo withdrawal, it is really a waiting game so hopefully you will recover soon... Moe

 

 

 

[[sa...]]

Thanks Moe,

I know I am really getting psycho about this. I can't stand it anymore. I just can't believe I let it happen again. I have been in pain all year and there is nothing I can do about it but give it time. I know I just realized I wasn't healed from the c/t in August when I did the intense exercise in Dec which triggered the belly pain then after being in pain for 2 months I reinstated in Feb. I wish I could remember, but at first I thought I took it Jan and Feb but I think I only took it a couple weeks in Feb then a couple half pills in march and april, then quit, so i probably really screwed up my system after that. I have been in serious pain since. Just like everyone else, I am just trying to gage my timeframe. I know the first time I c/t in '10 i was feeling a little better by 4 months and it will be 4 months in one week and still no relief.

[[al...]]

im sure that i had kindlnig...small seizures who lasted a day or so in the beginning...after some of this attacks it suddenly got MUCH wors...by the time i figure it all out the symptoms lastet for a year..and still lasting

[[pa...]]

This is a very interesting thread because I'm wondering if I my w/d this 2nd time was triggered by the kindling effect. I had been benzo free for about 7 mths when I had had a really bad day, and I let a friend give me a Xanax. A week or so later he gave me a couple more, and I drank one beer with him after I took one. I took the second one the next morning. I started having bad headaches between that 1st dose and 3rd dose, but didn't see a connection. Then my husband had to go the ER with an awful headache. He was prescribed Fioricet, which contains a barbiturate. I researched it and learned it wasn't a benzo but was used to treat anxiety and insomnia. Since it wasn't a benzo I asked my husband if I could have a dose for my own headache...I know, really bad idea. About a week later, I had a pounding headache, was edgy, and was sweating one minute, chilled the next. I can't believe I still didn't connect the dots, but I didn't. I went to the ER, got prescribed Fioricet, and took my last dose about a week ago. The sxs I have this time are pretty much exactly like the 1st time. They crept up on me little by little until I went into hardcore sxs about 2 days ago. Anyone have any experience or knowledge of other meds besides benzos restarting w/d sxs? I have tried googling the topic to get information, but it's been slim pickings  . 

Paisley~

[[De...]]

I went through horrible withdrawals from Inderal, which was prescribed to help me get through Xanax withdrawal.  It followed a more "normal" withdrawal pattern where it got worse and worse to start, plateaued and then started getting better.  From what I understand, people can go through withdrawal from any drug, which makes sense, since they alter the body's chemistry.  I have a friend who went through withdrawal from an inhaler.

 

Thank you for this original post - I was not aware of kindling as a phenomenon.  I was on Dalmane a couple years ago, which has a similar half-life to Valium, and quit cold turkey with no withdrawal symptoms.  Based on this, I thought once I made the switch to Valium I could follow a rather quick withdrawal schedule.  Now I'm not going to take any chances.  I'll go as slow as I need to to avoid any further withdrawal symptoms.

 

 

[[Ch...]]

It does seem like kindling is a factor for a lot of us.  Many of us inadvertently went off benzos in the past without knowing about tapering. Withdrawal doesn't usually seem to hit as hard the first time as consecutive times.  Even though it's a disturbing phenomenon, it's one to be aware of and educated about.  As Moe said, nothing much in withdrawal is predictable.

 

It is what it is...in my opinion we have little choice but to accept it for what it is and move forward the best we can.  Fighting it and/or worrying about how long it will last is probably counterproductive.

 

Best to you... someday this will be behind us.  Each day is a step closer.

 

Challis 

[[sa...]]

How can you not focus on the duration when you are in pain every single day and there is nothing out there that takes it away. NOTHING! When all you have to cling to is comparing your experiences with others, it is really hard to be productive and not worry. I can't seem to find anyone who has had the belly pain. It took me a year to feel better after the first time. I just realized that I was not recovered when the belly pain came back and it was still all a part of withdraw a year and a half later. It has been 4 months today and it doesn't look like it is getting better any time soon. i am going on vacation next weekend and it is the only time I am not looking forward to it.

