Suicidal Feelings - Not Handling Taper Well

[[or...]]

I am slowly crashing. Last night my feelings were overwhelming, engulfing me.  This is the first time this has happend in months.  In August of 2007, similar overwhelming feelings led to a suicide attempt, which I survived.  I found myself drifting back to the suicide option again last night, just to stop that emotional 'fire' in my brain.

 

I am feeling myself going back to that spot of total emotional overwhelm again, and quickly.  This is scary for me.  This emotional overwhelm began happening within the last two nights, both of which were taper drops from 68 ml (.34 mg Klono) to 67 ml (.335 mg).  I do not feel safe dropping down to 66 ml tonight.

 

Currently I am feeling raw, senses overwhelmed, shakey but not suicidial.  The intense feelings seem to occurr at night, 5-6 hours before my next dose (I tend to dose right before bedtime).

 

Not sure what to do.  Ashton manual says never to backtrack on your dosage reduction, but my brain seems to not be able to keep up with the current taper schedule, which I thought was plenty gradual enough (10% every two weeks).  Can't understand my volatile reaction.

 

And, do I take additional Klono during the day to stabilize for a day or two, then back to the liquid titration?  I am frustrated because I do not know the rules or how to stabilize.  I seemed ok on 69 ml (at this dosage for 5 days) problems started at 68 ml and below. 

 

Please help me.  I will have access to this site for another 20 minutes, then I will attempt to find a friend with internet access within the next 5 - 8 hours so I can access this site again and see what everyone has to say.

[[Th...]]

Hi Orange8,

 

As stated before, please hold your taper for a few days to see if things level out. Just want to make sure that you are crushing your pill (.50mg right??) really well and mixing your solution really well before extracting the amount for the day. It may take several days to stabilize again, but you will. What you are experiencing are w/d symptoms, try not to fear it. I know easier said than done. Just try to hang in there.

 

 

T2

[[Be...]]

 

I am feeling myself going back to that spot of total emotional overwhelm again, and quickly.  This is scary for me.  This emotional overwhelm began happening within the last two nights, both of which were taper drops from 68 ml (.34 mg Klono) to 67 ml (.335 mg).  I do not feel safe dropping down to 66 ml tonight.

 

Currently I am feeling raw, senses overwhelmed, shakey but not suicidial.  The intense feelings seem to occurr at night, 5-6 hours before my next dose (I tend to dose right before bedtime).

.........

And, do I take additional Klono during the day to stabilize for a day or two, then back to the liquid titration?  I am frustrated because I do not know the rules or how to stabilize.  I seemed ok on 69 ml (at this dosage for 5 days) problems started at 68 ml and below. 

 

....

 

orange8 

 

I remember being so scared when thoughts of suicide returned.    I had already decided intellectually never to act on those thoughts but it's very disturbing nonetheless. 

 

I have stopped trying to figure out why we react as we do to benzo withdrawal.  There are probably scientific explanations but they are beyond me.  I'll have to check the Ashton Manual again but I know that people do back their dose up from time to time when they can't handle the symptoms.  It doesn't always help, sad to say, but it really is okay for you to go back to the .69ml and hold that level longer.  Just taking the action of reinstating that tiny dose maybe enough to relieve some of the "I'm trapped in hell" feeling you seem to be having.

 

Hope you find some internet access.  I sometimes have had to use the library's computer when my PC has been out of commission.

 

 

[[Co...]]

Hi Orange,

 

You need to take care of yourself! Talk with your family, friends, or a doctor.

 

Your taper rate is just a best guess. If you are finding the taper rate too tough, simply quit cutting for a while until you feel some improvement. When you feel better, get back to me and I will draw up a new plan for you with a slower taper rate, and it will start from where you left off.

[[an...]]

And, do I take additional Klono during the day to stabilize for a day or two, then back to the liquid titration? 

 

If you are taking it during the day too then you can't just stop that and go back to the taper only at night.  You need to consider that in the tapering plan.  The others here have better ideas on how to incorporate that than I do, but I know you can't just bounce back and forth between tapering and regular doses. 

 

The suicidal thoughts, overwhelming yep - been there - done that, will pass in time.  Even if they return often, you can be stronger than they are.  Talk it out - call a crisis line - do what you need to do to survive than then get stable.  Once you are stable, then you can rethink the whole tapering idea. 