[[pr...]]

do you thinking a kindling could happen after 7 years of being off benzo's?

i am a definite 'kindler' now.

[[gi...]]

Even if you are kindled you will still get well.  It might be a bit rougher the second or third time around though and you may or may not be protracted.  Kindling was very real in my case but healing is still happening.  The DP, DR is gone, the agoraphobia etc.  Just went out the other night with some friends and was able to socialize and feel like a normal human being again.  Even had 2 margarita's !  Just stay focussed and let time do it's work.  Kindled or not, you will be ok.

Ginia

[[va...]]

Back in the old days when i first started Xanax and didnt know crap about tapering or even that i was suppose to keep a stable dose what i use to do was "kindle" which is start out with .5 at 8PM, pop in another milligram by midnight, then another couple of pills at 2am to knock myself out. Now i didnt do this every night, only whenever i couldnt sleep. Other days i would start out the morning taking a pill, then pop a few more by noon, then heck take another 2MG by 8pm.

 

Basically id go anywhere from .5 to 4MG in a 24hr period. No rhyme or reason, just had a theory of screw it, if i ever feel anxious or cant sleep im popping a pill. What started happening is i was giving myself interdose withdrawls with that crazy of a schedule.

 

I think kindling is just that, throwing extra pills on the fire to keep it going with no regard to a schedule, or anything. At least thats what i was told at one point i was doing.

[[gi...]]

From what I understand kindling usually occurs when someone is on a substance and becomes addicted to it then gets off the substance for some time and then reinstates that any further attempts to get off the substance can be sometimes more difficult.  This was indeed true in my case and in many others that I have spoken to.  I am not sure if it is the case with sparadic dosing though.  Either way, with positive determination regardless of how difficult it may be it is still possible to recover and be well again.  I am living proof.

[[pr...]]

i'm glad you are living proof.

i am worried.

i am at 127 days today and i can still hear my brain'sizzling and hissing and does feel like it's kindling.

i just got off a cold turkey/detox on 4/26/12

i just started a new topic on the rapid taper/cold turkey called Unbelievable NEW brain symptom.

i can't believe it? and don't understand what is happening to my brain?

 

so even a cold turkey. 'kindler' can heal?

i hope my brain is still doing what it is doing at 1 year but it could very well be the case as it has not stopped in over one hundred days.

pretty

[[gi...]]

Yes, there are quite a few CT kindled people out here too.  Try not to worry too much although I know it is scary if it goes on for a long time with no relief.  Our brains are excellent at repairing themselves . It's not permanent though.  Benzo withdrawl often takes much longer then any of us ever imagined.  Hang in there.  Ginia

[[pr...]]

thank you ginia!

i don't understand why this is taking so long to even change and do something else after all these days?

i don't know if i belong on the forum right now either?

i am in the middle of the worst dp/ dr's ever. with the worst brain injury and gettin' it from all sides of life, home, this forum and basically can't talk without getting in some troubles.

is that a symptom?

i posted the most bizarre brain disturbance i've had the other day on the cold turkey section and received only one reply.

that makes me convinced that my brain injury is only with me and not anyone  else who has also come off of benzo's.

maybe i didn't write it clear enough.

does this forum really help people?

i would like to know? am i the only one?

or is it a hindrance? sorry but i am still in very bad withdrawals or else there is something else wrong that no one can tell me about and i am suffering alone and i don't need to be suffering alone when other's receive help.

i am definitely a 'kindler' so upset about that.

my brain blew out in that detox and i haven't been the same since. i will be seeing a benzo wise doctor soon hopefully and i am going to ask about reinstating. this is too much for me to take 24/7.

it shouldn't be this way.

and i worked so hard these last 100 days too.

[[gi...]]