[[sc...]]

Orange.

 

first of all, we are here for you my friend!

 

Ok you do NOT take the additional Klono in order to stabalize.

What you want to do, is take the dose that you took yesterday.

 

So you are at 67ml's right?  STAY THERE for a few days to level out..it may take 2,3,4,5 days or so..it is ok to stay there until you feel better.

You see, if you take more than you are supposed to, that is called spiking you dose, and you do not want to do that.

 

I have held my dose plenty of times and it is ok to do..it's just a matter of not reducing anymore until you feel you are able. This is not a race. The schedule is only a guideline, ok?

 

 

I want to make sure of a few things.

When you crush your pill, you are crushing it to a very very fine powder yes? NO CHUNKS in the powder?

and when you mix it, you are topping of the cylinder with 100ml's of milk right? and then removing 33ml's? to get to 67ml and then drinking the 67ml?  If so, you are doing it correctly.

 

make sure you are mixing the klono and the milk REALLY REALLY REALLY good.

 

I would not attempt this right now, but once you are stable, you can split your dose into smaller doses throughout the day. If you do this I would split it over slowly..meaning dont just halve the 67ml all at one time. do it slowly, and slowly transfer it over into two or 3 smaller doses throughout the day...

 

you do not have to do this. Alot of people do. I personaly do not.

 

I know this is very scary right now Orange. It will pass I promise you. You are not doomed like this for life!

I along with everyone else will be right here with you through this Orange.

 

I think your anxiety is just cranking up right now, mine does it too...in fact that is why I am taking a break from my mod duties for a while..to get myself right..so you see, it happens to us all. but it does not last forever.

 

If you need anything Please PM me and I can give you my email addresss if you would like. I am usually up late at night, incase you cannot get a hold of anyone here.

 

You are going to be ok Orange..You are going to be ok..Start telling yourself that.

You are NOT doing anything wrong...things will get better.

 

I do suggest you hold your dose for a while and lets see if things even out.

 

I am here for you, along with everyone else.

PM me if you would like my email address , I mean that!

 

You are going to be finemy friend,

Scott

[[or...]]

Thank you all for your support and hanging in there with me; I am very shakey today but in not immediate danger.

 

As, I was not able to access the site in time Saturday to receive everyone's input, I kind of 'winged it' on my own, so what I did Saturday noon was take .25mg Klono to stabilize, then went back up to 69 ml nightly (.345 mg) these last two nights to try to stabilize.

 

Still very up and down, as my brain seems to be struggling with getting some chemical stability, and its not happening yet.  Hoping that continuing with the 69 ml nightly will calm things down but who knows?

 

Again, thanks for helping me, I'll keep in touch and provide updates.

[[el...]]

Orange,

 

Thanks for checking in with us. I do believe you will be stabilizing with this, and will feel better. Just give it time, it will come.

Yes, please keep in touch. 

 

[[su...]]

Hi Orange,

 

These feelings will pass. It's such an emotional overload and it can be too much. But your mind/body will work through it. Mine always has, even at the worst of times when I felt overwhelmed like you mentioned.

[[sc...]]

Orange, holding right where you are at for a while should belp things stablize out for you. Just remember you don't want to stay there for TOO long, or long enough for tolerance to set it, but I dont think you will have to worry about that by just holding for a little while, or long enough to get stable. Be creful with the updosing also. While what you took is not going to hurt you, you just dont want to make a habbit of updosing...but once certainly will not hurt your taper.... it only becomes a problem when it turns into doing it several times a week...

 

just becareful and you will be fine

 

You are doing fantastic orange, kepp it up!!!

[[or...]]

Thank you sugarlily and scott33 for the support, this is helpful to me; this brings up two questions for me:

 

1) How long is too long to hold at my current stabilizing dose of 69 ml?  Before I crashed last week I had done 5 nights at 69 ml before going down to 68 ml.  The trouble started as soon as I reduced to 68 ml, so am I supposed to hold for a few weeks at 69 ml?  Tonight will be my 5th night again at 69 ml, and wondering how long to hold this dose before attempting reducing again.  I got really wierd last time when dropped to 68 ml so I really really want to be careful this time around.

 

2) Regarding your comment sugarlily, I would really like some input as to coping mechanisms that would serve as safe, practical and concrete things I can do to take care of myself while I am in that complete emotional overwhelm state.  You had mentioned that you had worked through such extreme states of mind.  How did you do that?  What actions did you take to get through it?  Any techniques that you used?  I am realizing that I don't really have any coping mechanisms for times that I am going through sensory/emotional overwhelm, and that is dangerous for me.  I tend to go the self-destructive route as a coping mechanism, and I would like to change that.....

[[Co...]]

Hi Orange,

 

To reassure you, reducing your dose from 69ml to 68ml will have no effect in of itself. Do not think there is any kind of barrier when you reduce your dose to 68ml. The problems you had before, if they were due to the taper, were the result of an accumulation of cuts - your overall taper rate was too fast; it was not the result of a single tiny cut. The reality is that your daily dose will vary much more than this single 1ml cut anyway. Tablet doses are not exact, and your blood levels drop significantly between doses without major problems. It is your overall taper rate that is important. When you feel ready, restart your taper, but maybe at a slower overall taper rate. I can adjust your schedule with a new start date, from the dose where you left off, and at a slower taper rate if you wish. Just let me know.

[[or...]]

This is very helpful input to have, so thank you Colin.  It makes me wonder if pharmacy compounding is not as exact as I thought?  The 3 weeks prior to my starting liquid titration dose of 69 ml, I was taking 1 compounded capsule nightly, supposedly at .34375 mg.

 

Based on your input and from my reaction last week to 68 and 67 ml drops in dosage, I am now wondering what the true dosage of those .34375 mg capsules really were?  .35? .37?  Are you also saying that even for compounded capsules, dosage varies from capsule to capsule?  If so, I wonder by how much?

 

My crash last week seemed to indicate that, true to what you are saying, my body was experiencing an accumlation of cuts, thought I thought I was taking exactly .34375 mg nightly for 3 weeks straight prior to the start of the liquid titration taper.  I wonder what my 'true' drop in mg was from .34375 mg capsule to 69 ml (.345mg) liquid?

[[Co...]]

I would think that pharmacy compounded capsules will be accurate (or consistent, at least) than your standard pills. When your pharmacist makes up compounded capsules, s/he will will either use pills and grind them up, or pure benzo powder - it will depend upon the benzo. If use pure benzo, I would expect (although I do not know) that the compounded pills will be more accurate. Mass-produced pills are allowed a great deal of tolerance from their stated dose, but I believe tighter tolerance is expected from compounded pills, and should be quite achievable. If made up from crushed pills, then individual variances within single pills will be averaged out, so again a competent pharmacist should achieve far greater consistency with compounded pills.

 

You wonder what actual dose of you pills - don't swell upon this. The switch to a lower dose may well have a noticeable effect upon you, but unless the pharmacist is inept, there will be greater consistency within the compounded pills. You must keep things in perspective. We use titration to achieve a gradual decline in blood levels (a much smoother decline than can be achieved by pill-splitting), but the inevitable inaccuracies are much smaller than the variances in dose within standard pills, and much much smaller than the variation in your blood levels between doses. A batch of pharmacy compounded pills should be more consistent in dosage. Your home titrated dose will vary from day to day, but on average, your taper will be far smoother than pill-splitting. Again, if you can tolerate interdose variances in blood levels, you can tolerate the changes caused by the variances in actual dosage with individual pills and any small inaccuracies you might introduce in your measurements. Additionally, you were making far greater changes to your blood levels when you pill-splitting. The control you gain by titration is great, but you can afford to relax about it. We can stand a lot more variance than occurs in your or your pharmacist's preparations.

[[su...]]

 

2) Regarding your comment sugarlily, I would really like some input as to coping mechanisms that would serve as safe, practical and concrete things I can do to take care of myself while I am in that complete emotional overwhelm state.  You had mentioned that you had worked through such extreme states of mind.  How did you do that?  What actions did you take to get through it?  Any techniques that you used?  I am realizing that I don't really have any coping mechanisms for times that I am going through sensory/emotional overwhelm, and that is dangerous for me.  I tend to go the self-destructive route as a coping mechanism, and I would like to change that.....

 

I didn't have any coping mechanisms. I stumbled through it and made it out. That's all I knew how to do. There isn't an easy answer for this but I will tell you what helped. Find a place where you can relax and distract yourself. For me, it's my computer chair. I would just sit and scroll through ebay or look at celebrity fashions. Any menial task. It gives your mind a break and you're isolated from anything overwhelming. Magazines, books, looking through old pictures.