Prettydaisy's,

It would not really be all that wise to reinstate for you right now.  You have some time under your belt and believe it or not you are making progress.  I understand how awful this is and others are suffering in many of the same ways too.  DP and DR were one of my absolute worst symptoms for a very long time.  While in the midst of it it is difficult to see that you are making any progress whatsoever but you are.  Every day off is one day closer to healing.  Try to stay focussed on one day at a time and stay away from negative posts if at all possible.  It will get better for you but unfortunately for many time is the only real factor in healing.  Your not alone and if others did not respond to your post it could be that they could not identify with your symptoms .  It does not mean that you are brain damaged or permanetly damaged.  I have felt like my brain was moving inside of my head many times along with other strange and painful sensations.  They have gone away now thankfully but it was scary at the time .  We all get some really wierd , unique symptoms at times.

Just know that this too shall pass, it's just temporary and you will get well in time.  Hugs to you.  Ginia

[[to...]]

thank you ginia!

i don't understand why this is taking so long to even change and do something else after all these days?

i don't know if i belong on the forum right now either?

i am in the middle of the worst dp/ dr's ever. with the worst brain injury and gettin' it from all sides of life, home, this forum and basically can't talk without getting in some troubles.

is that a symptom?

i posted the most bizarre brain disturbance i've had the other day on the cold turkey section and received only one reply.

that makes me convinced that my brain injury is only with me and not anyone  else who has also come off of benzo's.

maybe i didn't write it clear enough.

does this forum really help people?

i would like to know? am i the only one?

or is it a hindrance? sorry but i am still in very bad withdrawals or else there is something else wrong that no one can tell me about and i am suffering alone and i don't need to be suffering alone when other's receive help.

i am definitely a 'kindler' so upset about that.

my brain blew out in that detox and i haven't been the same since. i will be seeing a benzo wise doctor soon hopefully and i am going to ask about reinstating. this is too much for me to take 24/7.

it shouldn't be this way.

and i worked so hard these last 100 days too.

 

I have never ever seen anyone reinstate anywhere close to 4 months and not regret it. Please ask Metheral about his experience with reinstatement. Reinstating is the absolute worst idea i can imagine. Do you want to be on this board in 2015 still talking about these brain symptoms? Because that is what may happen. Ginia is right. You have had healing even if you don't feel it.

 

Strugglezopam just reported turning a big corner at 3 months. You only have to wait a little bit longer before you show some improvement. This benzo wise doctor may push you to go back on benzos. Hopefully he won't. There may be other meds which he will offer to help take the edge off. I personally believe that antidepressants can help with DP/DR. I suffered intense derealization when slow tapering valium. Everyday was a ride on the Yellow Submarine. It gave me suicidal ideation. When I went in patient and was yanked off the benzos real fast, I only suffered mild DR and no DP. The difference...120mg Cymbalta.

[[Ki...]]

Kindling is no joke and a major reason that I never reinstated despite major, hellish pain after a CT from Klonipin and Xanax.  This process doesn't just affect people coming off benzos, but is also something that happens to people with previous opiate or alcohol addictions ( as noted earlier).

 

The process is simple.  Once you establish a tolerance from daily substance use and go through withdraw from said drug - the next WD be much more painful. 

 

But that's not all.  Your tolerance to the drug is also increased and the timeframe of daily use  necessary to become "re-addicted" (from when you start taking it again) and suffer any WDs is much, much shorter.  So while it may have taken 3 months of daily use of whatever drug you took to even get any withdraw symptoms upon DCing the first time, a few days of use may be enough to inspire tough withdraw symptoms the next time around.  opiate addicts are quite familiar with this process, but lucky for them, even the worse withdraw from an optiate is over within a week (*what anyone coming off benzos wouldn't give for 1 week of symptoms!). 