 

Walking helped me a LOT. It pumped serotonin into my brain and got me through a couple of rough times. If there is ANYTHING that might put more stress on your nerves-take it away. Vitamin B liquid works well for me. Your body burns through a lot of B vits when it's under stress and your body also uses B to process medication. My sleep CD works very well. 5-HTP helps me with depression.

 

I can only emphasize to you, that it WILL pass. Your mind and body are working through it. Let them. Think about what you'd like to do after you are benzo free. For me, I plan to colon cleanse, then liver cleanse, and then cleanse something else. Have plans for the future. They help a lot. Also, think of your thoughts as false feelings. They're just thoughts/emotions brought on by a pill. There's really nothing happening except your mind/body is trying to stabilize itself and it's a painful process.

 

If you need more things to do, I can list off other stuff. It's amazing what can bring you comfort, you just have to try different things. It does exist though.

[[Ki...]]

2) Regarding your comment sugarlily, I would really like some input as to coping mechanisms that would serve as safe, practical and concrete things I can do to take care of myself while I am in that complete emotional overwhelm state.  You had mentioned that you had worked through such extreme states of mind.  How did you do that?  What actions did you take to get through it?  Any techniques that you used?  I am realizing that I don't really have any coping mechanisms for times that I am going through sensory/emotional overwhelm, and that is dangerous for me.  I tend to go the self-destructive route as a coping mechanism, and I would like to change that.....

I got that feeling during my taper. It's a spirit crushing, devastating feeling and can be very frightening.  IT WILL PASS. I know it's very hard to believe these are not "true" feelings, because you are, after all, feeling them. But it is the w/d.

 

I watched a lot of old sitcoms that I had on tape because a lot of the time I was too antsy to read. Or I'd get online and look up all kinds of things. I think I drove my sister nuts by looking up old movies we had seen when growing up and emailing her about them. Old TV shows, old books I had read, you name it. I looked up anything and everything I was interested in.

 

I watched a lot of "mindless" silly type old TV shows. I have a few DVDs of Gilligan's Island and would just lie there on the couch watching the seven castaways plot ways off the island. For me, it was the perfect type of show to watch...I mean, it's difficult to even think of depression and Gilligan in the same sentence. I grew up watching that old show, so the characters were familiar, the music has always been very soothing to me, and I love analyzing how the writers came up with each episode. It sounds ridiculous, I know, but it worked for me. I watched old Alfred Hitchcock episodes online, sat up late and watched a lot of Twilight Zone, and the very comforting town of Mayberry on The Andy Griffith Show. I watched a lot of The Beverly Hillbillies, too. I needed shows that didn't have busy, crowded cities, difficult plots, or grueling work schedules. It was comforting for me to watch Mrs. Cleaver on Leave It To Beaver in her kitchen shelling peas. I also watched A LOT of I Love Lucy. That has always been therapeutic to me.

 

I know how you're feeling. It's horrible. I would wake up and that second in between being asleep and awake, that crushing depression would just engulf me. I'd get up and feel a little better. But I was terrified of getting that feeling again. I just kept telling myself "It's not a real feeling...it's a chemical feeling." Not sure how scientific that is, but it made sense to me.

 

I know I sound strange with all of my TV babble, but anything that would pass the time but not be scary or "too much information", was very helpful to me. I played computer games online. I even read old books I had read when growing up.

 

Just remember to tell yourself that others have had this s/x, too, and that it passes.

 

Remember, just because you feel it, doesn't make it true.

[[Be...]]

Walking helped me a LOT. It pumped serotonin into my brain and got me through a couple of rough times. If there is ANYTHING that might put more stress on your nerves-take it away. Vitamin B liquid works well for me. Your body burns through a lot of B vits when it's under stress and your body also uses B to process medication. My sleep CD works very well. 5-HTP helps me with depression.

 

I just needed to comment, orange8, that vitamin B's rev up symptoms for many people.  I stayed away from them.  Extra protein is good though; things like protein shakes for instance.

[[su...]]

Walking helped me a LOT. It pumped serotonin into my brain and got me through a couple of rough times. If there is ANYTHING that might put more stress on your nerves-take it away. Vitamin B liquid works well for me. Your body burns through a lot of B vits when it's under stress and your body also uses B to process medication. My sleep CD works very well. 5-HTP helps me with depression.

 

I just needed to comment, orange8, that vitamin B's rev up symptoms for many people.  I stayed away from them.  Extra protein is good though; things like protein shakes for instance.

 

I had the same problem with B until I switched to the liquid and I take a very small dose, smaller than is recommended and only with food.

[[or...]]

You folks are great!  It is very reassuring to know that so many others have gone through the same thing I have, and have come out the other side.  Thank you.

 

Colin, a quick thanks for a more in-depth explanation of the titration process as it relates to tiny variances in Klono blood levels from day to day.  Your assurance of the overall safety of the titration process provides comfort for me.  Thank you.

 

So, what I am hearing from both sugarlilly and kimba is utilizing the art of distraction.  Distracting myself away from those feelings with outside stimuli, as opposed to focusing more and more on the inner turmoil and thus (at least for me) falling deeper and deeper into my inner emotional black hole.  Super dangerous for me.

 

And yes, sugarlilly, per your offer if you have the time I would like to hear additional methods/techniques that you used to survive.  I need to figure out what would serve as a decent distraction for me personally.

 

Beeper, just curious, why is the intake of additional intake of protein helpful?

[[Ki...]]

So, what I am hearing from both sugarlilly and kimba is utilizing the art of distraction.  Distracting myself away from those feelings with outside stimuli, as opposed to focusing more and more on the inner turmoil and thus (at least for me) falling deeper and deeper into my inner emotional black hole. 

 

Yes, that is what I did. I know not everyone is going to choose to distract themselves in QUITE the manner I chose (Gilligan?! ), but ANY distraction is helpful. There were times during my taper when I just could not read, yet did not feel well enough to do anything at all, really. So during those times that I was only able to lie on the couch in the dark, I would watch those old sitcoms. Loud noises and bright lights were a definite problem for me so I was up late at night often watching TV. I remember certain programs or movies were too "intense" for me at times, so once again that was another reason I could only watch light-hearted type things. And the humor helped me somewhat.

 

Other times I felt I had to be DOING something, but still felt so unwell. That was when I would get online. Yes, I was just "sitting there" still, but at least it FELT like I was "going somewhere" or "doing something", even if just an online game, or a search for information.

 

I still get depressed, of course. It's not easy. Sometimes I read my bible, and sometimes again I look for things online, or I sit outside and read. But during the taper off of the Klonopin, that depression was different. It was more like a weighty "chemically induced" depression, not a "normal" feeling depression, if you know what I mean.

 

Hang in there! It passes! 

[[Be...]]

Beeper, just curious, why is the intake of additional intake of protein helpful?

 

  Sorry, orange8.  I meant to reply to this yesterday after researching it and forgot. 

 

I suggested it because it was suggested to me.  When I searched the site about it, I found that one of the early administrators had particularly recommended adding whey protein to the diet to assist in GABA repair.  I would think other sources of high quality protein would work as well since protein is made up of amino acids.

 

Hope this help.

[[Co...]]

Jana was a Moderator, not an Administrator. Jan was the Admin.

[[Be...]]

Jana was a Moderator, not an Administrator. Jan was the Admin.

 

  (That's two  today.  ). 

[[ha...]]

Hi Orange 8,

I hope your feelings are subsiding somewhat. I know how it feels to be so doomed. It's very distrubing. There were times I would wake in the night and be so sad. Almost pist that I woke up. It was like I believed everything in my life was horrible. When in reality it wasn't. I would get up and walk around and talk out loud to myself. I would go through each negative and say the reality of that. After awhile I would have to laugh because, the fear was so far off base. Visualization and meditation are also great. Sometimes if you get a guided imagery cd it can help you get started on how to do it, if you don't know. Our minds can certainly get us all worked up over the imagined, whatever. You do need toface where ever this is coming from, usually then you can work through it. You are certainly not alone in this way of thinking. But it does eventually go away. That I know for sure. It will get better! Kel

[[su...]]

I researched the protein thing as well and I don't remember(ya, we've all heard this one before) much but protein is linked to serotonin. Protein is an amino acid which is a pre-cursor to serotonin production. Something like that.