 

*as a side note, I was CT'd in a high-end rehab ($40K for 30 days) where I met every variety of dope fiend known to man.  Most of the folks doing street drugs were very well-aware of how problematic benzo withdrawl is and stay tend to stay away from daily use.  I had 2 different heroin addicts, and a guy who was hooked on crack, tell me that they are scared of benzos because of the withdraw issues.  It made me think.  if only I was a hard-core drug addict, I would have known better than to take benzos when prescribed to me by my doctor.

 

Anyhoo, the amount of time you've been off a drug doesn't seem to matter much when it comes to kindling.  You could be off for years, and your sensitivity to the substance is quite high.

 

Hope this helps!

[[pr...]]

what do you mean kindling isn't a joking matter?

i;m not sure what is going on with me? i am so insane right now and i can't think at all.

i don't even recall what kindling is right now 'cause i can't think right now at all. i am hallucinating right now from my brain and lack of sleep. i am in fear for my life in the home i am in right now and i don't know what to do?

these people that use to be my family whom i don't recognise at all are totally abusing me, not allowing me to sleep, screaming and yelling. my brother attacked me last night. and i am on the worst acid like trip with all of these w/d's and dp/dr.

i haven't had any sleep or even rest for two full nights and days.

i need to know if there are any authorities i can call right now!

i need to know?

i just picked up the prescription of Ativan that i got from the ER last month when i was 'crying wolf' to reinstate due to family issues. i haven't taken a pill yet, but i don't think i can handle what is going on here another minute.

who can i call about these people who are abusive to me? i am an adult with a brain injury and i can do anything on my own right now and these people are freaking me out.

thanks, pretty

[[mt...]]

Hi Pretty

I am so sorry you are feeling so ill and have no where to feel safe and protected.  I see you are in Ventura CA.  I googled and there is an agency that may be able to help with finding you some housing or support to get you through this rough spot. 

 

http://portal.countyofventura.org/portal/page/portal/VCHSA

 

I see you have dropped an incredible amount of benzos as well as tapering suboxone.  Do you have the help of a Dr or therapist or a friend that might be able to get you in a safer place to complete your taper?  FYI it may be a good idea to hold off on tapering the suboxone until you are somewhat stable from the benzo taper.  I have a friend who is tapering suboxone and from I have read it can be a rough ride at the lower doses. 

 

Try and focus on the fact that you have accomplished a HUGE step in coming so far.  Be proud and Please love yourself!

 

I sure feel for all you are enduring and send you my prayers for some relief!

All my best to you!

Mimi

[[pr...]]

i meant to write that i can't do anything on my own.

 

thanks for sending that link, i am with them right now because i signed up for medical as i am on disability.

god, this life is so great! i can't wait to be here for so long. i don't mean that right now and can't handle what's going on.

i don't know one person i can talk about this. not one!

that's what that piece of crap piece of shit klonopin did to me and my life.

i don't understand how anyone has friends and family on this stuff. i couldn't do relationships any longer. i could do the klonopin and opiates and parents. i've been with my parents trying to taper on and off for ten years.

i don't have one person who i can talk to.

how do i live with that? and then have abuse from the last 3 people i know. the last 3 people i started out with.

it's insane in this house. me and my brother are adults living with both parents because we can't make it on our own

and he took over my room because he allowed himself to get evicted and he is an opiate addict and in denial about it and never wants to give it up. and he has taken over my room and sleeping on my bed with his 3 year old daughter yelling, screaming and threatening me. and was also physical the other night and attacked me.

i seriously can't believe this is my life! i am shocked and i need someone to talk to now. person to person. i need it, and i don't have any idea of who i can call. i've been in the house on the couch trying to withdrawal from benzo's, hallucinating, spinning, vertigo, falling, flying, floating with my brain zapping and squeezing and tightening and radio static and exploding. and they're yelling at me.

NO! i need to call the correct authorities so they have to stop this and treat me like a person with a brain injury.

i don't think the human service agency can help me with this.

and i'm not sure who i can call? and i don't know if all of this is my benzo brain and if i would be handling this differently if i wasn't in withdrawals?

pretty